Classic and Skib - The Exchange

[skib]

First of all, that's not true and you know it. There really isn't that much fighting in hockey. Hockey players require actual skills, unlike bull and bronc riders who only have to have enough upper body strength to hold on (even though they're kind of tied in) and big enough spurs to piss of their animals. Let's award more points to the person who can jab his animal the most, yeah, that sounds good. :rolleyes:

Also, I don't drink Crown. Ew. It's all about the good rum. http://www.1-877-spirits.com/store/images/large/Appleton-Estate-VX-lg.jpg

My dear Classic! Of all people, I would have thought you would understand the skills required in staying on an animal that doesn't want you there. Bronc riding and bull riding is much more difficult than it appears. It does not require so much strength as it does balance and reflexes. It is all about adaptation to each animal, seeing as you only get one chance a night. I am not sure about the Canadian circuits, but I do know that there are limits to how large and what kind of spurs cowboys can use on the American circuits. Obviously, razor blades on rowels are not legal. You would be surprised how small of rowels most professional riders use. And as for just pissing the animal off- spurring is not required, but it does look good and gets extra points. Correction- spurring is required in saddle bronc, seeing as they have a little more 'staying-aboard' equipment than bareback or bullriders. Saddle bronc is about grace- you cannot just flop around like a ragdoll and expect to get a good score. Bareback and bulls, well, they're about the same (other than the animals employed), but the skill is in staying aboard, as you have nothing to hold onto but the rigging.
I never said hockey players did not have skill! I was merely responding to a less than desirable jab in a manner probably not appropriate.
My apologies for that shpiel. It was totally not relevant . . .

SO! in a nutshell- Classic, I disagree with your assessment!:p

And I couldn't name any good rums, much less Canadian ones so I grabbed the first Canadian liquor I thought of.

[*Classic*Charm*]

My dear Classic! Of all people, I would have thought you would understand the skills required in staying on an animal that doesn't want you there. Bronc riding and bull riding is much more difficult than it appears. It does not require so much strength as it does balance and reflexes. It is all about adaptation to each animal, seeing as you only get one chance a night. I am not sure about the Canadian circuits, but I do know that there are limits to how large and what kind of spurs cowboys can use on the American circuits. Obviously, razor blades on rowels are not legal. You would be surprised how small of rowels most professional riders use. And as for just pissing the animal off- spurring is not required, but it does look good and gets extra points. Correction- spurring is required in saddle bronc, seeing as they have a little more 'staying-aboard' equipment than bareback or bullriders. Saddle bronc is about grace- you cannot just flop around like a ragdoll and expect to get a good score. Bareback and bulls, well, they're about the same (other than the animals employed), but the skill is in staying aboard, as you have nothing to hold onto but the rigging.
I never said hockey players did not have skill! I was merely responding to a less than desirable jab in a manner probably not appropriate.
My apologies for that shpiel. It was totally not relevant . . .

SO! in a nutshell- Classic, I disagree with your assessment!:p

And I couldn't name any good rums, much less Canadian ones so I grabbed the first Canadian liquor I thought of.

My darling Skib! Yes, I can certainly appreciate the skills required to stay on the back of an animal that doesn't want you there. My issue with the sport is that the competitor is trying to stay on the animal while encouraging it to try harder to get him off. Seems a touch contradictory and unfair, no? I'll agree with you- I'm sure it does require a lot of balance and is probably quite difficult, though I don't see how this is something one can be scored on! What is the merit of getting extra marks for more spurring? And within that, what is the point of having bigger spurs? I won't be a hypocrite- I have worn and will continue to wear spurs when I ride, but I can give a solid reason as to their purpose and proper use. What exactly is the purpose of having razor blades on rowels? Or having rowels at all?

So- in a nutshell, Skib, I just don't see the point of doing this at all, let alone how it can be considered a sport.

And don't worry, I'm really not at all concerned about your hockey comments. I'm just getting defensive about that for the fun of it ;)

[skib]

My darling Skib! Yes, I can certainly appreciate the skills required to stay on the back of an animal that doesn't want you there. My issue with the sport is that the competitor is trying to stay on the animal while encouraging it to try harder to get him off. Seems a touch contradictory and unfair, no? I'll agree with you- I'm sure it does require a lot of balance and is probably quite difficult, though I don't see how this is something one can be scored on! What is the merit of getting extra marks for more spurring? And within that, what is the point of having bigger spurs? I won't be a hypocrite- I have worn and will continue to wear spurs when I ride, but I can give a solid reason as to their purpose and proper use. What exactly is the purpose of having razor blades on rowels? Or having rowels at all?

So- in a nutshell, Skib, I just don't see the point of doing this at all, let alone how it can be considered a sport.

And don't worry, I'm really not at all concerned about your hockey comments. I'm just getting defensive about that for the fun of it ;)

My wonderful Classic- I am rather enjoying this banter!

