Prostitution

[Mr Endon]

Alright, two questions, one dealing with law and the other with ethics:

1) Should it be legalised and regulated or not?

2) Is it inherently humiliating?
Also,

[is it / should it be / can it ever become] possible to lead a 'normal' life as a prostitute?

[PoeticPassions]

One time I read an article about prostitutes in Amsterdam... a lot of the women said they enjoyed their work, felt liberated by it and found it as an almost emancipatory thing.

I think, to answer your questions, one would have to specify what type of prostitution we're talking about. The kind of prostitution that results from no other possible means, from drug use...the "on-street hookers" so to speak that have PIMPS? Then I would say that it is inherently degrading and quite awful... and can't see how it could not affect all aspects of one's life (psychologically and physically)

But if we're talking about the "high class hookers" (of the Eliot Spitzer variety), then that might be a different story. These women choose clients, choose the profession, and so on.

I still think that legalization might be a better option, with regulation. Because whenever you make something illegal people tend to do it more or in more illicit ways, etc. (look at examples of marijuana or what not...) I think Amsterdam might be a good example of how legalization of prostitution has decreased violence within this... or perhaps made it easier to regulate, oversee, etc.

[BienvenuJDC]

I am not condemning or condoning here...I just want to raise some questions...

Should a prostitute be screened regularly and be required to be licensed and registered? Should customers have to be tested before they can be serviced (since they have the potential to permanently disqualify a prostitute? Or should there only be State ran prostitution facilities? Should a prostitute then be allowed to discriminate against anyone based on any reason?

[Tsuyoiko]

I think it should be legalised because it seems preferable to the unregulated alternative. As Poetic says, it seems to work well in The Netherlands.

However, prostitution views sex as an economic commodity, and it troubles me that that view of sex could be misapplied. I don't think sex should be something we offer in the hope of getting something in return.

[Virgil]

I find it amazing how some people find a way to justify a lack of dignity and self respect. I can understand need and no other recourse to live, but I cannot understand acceptance of humilation and lack of self worth. Thank God that when in my life we were poor, we had the self respect to not lower ourselves. It's amazing how the bluring of shame and justification for dysfunctional behavior continues in contemporary life. But to each his own. The world is made up of all sorts of people. A natural stratosphere of respectability must be inevitable.

[Zee.]

Each to their own.


If they're going to do it, and people are, and people are going to go to prostitutes, at least make sure they're screened for diseases and nastiness

[amarna]

1.) I think prostitution should be legalised, since it can't be prevented. Regulation, as far as it concerns establishing enforceable working and security standards for the prostitutes seems to make sense, too.

2.) I cannot decide if prostitution is inherently humiliating. By all means I can imagine a lot of better jobs. Maybe it depends on the prostitute's disposition and motifs if she/he feels humiliated or not, and on the efforts of her/his environment to humiliate her/him.
Anyway, sexual harassment in the workplace should never be taken lightly.:D

[BienvenuJDC]

1.) I think prostitution should be legalised, since it can't be prevented. Regulation, as far as it concerns establishing enforceable working and security standards for the prostitutes seems to make sense, too.


This is flawed thinking...
Murder cannot be prevented...it can be reduced, but not prevented. That does not mean that we should legalize it. I think that you need to have a better logic behind your argument.

[amarna]

Murder cannot be prevented...it can be reduced, but not prevented. That does not mean that we should legalize it. I think that you need to have a better logic behind your argument.

Prostitutes don't kill others. Wrong analogy.:p

[blazeofglory]

Prostitution, and we see it from a socioethic standpoint. Society makes someone a prostitute and the same society, and ironically at times the same society labels them as prostitutes.

First of all I hate this label I condemn the very institution of society that renders many as prostitutes.

[BienvenuJDC]

Prostitutes don't kill others. Wrong analogy.:p

They do by spreading disease...maybe not intentionally!!

From the moral viewpoint, I personally don't see prostitution any different than the porn stars. I personally don't feel that it should be legal, but I personally don't feel that it should happen. Putting my personal feelings aside, I'm not sure what position is best from a social aspect, there are a great deal of questions that must be answered first as I mentioned above. If the law puts their stamp of approval on it, then they have to be ready to take some responsibility for the many problems that will occur (even if those problems are already occurring).

[JBI]

Legalized, regulated, and taxed. That way, it will be clean, safe, and profitable, and will keep out all the pimps and drug dealers, as well as reduce the spread of Sexually transmitted deceases. Beyond that too, it will generate a sizable profit for the tax system, that will, ultimately, pay to fund better programs and give back to society.

If someone wishes to sell their body, than it is their choice - all the government can do is make sure that it is done properly, and without violence or duress, and that it is monitored, and regulated, and taxed, as it is, hypothetically, a business, and should be subject to income tax.

[Mr Endon]

People, I've divided the problem into two questions for a reason. For example, I'm definitely for legalisation, because I believe it's much more 'life-affirming' to support personal choice (should there be choice at all) and to protect prostitutes from pimps and disease than to criminalise and further castigate women who live in such dismal conditions as it is. Ethically speaking, though, prostitution poses a bigger problem, though I think it's only humiliating because of our society's powerful stigmata/taboos concerning sexuality.

So Virgil, though I understand and respect your stance on the moral side of the issue, I still think it's possible to disapprove of something and still be against its criminalisation, if only for the sake of freedom and for other people's welfare.

Bienvenu, I've used that same argument (the murder analogy) in the marijuana thread, only to find out that, as amarna pointed out, it's a fallacy. Prostitution doesn't really interfere with others' freedom, much less in such a forceful fashion as murder.


Here's a reframing of my second question, prompted by Tsuyoiko's post: is the commodification of sex condemnable? Is there something 'sacred' in sexual intercourse that sets it apart from any other activity? Pragmatically speaking, how is it different from a job where your labour force is a commodity?

[amarna]

They do by spreading disease...maybe not intentionally!!

Making condoms obligatory, which is one of the most important claims of prostitute's organisations, is a good example for what I mean by "regulating working and security standards".

[JBI]

I find it amazing how some people find a way to justify a lack of dignity and self respect. I can understand need and no other recourse to live, but I cannot understand acceptance of humilation and lack of self worth. Thank God that when in my life we were poor, we had the self respect to not lower ourselves. It's amazing how the bluring of shame and justification for dysfunctional behavior continues in contemporary life. But to each his own. The world is made up of all sorts of people. A natural stratosphere of respectability must be inevitable.

That's a cultural assumption - different countries have different attitudes. Of course, during the middle ages, frequenting a prostitute was deemed less harmful to the soul than masturbating, so the church actually set up, and administrated numerous brothels, in essentially every city in Christendom.

Of course, we like to think the class problem has moved on, but the sense of degradation is purely societal - for instance, I am told the attitude to prostitutes by the general population in Thailand, for instance, is one of acceptance. OF course, class systems and gender issues follow, and that is somewhat tragic, but ultimately are preoccupations with "degrading", and "disgusting", and "dysfunctional behavior" are all relative. Many pornographic actors, for instance, love their job, and the fame and money - that too is societal, it would seem, with something like 30% of movies sold in Japan being pornos, and a billion dollar industry working out of LA, as well as countless examples in Europe, in contrast to, for instance, China, who has a strict ban on pornography, and prostitution to an extent, though, according to my friend, there are countless prostitutes working for what she deemed as a "cheap" price.

