Every Jew is secretly a little bit in love

[PrinceMyshkin]

You cut away a third of us, Mr. Hitler,
but the remnant
will expand
to incorporate the genius
and, yes, the flaws
of the untimely dead.

Like a master surgeon
you wielded your armies
and all the instruments of state
to carve the rot
from the German body politic

History
has been slicing and dicing us
from the beginning
and we, and the world,
are tired of our kvetching.

To be a Jew
is never to be whole
but a remnant of the remnant.

Every Jew, I sometimes think,
is secretly a little bit in love
with Hitler, who never lied to us.

[Helga]

good and surprising ending, very different from poems about WWII, at least the ones I've read... but I like it...

[MANICHAEAN]

Did God pardon Hitler?
It is His trade.

[Delta40]

wow, I don't know what to say. he added more history to the history.

[MorpheusSandman]

This is a fascinating piece; especially in its conclusion. It really forces the question of the value of honesty, and even how that relates to how 'whole' one feels within their religion or background.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Did God pardon Hitler?
It is His trade.

Or perhaps more pertinent did the Jews. Poles, Communists, Gypsies, homosexuals and mentally "defective" murdered during the Hitler era pardon God?

Did the millions killed under Stalin pardon Him?

[MANICHAEAN]

Man was not created simple. But even if one cannot love, I see no reason to hate. During the horrors you mention, for that is what they were, too many sat and talked about man's responsibility & Free Will as if this was an excuse for everything (God's alibi?). Was evil made by man, or Satan, or God? If he made us in His image, then our evil is His evil too.
In evolution, sometimes whole generations of men slip backwards to the beasts. It is a long struggle and a long suffering evolution. Presumably God is suffering the same evolution, but perhaps with more pain.
Please do not think that I am being anti-semitic or anti anything. Its just that moral theology is the bugbear of every seminary. You learn the rules and then find they invariably dont apply to any human case.

[qimissung]

I, too, am taken by the ending. The lot of the outcast is never easy; I like that you point out the usually unacknowledged and intimate bond between bully and victim. But the aching part of your poem is the one before, "To be a Jew is to never be whole, but to be a remnant of the remnant..."

[jikan myshkin]

wow, i love that. are you, yourself jewish mr myshkin? one of my great regrets is once in school we were able to go to the local holocaust centre and after the tour speak to a camp survior and my innane 13/14 year old question was 'did you hate hitler from the start' to which she replied 'yes'

[JacobF]

I really like the metaphor of Hitler as a surgeon because of it's haunting accuracy. When he came into power he was revered as a savior, someone who would heal Germany's economic blight. Then he betrayed not only the German's but the world's trust, using his power to push his anti-semitic agenda, and the world didn't even realize it because they were so spellbound by him. Just like a surgeon who anesthetizes a patient then destroys their insides with a scalpel, precisely and without the patient knowing. At least, that's what I seemed to interpret it as.

In general the poem has an air of satire about it, shown by the line "the world is tired of our kvetching" and the addressing of "Mr. Hitler," yet it comes off as sincere and true.

[jikan myshkin]

I come to you now master
With a fresh bouquet of ash and gold fillings
That was sold to me as a fertilizer for my dreams
Of a unified nation
The cost was never explained to me
The label said ‘the end always justifies the means’
Could this be true? Could the world be saved?
I know you tried your hardest
But were thwarted by a lack of courage
‘One of the greatest socialist leaders’
Is what the burnt texts did say
The ones that anticipated your victory
But I am not a gypsy
And I am not a Jew
I am one who cried when I heard the game was through
So now I join in the line of children who dare to dream
And present you with this humble bouquet of ash and gold fillings
You, leader of the people, Hitler thy name

[HAPPY-DAY]

Coming to know great men is not a fantasy,rather an edge into what is noble and right.Though generations come and go with abilities attached with those that come with it,I believe that life is what one make of it based on inclination and exposure-either adaptation or experience.I give thanks to generation that brought me and would aspire to be like them.Ndukwe

