How the Qu'ran encourages the emancipation of women

[Chava]

What, is your opinion of the above statement?

[Chava]

For reference, this is not a religious question, simply what is your opinion?

[Jay]

The little of Qu'ran I read didn't make me feel like it encourages the emancipatation women at all

If I haven't read someone's paper dealing with ... something along those lines if I remember correctly (ahem, and so not telling ;)) I wouldn't have even known the little I know now, from what I read it didn't make me feel like 'emancipation of women' and 'Qu'ran' belongs into the same sentence. But then it all depends on what you understand under 'emancipation of women' I guess.

[Chava]

in the 7th century, the prophet mohammed encouraged women to be equals of men, which was a revolutionary idea, compared to their primary status as units of trade in the surrounding tribal and patriarchal Arabian society. I'm an athiest, and i only came a across this while browsing for a topic to make a public speech on. It occured to me, that the modern interpretation of islam in itself is oddly not related to the original teachings. Today, women in Europe are still fighting for equal rights, in Denmark women only got voting rights in 1915, the prophet mohammad gave women the right to vote in 700. Somehow that is very thought provoking, since the wetsern world is so busy preaching about the imorality of islam, even though few know what they are talking about...

just an interesting observation...

[Molko]

It is quite interesting that you pointed that out Chava, as so many people overlook that part of Islam. And for your interest, I do agree with the above statement. From what I have read, Islam teaches that women have the right to vote, to recieve an education, to work etc. The sad thing is, the teachings of Islam have been somewhat distored over time - people place their own interpretations in the meanings to suit themselves, culture becomes intertwined in the teachings (like honour killings) etc. and people consequently fall short from seeing what Islam teaches. Sorry, cannot go into too much detail about my thoughts without this turning into a religous post :)

And I appologise if my writing is so incoherent. Ah, what staying up too late on the net can do to your brain :p lol

[Jay]

Just got curious and searched a few sites, it seems that islam women do have voting rights as oposoed to what I thought earlier, found a few things I'd like to read later... when I'm not packing, lol. Actually, after the finals are over I could read the Qu'ran. Thanks for bringing this up :)

[Koa]

in Denmark women only got voting rights in 1915

Italy ---> 1946 :eek:

I know less than nothing about Islam, today I was quickly reading some short articles about women that had troubles in Islamic countries and ran away, some of them after having been beaten or even burnt by their husbands... But one of them was saying that the Qu'ran doesnt really state that the women have to be submitted that way, it's just that those habits got into the culture, but it's not a religious imposing. So as Molko said, it has been distorted... i think it's a matter of fact though that in some Islamic countries women have no right to choose their husband or to choose weather to wear a veil or not, or even to wear make up or stuff...Or maybe this was Afghanistan before the Talibans were kicked out (naif way of saying it), I dont remember... But anyway, it would be curious to know what the Qu'ran really says on those topics.
By the way, I think there is a book of the Bible that doesnt have flattering things about women, like in 'some days' they are impure and shouldnt touch anything not to make it impure and such...(is this turning into 'religious texts'?)

[subterranean]

Should this move to religious text section, where it's suppose to be? :)


It depends how you comprehend the teachings...I see some Muslim women who totally holds the patriachal values based on some verses in the teachings. On the other hand, some of my friends are very liberal and stated that Islam doesn't hold back women to be equal as man in many kinds of fields

[baddad]

Some provinces of Canada allowed women to vote only since the 1940's. As someone who believes all people should be free, I cannot abide any text or doctorine that denies what is inherently the human condition and that which we are born into, one of the few things we may call our own. FREEDOM of our own lives!!!

P.S.....WHEN IS THE WORLD GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE HORROR IN SUDAN????????????????

[subterranean]

P.S.....WHEN IS THE WORLD GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE HORROR IN SUDAN????????????????


The world? Isn't that mean it include you and I?

Oh my, what do you think we should do?

[Chava]

Define the problem, teach everybody about konflict resolution.... stop electing silly world leaders, eliminate the concept of segregation.... there are vast opportunities...

[subterranean]

vast but hard....

[Jay]

Which means...

[Chava]

primarily? it means when and where should we all start?

[baddad]

The world? Isn't that mean it include you and I?

Oh my, what do you think we should do?

Speak out. Let your views be known. A simple tee shirt proclaiming your abhorence, an arm band signifying solidarity with those suffering, write to your member of parliament, stand on the corner with a sign that reads, "Stop the rape and slaughter." Protest at school, leave a message on the Sudanese Government website, send an email, do anything, something, but be sure to remember that evil flourishes in the dark. Drag the horror into the sunlight where others can see it and they will be repelled and sickened......and maybe they too will speak out, wear a sign, a shirt, an armband............spread the word and others may/will feel the need to speak out.......

These may seem inconsequential acts, pointless even, but keeping the spotlight on our own governments actions/lack of actions is the least we can do, keeping the horror in the light is critical to ending it.......

People have a tendency to ignore anything that is not happening right in front of them, or happening to them personally. Bringing attention to abhorent actions in other areas of the world is difficult, but not impossible. Media coverage can be used for good as well as for the disemination of disinformation. Pressure on the media to maintain an ongoing coverage of any given subject can produce a groundswell of support for just about any cause. Living in Indonesia as you do, you have recently witnessed the power of the media firsthand: the whole world agonized in Dec. 2004, along with your country. Attempt to put the media to work. Hassle them into covering events in Sudan. University newspapers have been known to support causes that later bled into the mainstream media. Every little bit helps.

Genocide, or what is more gently termed these days as 'Ethnic Cleansing' (sounds soft, like your giving someone a bath') seems to be an accepted practice as long as it is not happening in our own countries. Personally I find this disgusting at the least. What is more disturbing is the world's response to these historic and now on-going slaughters: inaction, discussions, political manouvering, facades of caring, words of condolence expressed but no action taken.........

Europe just celebrated the ceasation of hostilities in Europe 60 years ago. Yet forgotten is the horricific slaughter, the appeasement tactics that failed, the root result of ingoring the slaughter that everyong deigned to ignore or pretend wasn't happening.......all forgotten/ignored for more expedient political reasons. Afterall, it isn't their citizenry being raped, maimed, murdered, hacked to pieces......


*IIIIeeee.......ugly tirade ends here....*

[caspian]

Oh My God! Now I really need His help because I'm sure my bad English wouldn't help me to explain what I mean. Anyway: ya Allah!

First I must say that it was God not Muhammad (S.a.v.s) who gave women rights which were 90% equal of men's. I say 90% equal, because in islam men and women don't have exactly same rights. there's some difference. As men and women differ by biology of course God can't give them same duties and rights. It's normal. For me Guran is what God offers, not creative works of Muhammad (s.a.v.s). And believe me what you've seen around in islam countries they're related with Guran not more than 10% . Muslim must follow just 5 law; one of them is zakat. which means every year muslim must give 2.5% of his wealth to poor ones . I don't believe that they follow that, but they use the other right - the ability to get marry twice and more-which isn't demanded follow as zakat. they use it changing details. there's not temporary marriage which is allowed in Guran, but they can get marry for fun, for an hour or for four month. It's funny because it happens in islam countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran and etch and in legal way.

