April / Novel of Manners Reading: The Awakening by Kate Chopin

[Scheherazade]

We are reading The Awakening by Kate Chopin in April.

Please post your comments and questions in this thread.

[Scheherazade]

My library does not have the book but have placed an order. Should get it in a week's time.

[Dark Muse]

I just started reading the book

[Jet]

My library does not have the book but have placed an order. Should get it in a week's time.

In the mean time you can still access the book in Google Books, if you'd like.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JiwNQ0NRTcMC&printsec=frontcover

[eyemaker]

I guess I need to reread the "Ponteliers" again.:)
Nice book though. I'm looking forward for some discussions.

[MissScarlett]

I'll read it. I never have, and I've been meaning to for years. It should be enlightening for me to discuss it.

[Lynne50]

I did read it awhile ago and liked it, but I'm not sure why really. It will be fun to revisit it and delve into it a little more. From what I remember, I would not have classified it as a Novel of Manners. It will be fun to explore that avenue.

[MissScarlett]

Not having read much of it yet, I can't really say, but it doesn't seem like a Novel of Manners to me. Still, I like what I've read, and I agree, Lynne, it should be very interesting to discuss.

[wessexgirl]

This is something I've wanted to read for ages. I will join in if I can. I have a copy at work, but we're off for 2 weeks now for Easter. I may try to read it online.

[Janine]

I have two copies, I believe - both are accompanied by short stories by the author; happen to find my second copy on the freeby shelf at the library. At any rate, I read this book a number of years ago. I think probably it was around the same time Lynne read it, since we discussed it briefly. I too, need a refresher reading. I will tackle it this coming week. It is only about 100 pages in my paperback, but there also seems to be some good notes in the introduction, which I will be interested in reading. Maybe, as a suggestion, we could post some parts of the first chapter or so of the book and work through it systematically. This way we can discuss it as we are reading it. What does everyone think of the idea? We do this with the Lawrence short story thread and it works quite effectively.

[Dark Muse]

Since books are longer than short stories, I like the idea of the book discussions being more open and not as strcutrued.

[MissScarlett]

Since books are longer than short stories, I like the idea of the book discussions being more open and not as strcutrued.

I like that, too. People read at such vastly different speeds and some have more time to read than others, we'll probably all be at different places in the book.

[Janine]

True, there is that time limit of one month and we all do read at different speeds. We don't have to adhere specifically, to that one month margin though; no discussion threads actually end forever. I was just thinking back to the 'successful' discussions for monthly book reads and I think the best ones have been ones where we took the chapters systematically; but then again, they did last longer than a month in actuality. We did this more so when discussing "To the Lighthouse", "A Tale of Two Cities", "Women in Love" and many others - but I can't think of any of those, that did not exceed a month's time. The thing is if someone does mention the ending during the early parts of the discussion (month), and this book "The Awakening" would be a good example, then it gives away a great deal and others might give up on their reading. Good idea to put SPOILER on any posts that do reveal the ending of the novel.

[MissScarlett]

Thanks for the advice, Janine. :) I can go with whatever format everyone else likes.

[LadyWentworth]

Well, I read this about a year and a half ago (at least I think it was that long ago). I am not understanding the "Manners" category either, but then again, when I think about some of the "events" that take place in the story, I suppose you could list it under that category. I liked it. I won't say too much about anything until people are able to read more of the story and the discussion gets more involved. I don't want to spoil anything for anybody. :)

[optimisticnad]

If anyone, like myself, can't get hold of a copy and wants to start reading NOW - you can do so online here:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Kate_Chopin/The_Awakening_and_Selected_Short_Stories/index.html

or here:

http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/kchopin/bl-kchop-awake-1.htm

[Janine]

Well, I read this about a year and a half ago (at least I think it was that long ago). I am not understanding the "Manners" category either, but then again, when I think about some of the "events" that take place in the story, I suppose you could list it under that category. I liked it. I won't say too much about anything until people are able to read more of the story and the discussion gets more involved. I don't want to spoil anything for anybody. :)

LadyWentworth, I read this book before, too; not sure how many years back, because so quickly time flies by; but I did mostly recall the story but not so much about the aspect of 'manners'. But now I began my re-reading, a few things already stand out to me early on in the book. I recall and quote this part in Chapter IV:


Never would Edna Pontellier forget the shock with which she heard Madame Ratignolle relating to old Monsieur Farival the harrowing story of one of her accouchements, withholding no intimate detail. She was growing accustomed to like shocks, but she could not keep the mounting color back from her cheeks. Oftener than once her coming had interrupted the droll story with which Robert was entertaining some amused group of married women.