[Virgil]

I do think this a remarkable poem Prince, not the least for its psychological insight. And the profoundity of it really does grap me in the gut. The word "remnant" takes on an incredible power. When a word seems to grow in meaning through the poem you know you have a winner of a piece. The first and last two stanzas are absolutely top notch, as good anything published by any major poet. I do have reservations about the second and third stanzas though. They echo with cliches: "instruments of state," "wieliding of armies," "slicing and dicing." Actually the second one nears a mixed metaphor that is somewhat confusing: surgeon intertwined with wielding armies. I like the surgeon metaphor and it gives justification to and softens the "slicing and dicing" phrase. I guess as I'm thinking out loud here, it's really the second stanza, the weilding of armies and instruments of state that rings off for me. Perhaps some tweaking on that second stanza might make this poem perfect. But whatever you do, it is a fine work.

[Lynne50]

Prince, I loved this poem too. Virgil When I read the line...
Like a surgeon you wielded your armies and all the instruments of state...what came to my mind, was an operating room with all the gruesome instruments lined up on the tray just like an army troop in formation. I think that image will stay with me for awhile. What do you think, could that be a valid interpretation?

[PrinceMyshkin]

Man was not created simple.This statement of your belief is going to colour my entire response, because I don't accept that there is any satisfactory explanation, scientific or theological, as to how let alone WHY man was created.

The explanation that is premised on Genesis is already cantilevered out from some earlier cultures and documents. Did a "God" ever manifest Itself to man? When and where? Then, from the intial cantilevering we have a succession of well-meaning men and women - mystics or theologians - who extend that cantilever a little further and a little further... How many theologians can dance on the head of In the beginning?


But even if one cannot love, I see no reason to hate. During the horrors you mention, for that is what they were, too many sat and talked about man's responsibility & Free Will as if this was an excuse for everything (God's alibi?). Was evil made by man, or Satan, or God? If he made us in His image, then our evil is His evil too.
In evolution, sometimes whole generations of men slip backwards to the beasts. It is a long struggle and a long suffering evolution. Presumably God is suffering the same evolution, but perhaps with more pain.

Without meaning to offend you, surely there is equal reason to assert that God may be suffering a devolution in synch with our rush to destroy the earth as an habitation for God's creations?


Please do not think that I am being anti-semitic or anti anything. Its just that moral theology is the bugbear of every seminary. You learn the rules and then find they invariably dont apply to any human case.

I see nothing in what so you have said that would lead me to think you anti-Semitic! On the contrary, I read you as a thoughtful and temperate person, for which I thank you.

[Virgil]

Prince, I loved this poem too. Virgil When I read the line...
Like a surgeon you wielded your armies and all the instruments of state...what came to my mind, was an operating room with all the gruesome instruments lined up on the tray just like an army troop in formation. I think that image will stay with me for awhile. What do you think, could that be a valid interpretation?

Sure it's valid. I didn't read it that way. I guess it's suggestive of that, though not precisely stated that way. That would be an interesting metaphor if that's what he meant.

[JBI]

As a Jew, I can't help but find that offensive - it shows lack of sensitivity, or nay understanding really of the universal Jewish condition.

[qimissung]

Prince, I loved this poem too. Virgil When I read the line...
Like a surgeon you wielded your armies and all the instruments of state...what came to my mind, was an operating room with all the gruesome instruments lined up on the tray just like an army troop in formation. I think that image will stay with me for awhile. What do you think, could that be a valid interpretation?

If you don't mind my responding to your question, Lynne50, I believe yours is a valid and extremely vivid image that you conjured. I think it will stay with me awhile, too.

[PrinceMyshkin]

As a Jew, I can't help but find that offensive - it shows lack of sensitivity, or nay understanding really of the universal Jewish condition.