You don't fight prostitution by banning it - you do so by fixing income inequality, and setting up rehabs - legalizing it would merely just make it function - there is nothing wrong with it, assuming the women and men involved in the industry no and understand what they are doing, and it is gone about in a healthy, safe way, which, under the current system, it is not.

Whether it is unclean or not is irrelevant - there has never been a time when sex trading did not exist in one form or another. At least if it is legalized it will be clean and somewhat respectable.

[BienvenuJDC]

This is how I THINK about the issue, not how I FEEL. According to my Christian beliefs, I firmly say NO, but in order to answer the question that you asked, I have done my best to put my beliefs aside.

To respond to the second part...mind you I haven't gotten a long time to think about it...

I pose the question since I don't have a full understanding... To many men, it is JUST sex. I can understand that, but I don't totally agree with that, but to women it is more (again this is a generalization). I would have to think that there are psychological impacts that we as a society are not ready to deal with.

Actually Mt Endon, you cannot answer that question without establishing some sort of standard of spirituality (at least I'm not thinking that an answer can be obtained). If I believe that 'God' created the sexual experience for the man and the woman as a form of bonding, then I would have one answer; however, if you took a position that did not include any Creator that applied an intrinsic design, then you may have a completely (180 deg) answer. Unless we can set SOME sort of parameters, the question becomes too difficult.


Making condoms obligatory, which is one of the most important claims of prostitute's organisations, is a good example for what I mean by "regulating working and security standards".

Condoms only reduce the chances, it does not completely take care of the problem. But I understand your position...and murder is not the best analogy, however, just because we cannot prevent something doesn't mean that we should allow it.

[amarna]

BienvuJDC, I'm not fond of prostitution. But the world is as it is, and reality does not care for my or your ethical preferences. I think, if you can't remediate a social evil, you can leastwise try to manage it reasonably.

[Virgil]

So Virgil, though I understand and respect your stance on the moral side of the issue, I still think it's possible to disapprove of something and still be against its criminalisation, if only for the sake of freedom and for other people's welfare.


So be it. But you won't get me to support a politician that endoreses legalizing prostitution. What a disgraceful country it would be if it were legal. Shameful. It has been one of the major criticisms of democracy that the lowest common denominator will prosper. With the discussions of legalizing prostitution, drugs, and other issues I won't even mention the lowest denominator seems to be coming to fruition. I guess once we have removed the moral basis of society, then all things are allowable if you can get people to support it.

[Haunted]

2) Is it inherently humiliating?


It's my assumption that prostitution is not a profession by choice. If you ask a child what she wants to be when she grows up, there's a good probability you won't ever get one saying she aspires to be a prostitute. Most of these women have reached a point of no return, it's either do it or die. Some do it out of coercion—those being pimped out. Most out of desperation. Or both. At the end of the day it's not about humiliation, it's about compassion. It's sad. Take them as they are. It's not my place judge people who have to do what they got to do to survive because they have no other options available. The rest of us (we) are just the lucky ones.


[is it / should it be / can it ever become] possible to lead a 'normal' life as a prostitute?

"normal" is relative. I honestly don't know what normal is.

[Virgil]

That's a cultural assumption - different countries have different attitudes.

Well I live in a culture. You can live as an animal for all I care. I know of no country that legalizes prostitution today.

[JBI]

Well I live in a culture. You can live as an animal for all I care. I know of no country that legalizes prostitution today.

Haha, that's funny, considering your own country has a legalized prostitution zone known as Nevada, though, from what I have read, some of the legal restrictions in place are quite barbaric: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada if that is anything to go by.


It's my assumption that prostitution is not a profession by choice. If you ask a child what she wants to be when she grows up, there's a good probability you won't ever get one saying she aspires to be a prostitute. Most of these women have reached a point of no return, it's either do it or die. Some do it out of coercion—those being pimped out. Most out of desperation. Or both. At the end of the day it's not about humiliation, it's about compassion. It's sad. Take them as they are. It's not my place judge people who have to do what they got to do to survive because they have no other options available. The rest of us (we) are just the lucky ones.



"normal" is relative. I honestly don't know what normal is.

In a sense, though I know of no kid who says they want to be a bagger in the supermarket either. Certain jobs never have child appeal, unfortunately - doctor, lawyer, racecar driver or whatever may appeal, but in reality,there are always people whose job it is to do the undesirable things in society - is the problem really to outlaw it, or to try and fix the income inequality gap - generally the people who target prostitution the most seem the least likely people to want to change the system that creates prostitution in the first place, which is ironic - you don't get rid of something, something which has had a history in the world for the longest time, by outlawing it.

I personally would never frequent a prostitute, or a strip-club for that matter, but I am not silly enough as to say they should be illegal. There are, for instance, highly paid prostitutes who supposedly like their work - I think of most pornographic movie stars as such figures, though there are ones, supposedly who work the upper classes, and do not appear in films.

But what constitutes a prostitute even? Do we imply a direct transfer of cash for sex? Does it need to be intercourse (Bill Clinton anyone)? What about a gold digger, does that constitute as a long term prostitution contract? Our "culture" as a whole seems built around exchanging of favors for money, it would seem only natural that if someone can exchange their physical health by busting their back laboring, that someone can exchange their sexual favors for money, which often is better paying than manual labor to begin with. What about a girl who goes out with a guy because he is rich and buys her nice presents - what about a girl who goes home with a guy after he buys her a few drinks at a bar?

The only way to remove "prostitution" in this sense, is to completely outlaw it, and make breaking the law unbearable, which is to say, make premarital sexual relations illegal, or to, quite simply, remove the sort of economic plight that creates these situations, namely, get rid of material possession, and bingo - no more prostitutes (though perhaps people may run to the next town to raid women, as was the practice in pre-industrial societies that lacked senses of property).

[mona amon]

I know of no country that legalizes prostitution today. - Virgil

Legal or not, it flourishes all over the world like the green bay tree, so like JBI, I see no point in outlawing it. Legalising prostitution does not mean giving it moral sanction. it only means allowing (decriminalising) those aspects of it which are not criminal to start with, so that time, energy and resources can be diverted into fighting the genuinely criminal aspects of organised prostitution like abduction, trafficking in women and children, forced prostitution, child prostitution and so on.

[Delta40]

What standards of morality is it that men impose upon prostitution to make it acceptable so that it should be legalised? I mean there is a class issue here. The poor filthy prostitute who is good enough to service the lower classes in the alleyways is doing just as much of a service for that population as the upper class pro who has the elite clientele who can afford all the comforts of home. Despite the motives involved, why wrinkle your nose in disdain?

Broaden your horizons as well and consider the female clientele. The child prostitute who is there to meet the needs of men. What about the ethics of this? Is not supply and demand an equally viable factor? When is sex - the prohibited kind, which is half the excitement of the prostitute, really prohibited? In the minds of intellects?

Isn't the 'prostitute' whoever it may be simply the filthy dark truth of the base needs of man? and the issue of how to dignify that truth and legalise it, the all time challenge?

[blazeofglory]

Prostitution is man- made and in nature there is no prostitution. For society creates it. In point of fact all I feel is in nature it is taken naturally and there is no abuse of it.

And society is guilty of it.

[TheFifthElement]

I know of no country that legalizes prostitution today.
That's just because you're badly informed.

As I understand it prostitution is legal in the Netherlands, Germany, Greece, Latvia, Switzerland.