A book had gone the rounds of the pension. When it came her turn to read it, she did so with profound astonishment. She felt moved to read the book in secret and solitude, though none of the others had done so,--to hide it from view at the sound of approaching footsteps. It was openly criticised and freely discussed at table. Mrs. Pontellier gave over being astonished, and concluded that wonders would never cease.

I think both Madame R's relating of the story of her accouchements (childbirths), especially to a Monsieur (male) and the following paragraph showing how Mrs. Pontellier felt compelled to read this book, of which it 'had gone the rounds', in 'secret and solitude', unlike the others, reflects the set attitude of that society and accepted behavior during that time period. I recall my mother telling me that even her mother would never say the word 'pregnant' out loud and that was not as early on. Both paragraphs here reflect 'manners' and to those not adhering to the proper manners of the day. Obviously, these others who are staying at the estate are going beyond proper protocal in being so 'open' in their sexual attitudes/discussion. Mrs. Pontellier starts out thinking very Victorian in this novel. She is young (28) and has not yet found her own self in all of this; she is quite naive; but for that day she was probably altogether normal. This book often reminds me of "Lady Chatterly's Lover", although LC had had some affairs, so she was way less naive than Mrs. P.


If anyone, like myself, can't get hold of a copy and wants to start reading NOW - you can do so online here:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Kate_Chopin/The_Awakening_and_Selected_Short_Stories/index.html

or here:

http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/kchopin/bl-kchop-awake-1.htm

THANKS! opimisticnad, I was wondering where I could locate the book online so I could more easily quote various passages. This has been an emormous help! Thanks for taking the time to find the text online. I own a copy of the book, but the online text is great for reviewing.


In short, Mrs. Pontellier was beginning to realize her position in the universe as a human being, and to recognize her relations as an individual to the world within and about her. This may seem like a ponderous weight of wisdom to descend upon the soul of a young woman of twenty-eight--perhaps more wisdom than the Holy Ghost is usually pleased to vouchsafe to any woman.

This is interesting to me, since D.H.Lawrence often speaks of the Holy Ghost in terms of a personal and sensual awakening in people and also more in a 'flesh and blood' way with his 'transfiguration' belief, than an angelic or otherworldly manner. I am not sure, at this point, how to interpret that last statement. Anyone have any ideas?


But the beginning of things, of a world especially, is necessarily vague, tangled, chaotic, and exceedingly disturbing. How few of us ever emerge from such beginning! How many souls perish in its tumult!

I felt this passage has a sense of forboding and also forshadowing.


The voice of the sea is seductive; never ceasing, whispering, clamoring, murmuring, inviting the soul to wander for a spell in abysses of solitude; to lose itself in mazes of inward contemplation.

The voice of the sea speaks to the soul. The touch of the sea is sensuous, enfolding the body in its soft, close embrace.

These two paragraphs I thought were simply beautiful and very poetic; gorgeous and sensual writing.

Edit: I am only to page 36 but I am liking this book very much. The night sea descriptions were beautiful.

[papayahed]

I just started this book. Pretty good so far, The beginning is nicely setting the background of the story as Janine said, the difference in Edna and the others at the resort(?). I've just finished the part where Edna learns to swim and I can't wait to see what happens next!

[MissScarlett]

I think the story is high symbolic, filled with metaphors. I also this the bird in the cage at the very beginning represents Edna before her awakening. I don't want to say more now for fear of spoiling it for others who may not be finished.

I agree with the others. The language of the books is poetic and beautiful.

[Janine]

I am loving it; read more at breakfast. I am about half way through. Glad you two above me like it, too. It's a good read. Keeps one wondering.

I think when everyone reads Chapter XVII, you begin to realise how indeed this book deals with accepted manners of the day and how Mrs. P is hemmed into this world of manners and conventions. I found this chapter quite revealing, as to how the Pontelier family live. If I was Edna, I would die of the routine; and it's quite distressing the way her husband commands his wife. He is overbearing and tyranical. All along, Edna has adhered to this set of strict manners and now she is beginning to realise, there is lot more to life, than the life she has accepted and followed up to this point. She is very much like that bird in the birdcage at the begining of the book.

[Scheherazade]

Finally the library's got my copy so I will be picking it up today and start reading asap.