I often see Guran is being discussed like that. I need to share what I know about Guran, about the scinetific proofs of some ayats of Guran. Inshaallah I will open new thread regarding that. I think it would be interesting for you. I just need time. Because talking about Guran you should give 100% right information.

Regarding the subject: the fact that Guran encourages the emancipation of women is true. Actually for that period it was more than that. as before islam arabian tribes used to burry their kids-daughters while they were alive, it means Guran was rescue for women.

[Nightshade]

well I was looking for somthing else and found this thread so because this is another one of my obbsessions I will have my say!

Yes Islam originally freed (spellling) women in its teachings but the arab culture before that was heavily anti-female ( they used to bury newborn girls alive!)
Islam put a stop to this! As well as giving women the freedom to choose whom they wil or wont marry as well as the freedom to own their own property and to divorce there husbands (although this is slightly more coplex)

OO looks like Im merely repeating Caspian
:D
But I have a question whats this about marige and zakat? Marrige for fun (with the intention of divorce) is that haram?? :confused:

[smiling_girl]

I am an Indonesian, and moslem in Indonesia really gives liberty to woman :nod: . I'll tell you later, not now :):):)

[Sitaram]

How the Qu'ran encourages the emancipation of women

What, is your opinion of the above statement?

For reference, this is not a religious question, simply what is your opinion?


I recently read The Bookseller of Kabul, a non-fiction work about life in Afghanistan, written by a woman from Norway, Asne Seierstad, who lived with a family in Kabul for many months. I also read Reading Lolita in Tehran by a brilliant (in my estimation) and courageous professor of literature, Asar Nafisi.

I wish those two authors, both women, who lived and worked in two different Islamic countries, would join our forum and post their impressions in this thread, in response to your question. It would be interesting to see what they have to say.

The portrait painted by these two books is not a portrait of emancipation (my impression) but then, you would have to read them for yourselves, and draw your own conclusions.

I once saw a very amusing quotation, supposedly said by some ranking person in the government of France, something about, "That works well in theory, but not in practice." (Can't remember the exact wording.)

I am reminded of that famous sentence in George Orwell's Animal Farm, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (I am so used to hearing men called "pigs" that I get confused, sometimes.)

You know what they say about pudding, that "the proof is in the eating." We may examine religious scriptures, such as the Bible or the Qu'ran, or redacted oral traditions such as Talmud or Hadith, or the constitutions of various nations, and we may draw various conclusions about equal rights or human rights or leftist rights. Those conclusions are the "pudding" so to speak, a pudding of words on paper. The "eating of that pudding" comes in examining how those words are actualized in individuals, families and societies in daily real life. Sometimes, when we are too hasty in eating our pudding (not hasty pudding) we wind up with "a pie in the face" (like those slapstick comedies), or we simply wind up with "egg on our face" because we cannot convincingly support our opinions, and we have to "eat humble pie" or perhaps "eat our hat", if it should prove to be the case that the reality of daily life does not seem to match or live up to the promise of the reality that we found in those scriptures or constitutions.

I would like to add some more thoughts to this post of mine, during the coming hours, as my time right now is somewhat limited. I realize this is a delicate topic. Delicate topics have the potential to become explosive and disruptive and cause distress for moderators and administrators, which only results in threads being locked. So I will try to speak in a constructive and sensitive manner and provide various readers with "food for thought" which will be more than just hasty pudding.

It seems to me that women have been riding "in the back of the bus" for thousands of years. In fact, it is only during the past 50 years or so that some seats have opened up in the front.

http://www.lankalibrary.com/pol/sirimavo.htm



Mrs Sirimavo Bandaranaike, widow of Ceylon's assassinated prime minister Solomon Bandaranaike, has been elected the world's first woman prime minister.

Her Sri Lanka Freedom Party won a resounding victory in the general election taking 75 out of 150 seats.

Mrs Bandaranaike only entered politics after her husband was shot by an extremist Buddhist on 26 September 1959.


Whenever we start bandying the word "equality" about, we aren't really being totally honest, are we? We aren't simply talking about the freedom of sitting anywhere in the bus. We are talking about getting the chance to drive the bus, occasionally, and to invent the bus, and to sell the bus. When we begin to speak of equality, we begin to traffic in a host of controlled substances; hegemony, empowerment, honor, glory, wealth, and all those other heady intoxicating mind-altering things which are sometimes locked up and heavily guarded. When we yearn for equality, what we really want is a crack at leadership and the hope of exercising authority.

"Emancipation" implies some previous state of imprisonment or bondage. We speak of "the emancipation of slaves." Let's pretend that you are someone who has lain for hundreds of years cruelly bound by rusted barbed wire, such that the slightest attempt at movement is agonizing. Now I, the great, heroic Sitaram (but you may simply call me Liberator), come along, place a chain about your ankle, cut away all that nasty barbed wire, and proclaim "You are liberated!" You seem very happy indeed. The chain is an incredibly long chain, and no ordinary chain, but made of solid gold, and it glitters and sparkles with your every movement. One day, you notice the chain, when you for the first time attempt to move beyond its limiting length, and you come to me, inquiringly. I explain to you, "Well, you are free now, aren't you? You are far more free that you were for centuries. You certainly don't expect to be totally free, now do you?"

I once asked an Imam why it was necessary for Muhammad to marry NINE wives. The explanation that I received was that they needed protection, for those times were very dangerous, and the only manner in which Mohammad could protect them was to marry them. In the Qu'ran, I forget the exact Surah now, there is a passage in which it is explained that the wives of Muhammad are the mothers of all Muslims and it would be an outrage if anyone were to marry one of Muhammad's wives after his death, since, in effect, they would be marrying their own mother! I was curious why women needing the protection of marriage would now no longer require protection as widows. Apparently, Kadijah's status as widow did not present any impediment to her marriage with Mohammad (and by the way, it was Kadijah who did the proposing, which is already fairly emancipated in my book).

Kadijah, the first wife of Mohammad, a widow herself, is credited with the honor of being the very first person to follow Mohammad as a Prophet, the very first Muslim. Tradition tells us that Mohammad was quite perplexed when the angel Gabreel first appeared to him in the cave. Mohammad related the wondrous experience to Kadijah and asked her if she thought him a madman, or in fact really a prophet. Kadijah took Mohammad to an old wise relative (I forget the details) and arrived at a decision that Mohammad was indeed a true prophet.

It is most curious that Mohammad would consult a woman on such a serious matter when we consider that, under Sharia Islamic law, the testimony of a woman has only half the value of a male's testimony (it takes the testimony of two women to equal the testimony of one male). In matters of inheritance, under Islamic law, a female relative only inherits half the sum that a male relative would inherit.

Now, the Qu'ran encourages a number of worthwhile things. The Qu'ran encourages sobriety because it forbids the use of intoxicants. Unfortunately, liquor seems to be available on the black market even in the holiest of cities.

Surah 2, verse 256, encourages religious tolerance, for it says that "There shall be no coercion in matters of religion."

Yet, circa 1000 c.e., Persia (now Iran) and fallen under Muslim domination, and there are ancient Parsi (Zoroastrian) accounts of Muslims appearing outside their Parsi Fire Temples and attempting to coerce them to come to the Mosque. Most of the Zoroastrians fled Persia and came to India, where they now number under 300,000.