In many other European countries including UK, Belgium, Spain, Italy and France prostitution is not illegal though soliciting (advertising sexual services, running a brothel, kerb crawling, pimping and the like) is illegal. You can read all about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe

Bearing in mind this comment:

What a disgraceful country it would be if it were legal. Shameful. and this one:


Well I live in a culture. You can live as an animal for all I care

you must think we're all depraved 'animals'. Nice.

[JBI]

You are all assuming that all prostitutes are female - there is quite a thriving male prostitute industry in much of the world, and even a large tourist industry built around it. Jamaica, for instance, is considered a major destination for female sex tourists, and there are countless Kuta Cowboys (named after the beach village off the coasts of the Indonesian island of Bali) who are constantly frequented by female tourists = and that is just two examples;

But that isn't even the point - the language spoken in the Patpong area of Bangkok, for instance, is not Thai, but rather, American English - the only Thai people there are the pimps and prostitutes, meshed in around thousands of smelly American tourists. There is even a male-prostitution district a few blocks away, which too seems to speak American English.

In a sense, one could argue "no civilized country could legalize prostitution", yet the countries where it is legal, to me, seem the amongst the most civilized, whereas where it isn't legal, not only does it seem prostitution is as, if not more frequent, but a) the standards are lower, and b) the actual cultures themselves seem to backward, in both treatment of women as a whole, and in treatment of prostitutes. Compare, for instance, Germany, The Netherlands, Italy, France, and Austria, with China, Saudi Arabia (which has laws restricting almost every sexual act except that between a husband and his wives, and even that is limited), Burma, The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Sri Lanka, etc.


It seems, in terms of the divide, that the more "civilized" that, is, the better a human rights record a country has, generally, the more accepting of prostitution it seems to be. The reason, is, quite simply, it is not the State's decision whether or not someone is allowed to sell their body. There are exceptions, namely, Sweden for example, which makes it a crime to buy sex, but not to sell it, but on the whole, even countries where it is technically illegal, like Canada, there is still an accepted freedom given to prostitutes, as long as it can be confirmed to be their choice.

Of course, the problems really arise when the spread of deceases, and severe corruption are mixed in. But ultimately, regulation and legalization would simply remove those problems - a much healthier system, I would argue. It is a disgusting industry, but there are real people in it, and they deserve rights as much as the next person.

How many, for instance, Iraqi female refugees ended up in prostitution pens around the Gulf? Yet in those countries, it is illegal.


That's just because you're badly informed.

As I understand it prostitution is legal in the Netherlands, Germany, Greece, Latvia, Switzerland.

In many other European countries including UK, Belgium, Spain, Italy and France prostitution is not illegal though soliciting (advertising sexual services, running a brothel, kerb crawling, pimping and the like) is illegal. You can read all about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe

Bearing in mind this comment:
and this one:



you must think we're all depraved 'animals'. Nice.

Why flock to Europe, like I posted above, The US has legalized prostitution in two of its States, but, in addition, also has a significant portion of the world's sexual tourists in countless countries across the globe. So as for civilized country, there really is no grounding - in this regard, very few cultures are civilized - the only way to really remove prostitution, is to increase promiscuity, or to live in a police state.

[amarna]

The only way to really remove prostitution, is to increase promiscuity, or to live in a police state.
It can't imho be removed, but it can be decreased, for instance by funding educational facilities for prostitutes who want to exit the scene and for socially deprived women in general.

[TheInsomniac]

Refer to signature.

vvvvvvvvvvvv

[TheFifthElement]

Why flock to Europe,

only region I can speak about with any degree of certainty, that's all.

[The Atheist]

Oh wow! One of my expert subjects! There are some things I can be pretty unequivocal on, and this is one the big ones.


Alright, two questions, one dealing with law and the other with ethics:

1) Should it be legalised and regulated or not?

Absolutely legalised.

I'm not into victimising women, and as the enormous majority of prostitutes are women, I vote they should be able to use their bodies in any way which doesn't harm others.


2) Is it inherently humiliating?

I can't answer from personal experience as I've been neither female nor prostitute, but I do have a very good friend who runs a brothel and I am on good terms with many of the women who have worked there over the years. One of the women who worked there for a couple of years was a friend before and during her stint, and remains a close friend today.

On the basis of knowledge of this eclectic bunch of women, I have to answer (2) in the negative.

I think prostitution is often humiliating, but certainly is not an inherently humiliating occupation.

NB. I have never been there as a client, but sit and drink Earl Grey tea with the chicks inbetween customers. I know stuff about blokes in Auckland which would make your hair turn white immediately!


[is it / should it be / can it ever become] possible to lead a 'normal' life as a prostitute?

Again, based on quite a substantial number of cases over many years, I must answer that with a definite yes.


Should customers have to be tested before they can be serviced (since they have the potential to permanently disqualify a prostitute?

Can't be done. There are no instant tests for the really bad diseases.


Or should there only be State ran prostitution facilities?

Absolutely not!

It would drive the business underground immediately. You don't imagine a judge is going to go to a a hooker employed by his own employer, do you?

:lol:


Should a prostitute then be allowed to discriminate against anyone based on any reason?

Absolutely, as they are in places where it's legal.

A hooker may legally refuse any client at any time. And they do.


I find it amazing how some people find a way to justify a lack of dignity and self respect.

I'd love to take you with me to meet the women who work in the brothel and point out where they lack either self-respect or dignity.


Legalized, regulated, and taxed. That way, it will be clean, safe, and profitable, and will keep out all the pimps and drug dealers, as well as reduce the spread of Sexually transmitted deceases. Beyond that too, it will generate a sizable profit for the tax system, that will, ultimately, pay to fund better programs and give back to society.

If someone wishes to sell their body, than it is their choice - all the government can do is make sure that it is done properly, and without violence or duress, and that it is monitored, and regulated, and taxed, as it is, hypothetically, a business, and should be subject to income tax.

Yep, that's exactly how it works where it is legalised and controlled.

Fewer sex slaves, less gang involvement and a working - but very, very quiet - relationship with the cops, instead of the suspicion and avoidance in illegal situations.

Ask a cop anywhere; hookers are a great source of information, and when those hookers know with conviction that if they have a dodgy customer, the cops will come running, they can be an extremely useful source.


What a disgraceful country it would be if it were legal. Shameful. It has been one of the major criticisms of democracy that the lowest common denominator will prosper. With the discussions of legalizing prostitution, drugs, and other issues I won't even mention the lowest denominator seems to be coming to fruition. I guess once we have removed the moral basis of society, then all things are allowable if you can get people to support it.

Ah, the slippery slope argument.

What you need to do is put those comments into the perspective of homosexuals. I still hear the exact same comments about gay marriage - it will destroy morality! Even India has now legalised gay love and the world isn't about to end. I think your view on prostitution is more about doctrine than facts. It is a victimless crime, and really has little to do with general morality.

We've had prostitution for thousands of years and civilisation hasn't died off yet. We haven't descended into anarchy for more than short periods, and it's been shown time and time again that postitution doesn't increase after legalisation.


It's my assumption that prostitution is not a profession by choice.


Like most assumptions, it would be wrong.


Well I live in a culture. You can live as an animal for all I care. I know of no country that legalizes prostitution today.

Now you do!

I see they've given the namby-pamby, pseudo legality of Europe, where you cna be a prostitute, but not solicit.