[wessexgirl]

I've read up to where Edna has started to defy her husband, by staying on the porch all night, which seems such a little defiance, but it's obviously the beginning of her "awakening". I am quite enjoying it so far, it's very readable, not too heavy-going, but I don't think I'd rush off to read more of her work. But I haven't finished it yet. I think it may be one of those books you have to read a few times, to perhaps get all the symbols and underlying sub-texts. Or perhaps it's just as simple as it seems.

[Janine]

I've read up to where Edna has started to defy her husband, by staying on the porch all night, which seems such a little defiance, but it's obviously the beginning of her "awakening". I am quite enjoying it so far, it's very readable, not too heavy-going, but I don't think I'd rush off to read more of her work. But I haven't finished it yet. I think it may be one of those books you have to read a few times, to perhaps get all the symbols and underlying sub-texts. Or perhaps it's just as simple as it seems.

wessexgirl, I am on my second reading actually, I am seeing some things I believe I passed by first time around; although, I agree with you, I would not rush out to buy more of her work right away. I may try a few of the short stories in the paperback I own. I do think the writing uncomplicated and somewhat simplistic as you pointed out. I think there is some symbolism and subtext but basically it's just a good enjoyable read and nothing too heavy to have to wade through. I am a little further than you, since I have been reading about 2 chapters a day at breakfast. I like that this book has short chapters. For some dumb reason I can read short chaptered books a little bit quicker; however, I am pouring over this one slowly, so I can now pick up the subtext/symbolism you're referring to.

Scher, glad you got the book finally and enjoy your reading!

Hope we can all discuss it soon; I am looking forward to that.:)

[MissScarlett]

This is interesting to me, since D.H.Lawrence often speaks of the Holy Ghost in terms of a personal and sensual awakening in people and also more in a 'flesh and blood' way with his 'transfiguration' belief, than an angelic or otherworldly manner. I am not sure, at this point, how to interpret that last statement. Anyone have any ideas?

When authors speak of the Holy Ghost, I think they're referring to baptism, Janine, a biblical reference to the Holy Ghost descending as a dove and occupying the soul of Jesus at His own baptism. That works with this book and the theme of awakening. I can understand that women in that time were not "supposed" to be artistic, accomplished, etc. They were only "supposed" to be wives and mothers. But after they received the Holy Ghost, were awakened, I don't understand why the Holy Ghost would not confer just as much wisdom on a woman as on a man, either.

[Janine]

When authors speak of the Holy Ghost, I think they're referring to baptism, Janine, a biblical reference to the Holy Ghost descending as a dove and occupying the soul of Jesus at His own baptism. That works with this book and the theme of awakening. I can understand that women in that time were not "supposed" to be artistic, accomplished, etc. They were only "supposed" to be wives and mothers.

Hi MissScarlett, That's it, I believe. Well put! However, Lawrence, who most certainly did refer back to the scriptural references, transformed the word and concept in a certain manner that was characteristic of his works; he took the idea a step further and here in this story I think the author is also doing a very similar thing. It is quite interesting that 'water' is involved in this story, and in many of L's stories, as referring to 'baptism'. Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, in a story we read and discussed of Lawrence's awhile back: The Horse Dealer's Daughter", this concept is even more clearly seen/explored. I think you mentioned that you have read the story, am I correct? If so, we might discuss this and it's parellels, perhaps privately. It might also benefit you to read Virgil's thesis; he loves to share it. He explores Lawrence's individual idea of transfiguration and rebirth. I have to read it twice, and it's quite interesting and throws much light on the concept. I will ask him if he would care to share it with you.


But after they received the Holy Ghost, were awakened, I don't understand why the Holy Ghost would not confer just as much wisdom on a woman as on a man, either

That's a good question, but this was a 'man's world' at that time, so maybe that's why; but now I'm not sure my statement makes any sense in the long run. Afterall it is the Holy Ghost; but what exactly is that? In Lawrence's eyes it was a great mystery and needed to stay as such. As soon as one was the define the word it would stop being significant and holy, elevated and pure. So to your inquiry as to why there was not wisdom granted, I am not sure. Wasn't their wisdom granted to the woman in her awakening.

I don't think Edna was enlightened as an artist or accomplished in any way. She may have tapped into some sort of talent eventually. All people have some type of talent. This 'awakening' is to life and to deeper and more real connections to another human beings; mostly the male sexual awakening. But then it is also connecting to her true self at the same time and to nature; perhaps really the same thing, her natural self. I feel as though before this 'awakening' she was sleep-walking through life. She was numb to things around her; she was just going day by day through the steps expected of her in a sort of dazy.