I was kidding about the razors on the rowels- nobody in their right mind would ever do that to an animal. Bigger spurs don't really do anything- most people that wear hugemongous spurs wear them for show (and people like me laugh at them). The purpose of rowels is to keep the spurs rolling- otherwise an animal might get cut and PETA would have a fit.
Since we're here, I might as well elaborate on the scoring system- a cowboy is scored based off his performance, and the performance of the animal he is riding. There are two influences on the ride- how well the cowboy handles the ride, and how well (hard) the animal bucks. If the cowboy has a poorly performing animal, spurring will often help get the animals heels up, which helps out on that scoring section of the ride. However, if a cowboy rides an animal that is bucking very hard, yet rides poorly, he will not receive a good score. Spurring is an attempt at getting the very best performance out of an animal. Each half of the ride (cowboy and animal) is based out of 50 points, the total possible amount being 100 points. As far as I'm aware there has never been a 100 point ride, not that that is really relevant . . .

And now I completely lost my train of thought and what I was saying-
so, your bit about spurring an animal to get him off but trying to stay on- you're thinking makes perfect sense. It is terribly contradictory! You have to be a little off in the head to understand and enjoy the sport. Yet, I stand by my opinion that it truly is a sport!
The animals and riders are all athletes, and there is a competition among them to be the best. So that's my shpiel, for what its worth!

:D:D:D

[*Classic*Charm*]

My wonderful Classic- I am rather enjoying this banter!

I was kidding about the razors on the rowels- nobody in their right mind would ever do that to an animal. Bigger spurs don't really do anything- most people that wear hugemongous spurs wear them for show (and people like me laugh at them). The purpose of rowels is to keep the spurs rolling- otherwise an animal might get cut and PETA would have a fit.
Since we're here, I might as well elaborate on the scoring system- a cowboy is scored based off his performance, and the performance of the animal he is riding. There are two influences on the ride- how well the cowboy handles the ride, and how well (hard) the animal bucks. If the cowboy has a poorly performing animal, spurring will often help get the animals heels up, which helps out on that scoring section of the ride. However, if a cowboy rides an animal that is bucking very hard, yet rides poorly, he will not receive a good score. Spurring is an attempt at getting the very best performance out of an animal. Each half of the ride (cowboy and animal) is based out of 50 points, the total possible amount being 100 points. As far as I'm aware there has never been a 100 point ride, not that that is really relevant . . .

And now I completely lost my train of thought and what I was saying-
so, your bit about spurring an animal to get him off but trying to stay on- you're thinking makes perfect sense. It is terribly contradictory! You have to be a little off in the head to understand and enjoy the sport. Yet, I stand by my opinion that it truly is a sport!
The animals and riders are all athletes, and there is a competition among them to be the best. So that's my shpiel, for what its worth!

:D:D:D

My lovely Skib- sorry for the delay, I've been laid up for a few days.

I really don't how how a rowel prevents cutting- it's a wheel with spikes on it! If the spur were blunt-ended enough, there wouldn't be much of a chance of it cutting the horse! Thanks for the scoring breakdown, that's pretty much how I understood it to be marked. I suppose I just don't understand how bucking is exhibiting athletic ability. Trust me- I'm not saying under any circumstances that horses aren't athletes! Bucking is a defensive reaction when an animal is being attacked, and I don't think that an exhibition of how well an animal can defend itself is a sport. Cutting horses show athletic ability, reining horses show athletic ability, broncs are only showing how well they can defend themselves from attackers, and I think making a "sport" out of that isn't right. But that's just me :) Next question: how does a cowboy have a good ride? What makes one ride better than another?

[skib]

My lovely Skib- sorry for the delay, I've been laid up for a few days.

I really don't how how a rowel prevents cutting- it's a wheel with spikes on it! If the spur were blunt-ended enough, there wouldn't be much of a chance of it cutting the horse! Thanks for the scoring breakdown, that's pretty much how I understood it to be marked. I suppose I just don't understand how bucking is exhibiting athletic ability. Trust me- I'm not saying under any circumstances that horses aren't athletes! Bucking is a defensive reaction when an animal is being attacked, and I don't think that an exhibition of how well an animal can defend itself is a sport. Cutting horses show athletic ability, reining horses show athletic ability, broncs are only showing how well they can defend themselves from attackers, and I think making a "sport" out of that isn't right. But that's just me :) Next question: how does a cowboy have a good ride? What makes one ride better than another?

My sparkling Classic,
(No fears, I knew you'd be back!)
Rowels are incredibly dull. Even though horses have relatively thin hides, they are still tougher than ours. Aside from that, sharp spurs were outlawed sometime in the eighties, I believe . . . though don't hold me to that one.
Bucking is of course a defensive 'maneuver' so to speak. Thus, the harder a horse bucks, the harder it is to stay on. Bronc riding is based off the traditional method of breaking green horses enough to be trained. Any more, that method of breaking horses is gone and replaced, but the skill of breaking them is one that will not be forgotten. (there, that's another repeat in history for ya! :D) Any more, bucking stock is bred to do just that- buck. It's a whole business that doesn't really interest me, nor will I pretend to know diddly squat about it. The idea of bucking stock being athletes is surely an opinion that deserves respect! (I do see your point, though. Bucking takes no skill at all on a horses part- it is all on the cowboy to stay on.)