Compare that to New Zealand's proud history, where we are - I'm fairly sure - the only state where prostitution is totally legal nationwide. Prostitutes advertise openly in the press and on radio and television.

We legalised prostitution five years ago, and New Zealand is nothing if not the fairest society on earth. We don't tolerate crime, nobody is campaigning for paedophilia to be legalised and the fabric of our culture is not about to shatter.

Unlike virtually everywhere else on the planet, a woman can be a prostitute, protected by laws and the police, and offer her body for rent without fear of coercion.

I know numerous women who have made very good money out of hooking, entirely by choice, and I have yet to see one of the women at the brothel I know that could be classed in any way as a victim. The women there are the best bunch of women I know - great sense of humour, a geneuine camaraderie I've yet to see in any other workplace, and a respect for themselves and what they do.

[TheFifthElement]

I see they've given the namby-pamby, pseudo legality of Europe, where you cna be a prostitute, but not solicit.

That's not entirely correct Atheist. In most European countries prostitution is legal but soliciting is not, but in the Netherlands, Germany, Greece, Latvia, and Switzerland it is totally legal and regulated. There's been some suggestion that UK will legalise brothels, but if we find ourselves with a Conservative government after the next election, which is likely, then plans will likely be scrapped. Which is a shame.

[kasie]

This seems to be an almost totally heterosexual Forum :) With just a few exceptions, prostitutes have been referred to as 'she' (though one of the exceptions referred to women employing what used to be known as 'gigolos', euphemistically perhaps?) but what about the boys - are you goiong to legalise the rent boys? What's sauce for the goose, after all....

[The Atheist]

That's not entirely correct Atheist. In most European countries prostitution is legal but soliciting is not, but in the Netherlands, Germany, Greece, Latvia, and Switzerland it is totally legal and regulated.

I know, I was just indulging in some gentle Euro-bashing.

:)


This seems to be an almost totally heterosexual Forum :) With just a few exceptions, prostitutes have been referred to as 'she' (though one of the exceptions referred to women employing what used to be known as 'gigolos', euphemistically perhaps?) but what about the boys - are you goiong to legalise the rent boys? What's sauce for the goose, after all....

I did note that the vast majority of prostitutes are women, and that's why I've only mentioned them. Gigolos are a rare breed, while rent-boys are reasonably common. In NZ and elsewhere, ther can be no differentiation between male, female and transsexual prostitutes anyway, so while "women" isn't technically correct, it doesn't matter as all people are treated the same in the eyes of the law.

[AmericanEagle]

Prostitution should not be legalized because many prostitutes are forced into this profession. According to the European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control, half a million women and children from developing countries are trafficked to Europe each year. These women and children are often lured with promises of a real job, but instead, they are forced into sexual slavery. Legalizing prostitution would only encourage these traffickers and pimps because they would be considered as legitimate businessmen.

[The Atheist]

Prostitution should not be legalized because many prostitutes are forced into this profession. According to the European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control, half a million women and children from developing countries are trafficked to Europe each year. These women and children are often lured with promises of a real job, but instead, they are forced into sexual slavery. Legalizing prostitution would only encourage these traffickers and pimps because they would be considered as legitimate businessmen.

No, that's completely incorret.

Legal brothels don't use sex slaves. Legalisation helps reduce illegal slavery.

[Zee.]

Legal brothels do NOT use sex slaves as The Athiest stated. Sex slavery is not legal prostitution, and legal brothels offer a service of "legal prostituion"

[MANICHAEAN]

Is it not importent to consider the influence of "Fallen Angels" on the literary scene; after all, this has perhaps more relevance to this forum than threads like: "What are you wearing now" & "Counting down from 1,000" !
Writers like Graham Greene acknowleged the inspiration of prostitutes to some of his novels like: The Power & the Glory, The Hon Consul, The End of the Affair.
In "The Crimson Petal and the White" by Michel Faber, rich Victorian William Rackham marries the virtuous Agnes, only to discover that she has a horror of the carnal act. Eventually William's sexual interest reduces Agnes to a life of self-incarceration. He duly falls for an intelligent whore with a heart of gold. Researched or good imagination?

[AmericanEagle]

No, that's completely incorret.

Legal brothels don't use sex slaves. Legalisation helps reduce illegal slavery.


Legal brothels do NOT use sex slaves as The Athiest stated. Sex slavery is not legal prostitution, and legal brothels offer a service of "legal prostituion"

How would you know for sure that these women are not under the control of traffickers and pimps?

[The Atheist]

Is it not importent to consider the influence of "Fallen Angels" on the literary scene;

Never mind that, we can go all the way back to the bible as far as hookers go.


How would you know for sure that these women are not under the control of traffickers and pimps?

Because when brothels are legal, they are strictly controlled by the government to ensure the rules are kept and workers are vetted, medically and judicially.

Simple stuff. It's one the prime reasons why prostitutes and prostitutes' collective are so strongly in favour of legalisation - if you want to remove or at least restrict the illegal sex trade, making it legal and encouraging a working relationship with police is a hell of a good way to ensure the slavers are kept out.

[Admin]

Legalize it.

Prohibition does not work. We learned that in the 20s. Alcohol was illegal, so the criminals supplied it, growing rich on the profits, violence between rival gangs erupted into the streets.

Marijuana is illegal, so the drug cartels supply it, we've tried for decades to stop it, but use has only grown. So all we're doing is funding violent street gangs and terrorist groups.

Prostitution is illegal, so women who do it are immediately at risk for violence because they have to operate in the shadows of society and their abusers know they are unlikely to go to the police. It is so dangerous and unsafe for them. Of course as well, we've tried to make it illegal, it doesn't work, it hasn't stopped it, it has just made it more dangerous and made it more of a problem to society. With prostitution being illegal we're funding pimps, and human slave traffickers.

Why don't we attack the wallet of all these bad guys by taking their golden goose away?

[The Atheist]

Why don't we attack the wallet of all these bad guys by taking their golden goose away?

Exactly!

Nothing hurts the criminal element worse than legalisation and control. Not many crooks make money from moonshine these days.

[LMK]

There are places in the US where prostitution is legal...well, perhaps it is the houses of prostitution that are legal, I don't know about the solicitation part. There was a big broadway musical years ago about one of them, The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas, the music wasn't too bad, if I remember correctly.

If it is not illegal to have sex without a marriage contract then why pick nits about whether they had an expensive dinner first, too many drinks at the bar or money exchanged on the street?

[Dark Lady]

I agree with many of the comments so far. Leagalise it. Definately.

It is known as the oldest profession for a reason. It will not go away because we try to criminalise it. And there is no reason for it to be illegal in the first place. In terms of my personal feelings on it, they are irrelavant; all that is relevant is to ask why it should be made illegal. Most of the reasons given are to do with awful aspects such as mistreatment of women and child prostitution. As others have pointed out, the best way to tackle these issues is to make prostitution legal so that it is harder for the really nasty aspects to be hidden.

[Mathor]

1. As was said above, if prostitution were made legal then the shady pimps and crack whore prostitutes would go out of business, and the more legit prostitution circles would come about. Dealing with mistreatment and stuff, that person would have legal rights under the law and all parties could take any of them to court.

Also, at least in the case of the American government, there would be many laws dealing with:

Testing of STD's (and most likely this would come from simple medical records being faxed to the place, and just a simple self test at some point before the act of sex, on the part of the customer. And, as it is the same for porn stars upon hiring, testing for the prostitutes as well. Obviously this never eliminates all of them, but it is certainly efficient.



