Nick Bostrom: The Philosophy of the Matrix

[Asian-American]

Hello,

One of today's hottest philosophers is Professor Nick Bostrom, see http://www.nickbostrom.com/ He is a Professor in the Philosophy Department of Oxford University. He is mostly known for his works in alternate realities, where he argues that we humans may be living in a computer simulation and we would not even be aware of it.

I think he has a point: when we dream, we think it's real, until we wake up. Well, what is our current world is just a dream, or a simulation? We would never know. I believe reality can never be known for sure.

What do you think?

Thank you :D

[Molko]

The thing with dreams though, is that each dream varyies each night. The scenarios change, the people change, etc. When we wake up, we always wake up into a 'reality' that is constant. It is possible that our world is a simulation, but I doubt that it is just a dream...

[Asian-American]

The thing with dreams though, is that each dream varyies each night. The scenarios change, the people change, etc. When we wake up, we always wake up into a 'reality' that is constant. It is possible that our world is a simulation, but I doubt that it is just a dream...

Thinking about it, a dream is the same thing as a computer simulation: just the mediums are different: while a computer simulation runs in silicon, dream simulations run in neurons and synapses.

[mono]

This seems very difficult to respond so easily. I do find it very possible to dream while awake, yet in a different manner, hopefully not having similar hallucinations, for example. Deviating dreams from assumed 'reality' philosophers, mainly existentialists, have debated for centuries.
The Matrix, as you mentioned, AA, I think, in a ridiculously violent manner, represents some of the ideas thought by René Descartes in his Meditations; while he contemplated the idea of a 'brain in a bottle,' and attaching electrodes to it, representing actual function, he thought much of the difference whether consciousness necessarily exists in the brain, and, if so, if a machine can imitate it, as if in a dream state, making much of life like a dream. He found truth in his idea that consciousness does persist mainly in the brain, and that it controls the rest of the body, and claimed "Cogito ergo sum" ("I think, therefore, I am"), leaving the question whether one can necessarily 'think' rationally in dreams as well as in waking life.
In applying two popular thinkers' philosophies, that of Immanuel Kant and George Berkeley, they would find no actual difference between dreams and waking life, though they differ in many other ways. The perception of subjective reality (which all proves subjective) depends on a person's perceiving it, and, surely, as one perceives his/her dreams, they become reality, only sometimes more vivid, distorted, and less associated with rational thought.
With more recent thought, however, a reader of their often differing philosophies (and watcher of The Matrix) can consider what few people have thought: lucid dreams. A person who experiences lucid dreams can easily distinguish dreaming from waking life while dreaming, and, during the dream, has the opportunity to do things amazingly impossible in waking life (i.e.: flying). Surely, while awake, one cannot fly as if in a dream, but does lucid dreaming merely offer that privelege of confidence and awareness, and does this fully represent a perceived portion of subjective reality in the mind, solely based on one's thoughts? Yes. Perhaps one can even go far enough to say that one who has lucid dreams can better distinguish his/her different thoughts and experiences between waking and dreaming based on Kant's and Berkeley's ideas of subjective reality, because he/she seems to think equally in both states; in essence, one "thinks" between both illusory states, "therefore, he/she is."

[Monica]

Simulations and hyperreality sounds like Jean Baudrillard. Read his "Precession of Simulacra". It is exactly the philosophy of Matrix. Interesting but too hyperreal, I think.

[~K~]

Very interesting "Star trech Interprise" the last epi had that very same theme . Two other crew members from "Next Generation" were running a program simulation of their protocessors.
The twist was, "Number One" I think the guy under Capt.Picard rank was interacting with its crew .
He had never appeared before on the interprise during the whole season and there was no mention to crew being simualtions until the last epi then the Next generation crew member interacted with the interprise crew members . The series never showed the cook and was who he was when he was interacting with its members.
As for dreams I know when I am dreaming and when I am not. I think there is something within us that lets us know we are living and the same would go for a computor program it would somehow know deep down that it was only a similation. The matrix is facinating to ponder.