to your next question- It all depends on what kind of riding it is- saddle bronc is the one that requires more grace than anything. A good saddle bronc ride requires good spurring action- all the way from the front of the shoulder back to the flanks. The rider has his muzzle rope, and his free hand is not allowed to touch the animal AT ALL. Even an accidental slap will disqualify that ride. When the horse is coming out of the chute, (and this is universal with saddle, bareback, and bulls) the cowboy's feet have to be in front of the shoulder until the animal begins to buck. That not happening will disqualify the rider as well.
Bareback bronc is more of a ragdoll flop with some balance thrown into it- the cowboy has his rigging which is strapped around the chest and pulled tight- he has no other means of holding on. Spurring will help a cowboy's score, but it is not required in bareback. The cowboy has to keep his balance and keep his free hand in check until the buzzer.
Bullriding is basically the same as bareback, just on a bull, obviously. :)
And the MOST IMPORTANT part of any ride is- 8 seconds. If the rider does not make it to the eight second mark, he gets no score.

I apologize if that made no sense- I popped another 600 milligrams of Ibuprofen a half hour ago and I'm a bit loopy, so that whole speech might make absolutely no sense at all.
Did that answer your question? if not I'll wait until I' thinking clearly again and PM you the correct answer. :)

[Scheherazade]

Moved these posts into a separate thread because I think it is a shame to let them get buried in the dark and dusty archives of the "The Blokes' Thread".

Happy writing, you two! :)

[*Classic*Charm*]

My most revered Scher,

I promise to stay out of the Blokes' thread :D

[skib]

But if the women didn't invade we wouldn't have anyone to argue with . . .

[*Classic*Charm*]

My sparkling Classic,
(No fears, I knew you'd be back!)
Rowels are incredibly dull. Even though horses have relatively thin hides, they are still tougher than ours. Aside from that, sharp spurs were outlawed sometime in the eighties, I believe . . . though don't hold me to that one.
Bucking is of course a defensive 'maneuver' so to speak. Thus, the harder a horse bucks, the harder it is to stay on. Bronc riding is based off the traditional method of breaking green horses enough to be trained. Any more, that method of breaking horses is gone and replaced, but the skill of breaking them is one that will not be forgotten. (there, that's another repeat in history for ya! :D) Any more, bucking stock is bred to do just that- buck. It's a whole business that doesn't really interest me, nor will I pretend to know diddly squat about it. The idea of bucking stock being athletes is surely an opinion that deserves respect! (I do see your point, though. Bucking takes no skill at all on a horses part- it is all on the cowboy to stay on.)

to your next question- It all depends on what kind of riding it is- saddle bronc is the one that requires more grace than anything. A good saddle bronc ride requires good spurring action- all the way from the front of the shoulder back to the flanks. The rider has his muzzle rope, and his free hand is not allowed to touch the animal AT ALL. Even an accidental slap will disqualify that ride. When the horse is coming out of the chute, (and this is universal with saddle, bareback, and bulls) the cowboy's feet have to be in front of the shoulder until the animal begins to buck. That not happening will disqualify the rider as well.
Bareback bronc is more of a ragdoll flop with some balance thrown into it- the cowboy has his rigging which is strapped around the chest and pulled tight- he has no other means of holding on. Spurring will help a cowboy's score, but it is not required in bareback. The cowboy has to keep his balance and keep his free hand in check until the buzzer.
Bullriding is basically the same as bareback, just on a bull, obviously. :)
And the MOST IMPORTANT part of any ride is- 8 seconds. If the rider does not make it to the eight second mark, he gets no score.

I apologize if that made no sense- I popped another 600 milligrams of Ibuprofen a half hour ago and I'm a bit loopy, so that whole speech might make absolutely no sense at all.
Did that answer your question? if not I'll wait until I' thinking clearly again and PM you the correct answer. :)

My charming Skib-

This topic is extremely perplexing. I just don't get it! It doesn't matter how sharp a spur is- it can still cut the hide. Even the short, blunt-ended spurs english riders wear can cut through. The thought of spurring a horse from shoulder to flank with a swinging leg and putting deliberate force into it terrifies me! Broncs don't wear bits do they? I hope not. Also, how frequently do these animals sustain injuries? I would assume that with the flopping rider on top, their centre of balance must be all over the place?

And I know you said you don't know anything about the business, so I suppose this question is rhetorical, but how do you breed horses to buck? Are the animals just aggressive in general? Are broncs typically mares or studs or geldings?

Ha, yes, if there's one thing I'm aware of, it's the eight second rule. Whenever I came home form the barn and said that I'd fallen off, my dad's first question was always "But did you make it to the buzzer?" :rolleyes:

[a_little_wisp]

I'm wondering how many endearments you two can come up with to start those responses off with. :lol:

"My charming -"
"My dearest - "

"My beloved-"
"Ma cherie - "
"My delectable -"
"My treasure - "
"My rose-"
"My cherub..."

Can't wait!!:lol::lol:

[kevinthediltz]

I think this can only be ended in one way.... Cage fight.

[*Classic*Charm*]

I think this can only be ended in one way.... Cage fight.


I could take him.

[kevinthediltz]

I dont doubt it. All you have to do is start to lift up your shirt, he will be inticed, then you kick him in the crotch...

[a_little_wisp]

Less than that, I think. Just give'm a gorgeous smile and tell him to let you win.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Come on now! Give the man a little credit!