[MissScarlett]

I agree with you, Janine that Edna was without any true discovered talent at all. Her paintings seem to have been more dalliances, I don't believe she played the piano, or at least did not play it well. It's true that all people have a talent for something or things, but I don't believe Edna had the true soul of an artist, like Mademoiselle Riesz, or she would have been able to live her life alone as that lady did. Edna, clearly, could not live for her art. When all was said and done, Edna did need a man in her life, just not one so oppressive as her own husband.

[Janine]

I agree with you, Janine that Edna was without any true discovered talent at all. Her paintings seem to have been more dalliances, I don't believe she played the piano, or at least did not play it well. It's true that all people have a talent for something or things, but I don't believe Edna had the true soul of an artist, like Mademoiselle Riesz, or she would have been able to live her life alone as that lady did. Edna, clearly, could not live for her art. When all was said and done, Edna did need a man in her life, just not one so oppressive as her own husband.

Oh heck, did you see I posted twice? I was adding to the first post and thought I had hit the edit button. I hope you caught my added stuff. I will go now and delete the first one.

[Scheherazade]

I can understand that women in that time were not "supposed" to be artistic, accomplished, etc. They were only "supposed" to be wives and mothers.I quite disagree with this statement.

Women in those were expected to be artistic (sing, draw, paint, play the piano. do needle work). They were not supposed to be making a living out of those things but, nevertheless, they were expected to be good at these things, which is emphasised in many books from the 19th century as well... They were sent to finishing school just for this purpose.


So to your inquiry as to why there was not wisdom granted, I am not sure. Wasn't their wisdom granted to the woman in her awakening. In those days, men led a more independent life and was able to receive education and get to see the world if they chose to do so. Having that kind of freedom, even men were not blessed enough to experience "the awakening" so it was harder women to go through such an experience.

"The awakening", in my opinion, is very similar to what Janine touches upon in her post. It is putting an end to mere floating through life and becoming aware of one's place and purpose in life and beginning to question one's role and, hence, having different expectations from life and people around them.

Such self-awareness is something not many people experience, which is why I think it was described like a divine interruption (Holy Ghost), I believe.

[MissScarlett]

I quite disagree with this statement.

Women in those were expected to be artistic (sing, draw, paint, play the piano. do needle work). They were not supposed to be making a living out of those things but, nevertheless, they were expected to be good at these things, which is emphasised in many books from the 19th century as well... They were sent to finishing school just for this purpose.

Oh, I totally agree with that. But they weren't supposed to make it their life, as a true artist would, as Mademoiselle Reisz did. They were just supposed to be very good at it to please their family or to pass the time while their husbands were out doing what they wanted to do.

I should have phrased my initial statement differently because I do agree with you. I should have said, they weren't supposed to have an artistic career, but yes, they were expected to be even more artistic than Edna was.

I was thinking along the lines of a true artist like Mademoiselle Reisz, and I should have stated that. For example, I don't think Madame Ratignolle was of a true artistic temperament, but she no doubt was very good at things like needlepoint, embroidery, etc.

The true artists, like George Eliot, sometime used male names if they wanted to enjoy an artistic career.

[Dark Muse]

I somewhat agree with this statement. I do not think women were really expected to know how to paint, that particular form of art I do not think was seen as typically feminine.

Though they were expected to have musical talent, and to sing, as well as do useful domestic things such as knitting.

Writing and painting were not fields in which a woman was really expected to pursue.

I love Mademoiselle Reisz, which is probably not particularly surprising sense she does not like to really be around people nor does she much care for socializing.

In some ways Edna reminded me of Lilly in To the Lighthouse, though Lilly was perhaps a bit more of a serious artist than Edna is.

[papayahed]

I love Mademoiselle Reisz, which is probably not particularly surprising sense she does not like to really be around people nor does she much care for socializing.


I'm wondering why Mademoiselle Reisz made the comment that she played the piano because edna asked and she would not play for those others.

[MissScarlett]

I'm wondering why Mademoiselle Reisz made the comment that she played the piano because edna asked and she would not play for those others.

I think Mademoiselle Reisz, as someone who did possess an artistic temperament, and who was strong enough emotionally to "go her own way" recognized a kindred spirit in Edna. She made the statement that she would play for Edna because she "was the only one worth playing for." I think she sensed Edna's awakening to her true self, while the others were still slaves to convention.