Some years ago, I would dine frequently at a small restaurant where a lovely young woman from Egypt, in her late 20's, was working as a waitress. I was very curious to know her feelings regarding Islam's law permitting a male to have as many as four wives. It seemed to me that, if a young woman were enthusiastic about her religion, then she would find every aspect of that religion sensible and appealing. She said, "No way! I worked hard to find just the husband I want. And he is all mine. I do not want to share him with anyone." She then told me that she knew a woman in Egypt who allowed her husband to take a second wife, because she was unable to bear children, and she wanted her husband to have children. The young waitress said that the first wife participated in the wedding ceremony as kind of a bridesmaid, and that it was sad to watch (in her opinion.)

My opinion is simply this: Show me an Islamic nation in which all women are emancipated, and then it shall make little difference to me what it is precisely that the Qu'ran does or does not encourage. But, if you cannot show me several Islamic nations (after 1500 years of Islam) in which the women are all emancipated, then you may show me all the Qu'ranic verses you like which encourage emancipation, and it shall not impress me much at all.

[Jay]

Sitaram, it's "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

[Sitaram]

(this is a continuation of my previous post, "Pie in the Sky", because I have exceeded the 10,000 character per post limitation).

What is our definition of "emancipation?" Certainly, the right to vote is very important. But just last week there was a documentary about Egypt, and they were interviewing a small town official, similar to a mayor, who worked closely with the local population, to help them with problems and material needs. He explained that, come election time, all those people he had helped throughout the year would come to this "mayor" and say: "You have helped us so much and now it is election time, so we want to repay you by casting our votes for the candidates you choose." The "mayor" explained that he would hand them a list of which candidates to vote for. Now, in such little towns, the women may be emancipated enough to have voting rights. But IF it is the case that, in PRACTICE, the people choose to treat voting as a favor to be repaid, then certainly one cannot say that this is democracy in practice. This is not what was originally envisioned when representative elected governments were first founded. Certainly, I am not saying that it is like this in every Islamic society. I am simply pointing out that there can be a vast difference between "theory and practice." Theory is what you see promised in the religious texts or the government constitutions, but practice is what you find in real life; daily life.

I recently watched that movie Monsieur Ibrahim, with Omar Sharif and Francois Dupeyron, on DVD, about an old Muslim shopkeep, in Paris, who adopts an orphaned Jewish boy. The jacket of the DVD explained that Omar Sharif's movies are banned in Egypt because he played opposite the Jewish actress, Barbra Streisand, and kissed her. I was shocked to learn this trivia fact. Such censorship will cease only when the minds and personalities of an entire society are emancipated through education and culture from the shackles of prejudice and ignorance. Only when the minds of a population are emancipated will you see actualized in practice genuine civil rights, human rights, racial equality, gender equality, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of peaceful assembly, freedom of belief and freedom to disbelieve.

http://entertainment.msn.com/celebs/celeb.aspx?mp=b&c=50043

The above link is to a brief biography of Omar Sharif, which mentions the bann in Egypt. One forum member assures me that his movies are shown daily in Egypt, which is pleasing news for me to hear. The wording in the biography is vague about when the bann took place, and how extensive it was.
There is something which Omar Sharif says several times in that movie which is quite germane to the question which this thread poses. Several times during the movie, the young boy asks Omar various important questions about life, and Omar simply answers, "I know what is in my Qu'ran".
We do not learn until the very end of the movie what is really meant by that statement. If I tell you what is meant, it will be a SPOILER, so I have placed the spoiler by itself on one page of my site, and here is the link:

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/sharif.htm


so do not visit and read if you have not seen the movie, because it is a real spoiler, and will rob you of the enjoyment of seeing this wonderful movie. I suggest you watch the movie first, and then visit my link.


The emancipation of any given individual, within any given society is dependent, not only upon the promises and encouragements of the scriptures and constitutions of that society, but upon the degree of liberation in the mind of the average citizen in that society. How emancipated is each mind from prejudice?

The motto of the Liberal Arts College which I attended is, "I make free men out of children with books and balance (Facio liberos ex liberis libris libraque)." Education is a means to emancipation in the broadest sense of the word.

You can legislate all the civil rights and equality and human rights you please, but would you "want to hire one of them" or "would you want your daughter to marry one?" It is the answers to such questions which are the measure of civil rights and human rights, and not the simply words on the pages of books or scrolls. There are laws on the books prohibiting spitting on the sidewalks, but we still must be careful to watch where we step.

Karl Marx certainly encouraged the emancipation of the working classes: "Workers of the world, unite, for you have nothing to loose but your chains." China and the former Soviet Union had over 3 generations worth of time to put the theory into practice. Were the workers emancipated? I don't know. You tell me.

Has the Qu’ran been successful, or the Gospels or the Torah? There are 15 million Jews in the world today, over one billion Muslims and over one billion Christians. How do we measure success? Is majority rule what is key? Is truth a popularity contest?

Here is a fascinating and instructive exercise for us to undertake.

Consider the following statement:



"The Gospels encourage forgiveness": what is your opinion of this statement.


I am going to tell you up front (cart-before-the-horse-style) that the Gospels are very in-your-face encouraging forgiveness but the majority of Christians (with the interesting exception of the Amish) are short on forgiveness and long on vengeance.

I say this right up front so that the reader will not begin to feel anxiety that I am about to embark upon some Qu'ran bashing by means of some Gospel praising.

Kurt Vonnegut made the astute observation that American Christians are always clamoring to erect monuments and plaques with the Ten Commandments of Moses, but no one ever thinks to erect anything with the Beatitudes of Jesus. It was the Beatitudes of Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount" which were Gandhi's favorite, and not the "Ten Commandments" on the stone tablets which Moses brought down from Sinai.

My motif in this post has been a consideration of things that "work well in theory but do not work at all in practice" and I have broadened the scope of this motif to include not only the scriptures of all religions in general, but also the constitutions of governments. I feel I am trying my best to be non-partisan in this regard.

When I see television documentaries about convicted murderers on death row, in states which are predominantly populated by "bible belt" fundamentalist Christians, and I see throngs of those Christians clamoring for an execution so that "justice might be served" then I cannot help but come away with the feeling that forgiveness, in the Gospels, worked very well in theory but hardly at all in practice; the day to day practice of those professing to be practicing Christians.

If it should be the case that a reader arrives at the subjective conclusion that the theoretical Quranic encouragement of emancipation is a failure in practice, then I hasten to remind that reader that Islam is not alone in its failures, and we may place such failure sided by side with Christianity's failure to recreate the world as people born again with a spirit of forgiveness.

I mentioned one exception to the failure of Christianity to embody forgiveness in daily life: the Amish. Several years ago, I posted something entitled "Forgiveness and the Amish". The Amish are a very small fringe group in Christianity which most mainstream Christians perhaps do not even regard as being Christian at all, but perhaps view them as schismatics or heretics or some misguided sect.

I would like to share with you an excerpt of what I wrote about a traumatic event which took place in a small Amish community and how poignantly and dramatically it illustrates how the Amish succeeded in forgiveness to a degree which greatly surpasses the shortcoming of mainstream Christianity.