He'll keep arguing that bronc riding is a sport, and Ill keep shooting him down. And eventually he'll realize that the only real athletes on horseback are the ones that jump over stuff :D

[kevinthediltz]

Oh that was low classic. :lol:

[*Classic*Charm*]

What? I thought I'd be nice and let him lose on the merit of his arguments ;) :D

Feel free to chime in Kevin!

[BienvenuJDC]

I don't know...I heard his arguments, and it seems that he knows what he's talking about. I'm not well informed on the rodeo games, but he seems to be. ...skib, am I wrong? ...but it seems to me that Classic has gotten caught up in misinformation and stereotypes!!

...and by the way, Classic...it is ........row-dee-o...NOT row-day-o...

[skib]

My charming Skib-

This topic is extremely perplexing. I just don't get it! It doesn't matter how sharp a spur is- it can still cut the hide. Even the short, blunt-ended spurs english riders wear can cut through. The thought of spurring a horse from shoulder to flank with a swinging leg and putting deliberate force into it terrifies me! Broncs don't wear bits do they? I hope not. Also, how frequently do these animals sustain injuries? I would assume that with the flopping rider on top, their centre of balance must be all over the place?

And I know you said you don't know anything about the business, so I suppose this question is rhetorical, but how do you breed horses to buck? Are the animals just aggressive in general? Are broncs typically mares or studs or geldings?

Ha, yes, if there's one thing I'm aware of, it's the eight second rule. Whenever I came home form the barn and said that I'd fallen off, my dad's first question was always "But did you make it to the buzzer?" :rolleyes:

My . . . (crap, I'm running out of adjectives as well . . .) my . . . beloved Classic!
Yes, with the amount of force most riders put on their spurs, it is quite possible to cut a horse. No, broncs don't wear bits. The saddle broncs have basically a halter with a short lead rope on them. The bareback broncs don't have much of anything but a tickler and the cowboy's rigging on them.
To be totally honest, I don't think the animals suffer much injuries at all, other than the self-induced ones. I've been to a few rodeos where the animals ran headlong into the gates and bucked hard enough to knock themselves over, but equally fair, I'm not the vet checking up on the animals after their rides either. :D
And neither am I a horse, so I can't truthfully answer the balance question. I do know that the few broncs I've ridden did not have much issue getting me off. Neither did the bull. I would imagine though, that with a person up on top of them, their balance is thrown off somewhat. They don't fall down as much as one would guess.
As for the breeding- I don't have the vaguest idea how they determine what genes make for a bucking horse, but I would guess once they figure it out, they find a good bucking stud and a good bucking mare, and nature does it's business, and you end up with a bucking foal. :nod: very scientific stuff, that.
No, you'd be surprised how laid back most bucking stock is. They have a relatively easy life- work for eight seconds a week at most during rodeo season, and get fed well the rest of the year. They know when they need to perform, seeing as it is just about the only time they leave pasture. The studs obviously might get a little aggressive once in a while, but in my limited experience with bucking horses, they are not pissy all the time. Some of the best broncs I've ever seen were mares. I don't think the stock contractors are particularly picky- they want an animal that will perform. Whether or not it's got hangy-downs is not really an issue. Don' t hold me to that though, because I'm just making assumptions. Yes, I am an *** in case you were wondering. :) Just ask Kevin.
Here's my question- did you make the buzzer?


I don't know...I heard his arguments, and it seems that he knows what he's talking about. I'm not well informed on the rodeo games, but he seems to be. ...skib, am I wrong? ...but it seems to me that Classic has gotten caught up in misinformation and stereotypes!!

Yup, its me!

[*Classic*Charm*]

My . . . (crap, I'm running out of adjectives as well . . .) my . . . beloved Classic!
Yes, with the amount of force most riders put on their spurs, it is quite possible to cut a horse. No, broncs don't wear bits. The saddle broncs have basically a halter with a short lead rope on them. The bareback broncs don't have much of anything but a tickler and the cowboy's rigging on them.
To be totally honest, I don't think the animals suffer much injuries at all, other than the self-induced ones. I've been to a few rodeos where the animals ran headlong into the gates and bucked hard enough to knock themselves over, but equally fair, I'm not the vet checking up on the animals after their rides either. :D
And neither am I a horse, so I can't truthfully answer the balance question. I do know that the few broncs I've ridden did not have much issue getting me off. Neither did the bull. I would imagine though, that with a person up on top of them, their balance is thrown off somewhat. They don't fall down as much as one would guess.
As for the breeding- I don't have the vaguest idea how they determine what genes make for a bucking horse, but I would guess once they figure it out, they find a good bucking stud and a good bucking mare, and nature does it's business, and you end up with a bucking foal. :nod: very scientific stuff, that.
No, you'd be surprised how laid back most bucking stock is. They have a relatively easy life- work for eight seconds a week at most during rodeo season, and get fed well the rest of the year. They know when they need to perform, seeing as it is just about the only time they leave pasture. The studs obviously might get a little aggressive once in a while, but in my limited experience with bucking horses, they are not pissy all the time. Some of the best broncs I've ever seen were mares. I don't think the stock contractors are particularly picky- they want an animal that will perform. Whether or not it's got hangy-downs is not really an issue. Don' t hold me to that though, because I'm just making assumptions. Yes, I am an *** in case you were wondering. :) Just ask Kevin.
Here's my question- did you make the buzzer?