[Janine]

I'm wondering why Mademoiselle Reisz made the comment that she played the piano because edna asked and she would not play for those others.

papayahed, she said something about that; something to the effect that she knew only Edna would appreciate her playing (her talent/art). I will try to find the exact passage.

I agree that most women back then, in this time period would not be expected to have painting talent or any great talent for that matter. As Scheherazade said, they may go to 'finishing school', and learn to do some social sort of talents, perhaps sing, sew, etc. However, I agree that they were not always expected to be professional at these skills. In fact, in the book that Dark Muse compared this story to - "To The Lighthouse", Lily's painting is quite out of the mainstream of accepted female behavoir. In fact, also her choice to remain single back then was frowned upon; Mrs. Ramsey is one who obviously disapproves of it. People seemed not to accept that in a female back then and may hounded her continually. I don't think Edna reminded me of Lily, because Lily was married and she was quite independent and modern thinking for the time; but I can see you connecting them in the way, that by the end of the respective novels, they do undergo some sort of 'awakening'; however their individual 'awakening' is so much different; big difference is the sexual element. It is strange though, thoughout my reading this time of TA, I am constantly reminded of the atmosphere of the other novel and especially the overbearing manner of the husband in the other novel - TTLH. In both books/worlds, the man rules the roost and it causes great difficulty. As soon as Edna returned home and we were given a good glimpse of her homelife; how overbearing her husband was. One example was how her husband behaved complaining of the cook at their dinner-table as though the failed dinner was all Edna's fault; I recall the same sort of scene taking place in the Ramsey household, at the family/guest dinner and how he threw a dizzy about an earwig he found in his soup or salad, and he was ready to fire the cook; but in the same time he was taking his wrath out on his family, especially Mrs Ramsey.
In those days, men led a more independent life and was able to receive education and get to see the world if they chose to do so. Having that kind of freedom, even men were not blessed enough to experience "the awakening" so it was harder women to go through such an experience.

Scheherazade Quote:

"The awakening", in my opinion, is very similar to what Janine touches upon in her post. It is putting an end to mere floating through life and becoming aware of one's place and purpose in life and beginning to question one's role and, hence, having different expectations from life and people around them.

Such self-awareness is something not many people experience, which is why I think it was described like a divine interruption (Holy Ghost), I believe.

Scheherazade,Glad you agree along these same lines. I felt that the title aptly suggests the woman was indeed sleeping until she is 'awakened' by life; she has been merely walking blindly through the steps of her life and accepting, in a 'numbed' fashion, her lot in life, as a 'proper' wife and mother; however, in doing so she is never realising or recognising her actual self or real life and what love means or seeing any happiness in the life she found herself trapped in. Sad to say, but up until this point, her life has been a sort of charade. Again I saw she is like the parrot in the cage; I only add mimicking others and not realising her own life and her own words.

MissScarlett quote

I think Mademoiselle Reisz, as someone who did possess an artistic temperament, and who was strong enough emotionally to "go her own way" recognized a kindred spirit in Edna. She made the statement that she would play for Edna because she "was the only one worth playing for." I think she sensed Edna's awakening to her true self, while the others were still slaves to convention.
MissScarlett, I was thinking along these lines, too. I believe that is accurate, what you just wrote.

[Dark Muse]

In the begining of the book when they are on vaccation and Edna is on the beach drawing just struck me as very Lily like. And though Edna is married she does not seem to be the "tradidtiona" or more conventional housewife as it were. Leonce makes remarks about her ablity to be a mother, and she compares herself to Madame Ratignolle who is the model victorian woman.

And both Edna and Lily start out with doubts about thier artistic ablity, and question thesmevles, and as Edna starts to become more indenpentdent she begins to dedicate more of her time to her art. Though I still do not see Edna as nesccasairly becoming a professional artist.

[Janine]

In the begining of the book when they are on vaccation and Edna is on the beach drawing just struck me as very Lily like. And though Edna is married she does not seem to be the "tradidtiona" or more conventional housewife as it were. Leonce makes remarks about her ablity to be a mother, and she compares herself to Madame Ratignolle who is the model victorian woman.

And both Edna and Lily start out with doubts about thier artistic ablity, and question thesmevles, and as Edna starts to become more indenpentdent she begins to dedicate more of her time to her art. Though I still do not see Edna as nesccasairly becoming a professional artist.