Here is one Christian group's take on women's emancipation/liberation:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f003.html

[Sitaram]

(This is a continuation of the previous post #21, "What does it mean to be emancipated", as I am approaching the legal limit of character length.)


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/3425/page314.htm



A few years ago, there was a news item about a crime comitted against a teenage Amish girl by a man who was not Amish.

Several things in the news story were very interesting and instructive.

The Amish felt so strongly about the importance of forgiveness that they all went to court and pleaded for leniency for the accused.

One rarely sees ordinary Christians of other denominations taking the importance of forgiveness so seriously that they would strive to forgive a heinous criminal. They barely seem capable sometimes of being tolerant or civil to Christians of other denominations with slightly different doctrines, practices or beliefs.

The other thing of interest was what happened during the crime. The man abducted the teenage girl and drove off to a secluded area. He ordered her to undress. All she did was remove her shoes. He became angry and ordered her to continue to remove the rest of her clothes. She said, "A cannot do that, it is sinful." So he took a knife and cut the clothing to remove it.

In the courtroom trial, this shredded and cut clothing became highly significant evidence. The court used it as the strongest form of proof that the girl did not engage in consentual activity.

I am sure that the young girl did not have a clever legal mind to realize at the very oment of the crime the result of her refusal to undress. She simply very innocently felt that if she participated and cooperated, that her guilt of sin would be increased.

So often in various situations, we are unaware of the long term effects of our subtle choices and behavior.

The best forms of moral/ethical behavior are those which arise as second nature, without our thinking much about them, from long ingrained habits.

Sow a thought, reap an action.
Sow an action, reap a habit.
Sow a habit, reap a character.
Sow a character, reap a destiny.



Derrida, a proponent of Postmodernism, once said that "Genuine forgiveness, if such a thing is possible at all, is to be found only in the face of the unforgivable." (paraphrased from memory)

What are the prerequisites for emancipation?

If I might have your permission to "jack up" the topic of this thread to the highest question of all, not simply regarding Islam, but all religions, and not simply regarding the important issue of emancipation, but regarding that which is the prerequesite and sine qua non of all other human rights, namely PEACE; in what way do the religions and constitutions of the world encourage peace, for, before we can have liberty and equality and fraternity and emancipation and wisdom and enlightenment and the heavenly host of other wonderful things we seek, we must above all, achieve lasting, world-wide peace. We still seem to be some distance from the goal of world peace. I am sure it is just around the corner.

It is small consolation to be emancipated if people are shooting at you and bombing you.

You know, I think we should ask Jimmy Carter to post his opinion in this thread. Now, Jimmy happens to be a personal friend of mine.

(Sitaram shouts)

"Hey, Jimmy, come on over hear and take a look at this thread and tell us what you think!"





On my bookshelf I have an interesting book that was published in 1978 called The 100, by Michael Hart. It is a ranking of the most influential persons in history. I disagree with a lot of Hart's opinions. For instance, he ranks Jesus third, behind Muhammad and Isaac Newton (Buddha, Confuscius and St. Paul come next). Despite this, it is an intriguing text, with some thought-provoking analyses. For eample, Hart explains that he ranks Muhammad first because he was the sole founder of Islam, while Jesus and Paul share the responsibility for Christianity. Muhammad was also a great secular leader, while Jesus Christ refused to accept any worldly authority.


What is most pertinent is the author's description of the unique message of Christ. Almost all religions adopt some form of the Golden Rule as a premise, but Jesus was alone in commanding that we forgive enemies, turn the other cheek, or walk a second mile. Hart then quotes the text for this lesson and says that if these words and others from the Sermon on the Mount "were widely followed, I would have no hesitation in placing Jesus first in this book."


- from Sources of Strength by Jimmy Carter
Chapter 5, The Special Message
Page 20



Jimmy Carter points out that it is the failure of practicing Christians themselves to actualize in day-to-day practice in their lives that spirit of forgiveness which their scripture encourages in theory that prevents an author like Michael Hart from taking Jesus more seriously.

[Nightshade]

Im still reading but
The jacket of the DVD explained that Omar Sharif's movies are banned in Egypt because he played opposite the Jewish actress, Barbra Streisand, and kissed her. I was shocked to learn this trivia fact. Such censorship will cease only when the minds and personalities of an entire society are emancipated through education and culture from the shackles of prejudice and ignorance.
sorry thats a load of rubbish They show lots of Omar sharif films in Egypt on channel 2 at night and chanell one between one and three in the afternon on week days
( this also includes films made before omar sharif became "omar sharif" and was still usuing his real jewish name (he was born an Egtyptien Jew).
I havent seen that film that is true but then all films shown on tv in Egypt are automatically censored to a family guidance so depending on the rating of the film it maynot be shown.

[Nightshade]

Almost all religions adopt some form of the Golden Rule as a premise, but Jesus was alone in commanding that we forgive enemies, turn the other cheek, or walk a second mile.

humm there is an ayah of the Quran that I cant quite remeber where from that goes somthing like:
If angered God loves the non-violent, God loves those who contain there dispelsure and do not react but most of all God loves the one who forgives"
It sort of goes on in that vain for a while about who forgiving is the greatest strength and to do so will make you a better muslim and person and repeap rewards etc.

Actually one of the most trully annoying things you can say to someone who has made you mad (and this really does work especially if they are a muslim with any religous conscince) is"May God forgive you" :D

Anyway What I think is that emanciption is not trully a definition that is cross cultural.
what I mean is that to differant socities restraints may seem different.

A couple of years ago we moved to the UK (back for my mum as she is British but its the first time I have lived here) anyway as a teenage girl I kept getting ask questions like doesnt it annoy you that you wont be able to drink alchol date etc!
and isnt it like an impingment on your freedom and the answer is no!
I may be really lucky but I have never found the differances betwwen men and women a problem if anything it has always worked in my favour.
Get on a crowded bus Im a girl some male person will get up and I will sit! If Im ever in trouble I just have to scream and I know for sure that in Egypt at least twenty men will come running to help me! :brow:

Yes the culture doesnt except men and women as being the same coz lets face it there not but I dont think it really impinges on a girls freedom as such.

Also the developed world may think it has emancipated women but the truth is I think there are just as many boandarise as there are in the arb world there just slightly more hiddenthan before.

[Sitaram]

It makes me feel happy and releaved to learn that Sharif's movies are shown in Egypt.

You have aroused my curiosity as to Omar Sharif's religion.

All I can find, so far, is the following:

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1051544.htm




WILLIAMS: Born a Catholic, converted to Islam at one point, I mean what are your beliefs now?


SHARIF: I have none that I can prove. I believe in everything and in nothing. I don’t disbelieve in anything. I mean everything is possible. As far as my brain tells me I don’t believe because I believe that God is justice. The first thing that I was taught at catechist, catechism was that God is justice and I don’t see justice in the world. I see terrible injustice. I saw my mother when on her deathbed, she just died four years ago, she was a great believer and I sat next to her fifteen days while she suffered terribly before she died and I saw what relief she got from believing, from calling the Virgin Mary, from calling Jesus Christ to her help. From calling Saint Anthony of Padua who was our Saint, favourite Saint. It relieved her pain and I use to think what shall I say on my deathbed or who shall I call for help? And I decided that I will call my mother for help. That’s what I’ll say, I’ll say “mother come and get me wherever you are”.