As a Jew myself, I well understand the offense you take - at the last stanza in particular, I assume? Where the original lines


Every Jew is secretly a little bit in love
with Hitler, who never lied to us
came from, I can't really say, but I tried to soften or contextualize them by inserting I sometimes think, so that the intuition or notion becomes in effect a bit of self-portrait.

It is the acting out of some desperate fantasy: that if only Hitler had known me or any other typical Jew before he launched his murderous programme, he might or would have seen that we were loveable. In that sense there is some kind of twisted logic here: Since one cannot, could not hate the actual Hitler deeply enough, perhaps one could go in a directly other direction?

[qimissung]

I come to you now master
With a fresh bouquet of ash and gold fillings
That was sold to me as a fertilizer for my dreams
Of a unified nation
The cost was never explained to me
The label said ‘the end always justifies the means’
Could this be true? Could the world be saved?
I know you tried your hardest
But were thwarted by a lack of courage
‘One of the greatest socialist leaders’
Is what the burnt texts did say
The ones that anticipated your victory
But I am not a gypsy
And I am not a Jew
I am one who cried when I heard the game was through
So now I join in the line of children who dare to dream
And present you with this humble bouquet of ash and gold fillings
You, leader of the people, Hitler thy name


Germany, as seen through the eyes of one of Hitler's Youth.

[AuntShecky]

The second and third stanzas --"strophes" -- are by far superior, but the verse as a whole is quite good, and, as always in all of your pieces, thought-provoking.

Your speaker --and I believe--you, yourself are such forgiving souls that a little bit of a less negative view toward the inexplicably-respectful term "Mr." Hitler sneaks in. But I wonder, sometimes, that amid our society's need and sincere wish to be compassionate, we might sometimes go overboard in our quest to be forgiving. This
villain may or may not find forgiveness from a being removed from this deeply-flawed world.

When I read this I thought of something I read years ago -(-where? Maybe in Gibbon ) in which he says one of the failings of the post-Christian, all-inclusive Roman Empire was that it "suffered from an excess of open-mindedness."

In any event, your piece, as always, provokes much thought and discussion. That's one of the things the best of contemporary literature should do!

[MANICHAEAN]

I think actually in the bulk of this discussion that we are in agreement.
1. How or why man was created cannot be ascertained in a definitive manner from history/theology unless one assumes a totally blind acceptace of that laid down in Scripture.
2. The argument based upon cause/effect reaction leading to the conclusion of an initial cause of Creation, of which I'm sure you are familiar, is a bit too obtuse & cold blooded for my taste.
3. So I've given up trying to reason it, but quietly accept a faith within myself based on feeling & instinct? Is there a North-West Passage to the spiritual world?
4. Thanks for the point on "devolution". One of the variables I missed.
Best regards.

[PrinceMyshkin]

To all those who previously read this: please note that I've made a change to the end-lines.

[acdouglas92]

Prince, I must admit this is a hell of a poem...well done. I'd love to see your perspective on it, but mine is as follows:

Hitler originally proclaimed that he would wipe the blight of depression from the German economy, when instead, he ended up attempting to wipe the self-proclaimed blight of the non-Germans from the rest of the world. I love the satire in this one, it's really quite striking how you address him as "Mr. Hitler". Really well done, I'll be back to comment more on this, but that's all that my perplexed mind could come up with at the moment.

Again, well done!

[Virgil]

To all those who previously read this: please note that I've made a change to the end-lines.

Ok, I happen to like the previous version better, but I understand the change. The original I think was better poetry and really more psychologically penetrating. For me "secretly in love" with Hitler suggests the the sort of passivity from the Jewish community at large that occured during the halocaust, while "secretly in awe" suggests to me a desire to replicate his actions on someone else. I wonder what others think.

[qimissung]

I think I liked the first version better, like a girl who respects a boy's brutal honesty; mainly it's the idea of loving Hitler, and the brutal juxtaposition therein.

[MorpheusSandman]

I also liked the first better. Don't shy away from controversy, Prince. I know many might read a kind of blasphemy into the comment, but I think that's only superficial, and more will be provoked to really ponder and penetrate the subtlety of the statement.