Ok, I get your point. It's funny, because I keep thinking of the other book, too and the various quirky characters. I feel like watching the BBC adaptation movie of TTLH; not exactly but still the gist and the atmosphere of the seaside cottage, etc. Maybe, I will watch it tonight.

[MissScarlett]

I've read To the Lighthouse, and I agree with both of you - Dark Muse and Janine, The Awakening did remind me of the other book, but not until you two spoke of it. I think Edna was a little like Lily, perhaps not quite a strong emotionally. Then again, perhaps I'm not remembering the Woof book correctly.

I think the parrot in the beginning of the book definitely symbolizes Edna. When he mimicked others, speaking in Spanish and French, he was understood, but when he spoke a language of his own, no one understood him. It was the same with Edna. When she obeyed every little manner of the day, people related to her, wanted her near them, but the more she's awakened, the more isolated she becomes. I could say more about this, but I want to wait until others catch up with our conversation.

I think Adele Ratignolle and the Farival twins are representative of the kind of "art" Victorian women were "supposed" to indulge in. These women were rather accomplished at the piano. They could play to amuse others, so that others might pass a pleasant evening, but they were not artists like the rather Bohemian Mademoiselle Reisz, who is the one who does understand Edna. And I think Edna connects with Mademoiselle Reisz through the latter's music. Instead of simply seeing pretty pictures in her mind when someone played the piano, when Mademoiselle Reisz played, "she saw no pictures of solitude, of hope, of longing, or of despair. But the very passions themselves were aroused within her soul, swaying it, lashing it, as the waves daily beat upon her splendid body." This is why Mademoiselle Reisz said Edna was the only one worth playing for, I think. Edna was awakening, and she connected with the older woman's art, even if Edna, herself, wasn't such an artist. Yes, as Janine pointed out, it's more a sexual and personal awakening than an artistic one, but it's an awakening to one's own needs nonetheless.

Edna's awakening seems to being, or at least to heighten, when she learns to swim. She's so delighted with that, and she swims more and more. I think this indicates she has the need, and at least some ability, to do things on her own, to be her own person and not simply Mrs. Pontellier.

[Dark Muse]

I just finnised the book and I found the ending a bit dissapointing. I will not say too much about it now, for those who have not yet finnished only.

Only that, if it is implying what I think it is implying than to me it defeats the whole purpose of the story.

[Amethyst2010]

On the ending, I interpret it this way. Go for love and search for spiritual freedom, but do not overly depend on someone else. Edna has in a way built her new dreams on another person, and she was led to disappointment. She had the courage to step out, but she could not face it alone.

[Dark Muse]

Yes that would make sense. It just seems that if that were the case, well than ultimately in the end Edna turly was not really very independent at all, and so her whole "awakening" became a bit of a farse toward the end. In the end she still relied upon a man and was still ultimately weak.

[Janine]

If one is discussing the ending, I just would request that 'SPOILER' were placed before the entry. Some individuals are still not done reading the story, I believe. When can we begin discussing the beginning of this story and work through it to to discover symbolism and other elements that make the story interesting?

From the very first lines, I felt drawn into this story by the parrot and bird references and the way the atmosphere of the seaside was depicted. Does anyone else have thoughts on those elements of what they may mean, indicate or fortell? I particularly like the relaying of the imaginary swimming dream of Edna's in the field when she was a young girl. I thought that definitely was a forshadowing device. I also wondered if everyone thought Edna completely stable; at times I was not totally sure; however I did not perceive her as her husband did later on. I think there was a major difference but still at times she seemed to me numb or in a depressed state prior to her awakening. I wondered what all those years of repression had done to her; what effect they ultimately did have on her. I think this might be an interesting aspect to explore.

[Dark Muse]

Swimming plays a very significant role within this story as it comes up more than once in very key ways. Edna's learning to swim can be seen as highly representative of many of the other elements within this book.

Water as a symbol is highly charged and stands for many different things which could reflect some of the themes seen in this story. Water of coarse is predominately known as a representation for life or the "life-force." It is also symbolized as the womb, and is seen as a cleansing, purifying agent, as well as a symbol of transition.

The story begins at the sea side. Edna is first associated with water, it is when she is near the water that she begins this "awakening" process which she goes through. It is also interesting that at the moment when Edna suddenly learns to swim, marks a time of great change for Edna both emotionally/intellectually, as well physically in the direction her life takes.