This biographical link
http://www.netglimse.com/celebs/pages/omar_sharif/index.shtml

gives Sharif's original name as Michel Shahoub

It is VERY INTERESTING for me to learn from that link the original French title of Monsieur Ibrahim

Monsieur Ibrahim et les fleurs du Coran

[Nightshade]

Blahhhhhhhhhhh
ignore previous post I think Sitaram added to her firt post and I missed that.
did only one wife survive him aisha wasnt it??
anyway I thought she did remarry.... no maybe that was asma her sister oh she proposed to her husband too.

[Sitaram]

If my poor aging memory serves me correctly, on the day of Muhammad's death, he requested to be with his youngest and favorite wife, Aiyesha, but other wives were present. Kadijah was his first wife, and it is my understanding that only after she passed away did he take other wives, but I would have to research that to be certain.
Tradition says that Muhammad died very slowly over a three year period as the result of eating a poisoned dish of lamb served to him by a woman who had a grudge against him.

There are some wonderful links which allow you to download the entire Qu'ran, in English. The one I use has each verse in triplicate translations by Pickthall, Yusufali, and I always forget the third translator. I shall look it up momentarily.

[Nightshade]

I have an english (yousef ali) and an arabic hard copy of the qaran thanks but yeah Kadijah died in what is know as the Year of Misery when she was 60 odd and Muhammed was still in his forties then he married the other wives.

[Sitaram]

The third tranlator, whose name I could not remember, is Shakir (along with Yusufali and Pickthall).

Here are two links to Qu'ran translations, but I cannot find the link that I used just last week to get the 3 translations together.


http://www.adam2.org/dir/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Islam/Quran/index.cgi

http://geocities.com/infoquran/pickth.txt




033.053 O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.

- from the tranlation of Muhammed Marmaduke Pickthall


We also see here, the verse which is the origin of the practice of women taking what is called in some countries Purdah, or the veil.

http://www.kings.edu/womens_history/purdah.html




Generally, those women in the upper and middle class are more likely to practice all aspects of purdah because they can afford to not work outside the home.

Purdah probably developed in Persia and later spread to Middle Eastern lands. Purdah flourished in ancient Babylon. No woman could go outside unless masked and chaperoned by a male from the family. Even parts of the household were separated as a practice of segregation. The ancient Assyrian women also had to remain inside behind curtains where darkness and little breeze prevailed. In the 7th century A.D., during the Arab conquest of what is now Iran, the Muslims probably adapted the idea of purdah to their religion. The Prophet Muhammad reintroduced the custom as part of the Islamic tenets of faith. As time went by the laws associated with purdah became more severe. During the British domination in India, the observance of purdah was very strictly adhered to and widespread among the Muslims.

[Nightshade]

when I was at school I had to tachers who interpprited that ayah in differant ways either the wives of the prophet is just that or its a metaphore for every muslim woman.

[Sitaram]

Many will recognize the word "polygyny", which means "having more than one wife". "Polyandry" means "having more than one husband". And "pollywannacracker" means you are a parrot who is hungry. (So much for comic relief).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy


In order to evaluate Islam's emancipation of women, we should attempt to explore how women feel about polygynous marriage.

Rabindranath Tagore wrote a short story entitled The Girl Between (Madhyabartini), about a childless wife who nags her husband to take a second wife, but lives to regret it.

In India, Hindus were allowed to take a second wife if the first wife did not object.

This will be a sad story about polygyny. We must keep our eyes peeled for a happy story about polygyny.

The name of the husband in the story is Nivaran and his wife's name is Harasundari



Not even inadvertently did he ever think, debate, or wonder about the meaning or design of living.




We won't be able to have any children. You should marry again.

"If only I could give my husband a child as fiar as cream, as soft as butter, as handsome as cupid!"

It occured to her that her husband should marry again. She wondered why wives got so upset at this idea; it would not be at all difficult. Why was it impossible for one who loved her husband to also love a co-wife?




Nivaran was married to a tearful young girl whose name was Shailabala. She was short of stature and wore a nose jewel.





Here at hand was a great curiosity, an enormous mystery. One wants to examine a diamond under many conditions, from many angles, turning it this way and that, and here was a beautiful little human being, a great wonder. This must be touched and caressed, viewed from a distance, from close at hand, sidewise. Sometimes the earrings were tweaked, sometimes the veil was lifted a little. The extend of the new beauties must be ascertained, sometimes with a quick perception lik a flash of lightening, sometimes with a long look as steadfast as the stars.




After breakfast Nivaran had acted as if he were going to the office, but had gone instead to Shailabala's room. Why this deception? Suddenly someone seemed to open Harasundari's eyes with a hot poker; in that searing heat her tears evaporated.

Harasundari said to herself, "I am the one who brought her into the house. I am the one who brought them together. Then why does he treat me like this, as if I get in the way of their happiness?

It now seemed to Harasundari that someone had kept hr from knowing the true meaning of existence. her heart felt as if it had always been starved. Her life as a woman had been spent in sheer poverty. She had wasted those precious twenty-seven years in slavery, going to the grocery, worrying about fruits and vegetables, and after-dinner betel nuts and spices. Today, at the midpoint of life, she saw that in the very next romm a little girl had unlocked the store containing the most cherished treasure and by a sudden coup had become the empress. Women are indeed meant to serve, but they are also meant to be queens. In the process of sharing, one woman had become the servant and the other the queen. But the servant had lost her pride and the queen was not happy.


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum3/HTML/000173.html




A big problem for me is also that we want children and time is running out for me to get children. He says we will get some inscha allah, but what if we dont and his wish for children will be so big that he will take a second wife to get them, I could never ever accept this and he knows. Honestly, that he can marry 4 wifes is the only part in the Koran I question. Like he told me his father and brother married only one wife and he will do the same because of me.

I also want to say that I visited and loved Egypt long before I met my bf and I bought books about the islam and quit the christian church also long before that. I know a lot about the culture and when I stay in Egypt I wear hijab and abaya, I think I understand why the Koran asks for this and I want the people to respect my bf and me. He never asked me to do this but he is very happy about it and feels I care also, this is my part of protecting him.

But knowing in my heart he is loving me I still have more and more doubts and start questioning things and not trusting anymore, maybe I dont trust life anymore ......





http://www.lavc.edu/anthr2lw/acw.html

I told her about what I considered to be the "benefits" of being the secondary (co-wife). You never had to do laundry, deal with bills, housework, yard work, and that whenever your lover arrived he was excited to see you. I made it sound so good to myself that I secretly hoped to become such a mistress. I began to crave dancing into a special lover's arms, being smothered with kisses, wearing sexy lingerie under my blue jeans, and having him seduce me within five minutes of my arrival at his door. Meanwhile Angela stood fast to her desire not be Don's mistress. When he came to visit her she wanted to engage him in "normal" activities like watching videos, doing crossword puzzles, and eating TV dinners.



http://www.islam-qa.com/QA/e%7CPsychological_and_Social_Problems/Mushkilaat_ijtimaa'iyyah_(social_problems)/Her_co-wife_threatens_her_is_hostile_towards_her_and_does _not_greet_her_with_salaam.30112000.11785.shtml




What to do when you are married to the same brother and the first wife threatens you and curses at you and will only give salaams when around other people to save face but doesn't speak when no one else is around. Ive been married for 9years to him her longer.