2. On the part of humiliation, I think it's necessary to understand that in America one of the largest media businesses revolves around pornography, and with people who probably couldnt care less if they are humiliated or not. America houses the largest corporations for porn in the world, and many come here simply to make it big in that industry. And some of these stars, i'm sure, get turned on by this sort of humiliation in some sort of fashion. Legal prostitution allows for these people to make MORE money running a legit escort service. Having sex with one person and no one seeing it is certainly less humiliating then millions of videos being displayed of you worldwide performing sexual acts.

[Nightshade]

I have to say I am all for legalisation, its not going away, its known as the world's oldest profession for a reason. and I have to say I kind of object to knowing people are making money and not paying taxes on it. Plus I do think it would also reducce some of the human trafficing. Then again alot of the realy nasty human trafficing would still be going on becasue obvious child sex realted stuff is NEVER going to be leagl or at least SHOULD never be. But if we know more about the human trafficing moving then maybe it would be easier to find the people dealing in children?
Just a thought.

[LMK]

OK, it's settled then, correct?

So, who will take charge of writing this up and sending it to the floor of the House?

I apologize if that sounds flip, and perhaps it was, and this is a serious discussion.

So let me amend my comment to include that sometimes I think it is better not to legalize or illegalize a thing, but to remove legislation about it entirely. Kind of like not putting a foot path in right away, but watching where people walk and then deciding which is the best, safest most effective path.

~L

[ktm5124]

I am against legalizing prostitution.

I think there is something sacred about human intimacy, between any two people, and that the practice of prostitution violates this thing that is sacred. It violates it because prostitution is a hired intimacy, a unilateral relationship; it is not a sought-after and consensual relationship formed for the sake of intimacy itself. To legalize prostitution would send the message to society that such endeavors are not our ideal, and would leave the persons involved in such a practice without the guilty conscience of having acted counter to a human ideal.

You may ask, who is the legislator to say that one is to accord himself with the human ideals, when to act otherwise injures none other than the person himself? Who is the legislator to impose that condition on one's freedom?

The legislator would answer, who are you to use the microwave, to reheat your leftover chicken parmesan? You did not invent the microwave; you did not formulate the physics or engineer the devices. Your microwave is a gift from civilization; you are indebted to humanity.

Part of this debt is to pursue the few principles that have founded civilization. One of them is the pursuit of intimacy, the bonds that have made us a collective, a culture, a State. And, as I have already said, prostitution runs against this principle.

I think sex is a proof of intimacy. It makes a feeling into a fact. In the same way, law is a proof of morality. It makes an infraction undeniable, and recorded by law. Without it we could wade our way through the grey corners of morality without ever transgressing the lines that shape it. This is why prostitution should not only be immoral, but contrary to our laws.

Of course, there is an idealism to this, but I think we should put the human ideals into play when they are practical. The practical consequence of keeping it illegal is that illegal prostitution is less safe than legal prostitution. It will never go away, and people will always die from STDs contracted from prostitution. But this is a risk people take when they violate human intimacy, and spurn an ideal that has given them civilization and the microwave. Society is not responsible for the consequences of immoral action. If we wipe away the consequences, making it perfectly safe to engage in prostitution, then the perceived immorality of such a practice would fade with time, and we would eventually remove a block from the Jenga of civilization.

[The Atheist]

OK, it's settled then, correct?

So, who will take charge of writing this up and sending it to the floor of the House?

Done and dusted here, mate!

Just move to NZ, the most liberal country on the planet.


I am against legalizing prostitution.

I think there is something sacred about human intimacy, between any two people, and that the practice of prostitution violates this thing that is sacred.

How do you reconcile that sacredness with one-night stands, adultery and drunken debauchery? There's precious little sacred about that kind of sex, or were you looking to ban that behaviour as well?


To legalize prostitution would send the message to society that such endeavors are not our ideal, and would leave the persons involved in such a practice without the guilty conscience of having acted counter to a human ideal.

Why is it "ideal"? Why does sex have anything to do with ideals? It seems to me that you're trying to push your own rather peculiar idea (and ideals) on what sex should be, and it isn't so much ideal as unreal.


The legislator would answer, who are you to use the microwave, to reheat your leftover chicken parmesan? You did not invent the microwave; you did not formulate the physics or engineer the devices. Your microwave is a gift from civilization; you are indebted to humanity.

Part of this debt is to pursue the few principles that have founded civilization. One of them is the pursuit of intimacy, the bonds that have made us a collective, a culture, a State. And, as I have already said, prostitution runs against this principle.

It looks to me as though you're just confused, because I have no idea what you're trying to say here.


I think sex is a proof of intimacy. It makes a feeling into a fact. In the same way, law is a proof of morality.

Now you're really confused, because law and morality are not related in any way beyond the morality of the majority being enforced as law. To me, it seems far more immoral to impose restrictions on what one may do with one's body than having paid sex.


It makes an infraction undeniable, and recorded by law. Without it we could wade our way through the grey corners of morality without ever transgressing the lines that shape it. This is why prostitution should not only be immoral, but contrary to our laws.

Unfortunately, neither laws nor morality are universal, so your attempted point falls to bits. Bigamy is illegal in the west, yet sanctioned under Islam, while adultery is not illegal in the west, but punishable by death under some cultures.


Of course, there is an idealism to this, but I think we should put the human ideals into play when they are practical.

You mean your ideals, because they certainly aren't mine.


The practical consequence of keeping it illegal is that illegal prostitution is less safe than legal prostitution. It will never go away, and people will always die from STDs contracted from prostitution. But this is a risk people take when they violate human intimacy, and spurn an ideal that has given them civilization and the microwave.

This is terribly confused. Science gave us the microwave and while I think microwaves are stupid, useless things, I wouldn't seek to ban them. Odd that you're able to see that illegal prostitution is more likely to cause harm than legal prostitution, yet you see banning it as "ideal".


Society is not responsible for the consequences of immoral action. If we wipe away the consequences, making it perfectly safe to engage in prostitution, then the perceived immorality of such a practice would fade with time, and we would eventually remove a block from the Jenga of civilization.

No, this is just fallacy. You're attempting to use legalisation as a slippery slope and it clearly is not.

[ktm5124]

I wasn't using the adjective form of "ideal", I was using the noun form. There's a difference. You twisted my words.

What don't you understand about the fact that we have a give-and-take relationship with our cultural inheritance? You may not care about the microwave (I do), but that computer you're using was inherited; you may have spent $1,000-$2,000 for it, but that is nowhere close to repaying the two or three thousand years of progress in science and engineering that went into its manufacture.

These are the things we "take" from our inheritance. A part of what we give back is love and affection for others, and reverence for the human capacity to love. But prostitution runs against this idea, in that it is a purchased, unilateral pseudo-relationship. People owe it to the world to become a good person.

[The Atheist]

I wasn't using the adjective form of "ideal", I was using the noun form. There's a difference. You twisted my words.

No, I have not. You can use "ideal" as a noun, but it's only an ideal if the result is ideal. You're the one playing semantics with it.


What don't you understand about the fact that we have a give-and-take relationship with our cultural inheritance? You may not care about the microwave (I do), but that computer you're using was inherited; you may have spent $1,000-$2,000 for it, but that is nowhere close to repaying the two or three thousand years of progress in science and engineering that went into its manufacture.