My swashbuckling (yep, I pulled out the big guns) Skib-
Okay, I'm learning here! This is good.
It doesn't surprise me that mares make good broncs. They're pretty much b****y all the time anyways :rolleyes:. And no, you're not an *** at all.

My question still remains: at what point here does athletic ability become necessary here?

And to answer your question: I always make the buzzer.:idea:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=312&pictureid=4007

[kevinthediltz]

Upper and lower body strength, balance, coordnation... and so on.

I couldnt resist.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Upper and lower body strength

Okay, I can see upper to hold on. How lower? If the legs are flailing wildly to spur, what muscle strength is being used?


balance

I'll give you this one! ;)


coordnation... and so on.

I couldnt resist.

I don't see the coordination either.

[BienvenuJDC]

I can see coordination and balance going hand in hand...

[kevinthediltz]

Same coordination as it takes to jump. Moving with the horse.
The horse is moving unprdictably, at its own will, you need the speed and agility to correct in time or your over.
As far as lower body, not so much broc riding as others like bareback and bulls. But you do have to have the stregnth to kick your legs out and back well or suffer a poor score.

[skib]

My swashbuckling (yep, I pulled out the big guns) Skib-
Okay, I'm learning here! This is good.
It doesn't surprise me that mares make good broncs. They're pretty much b****y all the time anyways :rolleyes:. And no, you're not an *** at all.

My question still remains: at what point here does athletic ability become necessary here?

And to answer your question: I always make the buzzer.:idea:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=312&pictureid=4007

um :redface: . . . I'm having a hard time coming up with something to top that . . . my Daring and Dashing Classic! Or shall I pull a Shakespeare and put it as Darashing? No? It was worth a shot.

Oh my . . . the buzzer must have sounded right before you left the saddle?

Athletic ability comes in what Kevvy already said- arm strength. The free arm is thrown about to counteract the shocks of the bucking. The free arm has a lot to do with balance. As well, saddle bronc riders have the ability to use their knees- the knee is a pivot point. Other than adjusting to keep in time with the bucking, the knees don't really move much. With bareback and bulls, there is a LOT of strength required to stay balanced! Bulls especially, because their weight is more evenly distributed front to back, so they can move in any direction they please, whereas a bronc puts most of their weight on their front legs. (that was totally relevant!) The tie-hand and arm are what help position the body, for the most part. The free hand helps with rapid weight movement, but the wrapped hand is the one that does the majority of the body's positioning. I'm rambling again here.
Flexibility plays a huge role in roughstock. If you take a spill and your foot finds a need to wrap around your neck, it better well be prepared, or you're gonna end up like Crippled Up Jack. (Chris Ledoux reference, in case you're not a fan. I recall you not being much of a country music fan.)
That eight seconds take a lot more out of a guy than it should- not that I can say I've actually made eight seconds, but even my three point one kicked my ***.

[*Classic*Charm*]

um :redface: . . . I'm having a hard time coming up with something to top that . . . my Daring and Dashing Classic! Or shall I pull a Shakespeare and put it as Darashing? No? It was worth a shot.

Oh my . . . the buzzer must have sounded right before you left the saddle?

Athletic ability comes in what Kevvy already said- arm strength. The free arm is thrown about to counteract the shocks of the bucking. The free arm has a lot to do with balance. As well, saddle bronc riders have the ability to use their knees- the knee is a pivot point. Other than adjusting to keep in time with the bucking, the knees don't really move much. With bareback and bulls, there is a LOT of strength required to stay balanced! Bulls especially, because their weight is more evenly distributed front to back, so they can move in any direction they please, whereas a bronc puts most of their weight on their front legs. (that was totally relevant!) The tie-hand and arm are what help position the body, for the most part. The free hand helps with rapid weight movement, but the wrapped hand is the one that does the majority of the body's positioning. I'm rambling again here.
Flexibility plays a huge role in roughstock. If you take a spill and your foot finds a need to wrap around your neck, it better well be prepared, or you're gonna end up like Crippled Up Jack. (Chris Ledoux reference, in case you're not a fan. I recall you not being much of a country music fan.)
That eight seconds take a lot more out of a guy than it should- not that I can say I've actually made eight seconds, but even my three point one kicked my ***.

My Dauntless Skib-

I think I can let Darashing slide, just this once haha.
And that god there was no buzzer, because it takes a lot less than 8 seconds to hit the ground :sick: Poor Wacked- he deserved to drop me on this one.

Well, Skib, I think you might have me here. I can't really argue with the arm strength for balance, nor the upper leg strength if they're holding on from the knee up. And I sure as hell can't argue with the upper leg strength and balance needed for staying on an animal bareback.

Well, no, I can't imagine one would really want to end up with a foot wrapped around his neck if it weren't capable of being there. Also- even citing your reference doesn't help me- I've never heard of Chris Ledoux because you're right- I really really don't like country music.