Praise be to Allaah.

She has to bear it with patience as much as possible, and not repay evil with evil. She should respond to her co-wife’s provocations by keeping silent and keeping calm. If she can write her a letter expressing her views, this is good. Then after that she will not be responsible for what she (her co-wife) does, because she will have done what she is obliged to do.






http://www.zawaj.com/siddiqua/5-1-2001.html

This is the life of a Muslimah, whether she is married, single, a co-wife or a widow. We are all women in Allah's service, His very vice-regents on earth. The day WILL come when we stand before Him (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) hoping with a hope so deep it is cold in our souls and dreading with a dread so intense it will bow our shoulders. Have we earned the Pleasure of our Lord? The day WILL come when our books will be shut and we will be shut, too ... shut of this world and its foolish charms, shut of our chance to repent, love and shower mercy on every other human being that Allah (Tabaarak wa Ta'ala) in His Infinite Care created and placed here to cross our paths, shut of any chance to stand tall, proud and dignified when we say to ourselves and secretly thank our Beneficent One that we chose to love Him more than our own desires, more than the beating of our own hearts. The Day WILL come and those who have earned their just reward will be dealt it ... swiftly, surely, permanently.

It is not worth it to me to fuss with my soul over why my husband doesn't hold my hand anymore when Nahid is around. It is a waste of my time to regret the changes in my life that Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) put there Himself. It is a shame that I do not want to bear or burden my soul with that I would focus more on what I have lost than what I am gaining. Why would we want a simple, easy life when the believers REJOICE and are STEADFAST with the Decree of their Lord? Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) knows our pains. Allah (Tabaarak wa Ta'ala) knows our sufferings. Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) knows our fears. Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) knows our doubts and the very day that our suffering will end and our trials of this world, those blessings in disguise, will melt from us as gently as a drop of dew slips sparkling off an early morning rose petal, leaving it refreshed, cooled, soothed.

Dear sister, tell your husband you will struggle. Tell your husband you will fight the good fight. Tell your husband you want to earn the privilege of sharing eternity with him. Tell your husband that obedience to him is obedience to Allah (Tabaarak wa Ta'ala). Tell your husband that you love what Allah loves and you hate what Allah hates. Tell your husband that you have considered your life and the blessings that have been bestowed upon you and that you are ready to face the next set. Tell your husband that you rejoice at being a believer who finds comfort in the words of Allah "With every hardship, there is ease. With every hardship, there is ease". Ask your husband to pray for you ... and then you pray for yourself, dear sister. You pray for your husband. You pray for this new wife. And Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) Will ... Allah (Tabaarak wa Ta'ala) Will ... He WILL answer your prayers.

[Sitaram]

There is an ayah of the Quran that I cant quite remember where from that goes somthing like:

If angered God loves the non-violent, God loves those who contain there displeasure and do not react but most of all God loves the one who forgives."

It sort of goes on in that vain for a while about how forgiving is the greatest strength and to do so will make you a better Muslim and person and reap rewards, etc.

Actually, one of the most trully annoying things you can say to someone who has made you mad (and this really does work especially if they are a Muslim with any religous conscience) is "May God forgive you."





If I make my enemy my friend, then have I not destroyed my enemy?




Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

- Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)


The commandments to "forgive your enemy, love your enemy, bless those who curse you, and repay evil with good" appear to be unique to the New Testament.

I have the entire English translation of the Qu'ran as a file on my disk, which I may open with Microsoft word, and do a string search on "enem" which shows me each line which mentions enemy or enemies. I can do a string search on "forgiv" and find every verse which mentions the words "forgiving" "forgive" "forgiven" "forgiveness". This translation has three different translators interpretations for each verse (Shakir, Pickthall, and Yusufali) so one may catch a verse if only ONE of those three chooses to use some form of "enemy" or "forgive".

I have just finished my search, and I have cut and pasted what I feel is a fair representation of passages. There was no point in including every instance of often repeated verses such as "Allah is forgiving". I tried to eliminate needless repetition and past only those passages which say something unique and demonstrative about the notion of forgiveness and ideas about enemies in the Qu'ran.

I have now posted these pasted passages to a page at my website, for the convenience of anyone who is interested in studying them. Posting elsewhere will spare this forum needless bandwidth and diskspace usage.

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/enemyforgiveness.htm

I can honestly say that I do not encounter in the Qu'ran any message to "forgive ones enemies". There are passages which mention enemies in ones own family, and the importance of overlooking their transgressions and holding one's temper. There is no message to "bless those who curse you" or to "to repay evil for good."

It is interesting to note that, since Muhammed was living in the 7th century after Christ, he certainly had ample opportunity to hear such sentiments expressed by Christians.

I think I may have found the verse which Nighshade remembers. When I do find it, I shall post it here.





YUSUFALI: Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-

PICKTHAL: Those who spend (of that which Allah hath given them) in ease and in adversity, those who control their wrath and are forgiving toward mankind; Allah loveth the good;

SHAKIR: Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others).


6:112 is interesting in that it says that Allah intentionally creates certain enemies and adversaries and, were it not for Allah's express will, than such enemies would not exist and act in such adversarial fashion.



PICKTHALL: Thus have We appointed unto every prophet an adversary -devils of humankind and jinn who inspire in one another plausible discourse through guile. If thy Lord willed, they would not do so; so leave them alone with their devising;


60:1 expressly forbids loving your enemy under certain circumstances:



YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.



64:14 exhorts us to cover the sins of family members only, making no mention of those who are not related to us.



YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-f0rgiving, Most Merciful.


2:178 speaks of retaliation



SHAKIR: O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.




YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.


When we hear the word emancipation we think of slavery. The word slavery is used nowhere in the three translators accessible to me.



YUSUFALI: It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.




YUSUFALI: Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-

PICKTHAL: Those who spend (of that which Allah hath given them) in ease and in adversity, those who control their wrath and are forgiving toward mankind; Allah loveth the good;

SHAKIR: Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others).




YUSUFALI: It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee: so pass over (Their faults), and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then, when thou hast Taken a decision put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).

PICKTHAL: It was by the mercy of Allah that thou wast lenient with them
(O Muhammad), for if thou hadst been stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from round about thee. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah. Lo! Allah loveth those who put their trust (in Him).

SHAKIR: Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.




YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-

PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road,

SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and act unjustly Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to a path



Here are some links on loving your enemies from a Christian perspective

http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/resources/angloveenemy010424.asp

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2323

http://bible.cc/matthew/5-44.htm

http://www.pbc.org/dp/ritchie/4132.html

http://www.whosoever.org/v6i2/tona.html

http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/6_27-36.htm

http://douglas7eberman.net/BibleOnWar.html

http://www.4hurtingchristians.com/love.html

http://www.laborersinchrist.org/topics/enemies.htm

http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/biblical-prophecy/BP0201W2.htm

http://www.biblebell.org/chrislife/prayer.html

http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm

[shortysweetp]

Many will recognize the word "polygamy", which means "having more than one wife". "Polyandry" means "having more than one husband". And "pollywannacracker" means you are a parrot who is hungry. (So much for comic relief).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy



well according to my dictionary polygamy is more than one spouse (regardlass of sex). Polygyny is more than one wife.

polygamy - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=polygamy

polygyny - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=polygyny

[Sitaram]

Reading Lolita In Tehran - Asar Nafisi



Imagine us the way we sometimes didn't dare to imagine ourselves: in our most private and secret moments, in the most extraordinarily ordinary instances of life, listening to music, falling in love, walking down the shady streets or reading Lolita in Tehran. And then imagine us again with all this confiscated, driven underground, take away from us.




That room, for all of us, became a place of transgression. What a wonderland it was! Sitting around the large coffee table covered with bouquets of flowers, we moved in and out of the novels we read. Looking back, I am amazed at how much we learned without even noticing it. We were, to borrow from Nabokov, to experience how the ordinary pebble of ordinary life could be transformed into a jewel through the magic eye of fiction.





It took two more years before the University finally accepted my resignation. I remeber a friend told me, You don't understand their mentality. They won't accept yor resignation because they don't think you have the right to quit. They are the ones who decide how long you should stay and when you should be dispensed with. More than anything else, it was this arbitrariness that had become unbearable.




Always, the joy of teaching was marred by diversions and considerations forced on us by the regime - how well could one teach when the main concern of the university officials was no the quality of one's work but the color of one's lips, the subversive potential of a single strand of hair? Could one really concentrate on one's job when what preoccupied the faculty was how to excise the word wine from a Hemingway story, when they decided not to teach Brontë because she appeared to condone adultery?

[Sitaram]

YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-

PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road,

SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and act unjustly Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to a path



How strange, indeed! One would think that it is precisely those astray who have the greatest need for guidance.

Such a passage as this stands in stark contrast to certain Biblical passages.
But, perhaps we might find other, different, passages in the Qu'ran which also run counter to this one.

Such passages as this give pause for thought.

[Nightshade]

I thought that in context this passage was those who conciously (spelling?) delibratly stray are not forgiven.
Sort of like the ayah
alah refers that you do not do a good deed than a good deed followed by a sin.

[Sitaram]

I thought that in context this passage was those who conciously (spelling?) delibratly stray are not forgiven.
Sort of like the ayah
alah refers that you do not do a good deed than a good deed followed by a sin.

Good point! I enjoy our exchanges.

But for me, it is a matter of guidance, and not forgiveness.

I am at work, on this Monday morning, so time is limited. I shall give more thought to this thread during the coming days.

[Sitaram]

Since I have taken up so much space in this thread, which I find interesting and challenging, but also I am sure, uncomfortable for many to read, since that which we hold most dear, and that which we vehemently reject can be sensitive and painful to discuss in such a rigorous and analytical fashion.

I have a confession to make to you. I am not Cat Stevens. Well, I guess you didn't think I was. The greatest tribute one can pay to any religion or philosophy or form of government is to embraced it whole heartedly. The entertainer Cat Stevens is an example of someone who turned his whole life around in order to embrace Islam. Only such a person can be said to completely understand the religion. I have much more to say on this topic, and it is necessary for me to acknowledge this "cat stevens" fact of life if we are to go in any great depth into the dialogue which Chava's excellent question has launched.

But I want to tell you a very poignant, true story, that I experienced on the Internet, in Yahoo chat, as I conversed with a young Muslim woman, who called herself Yankin, who was dying with cancer and only had a few months left to live.

I wrote about her on my Goodbye page of my website, a page which I created so that, should I die suddenly, unexpectedly, I would not miss the opportunity to say a few final things to my readers.




I would like to express thankfulness and gratitude for the miracle of the INTERNET, which has given me this rare opportunity for three years to stand on a soapbox and address the world, or at least, anyone in the world who has some interest in these matters and who stumbles across one of my pages in a search engine. The Internet and free website space and software has made a GREAT contribution to freedom of speech.

It is also a miracle that for only the past 100 years or so have so many of the world's ancient writings been translated into popular languages and made available at a low cost or even free, to a large segment of the worlds population. Also the miracle that so many people around the world have HAD THE OPPORTUNITY to receive an education, become literate, and read those books.

A few years ago, I was sitting in a large bookstore at a table, and a native African came and sat at the same table. He had a copy of the Qu'ran AND a copy of the Bible. I could not resist the temptation to ask him WHY he had those two books, and what he was looking for. He explained to me that he was raised Muslim in Africa, but had never learned Arabic and did not understand what the Qu'ran really said. He now felt some nagging doubts about concerning the truth of religion, and he wanted to compare the Qur'an and the Bible, and sort things out for himself. Universal education (literacy) and inexpensive books and free libraries make such personal inquiries possible.


My thoughts frequently go back three years ago, to a young woman in Malaysia, in her early twenties, whom I met in a Yahoo religion chat room. Her screen name was Yankin. She was dying of cancer. She approached me because I was considered by a few to be a minor authority on matters of comparative religion. My other excellent qualification, I suppose, is that I was available and willing. She had been raised Muslim, but was experiencing doubts and uncertainty as to which might be the "true religion". She wanted to question and explore. At that time (circa 1998), I was quite so outspoken in my theological criticisms. I did not try to influence her in any one direction. I simply listened. We corresponded frequently over a period of several months. She finally wrote to me that she had settled upon Islam, and found some peace of mind. I respected her choice then, and I still respect it today. One must respect the choices of the dying which give them peace.


I am posting this from the office, at the end of Monday's work day. I shall return to this post and add more to it tonight. I think that there is much which should be said about the threads of our upbringing and culture and family and heritage which become inextricably woven into the very fabric of our hearts and souls. It is important for us to try to understand ourselves and one another, because we are all well aware how our future survival depends on such an understanding.

I feel compassion for young people (under 40) who are by their very nature idealistic and who, therefore, feel compelled to defend fiercely what they have come to consider as absolutes. It is difficult and painful for anyone, whoever and whatever you may be, to place your heritage, your ancestors, your history, your cherished beliefs, under the multicultural microscope of our postmodern world and ask difficult questions. If I analyze things to death or pose very uncomfortable questions, it is because that is what I was trained to do all my life. But do not think that I am without compassion for the ideological struggle which any person goes through in life, male, female, Asian, European, African, Muslim, Catholic, Pentecostal, Hare Krishna, whatever. As Kermit the Frog would say, "Its not easy being green." As the Superman song says, we are all "digging for kryptonite on this one-way street."

=============

I am resuming my thoughts here Tuesday morning, as I wait for the coffee water to boil. As I awoke, several thoughts (opinions if you will) came to me.
One thought is in regard to one of the letters above from a woman struggling in a polygynous marriage. I shall repost just a few of the sentences (below) which seem the hallmark of martyric resignation to self-sacrifice. The point I would like to make is that self-sacrifice for the sake of another's happiness and the ultimate sacrifice of martyrdom possess a drama and an emotional appeal which transcends any religion or denomination or sect, philosophy, or nationality.




http://www.zawaj.com/siddiqua/5-1-2001.html

Tell your husband you will fight the good fight.

