What value do you navigate by?

[coberst]

What value do you navigate by?

It appears to me that we sapiens need a “North Star” upon which to fix our voyage. We need a reference point upon which we can focus our attention when trying to determine what of value we can and should do in life.

Religion, or God, serves as the compass for some people; for others it is nationalism; for others the guiding value is to own as much good stuff as possible; to others it is power; for some it is family; and I guess there are many other such ultimate values.

I have tried to examine my inner voices to determine just what my primary value is and does it need to be changed. I have determined that, by some turn of events, perhaps completely willy-nilly, my value North Star is life on this planet. My guidance for fixing value is ultimately dependent upon its aiding or hindering life on this planet.

I often speculate that human life is a hindrance to maximizing the ‘good life’, of all life, on this planet. I often speculate that if all life on this planet were given a vote in this matter that they would throw sapiens overboard.

What do you think?

coberstakaDutchuncle

[grotto]

Value is a man made notion to justify his actions.

Who is it that is examining that inner voice and who is it that can change and to what notion are you changing it? All of it is a willy-nilly notion that will keep you chasing a new ideal based on an artificial value that you continue to alter.

So do you change to fit some new value, or do you value what it is that you have made yourself into? What is left of your thoughts when you no longer hold a value on anything? What is there to be seen when what is seen isn’t judged by a perception of value?

[billyjack]

my value north star would be preserving, fulfilling, and enjoying my life. doing so naturally makes all life on this planet of the utmost importance to me as well.

[Uberzensch]

I have tried to examine my inner voices to determine just what my primary value is and does it need to be changed. I have determined that, by some turn of events, perhaps completely willy-nilly, my value North Star is life on this planet. My guidance for fixing value is ultimately dependent upon its aiding or hindering life on this planet.


One of my "North Stars" is to not have will-nilly north stars!

Seriously, though, I do think it is important that we intentionally choose those values that guide us. All too often, we merely accept what we were raised with. That could be the religious beliefs or political views of our families, or even the commonly held notions of a free and equal society or supporting all life on this planet.

Whatever your values, be sure they are, in fact, your values.

[coberst]

Beauty and morality are species of values.

George Santayana says that “all values must be ultimately intrinsic”. He adds that the good, i.e. that which is desired, is good because of its consequences.

Aesthetics is about the perception of values. Aesthetic judgments “are mainly positive, that is, perceptions of good, moral judgments are mainly and fundamentally negative, or perceptions of evil…in the perception of beauty, our judgment is necessarily intrinsic and based on the character of the immediate experience, and never consciously on the idea of an eventual utility in the object, judgments about moral worth, on the contrary, are always based, when they are positive, upon the consciousness of benefits probably involved.”

“Morality is a means and not an end; that it is the price of human non-adaptation, and the consequence of the original sin of unfitness. It is the compression of human conduct within the narrow limits of the safe and possible. Remove danger, remove pain, remove the occasion of pity, and the need of morality is gone. To say “thou shalt not” would then be impertinence.”

If we think about it we can see herein why our moral consciousness recedes as our luxuries increase, and we can see why caring for another is more the characteristic of those who have little and is of lesser value to those who have much.

Quotes from [i]The Sense of Beauty: Being The Outlines of Aesthetic Theory[i] by George Santayana

[billl]

is this you or Santayana talking?:
"If we think about it we can see herein why our moral consciousness recedes as our luxuries increase, and we can see why caring for another is more the characteristic of those who have little and is of lesser value to those who have much."

yeah, but sometimes a desperately poor person might turn to theft, even stealing from people who are even worse off. day after day of surviving thru theft, deception, and insincerity towards others. yeah, give them a kid that they're supporting, and they're robin hood--but that's not always the case. also, rich families seem to produce some enthusiastic young peace corps volunteers, activists of all kinds, etc., and it might even be because all the toys and the struggle to survive just aren't interesting anymore.

but this is an interesting statement, with some truth to it, for sure. and i don't mean to ignore that it's (at least half-way) expressed as a generalization. it'll be interesting to see, if technology ever manages to give us everything we might want, whether people start to care more about how they treat each other, and surprise each other with their different perspectives--or if they end up just getting kicks from playing practical jokes, mentally dominating each other, and pushing each other away.

or maybe it'd get real cliquish. no matter how rich or poor people might be, there'll still be room for shunning or shaming somebody. immorality seems to be able to stick around, even when it's not needed anymore.

[coberst]

is this you or Santayana talking?:
"If we think about it we can see herein why our moral consciousness recedes as our luxuries increase, and we can see why caring for another is more the characteristic of those who have little and is of lesser value to those who have much."


I use standard punctuation. When I use the words of someone else I enclose the statement with "quotation marks".

[PoeticPassions]

My guiding value, so to speak, is LOVE. Love for humanity, for myself, for life, for the planet, and so on.

I often think that morality is something we created to alleviate chaos. Nietzsche said that "fear is the mother of morality," and I am leaning toward agreeing with him. Morals are fluid, subjective, relative.

Humans surely need them as they need some type of guidance or faith. It is difficult for one to realize that he or she is completely alone and has no control over the randomness of the universe. I find more comfort in this thought than in the idea of "God" or some predetermined destiny, but I believe many don't.