[Lynne50]

Prince,
I can understand why you felt the need to change the last stanza, but I have to agree with Virgil and Morpheus and say that I think the first version is more powerful. The last stanza, in it's orginal form is very thought provoking; your new version seems a bit watered down.

You know I'm one of your biggest fans, so continue to write with your own voice.. It's only a poem..people can read it or not read it... regard it highly or disregard it entirely. Keep your poems coming!

[blazeofglory]

You cut away a third of us, Mr. Hitler,
but the remnant
will expand
to incorporate the genius
and, yes, the flaws
of the untimely dead.

Like a master surgeon
you wielded your armies
and all the instruments of state
to carve the rot
from the German body politic

History
has been slicing and dicing us
from the beginning
and we, and the world,
are tired of our kvetching.

To be a Jew
is never to be whole
but a remnant of the remnant.

Every Jew, I sometimes think,
is secretly a little bit in awe
of Hitler, who made us, indeed,
the "chosen people."



This poem is really mind blogging. This interprets the profound truth of what Jewish-ism and how the world hitherto not ceases seeing it as a vestige.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I, too, am taken by the ending. The lot of the outcast is never easy; I like that you point out the usually unacknowledged and intimate bond between bully and victim. But the aching part of your poem is the one before, "To be a Jew is to never be whole, but to be a remnant of the remnant..."

Yes, the bond between bully & victim, and what I think has come to be called the "Stockholm Syndrome," these lie somewhere in the background of the closing lines (now restored) which, frankly, shocked and sickened me when I first thought of them (without the intended softening of "I sometimes think").


To all those who previously read this: please note that I've made a change to the end-lines.


Correction

In response to several persuasive responses, I've restored the ending of the poem to what it was originally. Thanks to all those who 'voted.'


I do think this a remarkable poem Prince, not the least for its psychological insight. And the profoundity of it really does grap me in the gut. The word "remnant" takes on an incredible power. When a word seems to grow in meaning through the poem you know you have a winner of a piece. The first and last two stanzas are absolutely top notch, as good anything published by any major poet. I do have reservations about the second and third stanzas though. They echo with cliches: "instruments of state," "wieliding of armies," "slicing and dicing." Actually the second one nears a mixed metaphor that is somewhat confusing: surgeon intertwined with wielding armies. I like the surgeon metaphor and it gives justification to and softens the "slicing and dicing" phrase. I guess as I'm thinking out loud here, it's really the second stanza, the weilding of armies and instruments of state that rings off for me. Perhaps some tweaking on that second stanza might make this poem perfect. But whatever you do, it is a fine work.

Thanks, Virgil. All of stanzas 2 & 3 were meant as elaborations of the surgeon metaphor, "wielding his armies" as a surgeon might (in this case) a particularly sharp scalpel. If I can come up with anything better, I'll post the alteration.

And by the way, I want to disclaim credit for my use of the image of the "remnant." It is a phrase that has long been used for the survivors of any mass anti-Jewish action and may be found, in other connections, as far back as "Revelations."


Prince, I loved this poem too. Virgil When I read the line...
Like a surgeon you wielded your armies and all the instruments of state...what came to my mind, was an operating room with all the gruesome instruments lined up on the tray just like an army troop in formation. I think that image will stay with me for awhile. What do you think, could that be a valid interpretation?

Yes, that is very much a valid interpretation. In fact, it'what I had in mind. Thanks for your sensitive reading.


I come to you now master
With a fresh bouquet of ash and gold fillings
That was sold to me as a fertilizer for my dreams
Of a unified nation
The cost was never explained to me
The label said ‘the end always justifies the means’
Could this be true? Could the world be saved?
I know you tried your hardest
But were thwarted by a lack of courage
‘One of the greatest socialist leaders’
Is what the burnt texts did say
The ones that anticipated your victory
But I am not a gypsy
And I am not a Jew
I am one who cried when I heard the game was through
So now I join in the line of children who dare to dream
And present you with this humble bouquet of ash and gold fillings
You, leader of the people, Hitler thy name

I hope one is meant to read this, as one of the respondents suggested, as being in the voice of one of the enraptured Hitlerjugend, and as such is is every bit as devastating as I hoped my own poem would be.