[starrwriter]

Hasn't anyone heard of the Butterfly Parable by the ancient Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu?

Chuang Tzu fell asleep one night and dreamed he was a butterfly flitting around a garden. But when he awoke the next morning, he couldn't decide if he was a man who had dreamed of being a butterly or a butterfly dreaming he was a man.

In other words, we think we are aware of reality during the state of consciousness, but we can't ever be absolutely certain. Perhaps the state of dreaming connects us to the genuine reality and consciousness amounts to a highly-detailed delusion.

About the original "Matrix" film: I think the author was motivated mostly by a profound disgust with modern life, not a scifi or what-is-reality theme.

[Satirical]

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/brain-vat/

[NewWorldOrder]

>Well, what is our current world is just a dream, or a simulation? We would never know. I believe reality can never be known for sure.
But what is reality ?

In science when we say something one has to refer a referential system. Consider a sophisticated video game with artificial intelligence animating creatures: for us, OUTSIDE the video game system it's just a simulation, but for the objects inside the game it's REAL.

You would say but we are not like animated characters in video game. But if you are a scientific person, you know that the world is fundamentally deterministic - read for example physician Alan Sokal - like in the video game: it's just because of the nearly infinite combination of interactions that it appears to be random.

So in some sense we are living in a illusion of self-determination but in practice does it change something since we cannot predict our future it is as if everything was real after all though for would-be creatures observing our world it would be just a simulation.

[starrwriter]

>Well, what is our current world is just a dream, or a simulation? We would never know. I believe reality can never be known for sure. But what is reality?
Thoreau wrote that if we could ever look at our society in a completely objective way, it would seem as strange and unfamiliar as 1001 Arabian Nights.

[NewWorldOrder]

Thoreau wrote that if we could ever look at our society in a completely objective way, it would seem as strange and unfamiliar as 1001 Arabian Nights.
We CAN but do we WANT REALLY ?

For example people talks about determinism and rejects it because they fear to become mad or because the extremists in some religion have pushed creationism theory to the absurd so that it is associated with determinism whereas determinism is inherently present in Scientific theory.

Jacques Bricmont a scientist wrote this paper : Determinism, Chaos and Quantum Mechanics:

http://dogma.free.fr/txt/JB-Determinism.pdf

He denounces the social religious mismanipulation about determinism in this paper.

For example he says:


It is likely that the hostility to determinism comes from a desire to "save free will". Namely, to find a description of the physical Universe that can be reconcilied with our deep feeling that at least on some occasions "we" choose to do X and not Y.
...
One solution is to declare free will as an illusion. But if that is the case it is a necessary illusion in the sense that we cannot live without in some sense believing in it.

[starrwriter]

We CAN but do we WANT REALLY?
I think it's healthy to look at our society from an outsider's point of view occasionally. Under normal circumstances, we are so close to it (virtually embedded) we can't see it in a true light.


Jacques Bricmont a scientist wrote this paper: Determinism, Chaos and Quantum Mechanics:
http://dogma.free.fr/txt/JB-Determinism.pdf
He denounces the social religious mismanipulation about determinism in this paper. For example he says:

It is likely that the hostility to determinism comes from a desire to "save free will". Namely, to find a description of the physical Universe that can be reconcilied with our deep feeling that at least on some occasions "we" choose to do X and not Y. One solution is to declare free will as an illusion. But if that is the case it is a necessary illusion in the sense that we cannot live without in some sense believing in it.
That is the same conclusion I have come to regarding free will -- a socially necessary illusion. Without free will, no one could be held responsible for his actions.

[confused1]

you guys should watch "Waking Life" !!!!

a thought to consider is: you can wake up anytime YOU want from a dream....

[NewWorldOrder]

I think it's healthy to look at our society from an outsider's point of view occasionally. Under normal circumstances, we are so close to it (virtually embedded) we can't see it in a true light.