Sorry, but this is meaningless.

The history of science has got nothing whatsoever to do with the subject, nor does the history of morality.

In case you missed it, morality is not universal, so the idea of any "ideal" is simply fantasy.


These are the things we "take" from our inheritance. A part of what we give back is love and affection for others, and reverence for the human capacity to love. But prostitution runs against this idea, in that it is a purchased, unilateral pseudo-relationship. People owe it to the world to become a good person.

They most certainly do not. People don't owe anything - we are brought into the world through no choice of our own and we owe nothing at all to anyone, ever.

Instead of making up your argument as you go along, why don't you look at - and answer - some of the clear points I made. I'll repeat the most important ones:

In what way is a drunken one-night stand as morally desirable as sex during marriage?

Should adulterers be stoned?

If you can get past those couple of easy ones you might like to scroll up and answer some of the others.

[weltanschauung]

people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want regarding their own lives even if its damn stupid. what is it with all these preachers trying to drag a flock of sheep around, screaming "i have seen the light"; take care of your own lantern, people. if everyone took care of their own lives instead of trying to decide what everyone else should be doing, this world would certainly be much more civilized place.
the problem of this world started EXACTLY when one mighty dude grabbed a stick and said "everyone, listen to me, i know better". no one knows anything, and everyone is equally stupid. if you like prostitutes, go ahead and have them. you if you like being a prostitute, good for you. who cares, do whatever you want and be happy with the crap you chose for yourself, but just make sure that you were the one who chose it and not someone else. no one owns the right to judge anything, everyone is just as stupid and imperfect as the next person.
grab your prostitutes and your crack and be happy, whatever you want is fine.
just dont come into my hypercube and tell me what i should be doing.

[The Atheist]

if everyone took care of their own lives instead of trying to decide what everyone else should be doing, this world would certainly be much more civilized place.

Bingo!

You damned libertarian you!

:)

[Nightshade]

Bigamy is illegal in the west, yet sanctioned under Islam, .

Umm Atheist I could be wrong ( but I dont think I am- Im on about the semantics rather than the rules) but youve got it a bit wrong. Bigamy where by the spouses are unaware of each other is not sanctioned in Islam, it falls under the secret marraiges thing where by secret marraiges are null and void becasue the purpose is to let everyone know you are married-its why there is always so much dramatics about it in egyptian ssoap poeras because while legal in the law of the land they are illegal in religion law ( the visa versa also can be done) -. Anyway were was I . Oh yes Bigamy is a nono. Its Polygyny ( one man many wives where everyone knows about everyone else- and actually there is a fixed number. ) That is OK. And actually there is currently this massive debate going on as to whether really that was supposed to be a law applicable only in times of extrodinary circumstances but has been dragged on dilbratly far far too long.
:D

[The Atheist]

Anyway were was I . Oh yes Bigamy is a nono. Its Polygyny ( one man many wives where everyone knows about everyone else- and actually there is a fixed number. ) That is OK.

You're quite right, of course! (although the word is polygamy, I think)

[Nightshade]

You're quite right, of course! (although the word is polygamy, I think)

No Polygyny is right ( athough doubting my spelling is always a good thing to do!) Polygyny being one man many wives as opposed to polygamy.

OED deffintions

polygamy, n--1. a. The practice or custom of having more than one spouse at the same time. Contrasted with monogamy.
Chiefly applied to the practice or custom (more explicitly called polygyny) in which a man has several wives at once, but also including polyandry, in which a woman has several husbands.
Sometimes also used with reference to sexual partners rather than spouses.
.

polygyny, n.--- 1. A form of polygamy in which a man has more than one wife at the same time. Cf. POLYANDRY n. 1a.

[weltanschauung]

nightshade, whats with you and all the defense of misogynistic causes?
im foe-ing you.

[Nightshade]

What you've decided I am a foe? :lol:

hey I didn't say I was FOR it, I said that's OK in islamic theory.
Something like 78% of people cheat with in the first year of marriage anyway, so how is making it official any worse than accepting the fact that most people can't stay the course of monogamy? but that is an OT point when this is about prostitution.

Last year my flatmates and I got into a debate about prostitution and the point arose that in some case marriage and prostitution aren't really that far apart. When you get married you are basically officially promising to have sex with someone for the rest of your life m( or until you get divorced) in exhcange for other things. Or less sex realted you are promising to exchange certain thinsg ( security, patership, friendship, love whatever) in exchange for things in return.

[The Atheist]

No Polygyny is right ( athough doubting my spelling is always a good thing to do!) Polygyny being one man many wives as opposed to polygamy.

OED deffintions

Silly me, doubting you!


Last year my flatmates and I got into a debate about prostitution and the point arose that in some case marriage and prostitution aren't really that far apart. When you get married you are basically officially promising to have sex with someone for the rest of your life m( or until you get divorced) in exhcange for other things. Or less sex realted you are promising to exchange certain thinsg ( security, patership, friendship, love whatever) in exchange for things in return.

Marriage is a lot more expensive than hookers.

[ktm5124]

people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want regarding their own lives even if its damn stupid. what is it with all these preachers trying to drag a flock of sheep around, screaming "i have seen the light"; take care of your own lantern, people. if everyone took care of their own lives instead of trying to decide what everyone else should be doing, this world would certainly be much more civilized place.
the problem of this world started EXACTLY when one mighty dude grabbed a stick and said "everyone, listen to me, i know better". no one knows anything, and everyone is equally stupid. if you like prostitutes, go ahead and have them. you if you like being a prostitute, good for you. who cares, do whatever you want and be happy with the crap you chose for yourself, but just make sure that you were the one who chose it and not someone else. no one owns the right to judge anything, everyone is just as stupid and imperfect as the next person.
grab your prostitutes and your crack and be happy, whatever you want is fine.
just dont come into my hypercube and tell me what i should be doing.

OK, I am pulling out my trump cards.

"That which enslaves us all, vulgarity." (Goethe)

Matthew Arnold was fond of this quote. He believed that power could not be located in any one of the classes: he termed the working-class the Populace, the middle-class the Philistines, and the aristocracy the Barbarians. He argued that there are problems in making any one of these classes the ruling class -- the gist of it can be understood from his nomenclature. He argued, instead, that we must invest power in the State, so that it may produce the best self in all of us through the means of Culture. How did he define culture? He proclaimed culture to be the best that has been thought or said; it is the pursuit of perfection.

Now, I am not one to jump on the bandwagon -- a few years ago, I was quite a detestable, ultra-liberal atheist. However, reading Arnold's essay Culture and Anarchy has changed my views, and I have come to largely support his stance on culture and individual freedom. I think that legalizing prostitution will have a pernicious effect on culture, since law and culture are inseparable. This will affect all of us, not only the person involved; it will rob from the coffers of the collective.

Max Weber once argued that Protestantism and particularly Calvinism gave us the work ethic required for capitalism. However, at the end of his immortal essay, in a supreme pathos for humanity, he lamented the erosion of religion and foreboded the autonomy of capitalism.

Richard Sennnett, in his seminal work The Corrosion of Character, took this trend one step further than Weber. He argued that not only has the source of our work ethic, religion, eroded, but the work ethic itself, and the very thing we call "character," are quickly vanishing. He argues that the Fordist work ethic is being replaced by a new regime of flexible accumulation, in which risk-taking, chance, and simply being available to move to a new job are largely what determine success in the job market.