Okay, okay, I suppose I can see where bull and bronc riders require strength, and I guess that makes them athletes. I am gonna stubbornly hold out and say that I really don't see a point to it all, but that's personal preference I suppose.

Gentlemen- I concede defeat!:rolleyes:

Well now what are we going to argue about?:p

[skib]

My flawless Classic-


We could discuss the practicality of jumping? :)

[kevinthediltz]

How about something simple?
Like the meaning of life?
Or the theroy of relitivity?

[skib]

**** off Kevin. :D

[kevinthediltz]

How about table branding vs old school branding?

[skib]

Okay. Any thoughts, Classic?

[The Walker]

well before you change the subjet let me tell you that your conversations has been educating. I'm not a big fun of that sport though, I'm almost of the same opinions as classic.
and Kev, man you are hilarious :lol:

[*Classic*Charm*]

My flawless Classic-


We could discuss the practicality of jumping? :)


Flawless?! Hot damn! How am I supposed to beat that? ;)

My tenacious Skib- jumping is really not practical at all, but by far the best idea anyone ever came up with :D



How about table branding vs old school branding?

Branding? As in, labeling your livestock branding? Ugh. That is a practice that seriously needs to be irradicated. Ad I have a feeling that neither of you are going to agree with me on that.

[skib]

My glowing Classic-

Pretty much. Ear tattoos are a pain in the a** to read and ear tags fall out more than one would like to think. Besides, branding is the only time of year people get to see their neighbors in some places.
(PS- whats tenacious mean?)

[The Walker]

tenacious: not easily pulled apart/ tough

[*Classic*Charm*]

My glowing Classic-

Pretty much. Ear tattoos are a pain in the a** to read and ear tags fall out more than one would like to think. Besides, branding is the only time of year people get to see their neighbors in some places.
(PS- whats tenacious mean?)

My endearing Skib-

I think ear tattoos are dumb too, but I think branding is worse. Ear tags are by far the best way to go. And getting to see the neighbours is a terrible justification for its merits.

Tenacious means "not easily dispelled or discouraged; persisting in existence or in a course of action; persistent, determined, steadfast" just like Walker said :)

[kevinthediltz]

Ok I do see where your coming from about outlawing branding. But on mixed ranges where cattle from 3 or 4 different properties are mixed, there is no better way. Plus a brand is more than a physical mark on a cow. Ranchers buy branding rights. Like buying a house. And its near as expensive.:lol: Like 5000 for a 10 year right. It would be impossible to make individual ear tags for every rancher out there. And if were talking about branding being cruel, what about cutting? :lol: I would rather be burnt that have my balls cut out. But those stupid little rubber bands that are supposed to cut off blood flow to the sack (technical term?) so it falls off naturally work as well as a hammer made out of a banana.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Ok I do see where your coming from about outlawing branding. But on mixed ranges where cattle from 3 or 4 different properties are mixed, there is no better way. Plus a brand is more than a physical mark on a cow. Ranchers buy branding rights. Like buying a house. And its near as expensive.:lol: Like 5000 for a 10 year right. It would be impossible to make individual ear tags for every rancher out there. And if were talking about branding being cruel, what about cutting? :lol: I would rather be burnt that have my balls cut out. But those stupid little rubber bands that are supposed to cut off blood flow to the sack (technical term?) so it falls off naturally work as well as a hammer made out of a banana.

Oh come on! There's no way there can be individual ear tags for every rancher and cow? Of course there can! Here the tags work like microchips- the tag gets scanned and it tells you everything. If there manages to be an individual microchip for every dog and cat, there can certainly be an ear tag for every cow. You even say that buying branding rights is expensive- ear tagging would probably be less so and able to track information about the cow as well, thereby being more useful than a burnt-in stamp.

I'll agree with you about the ways that ranchers castrate. Castration is actually a very simple procedure, but the only reason ranchers use those methods is because they don't want to pay for surgical castration, which is far more humane but more expensive.

[skib]

I don't know about the 'surgical' part, unless it qualifies as redneck surgery. A sharp pocket knife and a bucket is how I've always seen it done.

[*Classic*Charm*]

I don't know about the 'surgical' part, unless it qualifies as redneck surgery. A sharp pocket knife and a bucket is how I've always seen it done.

Are you serious?

I've heard of the rubber band, but not that. That's awful! How do they prevent infection? And manage pain?

Yeah, surgically it's a pretty quick procedure. But it uses a sedative and anesthetic, which is far nicer for the animal, but as I said, more expensive than a *cough* knife and bucket.

[kevinthediltz]

They are sprayed after they are cut. Prevents infection, and coulderizes (spelling) the wound. Its done with an exacto (surgical) knife.
As far as ear tags with micro chips being less expensive, no way. Either way you still have to buy rights to your cattle. Getting a couple of irons made costs like 200 bucks and will brand endless cattle and not wear out. Getting a microchip for each and every one of your cattle? I would have to think that might cost more than 200 bucks for a good sized operation. Ear tags work great for keeping YOUR cattle strait. Which ones are calving, yearlings (and any age), and so on. But when your out splitting a herd that has mixed cattle, you cant be dismounting and scanning everyone you come across then moving it to the side. A brand is a quick and easy way to identify livestock. We still use tags here, but as I said before, its to keep our own cattle strait.