That is the same conclusion I have come to regarding free will -- a socially necessary illusion. Without free will, no one could be held responsible for his actions.
The necessary illusion is not new: just read Plato, he said in "Republic" that the divine origin of the elites is a lie but this lie is a necessity or people won't accept governance from the rulers. And without Religion most people won't have enough strength to resist madness.

Now for people who do not believe in Religions and there are more and more people who are in that cases there are several profiles:

- those with low scientific education who believe that Quantum Theory justifies Free Will. In truth it doesn't really because the so called uncertainty principle in Quantum Theory is just ONE interpretation among others and the proof is that the creator of Quantum Theory doesn't agree with this interpretation and of course Einstein doesn't either - this is famous enough. Still this interpretation is the most widespread in mass public and it was explained by Bricmont and Sokal in a book that this celebrity was caused by french sociologists who used this interpretation to justify their political view by science whereas science shouldn't have been involved.

- those with more rigourous education who know that science doesn't know much in truth and that the door is opened for investigation. What is sure is that Determinism is to stay in Science and that free will may or may not exist. For example let's take again the analogy with a video game. Before you buy a game, you have probably seen a demo. This demo is completely determined. Once you buy the game, the RULES of the game are determined but YOU DECIDE what to do in the game so that the end results will change. So if in the real universe we are like a player who plays the game of Universe, though the Universe is deterministic in its rules you can still influence the output. But we can imagine imbricated Universes so that the concept of free will would be relative I'm not sure you're following me :).

As for walking life I'm going to look at it.

[NewWorldOrder]

Now don't think that Science is so far from metaphysics, for example in October of european magazine "Science of Life" (http://www.science-et-vie.com/AnciensSV/1057.asp) the big title was "Does the World really exists ?" with the thesis that the Universe could be a computer.


Also look at what AI (Artificial Intelligence) can do today:
http://www.oddcast.com/home/side_ai.html

Me - Hello
Him - Hi, there
Me - Who are you ?
Him - I ask myself that question, "Who am I?"
:D

And he doesn't answer the same thing each time to the same question so he is capable of being "intelligent".

So yes we may be some very high sophisticated AI generated by some sophisticated computer.

[starrwriter]

you guys should watch "Waking Life" !!!!
Read about it and it looks fascinating. I still haven't seen Linklater's "Slackers." Way behind.


you can wake up anytime YOU want from a dream....
Only if you know how. Otherwise, no one would have nightmares that go on and on.

[NewWorldOrder]

Found this not to be taken at face value of course but it's funny :):
http://com1.runboard.com/bundergroundvoices.fthereturnofnibiru.t96

Ellie's Interpretation:

There is a central source of creation. Some people see it as Light, other see it as a simulation room where programs are created - as in the movies matrix or the Holodeck in the TV and movies shows Star Trek.

This source of light divides into 12 pyramids of light. They spiral around the central source and create a Matrix - Grid System - The Spider Web Effect - Hall of Records - Akashic Record - Collective Unconscious - whatever term you chose. They create this on many different frequencies - some are physical and some are not. They never stop creating from this source - yet within each story or program created, the patterns must repeat over and over for that is how it creates.

Once the 'computer consciousness' has created these programs - the souls want to experience some of them in a physical body. The computer must now develop a way to do this. It creates programs made of electromagnetic energies - like north and south poles - which mean that this program will have polarities - duality - good guys and bad guys. There will always be conflict. The program will remain unbalanced until it is over.

Souls experiencing any of the physical programs - all of which run simultaneously - such as Earth, Sirius, Nibiru, Orion, Atlantis, etc. - will experience most of the emotions available within the program while they remain in third dimension.

The program understands that the EM energies of third dimension are a lower frequency vibration. They move more slowly - are sluggish. We are of heavier density therefore we can't just move around or biolocate as we are able - when our souls are in faster and higher vibrations.

We have to take cars, trains, and planes to go great distances verses bilocating to the place you wish to be. Think about entities on the other side. They can move from where you are to any place else they wish to go in a manner of seconds. Wouldn't you like to have that skill?