Tell your husband that obedience to him is obedience to Allah.

It would be a shame if I would prefer not to bear my burden but rather choose to focus more upon what I have lost rather than upon what I shall be gaining. Why would we want a simple, easy life when the believers REJOICE and are STEADFAST with the Decree of their Lord?

Allah knows our pains. Allah knows our sufferings. Allah knows our fears. Allah knows our doubts and the very day that our suffering will end and our trials of this world, those blessings in disguise, will melt from us as gently as a drop of dew slips sparkling off an early morning rose petal, leaving it refreshed, cooled, soothed.


These are the words of a martyr who has become resigned to her fate.
If this woman were Christian, then she would be speaking the rhetoric of bearing her cross in life and imitating Jesus in his sufferings.

The expression "fight the good fight" is ink straight out of Paul's pen.

1 Timothy 6:12 - "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.".

2 Timothy 4:7 - "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"


http://www.monthly-messenger.org/Topics/TOPIC_Dec00.htm

It is unavoidable that over the course of many centuries, all the various religions and languages, philosophies and cultures, should influence one another and imitate one another in some fashion.

If you listen to acapella byzantine Greek Orthodox chant, you will find certain similarities and resemblances with the chanting and intonation heard in Muslim Masjids.

Consider the sheer literary power and appeal of a story in which a god becomes human and suffers the worst suffings imaginable, all for the sake of saving the entire human species. Whatever else Jesus may or may not be, Jesus is definitely a literary figure or character which has had far reaching influence over the course of 2000 years.

[Sitaram]

The mystery of Chava's profile revealed:

http://www.cats-central.com/cat-names/native_american_cat_names.html

MOSI: Navajo name meaning "cat"

TIVA: Hopi name meaning "dance"

see Chava's profile:

"Do you want to tiva with the mosi?"

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/member.php?u=3992

(Since Chava started this thread, and I like to unravel mysteries).

[Sitaram]

I have been most curious to hear your reaction to my lengthy posts to your thread.


I have not seen you on-line for some time.

[Chava]

well well well, someone actually dug up all that... as for an explanation i offer only that i dance, and that i have numerous catish tendencies...
as for my reaction, it has yet to be clarified. have you read the Kite Runner?

[Sitaram]

I shall look for a copy of "The Kite Runner" today.

This Penguin link makes it sound like an interesting book to read.

http://www.penguinputnam.com/static/rguides/us/kite_runner.html




“When you are on the dance floor and the music surrounds you, the beat hits you in your stomach and collapses inside you, that is Implosion."

[Chava]

This is the speech that originally inspired this thread.



How the Quran encourages emancipation of women.
When Islam was originally founded by Mohammed it was a revolutionary idea, and a huge leap in favour of women.

Mohammad held women in high regard, as equal members of society and not merely as the units of trade they had been regarded as earlier, and in the surrounding patriarchal, tribal Arabian society.

The revelations of Mohammad dramatically changed this situation. He was seriously convinced that women should have the right to inherit, and that her witness was accounted for in judicial matters. She became a legal person.
For us this may seem as if the glass is half empty, but for the women, they finally got a glass, and it was more than half full. Mohammad changed the law so that her wedding dowry was given to her, and not to her family, so that she may support herself financially in case of a divorce. Women thus became important economical players, and decision makers in their own right. In Europe, the Danish women only got voting rights in 1915, and the Swiss are still waiting for someone to modernise them.

Here, in Europe and the western world, we preach the change and modernisation of Islam, so that the Muslim countries may be as modern, progressive and liberal thinking as we are.

This Islamic revolution started in the 7th century. What were the modern Europeans doing at that point? The Vikings were looting and pilfering our neighbours, and stealing the women they found to return back with them into forced marriages, or forever to be kept as thralls. Some of these men kept several wives; polygamy was thriving and part of culture.

And so you think, “but wait a second, isn’t forced marriages also part of Islam?”
That is the fundamentalists approach to this text. The Quran states that a man may have up to four wives! However, you must remember to read this in a context.
In the 7th century, Mohammad founded Islam, and so laid foundations for women’s rights. As part of a society prepared to care for it’s needy.

The fact is that many men died in the numerous wars that accompany the first centuries. And so, to protect the widows, and orphaned children, men were obliged to take on further wives to ensure that no one should be left without any form of insurance. The requirements were also that there should be no discrimination between these wives, all should be treated evenly, and be given equal rights.
The husband could marry the daughters which he adopted, but only with her permission, and if she desired to marry him.
When they married, they were ensured the right to keep their own property, and they were ensured financial support from their new husband, so that they wouldn’t have to become desperate housewives.

For many years, the Muslim men were absolutely appalled at the way the Europeans were treating their women. Like slaves, and objects to be traded in a good deal.
I suppose they’re still appalled, when they see the advertisements on our bus stops, and might feel that they’re values are being corrupted.
However, all religions will be coloured by the norms and cultures of the societies in which they are practiced, and so the original teachings of Islam have been modified by the surrounding patriarchal society.
The important thing to remember is, that the original values were different from those from whom we today see as the fundamentalists.

According to my own opinion, there are many values to be found in the Quran, but not if they are taken literally. I do believe that many of these values, are highly relevant even today, I just feel there should be some form of reconsidering about the context in which we interpret the Quran.
After the Mohammad died, a collection of his words was made known as the Hadith. I personally believe that there are many wise and beautiful sayings in the Hadith. For example, “Every good deed, is a charity, and it is a good deed to make someone smile”, or “Wealth comes from a contented heart, not a lot of possessions”, and more appropriately, “All men and women, must seek knowledge.”

We say that Islam needs modernisation, to fit with current standards, and our interpretations of right and wrong. Maybe, to become modernised we must look back to the original values of Islam, and give these a renaissance.
Maybe we should take up the challenge of changing the situation for women now, like the prophet did in his century.

Perhaps it’s time to revisit our current prejudices of Islam, to find the original values, and start to find common ground.

I think this could possibly be the unedited version, but i was not able to recover the final one. I hope it will be of any interest.

[Sitaram]

How wonderful to hear from you! I had been waiting anxiously to see/hear/read your thoughts/reactions.

I am eager to study your speech.

I understand how time may be limited for many members because of their academic obligations. I had braced myself for the possibility that you might never be able to respond because of time limitations.


Also, understandably, not everyone is of the inclination and nature to be scholarly and plow through long essays or write long essays in response.


If someone embraces Islam as their personal religion, and sees God as Allah through the lens of the Qu'ran, then it may be uncomfortable for them to enter a discussion in which the Qu'ran or the Prophet is questioned or doubted in any fashion.


So, I shall read over your speech during the coming hours and days, and post my comments.

[Chava]

I think it would be relevant to inform you that in accordance with my own personal beleifs, i am entirely unconvinced of the existance of any form of god. I am an atheist. I beleive that the great privillege of atheism is a more open minded approach to all other religions, being able to look upon it all with an entirely unbiased impression.
This speeech was not made to represent islam, or defend it, it was a matter of confronting an audience with the concept of their own prejudice (which is something i dispise) and attempting to let them see an alternate situation. I beleive in the things that i have said, but i am not muslim.
just incase there was any doubt there...