You might want to read "Death Fugue" by Paul Celan: http://mason.gmu.edu/~lsmithg/deathfugue.html

[PrinceMyshkin]

Prince, I must admit this is a hell of a poem...well done. I'd love to see your perspective on it, but mine is as follows:

Hitler originally proclaimed that he would wipe the blight of depression from the German economy, when instead, he ended up attempting to wipe the self-proclaimed blight of the non-Germans from the rest of the world. I love the satire in this one, it's really quite striking how you address him as "Mr. Hitler". Really well done, I'll be back to comment more on this, but that's all that my perplexed mind could come up with at the moment.

Again, well done!

Thank you very much. I'm especially flattered that you were struck by my addressing him as "Mr. Hitler." I couldn't have explained why I chose to address him that way but had a strong conviction that "Herr Hitler" or just plain "Hitler" wouldn't do the trick. There was something, I guess, in "Mr." that was meant to take him down from a demonic/mythic level and to deal with him on a (monstrous) human level.

[motherhubbard]

I'm glad you restored the poem. I liked the second version, but it lacked the power of the first. I can understand how it could be offensive. I wanted to tell you that I liked it so well that I was telling a friend of mine about it over the weekend.

[MorpheusSandman]

There was something, I guess, in "Mr." that was meant to take him down from a demonic/mythic level and to deal with him on a (monstrous) human level.Reminds me of the film Downfall which chronicles the last days of Hitler's life/reign (he's played brilliantly by Bruno Ganz) where he's portrayed, quite controversially, more human. I remember reading or hearing something about it which said "The scariest thing about Hitler wasn't that the man was a monster, but that the monster was a man."

[paperleaves]

taken by the surprise ending, jer, you have done it again...
gripping, the words ache still after you read them. wonderful

[Virgil]

Every Jew, I sometimes think,
is secretly a little bit in love
with Hitler, who never lied to us.
No question this is far better. Actually I hadn't really paid attention to that last clause, "who never lied to us." It really challenges the whole notion of the claim of sympathy toward Hitler. Aesthetically that little ending clause jabs at that supposed love of Hitler.

[qimissung]

Which is what makes it so effective, imo.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Prince,
I can understand why you felt the need to change the last stanza, but I have to agree with Virgil and Morpheus and say that I think the first version is more powerful. The last stanza, in it's orginal form is very thought provoking; your new version seems a bit watered down.

You know I'm one of your biggest fans, so continue to write with your own voice.. It's only a poem..people can read it or not read it... regard it highly or disregard it entirely. Keep your poems coming!

Many thanks, Lynne. As you may have noticed I did change it back to the original. I'd had those two lines (without "I sometimes think") for quite some time. My older son, a poet whose advice I cherish, thought it was already a complete poem but I was never comfortable offering it as such, and changed it to the softer version because I did and do still recoil from the very dark paranoia of the original. And one Jewish friend of mine dissented from my allegation that this was true of "every Jew."


I'm glad you restored the poem. I liked the second version, but it lacked the power of the first. I can understand how it could be offensive. I wanted to tell you that I liked it so well that I was telling a friend of mine about it over the weekend.

So good to see you back here! I'd love to hear in what manner you paraphrased this poem to that friend of yours.

[jikan myshkin]

Y

I hope one is meant to read this, as one of the respondents suggested, as being in the voice of one of the enraptured Hitlerjugend, and as such is is every bit as devastating as I hoped my own poem would be.