Here is another way to understand this concept. Consider your dreams or mediations. You can go anywhere and do anything. Many people remember flying in their dreams - freedom from the physical form.

When you wake up - returning your consciousness to your physical body - you generally forget most of your dreams. As you feel yourself 'falling' back into your physical body you slowly awaken. This is your consciousness moving descending into 3D. There are days you may not feel your consciousness completely back in your body at all. Actually it is never fully in third dimension. Only an aspect of it is here as you sit there reading this. The rest of you is off having other experiences - which - as we move into higher frequency - are starting to merge - more deja vu - seeing between dimensions - temporal amonalies - and more paranormal experiences.

Sometimes an entire programs shifts all at once. This occurred on September 11, 2001 with the World Trade Center attack. For days, weeks, months, people were in shock and unable to come fully into their bodies - bringing their conscious awareness into this changed frequency program.

Our grid program - coming from one central source - follows a specific blueprint which repeats over and over again endlessly. Fractal Theory. The creative consciousness - source of light - creates program after program based on the same fundamental geometry called Sacred Geometry.

We live in third dimension - the polarity grid - EM energies - our auras. Everything in this program will contain polar opposites. We have god and evil - male and female - good gods and bad gods - everything has an opposite. Even our Soul Mates - Twin Flames are part of that duality. Your polar opposite in the other aspect of your soul that did not enter into the third dimensional program but waits above in higher frequency.

The program has an interesting failsafe. It understands that in third dimension the souls will forget that it is all a program/ game/ experience/ experiment. It realizes that it must leave clues to help the souls in third dimension remember that they are spirits having a physical experience.

The program creates Archetypes and Metaphors which enable souls to awaken and remember that one program is about to terminate and another germinate. More to the point - the souls remove their consciousness from their physical bodies and go to higher frequency forms. You are much more than the person sitting in that chair reading this. You are a soul spark created from a source of light who has spiraled through consciousness into third dimension to experience.

You are aware that psychics like myself and my friend, John Edward, can talk to souls who have crossed over, simply by connecting with their frequency signatures. Every soul has their one unique signature - like a fingerprint. The soul 'on the other side' has the same signature but is no longer is in a physical body.

So now comes the time in our programmed reality when the grids send us information to help us remember that change is about to occur for all souls. It provides clues.
One such clue is the planet Nibiru.

Time is just an illusion created by the EM programs of 3D. Planet 'X' - when you drawn horizontal lines across the top and bottom of the 'X' you have the hourglass. When the upper portion descends into the lower portion - it creates the Star of David - or Merkabah - rotation and spin - frequency. 'X' also is the Roman numeral 10=1+0=1=New Beginnings.

I have been to Nibiru alone - and with friends - while remote viewing. When you remote view - or meditate - travel consciously through the grids - you move faster than the speed of light and can go into any part of the program.

[continued...]

Last edited by Enki, 1/13/2005, 10:40 pm

[TheVoyeurist]

>

In science when we say something one has to refer a referential system. Consider a sophisticated video game with artificial intelligence animating creatures: for us, OUTSIDE the video game system it's just a simulation, but for the objects inside the game it's REAL.


Has anyone heard about the new system of AI in video gaming? It's called 'Radiant Artifical Intelligence' (RAI) and will be featured in the The Elder Scrolls IV:Oblivion. It gives non-player characters (NPCs) the ability to make their own choices based on the world around them. They will be able to think and react independently of scripts in a global system that governs their every action.

I think eventually as technology and pop-culture advances, the philosophies of Jean Baudrillard and Nick Bostrom are inevitably ubiquitous in our rousing future.

[Stanislaw]

soon the visions of Lem will come to pass, and well, it be a damn interesting place!

I think though that AI is in a sense a contradiction...I mean one can program a machine to argue that it is sentient and intelligent, but is it really since it is not something it has created on its own, even if it could argue so well, that you couldn't logically deny its intelligence, would it really be sentient if this sentients is just simulated?