[billl]

I use standard punctuation. When I use the words of someone else I enclose the statement with "quotation marks".

sorry coberst, i really wasn't sure, but maybe my super-brief question about it seemed a little aggressive.:(

really, the reason i asked was because there was the sudden appearance of bold text, right after a paragraph that was using non-standard punctuation (single quotes should be used when quoting within a quotation).

but, again, sorry, i should have known better than to express my confusion so tersely.

[paisleypost]

Mine is kindness.

[BienvenuJDC]

I believe that if there isn't a set unmovable standard, then anyone who develops enough power can "adjust" morality to their own liking. i.e. Hitler's justification for the holocaust.
What makes something right/wrong? Popular opinion? Then those in the short story "The Lottery" are justified in stoning one among them because of tradition. So then...

What makes something right/wrong?

[jinjang]

What value do you navigate by?
You have been posting deep questions, all of which require careful and lengthy thinking. I dared not answer many questions but thought of them often. I will attempt to answer this one.

My own values that I live by:

1. Friendship at earlier ages
2. Platonic love and friendship before marriage
3. Religion and humanitarian love before losing the religion
4. After marriage, family and inner peace in personal level and peaceful co-existence between humans and between humans and animals in broader level
5. Best efforts on what I do

I praise European countries with the regulation to limit the city boundaries for nature and animals. I drive an energy-efficient car, use energy-efficient appliances, recycle as much as I can, and help others whenever I can.

Seeking inner peace means to avoid pettiness and unnecessary conflicts with people in my own bubble and to try to forget and to forgive any offenses. I walk, meditate, and forget troubles impossible to solve.

[Uberzensch]

What makes something right/wrong?

You do.

[coberst]

You have been posting deep questions, all of which require careful and lengthy thinking. I dared not answer many questions but thought of them often. I will attempt to answer this one.

.


Excellent! That is my reason for posting these threads. Generally I include a book as reference in the hope that the reader might go to the books for further points of view.

[beroq]

Traditional guidelines set by the civilization I live in and the Religion I follow.

[blazeofglory]

What value do you navigate by?

It appears to me that we sapiens need a “North Star” upon which to fix our voyage. We need a reference point upon which we can focus our attention when trying to determine what of value we can and should do in life.

Religion, or God, serves as the compass for some people; for others it is nationalism; for others the guiding value is to own as much good stuff as possible; to others it is power; for some it is family; and I guess there are many other such ultimate values.

I have tried to examine my inner voices to determine just what my primary value is and does it need to be changed. I have determined that, by some turn of events, perhaps completely willy-nilly, my value North Star is life on this planet. My guidance for fixing value is ultimately dependent upon its aiding or hindering life on this planet.

I often speculate that human life is a hindrance to maximizing the ‘good life’, of all life, on this planet. I often speculate that if all life on this planet were given a vote in this matter that they would throw sapiens overboard.

What do you think?

coberstakaDutchuncle

No statements could better speak of my mind! You spoke up all and nothing remains left!

I endorse this idea fully. I feel at the bottom of my heart all that you put in print here.

We sapiens are destroyers of all vitalities. Nature I think will throw all of us overboard to have it rebalanced. We humans have monopolized or harnessed all resources irrationally.

I feel very sad about the fact that we are ruthlessly destroying natural environments, habitats. We have armed ourselves with all arsenals, weaponries to put them under our heels.

I am set against all these civilzational ideas. We could be happier in a natural environment than in this modern civilization.

[jinjang]

While I do understand pessimistic view on human existence, I also consider our rarity in the universe. We should continue surviving, though undeserving many of us are, and continue improving our science and technology to explore the universe and to learn about why we exist at all in this vast expanding space.

[billl]

Thanks for the positive viewpoint, jinjang. I'll run with the banner a bit more. (Hope I don't go the wrong way too much!)

We need to protect this beautiful planet, it's shameful how things are going. There's a growing Green movement, and we definitely need to live more 'holistically'' (if that's the best word). But let's get off of the planet, too, so we can make our 'messes' elsewhere. Earth can be our garden, and properly valued as such. A living garden, a mother, our birthplace. It's just getting to be time for us to get out of the house a bit.

Maybe we can do the bulk (or, someday, all) of our our art, technology, and manipulation of materials out there somewhere. I value our ability to 'overcome' nature, and pour out our symbols and odd creations, and make mistakes along the way. It's much more interesting than always freezing (or dancing) in a sort of oneness with what nature desires of us, perfection in submission. It's maybe why we're here, it's a frontier peculiar to our species: to pop out of the Gaian trance and create something unusual, from time to time, in a greatly-accelerated mutation/evolution that doesn't quite fit--from the source, in-formed, and venturing outward, mixing will and possibility, enjoying passion, abundance, and making plans. And maybe not meshing with the surroundings so well. :argue:

The rational mind, and all of our thinking and experimenting and creating just makes a terrible mess of this beautiful place, as often as not. Yet, in visions, dreams, and other revelations, Gaia herself helps us along on this path.