[*Classic*Charm*]

They are sprayed after they are cut. Prevents infection, and coulderizes (spelling) the wound. Its done with an exacto (surgical) knife.
As far as ear tags with micro chips being less expensive, no way. Either way you still have to buy rights to your cattle. Getting a couple of irons made costs like 200 bucks and will brand endless cattle and not wear out. Getting a microchip for each and every one of your cattle? I would have to think that might cost more than 200 bucks for a good sized operation. Ear tags work great for keeping YOUR cattle strait. Which ones are calving, yearlings (and any age), and so on. But when your out splitting a herd that has mixed cattle, you cant be dismounting and scanning everyone you come across then moving it to the side. A brand is a quick and easy way to identify livestock. We still use tags here, but as I said before, its to keep our own cattle strait.

Aaaannnnddd the pain? ;)

[kevinthediltz]

Aaaannnnddd the pain? ;)

They forget about it soon enough.

[*Classic*Charm*]

They forget about it soon enough.

That makes it okay? They forget about it?

And you're telling me that a cow that has been branded wouldn't be upset by the smell of burning flesh and the sounds of other cows in pain from branding? They don't forget everything.

That's like saying we should continue to "train" horses by beating them into submission. It's fine- they forget?

[IJustMadeThatUp]

That makes it okay? They forget about it?

And you're telling me that a cow that has been branded wouldn't be upset by the smell of burning flesh and the sounds of other cows in pain from branding? They don't forget everything.

That's like saying we should continue to "train" horses by beating them into submission. It's fine- they forget?

I've been following your debate, very educating :D

This reminds me of the mulesing debate, it's about creating a balance between time and cost efficiency for the farmer/rancher and what is best for the animal. Sure branding, mulesing and castrating practices are cruel but you can't stop people from doing it by saying that, viable alternatives have to be offered. They can't just be more pleasant for the animal either, they have to be practical for the people investing their time and money into the animal.

[kevinthediltz]

Training horses by beating them is a terrible way to train a horse. Not only beacuse it is cruel but because then the horse does what you want through fear instead of reward. Cattle are not smart enough to be trained to stay in one place. I have many scars from burns on my body and I dont feel bitter about it. (One was a quarter that came out of a fire and put on my arm against my wishes.) I dont believe that cattle are smart enough to be moraly bothered by the smell of burning hair. As for screaming, only the calves scream and they scream at everything. I have seen bison charge through slide gates in the chutes and KNOCK THEIR OWN HORNS OFF and not utter a word. Then when the next gate opens, they do the same thing... charge through with fresh blood on their heads. It doesnt seem to bother them, and bison are much smarter than cows. Cattle are instinctable. Branding is a surface scar. No real damage. And if it prevents a cow from being stolen and slaughtered with a rusty buck knife, I think a few minutes of pain is worth it.

And our livestock manager just called the house and I told him about this and he informed me that the spray that we use (for cutting and branding as well as tumors and other things like that) contains a form of alcohol (or some F-in ohol as he put it) that helps numb pain as well as clot blood.

[prendrelemick]

We're having to electronically tag all our sheep. In fact All sheep in Europe are supposed to be tagged by the end of the year. That's millions and millions of expensive tags that no one will ever read. :flare:

But back to the thread. What about freeze branding ? Our ponies have been done and dairy cattle are often branded in this way. Of course it wouldn't work with white cattle.

[kevinthediltz]

We freeze brand our horses but thats about it.
That sure is a bother getting all those sheep tagged.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Oh goodness we've gone mainstream. Hello, General Chat.
Not getting too upset with me, are you Kevin? ;)


Training horses by beating them is a terrible way to train a horse. Not only beacuse it is cruel but because then the horse does what you want through fear instead of reward.

No argument there whatsoever.


Cattle are not smart enough to be trained to stay in one place. I have many scars from burns on my body and I dont feel bitter about it. (One was a quarter that came out of a fire and put on my arm against my wishes.)

You also have the ability to reasonably analyze the situation, think "Ow that hurt. Better not let that happen again" and move on. A cow doesn't. All it knows is it's being removed from the herd, restrained against it's will, and feels pain.

Question for you though, how old are cattle when they're branded, usually? And what happens if a cow is sold? Is it re-branded?


I dont believe that cattle are smart enough to be moraly bothered by the smell of burning hair.

I think you believe I'm giving the cows more credit to their intelligence than I actually am. I know the cows aren't morally bothered. That's obviously not possible. But pain is still a stimulus that every animal responds to, no matter how intelligent it is. The cow doesn't have to put two and two together to make associations like that.


As for screaming, only the calves scream and they scream at everything.

And every scream is the exact same, no matter what situation the calf is in? You think there's no distinguishing factors between a "Hey food!" scream and an "OWWW" scream.


I have seen bison charge through slide gates in the chutes and KNOCK THEIR OWN HORNS OFF and not utter a word. Then when the next gate opens, they do the same thing... charge through with fresh blood on their heads. It doesnt seem to bother them, and bison are much smarter than cows. Cattle are instinctable. Branding is a surface scar. No real damage.