You might want to read "Death Fugue" by Paul Celan: http://mason.gmu.edu/~lsmithg/deathfugue.html

it is another perspective. one could see hitler as being one of the greatest socialist as socialism is about the people and his plan was to restore the glory of germany. obviously this is not my viewpoint as the means does not justify the end but if one was to take it as a perspective (the method aside) and see a man who promises to find work for his people, to restore the glory of a country then is that not socialism?

[PrinceMyshkin]

The second and third stanzas --"strophes" -- are by far superior, but the verse as a whole is quite good, and, as always in all of your pieces, thought-provoking.

Your speaker --and I believe--you, yourself are such forgiving souls that a little bit of a less negative view toward the inexplicably-respectful term "Mr." Hitler sneaks in.

No, my use of "Mr." obviously misled you. The man who accepted or instituted a particular way for Germans to great each other - "Heil Hitler" - would have expected, at minimum, that I address him as "Herr Hitler," and my use of "Mr." was meant precisely to make him an ordinary man.


But I wonder, sometimes, that amid our society's need and sincere wish to be compassionate, we might sometimes go overboard in our quest to be forgiving. This villain may or may not find forgiveness from a being removed from this deeply-flawed world.

When I read this I thought of something I read years ago -(-where? Maybe in Gibbon ) in which he says one of the failings of the post-Christian, all-inclusive Roman Empire was that it "suffered from an excess of open-mindedness."

In any event, your piece, as always, provokes much thought and discussion. That's one of the things the best of contemporary literature should do!


Reminds me of the film Downfall which chronicles the last days of Hitler's life/reign (he's played brilliantly by Bruno Ganz) where he's portrayed, quite controversially, more human. I remember reading or hearing something about it which said "The scariest thing about Hitler wasn't that the man was a monster, but that the monster was a man."

Indeed, that last part is the scariest thing of all! So much easier if one were dealing with abstract 'evil' than with a man, somewhat like you or me.

[PrinceMyshkin]

taken by the surprise ending, jer, you have done it again...
gripping, the words ache still after you read them. wonderful

Thank you indeed. The "surprise" ending was the seed that produced the poem, a dark, deeply troubling insight that had occured to me a longish time ago and was waiting for an appropriate place to introduce it.

I cannot of course authenticate the "every Jew" assertion in it and at least one Jewish friend of mine denied that this applied to her, which is why I inserted "I sometimes think."

[Virgil]

Prince, I wouldn't worry about authenticating the "every Jew" part. Obviously that could not be true and it adds that instabilty to that last strophe (as Auntie likes to call the stanzas ;)) that I think you really desire. I think you want the reader to question that last part. No?

[PrinceMyshkin]

Prince, I wouldn't worry about authenticating the "every Jew" part. Obviously that could not be true and it adds that instabilty to that last strophe (as Auntie likes to call the stanzas ;)) that I think you really desire. I think you want the reader to question that last part. No?

Your question is a fascinating one. I wouldn't say I wanted the reader to question my closing assertion but rather that (after the fact) I'm perfectly comfortable that they might do so. "I sometimes think" was intended to make the statement part of the persona's biography. If I prepared for it in any way I think that was by virtue of the use of "Mr. Hitler" which might be read to take him out of his historic context and represent him as a concept or caricature in the persona's mind.

To what extent, these days, can any one of us claim to speak on behalf of mankind or any portion of it? I've always been a bit envious of something Chekhov wrote to a friend of his, in which he expressed the wish to address his Russian contemporaries thus: "You live badly, my friends. Isn't it shameful to live as badly as you do?"

Although he did not say this out loud, so to speak, haven't many of us wished to address our fellow countrymen or co-religionists in just those terms?

[Virgil]

Your question is a fascinating one. I wouldn't say I wanted the reader to question my closing assertion but rather that (after the fact) I'm perfectly comfortable that they might do so. "I sometimes think" was intended to make the statement part of the persona's biography. If I prepared for it in any way I think that was by virtue of the use of "Mr. Hitler" which might be read to take him out of his historic context and represent him as a concept or caricature in the persona's mind.