Of course, we'll likely face a similar dilemma once we really establish ourselves out there in space, (or, less-appealingly perhaps, in virtual reality somewhere) but there'll be a lot more room. I'm not advocating making the universe our junkyard, of course, however we might (for a while, at least) make a mess of things out there, too, and screw up some nice views maybe. But it'd be a lot easier to avoid wiping out so much life. It'll buy us some more time, and--if reverence for Life and Beauty is our driving motivation--there's a chance we'll use it well.

[coberst]

jinjang and bill

You are living a dangerous fantasy. The fantasy is dangerous because with it in mind you become part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

[jinjang]

Maybe my posting was too short to deliver my meaning. I was inspired by our current international space programs - International Space Stations and Hubble telescope. Hubble telescope is a joint effort of NASA and European Space Agency.

Cosmos and Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan are also my inspiration.

Cosmos starts with this introduction:

The time will come when diligent research over long periods will bring to light things which now lie hidden. A single lifetime, even though entirely devoted to the sky, would not be enough for the investigation of so vast a subject... And so this knowledge will be unfolded only through long successive ages. There will come a time when our descendants will be amazed that we did not know things that are so plain to them.. Many discoveries are reserved for ages still to come, when memory of us will have been effaced. Our universe is a sorry little affair unless it has in it something for every age to investigate... Nature does not reveal her mysteries once and for all.
-Seneca, Natural Questions, Book 7, first century

After studying all his life about other planets, stars, the origins of matter, etc, he noticed the rarity of our planet and the rarity of us, the intelligent life form on Earth, and he turned his attention to our planet and wrote Pale Blue Dot.

Pale Blue Dot starts with this introduction:

We were wanderers from the beginning. We knew every stand of tree for a hundred miles. When the fruits or nuts were ripe, we were there. We followed the herds in their annual migrations. We rejoiced in fresh meat. Through stealth, feint, ambush, and main-force assault, a few of us cooperating accomplished what many of us, each hunting alone, could not. We depended on one another. Making it on our own was as ludicrous to imagine as was settling down.
Working together, we protected our children from the lions and the hyenas. We taught them the skills they would need. And the tools. Then, as now, technology was the key to our survival.

My "fantasy" is a fantasy if humans gave up on the space exploration.
They did not and they work on it, even as I write, slow and steady, while others killing each other or messing up the planet or resolving to be pessimistic. I am only sorry I am not part of that exploration.

[billl]

jinjang and bill

You are living a dangerous fantasy. The fantasy is dangerous because with it in mind you become part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

well, you're gonna have to explain yourself better than that! :)

I tried to address the problem you mentioned (homo sapiens being a destructive force on the planet). It's hard to make judgments about how humans might adapt to the problem (which, of course, even threatens us)--and the acceleration of technology and how we end up harnessing it are both wild cards. If you want to call this vision fantasy, well, I sort of agree. People used to fantasize about "flying machines", right, as well as all manner of things that didn't come to pass.

But why "dangerous fantasy"? How does it contribute to the problem?

[coberst]

Bill

The fantasy is your idea of traveling to another planet to live. You make the planet just another throw away commodity.

[billl]

OK, gotcha. I mentioned about that a bit, but remained optimistic that we'd have bought ourselves time AND still be operating on the reverence for life and beauty that motivated our journey off of our beautiful home-world. And THUS, carry the same reverence toward the other planets/asteroids/moons/comets/etc.

But there's also just the thirst for exploration, and the desire to survive, and the desire to expand, etc. Maybe we wouldn't care so much about the other worlds we go to, like you suggest. I'm optimistic that's not the case, though, and even if it were to be, we could always change our minds about it later on.

At first, we might find some junk out there, though (like an asteroid on a collision course with us, or maybe just some asteroid that we figure no one would miss) and use its resources to construct a space station, etc. In the meantime, we'd be gaining time to advance recycling/reusability methods, techniques for mitigating the damage our progress leaves in it's wake, and, just maybe overcoming the problem entirely, allowing us to go anywhere with little or no detrimental effects. But, even in the most optimistic scenario, there might be an early, clumsy, tragic history of beautiful things being wrecked...

I think we'll learn a lot of the lessons here on Earth, as we try not to strangle on our waste. But eventually, getting out there will give us a bit more time to deal with those worries. At the very least, the throw-away planet could be one that isn't teeming with life.

Really, the most interesting thing about it to me is the fact that we probably would develop the tech to use resources much more efficiently; harness renewable and cheap energy; and produce a lot less waste BEFORE we'd really be ready to venture very far in large numbers. Taking such a journey might require such techniques.

I'm with you completely regarding how it would be a shame to, instead of cleaning up our expectations of tech, just use the rest of the universe as a disposable commodity. And I'm fine with it if Mother Nature makes us stay in our rooms until we do our homework, before letting us go on to the next lessons.

I don't regard humanity as, by definition, a stain on existence. But, lacking respect and a sense of humility, we can obviously mess things up, tragically. A possible side-effect of our sometimes intoxicating, wonderful, creative, uniqueness... A side-effect that might very well keep us trapped here, for some time, if we don't bring our attention to it.