Yes, and people do stupid stuff all the time that causes them pain and they keep on trucking. That doesn't mean that the animal isn't feeling pain. And if the animal inflicts pain on itself, there really isn't much you could have done to prevent that, was there? This is pain you can prevent, whether or not the animal "forgets" it.


And if it prevents a cow from being stolen and slaughtered with a rusty buck knife, I think a few minutes of pain is worth it.

Obviously that is worth preventing. But I still fail see why using other means of identification is worse.


And our livestock manager just called the house and I told him about this and he informed me that the spray that we use (for cutting and branding as well as tumors and other things like that) contains a form of alcohol (or some F-in ohol as he put it) that helps numb pain as well as clot blood.

So the spray is an anesthetic? That makes me feel better.

Hold on- you excise tumors yourselves?


We're having to electronically tag all our sheep. In fact All sheep in Europe are supposed to be tagged by the end of the year. That's millions and millions of expensive tags that no one will ever read. :flare:

But back to the thread. What about freeze branding ? Our ponies have been done and dairy cattle are often branded in this way. Of course it wouldn't work with white cattle.


We freeze brand our horses but thats about it.
That sure is a bother getting all those sheep tagged.

I know absolutely nothing about the process of freeze branding, so I can't say anything on that subject. It's not really a common practice around here (in Ontario). All the beef cattle, dairy cattle, and goats I've come across have been ear tagged, and horses around here are for the majority pleasure and show horses, and therefore not freeze branded either. I can't I know for out west, where stock horses and beef cattle are more common.

Sorry to hear that, Prend. Sounds like a pain.

[kevinthediltz]

Lots of questions. First of all no, Im not getting too upset with you. Agree to disagree kind of thing. Im not one to get pissed just because someone has an opinion. The calves, yes. They scream when you walk in the pen the wrong way, they scream when they fall over, they scream at EVERYTHING and it is pretty much the same actually. Tumors, yes. We cant call a vet out and have him do the same proceedure we do whenever we find a tumor. (skin deep tumor, no magor surgery.) For that we use pain killers so they dont move around and hurt anyone. When its time to sell some cattle its usually to a feed lot that doesnt need to brand. They feed sweet grain and such for a month or two then slaughter. And calves are branded after about 4 months, depending on the location (north- south, they grow faster in warmer climates.) I just see nothing as easy and practical as branding for the rancher. Ear tags are expensive, tattoos dont work, freeze branding is expensive, branding is practical for the livestock owner.
Im not saying they dont feel pain, I'm saying that it doesnt seem to bother them that much. If after a brand, a cow started limping and licking the wound I'd be worried. But they dont, they just get back into the herd and act comepletely normal.
The biggest thing for me is practicality.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Yes, I think this is an agree to disagree thing as well.

What kind of cattle do you raise, Kevin?

The biggest thing with any farmer or rancher with a large number of stock is always practicality. And much as that bothers me, that's always how it's going to be. Though there are some really interesting new technologies being developed within the livestock industries. Ever seen robotic milkers for dairy cattle? Those things are SWEET!!

Next topic?

Oh, it seems my darling Skib has disappeared...

[kevinthediltz]

Agreed classic. No hard feelings I hope. :)
We have black angus, red angus, whiteheads, and a few charcolias.
Yes technology is great, but can also be rediculous. Ben 'l come back soon enough.

[IJustMadeThatUp]

Agreed classic. No hard feelings I hope. :)
We have black angus, red angus, whiteheads, and a few charcolias.
Yes technology is great, but can also be rediculous. Ben 'l come back soon enough.

We have black angus too!

[*Classic*Charm*]

No hard feelings at all Kevin :)

[Nightshade]

A couple of questions baring in mind I know nothing about the subject, being a mostly city person myself and the family farm is corn wheat (sp) chickens, though they o have sheepo and buffalo but they wopuldnt let the city children near them and I havent been back in over 13 years.
So seriously people still brand animals with fire and metal and such? eek. :eek: You know if I was more squeemish that would seriously turn me to being a veggie burns HURT! Then again thats illogical cause Im sure being slaughtered hurts too. I guess I just assumed animals were microchipped nowadays., But how about painting/dying them?
I know that in Egypt when the herds of shhep are drivin into Cairo aroud eid el adha ( and Im talking thousands and thousands of sheep here njot to mention camels.) and they end up lining all the major desert ropads you can see that they have been dyed to difrinciate between them. Although come to think of it at least one herd of camels that I can think of had been scarred on the hump, with what looked like knife cuts.

[skib]

People who survive solely on raising livestock have a very difficult breaking even with what it cost to raise their cattle. The profit margin is already small enough, and adding unnecessary costs like microchipping and more expensive methods of ID'ing is out of the question. Raising livestock is rather expensive, and with everyone else buying cheap meat from South America and whatnot, American ranchers have an especially difficult time making a profit off their trade. Painting does not sound like a practical solution to me. Dyes fade, paint wears off, etc. It would work in the short term, but it would be required to do every single animal at least once a year, if not more. Branding is a one time deal, and only on the calves.

[kevinthediltz]

Branding is a one time deal, and only on the calves.

Well thats not really true. I mean a brand will last for three or four years but they do fade as well and have to be touched up. As far as painting goes, what ^^^ he said because he beat me to it.