Yes I think the persona is prepared by the "Mr. Hitler" and by the addressing of "you" and referring to "us".


To what extent, these days, can any one of us claim to speak on behalf of mankind or any portion of it? I've always been a bit envious of something Chekhov wrote to a friend of his, in which he expressed the wish to address his Russian contemporaries thus: "You live badly, my friends. Isn't it shameful to live as badly as you do?"
Yes, that's my point. No one can actually speak for a group of people and be comprehensive of the various opinions.


Although he did not say this out loud, so to speak, haven't many of us wished to address our fellow countrymen or co-religionists in just those terms?
I think I do it every day. :lol:

[PrinceMyshkin]

I think I do it every day. :lol:

I'd be most interested to hear any one of these reproaches, though they might better fit in some other forum. Come to think of it, we haven't seen a poem of yours in quite some time.


Which is what makes it so effective, imo.

The "love" I meant is the blackest sort of love, the sort one might feel when one has absolutely exhausted the resources of hatred. The sort referred to here:


"[Hate] has a lot in common with love, chiefly with that self-transcending aspect of love, the fixation on others, the dependence on them and in fact the delegation of a piece of one's identity to them... The hater longs for the object of his hatred...[It] is a diabolical attribute of the fallen angel...” A state of the spirit that aspires to be God, that may even think it is God, and is tormented by indications that it is not and cannot be. [The typical hater displays] a serious face, a quickness to take offense, strong language, shouting, the inability to step outside himself and his own foolishness." Vaclav Havel, at a conference on the subject of hatred, convened by Elie Wiesel in Oslo in August or September 1990. Quoted in Lance Morrow, "The Anatomy of Hate," Time Magazine, 17 9 90, p. 88

[AuntShecky]

[QUOTE=AuntShecky;745629]When I read this I thought of something I read years ago -(-where? Maybe in Gibbon ) in which he says one of the failings of the post-Christian, all-inclusive Roman Empire was that it "suffered from an excess of open-mindedness."

QUOTE]

Actually, it was C.S. Lewis. Sounds more like him, right?
sorry.

[PrinceMyshkin]

[QUOTE=AuntShecky;745629]When I read this I thought of something I read years ago -(-where? Maybe in Gibbon ) in which he says one of the failings of the post-Christian, all-inclusive Roman Empire was that it "suffered from an excess of open-mindedness."

QUOTE]

Actually, it was C.S. Lewis. Sounds more like him, right?
sorry.

Yes, it does. And then there's this quotation from him:


I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.

Which seems to me as much an indictment of his Christocentric point of view as it is a proud assertion of it. That is, every sighted person can see that the sun has risen and can see by it but only those who are already wearing Christian spectacles can see the truth of Christianity.

[PrinceMyshkin]

it is another perspective. one could see hitler as being one of the greatest socialist as socialism is about the people and his plan was to restore the glory of germany. obviously this is not my viewpoint as the means does not justify the end but if one was to take it as a perspective (the method aside) and see a man who promises to find work for his people, to restore the glory of a country then is that not socialism?

It has taken me a while to calm down enough to attempt an answer to this and I don't think I'm quite there yet. The best I can do is say that if you could ignore the sickly-sweet smell of burning flesh from the smokestacks of Bergen-Belsen and Auschwitz &c. &c., you might be able to note and praise the fine new Autobahns built during Hitler's time, the rebirth of Germany's armament factories and so on, but for how long could you go on ignoring that smell?



Wave your hand once
or twice in the air
to dismiss, with each wave,
a million or so brutally murdered Jews,
and again for the Poles (those untermenschen!)
and for the homosexuals,
the gypsies, the Catholics
who stood against Hitler,
the “mentally defective”
who might otherwise have polluted
the pure Aryan gene pool.

And if you’re not too tired
after all that waving, if you’ve cleared the table
of all that dust of the dead,
then we can begin, like the disinterested
scholars we claim to be, we can begin
to discuss the socialist achievements
of Herr Hitler...