So you see, The Atheist, that the very religion that you renounce gave you your capitalist society. In fact, an extreme form of the religion you renounce -- Calvinism -- perhaps gave you your computer. While religion had its faults, it had some kind of culture to it, in which a work ethos and ethical discipline were thoroughly developed. While a return to religion is not the solution, we still need culture to correct the maladies of our time -- we need to take the good from religion and leave the bad. And people need the humility to accept some of these teachings as law, since, after all, it is the best that has been thought or said. Who are you in comparison?

By legalizing prostitution, we will only contribute to the maladies of modern culture, which Weber and Sennnett identify through their life-long research. We simply need something to teach us ethical discipline, because it is shown by sociology that when left to our own resources we, as a people, are too stupid to be disciplined.

Besides, legalizing incest is not a far cry away from legalizing prostitution. By weltanschauung's logic, incestual sex hurts no one so long as birth control (or sterilization for sure measure) are employed.

OK, The Atheist, now I will quickly do away with your questions.



In what way is a drunken one-night stand as morally desirable as sex during marriage?

Should adulterers be stoned?


1. Of course a drunken one-night stand is not as morally desirable as marital sex. However, let's make recourse to the Goethe quote: "That which enslaves us all, vulgarity". Do you think he meant all kinds of vulgarity in this quote? Of course not, he meant only those kinds that epitomize vulgarity. One-night stands do not; prostitution does; one is bilateral (however hasty), and the other is not.

2. Of course adulterers should not be stoned. The real question, of course, that you do not respect me enough to ask, is whether adultery should be illegal. As I said before, prostitution epitomizes vulgarity; adultery does not. Furthermore, a marriage is a complex relationship and adultery a complex consequence; prostitution, on the other hand, is a simple degradation. Lastly, a law against adultery would be impractical and impossible to enforce.

[Nightshade]

I would like to remind people to respect everyone’s opinions and beliefs. The purpose of this thread is not to criticise individual posters, posts or opinions but to discuss the matter at hand, i.e. Prostitution. Further infringement of forum rules (http://174.133.97.227/forums/announcement.php?f=9)will lead to the deletion of posts and/or the closing of this thread without further warning.
Thank you and have a nice day,
Nightshade

[The Atheist]

Thank you and have a nice day,
Nightshade

Good point.

Given the direction of the thread, I'll just restructure my other posts to finish up with this, which is the nub of the problem:


As I said before, prostitution epitomizes vulgarity; ....

This is subjective opinion only and I don't agree with it at all. It's simply an a priori assumption, based on a morality I have no wish to embrace. As it's the cornerstone of your argument, there's nothing else to discuss.

[Nightshade]

Ok I have a point: Prostitution is known as the world's oldest profession, right?
SO Does anyone belive it can be irradicated? Should it be? Does it in fact provide a vital role to society though many may find it distasteful?
I dont know the answers they are just question points that came to mind.
:D

[Taliesin]

Max Weber once argued that Protestantism and particularly Calvinism gave us the work ethic required for capitalism. However, at the end of his immortal essay, in a supreme pathos for humanity, he lamented the erosion of religion and foreboded the autonomy of capitalism.

Richard Sennnett, in his seminal work The Corrosion of Character, took this trend one step further than Weber. He argued that not only has the source of our work ethic, religion, eroded, but the work ethic itself, and the very thing we call "character," are quickly vanishing. He argues that the Fordist work ethic is being replaced by a new regime of flexible accumulation, in which risk-taking, chance, and simply being available to move to a new job are largely what determine success in the job market.

So you see, The Atheist, that the very religion that you renounce gave you your capitalist society. In fact, an extreme form of the religion you renounce -- Calvinism -- perhaps gave you your computer. While religion had its faults, it had some kind of culture to it, in which a work ethos and ethical discipline were thoroughly developed. While a return to religion is not the solution, we still need culture to correct the maladies of our time -- we need to take the good from religion and leave the bad. And people need the humility to accept some of these teachings as law, since, after all, it is the best that has been thought or said. Who are you in comparison?

By legalizing prostitution, we will only contribute to the maladies of modern culture, which Weber and Sennnett identify through their life-long research. We simply need something to teach us ethical discipline, because it is shown by sociology that when left to our own resources we, as a people, are too stupid to be disciplined.

Besides, legalizing incest is not a far cry away from legalizing prostitution. By weltanschauung's logic, incestual sex hurts no one so long as birth control (or sterilization for sure measure) are employed.


.

You know, I am just substituting prostitution with homosexuality in your post, and you, sir/madam, creep me out.
Also, Calvinism is responsible for a terrible anti-humanistic, masochistic, work-hating (yes, work-hating - by making work a punishment you take all the joy out of working) worldview. Occasionally I think that it is a curse.
I like to think that it was not only the god-damned Calvinism but also, for example, Humanism, Enlightenment, Positivism, Pragmatism etc which are responsible for my computer. So saying that if we start to go into conflict with the religious/calvinist worldview, we are on the swift course to hell, because that's the system all our society is based on is ignoring that we also have a bunch of pragmatic, humanist, utilitarian, rationalist principles that also uphold our society.

It seems that we have two camps here: "Sex is sacred!" and "Legalize prostitution!"
It just dawned on me that there is a wonderful compromise between those two camps, with a long historical tradition: Sacred prostitution!
It has a long tradition in Mesopotamia, after all, so why couldn't modern religion learn a bit and carry on the ancient and proud tradition of temple prostitution?
Inanna of the Hosts! Why didn't I think of this earlier? Quick! Does anybody know the e-mail of the Pope? I think I have an interesting suggestion to make.

[ktm5124]

You know, I am just substituting prostitution with homosexuality in your post, and you, sir/madam, creep me out.


I support gay marriage. I have gay friends. Some of my favorite writers were gay. I'm not against homosexuality.

A lot of what I have posted in this thread has been ironic melodrama ;) Everyone was arguing for legalizing prostitution so I thought I would play devil's advocate :) I am unsure of my real stance, though I may actually lean towards the position I took in this thread; if I am on the fence then I sway towards keeping it illegal. What I said does resonate with me.

And the "substitution" you made of homosexuality for prostitution doesn't work because there is nothing vulgar about homosexuality; what is vulgar about love? Even if you're not against prostitution, you probably have a low opinion of it, whereas you do not have a low opinion of homosexuality. These are the objective differences.


So saying that if we start to go into conflict with the religious/calvinist worldview, we are on the swift course to hell, because that's the system all our society is based on is ignoring that we also have a bunch of pragmatic, humanist, utilitarian, rationalist principles that also uphold our society.

I never said that. Where did I ever mention hell? I am not even religious, although I have a lot of respect for it.

I used Arnold's definition of culture as the best that has been thought or said. This includes all of those humanist, utilitarian, rationalist principles that you speak of.

The thing we can learn from religion, though, is how good it is at fostering ethical discipline. This is what I meant when I said "take the good and leave the bad". I think we should learn from it to create a strong modern culture that maintains that same moral and ethical discipline. Things like work ethic; kindness to your neighbors, peers, and co-workers; charity; strong families; appreciation for arts and education, etc.

[The Atheist]

Ok I have a point: Prostitution is known as the world's oldest profession, right?
SO Does anyone belive it can be irradicated? Should it be? Does it in fact provide a vital role to society though many may find it distasteful?
I dont know the answers they are just question points that came to mind.
:D

I'm pretty sure there's strong evidence that removal of prostitution would clamp a large pressue valve on certain sexual practices which would ultimately blaze into social problems. The link between sexual violence and availability of parn is now completely established, and it's not drawing a long bow to link prostitution with porn.

Knowing many hookers and the behaviour and sexual requests of their "clients", I think it's pretty likely, myself.


Inanna of the Hosts! Why didn't I think of this earlier? Quick! Does anybody know the e-mail of the Pope? I think I have an interesting suggestion to make.

:lol:

[Taliesin]

I support gay marriage. I have gay friends. Some of my favorite writers were gay. I'm not against homosexuality.

A lot of what I have posted in this thread has been ironic melodrama ;) Everyone was arguing for legalizing prostitution so I thought I would play devil's advocate :) I am unsure of my real stance, though I may actually lean towards the position I took in this thread; if I am on the fence then I sway towards keeping it illegal. What I said does resonate with me.

And the "substitution" you made of homosexuality for prostitution doesn't work because there is nothing vulgar about homosexuality; what is vulgar about love? Even if you're not against prostitution, you probably have a low opinion of it, whereas you do not have a low opinion of homosexuality. These are the objective differences.
I know, but any arguments against gay marriage (and gay people in
general) are of the type "it would destroy our civilization" (well, except the "it's against my religion" and "yuck" arguments which are just outright ridiculous)

By the way, I think I don't have low opinion of all kinds of prostitutes - I think that, for example, courtesans from different cultures do have an air of respectability and style.


I never said that. Where did I ever mention hell? I am not even religious, although I have a lot of respect for it.

I used Arnold's definition of culture as the best that has been thought or said. This includes all of those humanist, utilitarian, rationalist principles that you speak of.

The thing we can learn from religion, though, is how good it is at fostering ethical discipline. This is what I meant when I said "take the good and leave the bad". I think we should learn from it to create a strong modern culture that maintains that same moral and ethical discipline. Things like work ethic; kindness to your neighbors, peers, and co-workers; charity; strong families; appreciation for arts and education, etc.


Anyhow, sorry for misinterpreting your words, but I think I now understand better what you meant - did you mean that if we legalize prostitution, people's sense of moral discipline will weaken, causing generally bad things elsewhere? And that religion in general is good at maintaining that sort of discipline?
If I understood you correctly this time, I can't help but to feel a sort or Victorian thinking here - we're all morally upright people since we don't allow prostitution like those folks there but we still frequent prostitutes, only we do it underground - it feels like shoving the problem under the carpet. Of course, if the society has high standards then people can aspire to follow those standards but it also creates a lot of stress when people fail to do so and people become more neurotic compared to a more lax society. I think.



Also, we have the possibility to check whether the hypothesis holds water - Atheist, you seem to live in a society where they allow such things that weaken people's moral discipline - can you see any effects of it? Is the level of divorces, orphans, abortions, junkies, criminals etc higher than in other countries with a similar background?

[The Atheist]

Also, we have the possibility to check whether the hypothesis holds water - Atheist, you seem to live in a society where they allow such things that weaken people's moral discipline - can you see any effects of it? Is the level of divorces, orphans, abortions, junkies, criminals etc higher than in other countries with a similar background?

You can't compare country with country, but in the cases of Holland and a few Euro countries, now plus NZ, we can see the results of legalisation in the change of morals with the countries, albeit over a short term. So far, no adverse effects have shown up, and there is anecdotal evidence that crime is reduced.

It's still too early to tell for sure, but society hasn't shown any signs of falling apart. Holland appears to show some very positive results from their liberal attitude to drugs & sex, but proving the causality isn't easy.

[ktm5124]

OK, so I am going to approach this topic seriously (as opposed to melodramatically as before). The Atheist, I apologize for being a bit obnoxious earlier on. By the way, I don't mean to argue this ad nauseam; I have a continuing interest in the debate, especially since I am tentative in my position and could be swayed either way.

I think the real reason I lean against prostitution (partly outlined by my previous posts) is because I fear the effect that mass culture has on arts and literature. I think we see it already in how sky-high tickets to the theatre can be, compared to tickets to the movies. Also, we see it in the decline of popularity of poetry. I believe the root of this is that the tastes of society, at large, are not intellectually, culturally, and ethically sophisticated enough to uphold the arts and literature on a more popular level. I realize this is sounds a bit elitist, but I don't know how to put it in any other way.

I see prostitution as one of those things that could indirectly contribute to this mentality -- the under-appreciation of arts and literature. Much like pulp fiction and Hollywood movies, prostitution is a short-term pleasure; it might encourage the mindset of squandering money for such transient purposes rather than saving it for long-term gains. Of course, it is also far worse than these things I have compared it to, as you are selling not only your money but your body.

I agree, though, that one-night stands resemble prostitution too closely to draw a distinct line between the two. It is clear, then, that keeping prostitution illegal is more about setting an example and sending a message to society, than actually trying to get rid of prostitution or similar practices. We can set this example and send a message through education, as well, but I don't think that is sufficient; I'm not sure how easy it would be to incorporate information about prostitution in a school curriculum, in any case.

weltanschauung, I encourage you to reproduce your PM here, since it is a trenchant reply to this issue that I raise. I would like to hear others' thoughts as well. I think that I am now putting myself in much more concrete terms (now that I am being completely serious) in citing my concern for arts and literature and other such tastes in relation to culture.

[The Atheist]

OK, so I am going to approach this topic seriously (as opposed to melodramatically as before). The Atheist, I apologize for being a bit obnoxious earlier on. By the way, I don't mean to argue this ad nauseam; I have a continuing interest in the debate, especially since I am tentative in my position and could be swayed either way.[/QUOE]

Fair enough, taken.

Everyone makes mistakes - admitting to them is a bit rarer!

[QUOTE=ktm5124;757245]I
I see prostitution as one of those things that could indirectly contribute to this mentality -- the under-appreciation of arts and literature.

Two things: I don't see the link at all, prostitution is about sex & power and I can't see how it affects arts at all. On your basis, all short-term pleasures would detract from arts and we'd be banning restaurant meals, gambling and any forms of gratification.

Secondly, since it's been reasonably well established that legalisation doesn't mean a proliferation of bordellos & hookers, what's going to change? We've had prostitution for thousands of years, during which time the arts have progressed pretty well.


I'm not sure how easy it would be to incorporate information about prostitution in a school curriculum, in any case.

Well, in terms of education the link is that more education lowers STD and teen pregnancy rates, so it certainly works. Not sure teaching kids about hookers at school's likely to happen!

[blazeofglory]

This is a mask or a title given by society; and society is also a masquerade, a bunch of This is really a hard question to answer in point of fact. Man evolutionarily speaking seems a very self centered person and all he does even acts of charity is not out of benevolence or altruism or philanthropy for that matter.

Every act of religious duty is motivated or instigated by a desire of securing a place in heaven, another world of luxury or sumptuousness or anything we do in the name of social welfare or philanthropy is out of the motive to earn popularity.

Then why is not man’s act is selfish ideas and ideologue or idée fixe. Prostitution is a tag on persons. Every one of us is sneakily a prostitute, as we have glands of sex that secrets sexual hormone. It is totally a biological content, and we kind of philosophizing or moralizing the issue.
In fact man evolutionarily an animal and we through books of religions is divinizing or giving man a status that is higher than animals.