Though I cannot find the exact quote now, I thought I remember a scene in which Edna gave Robert credit for her learning how to swim, which as the story unfolds can be interpreted in a few different ways.

[Lynne50]

Not too far into the story yet, but while I was reading last night, it seems to me the word "solitude" kept popping up. Am I correct in that?
I think that Edna loves her quiet side of life, but at the same time wants more excitement,too.

[Dark Muse]

Edna does begin to draw away from soceity more as well as from the people around her. She takes on certain asepcts of Mademoiselle Reisz who is truly the artist, as well as a recluse. But Edna does not have that same seriousness about her art as Reisz has. She is sort of balanced between Reisz and Ratignolle.

Edna does wish to seek more time for herself and does note wish to have to feel obligated to entertain others.

[Amethyst2010]

I thought that definitely was a forshadowing device. I also wondered if everyone thought Edna completely stable; at times I was not totally sure; however I did not perceive her as her husband did later on. I think there was a major difference but still at times she seemed to me numb or in a depressed state prior to her awakening. I wondered what all those years of repression had done to her; what effect they ultimately did have on her.

I do not see enough evidence on Edna being unstable. She is certainly not very strong. In real life, if there is a soulmate for her to speak to things could have a different outcome in the end. On "years of repression", it's a matter of perspective. There are many women who will want what Edna had, a husband who cared for the family and did love her in his own ways, two lovely children, social circle. She didn't have many friends, but really, how many people around us have many friends anyway ? If she had not known what she wanted from her life in her earlier marriage years, could we say that she was repressed ?

[Janine]

Swimming plays a very significant role within this story as it comes up more than once in very key ways. Edna's learning to swim can be seen as highly representative of many of the other elements within this book.

Water as a symbol is highly charged and stands for many different things which could reflect some of the themes seen in this story. Water of coarse is predominately known as a representation for life or the "life-force." It is also symbolized as the womb, and is seen as a cleansing, purifying agent, as well as a symbol of transition.

The story begins at the sea side. Edna is first associated with water, it is when she is near the water that she begins this "awakening" process which she goes through. It is also interesting that at the moment when Edna suddenly learns to swim, marks a time of great change for Edna both emotionally/intellectually, as well physically in the direction her life takes.

Though I cannot find the exact quote now, I thought I remember a scene in which Edna gave Robert credit for her learning how to swim, which as the story unfolds can be interpreted in a few different ways.

Dark Muse, I like how you have expanded on this swimming/water theme. Good to point out the symbolic meanings attached to water; they fit this story perfectly. I recall one very early scene, when Edna sits against the shower/changing house wall and stares out at the sea. It seemed then the connection was being made and this was the beginning of her awakening, or at least her feelings of restlessness that lead to it. I believe that was the same scene, when she verbalised the story of her dream as a young girl; I refer to the one in the field, that felt to her like swimming. I will review that part of the book tonight, to made sure I am recalling that accurately. I should quote the exact passage. Just too tired and lazy to do so tonight.


It is also interesting that at the moment when Edna suddenly learns to swim, marks a time of great change for Edna both emotionally/intellectually, as well physically in the direction her life takes.

I think this is the exact time that she suddenly feels unrestricted and free, feelings she has never before allowed herself to be in touch with. Also, she is in control now of her own being, her own body, in the vast, unrestricted freedom of the water. This water begins to free her spirit.

Lynne, I will look through my book to pick up the repetition of the word 'solitude'. I think that is significant. I think that all along' Edna has been in the company of people: husband, children, proper friends, society, etc, and yet, she has been very much 'alone', in a 'negative' state of solitude. Now she is finding her own space and entering into another state of solitude; one of personal freedom, potenially a 'positive' state of being. In this way, Dark Muse is right; she falls somewhere between the two creative women she associates with. As you put it, DM...


She is sort of balanced between Reisz and Ratignolle

Quote by Amethyst2010

I do not see enough evidence on Edna being unstable. She is certainly not very strong. In real life, if there is a soulmate for her to speak to things could have a different outcome in the end. On "years of repression", it's a matter of perspective. There are many women who will want what Edna had, a husband who cared for the family and did love her in his own ways, two lovely children, social circle. She didn't have many friends, but really, how many people around us have many friends anyway ? If she had not known what she wanted from her life in her earlier marriage years, could we say that she was repressed ?

Amethyst, I think now what I wrote previously was unclear. I merely thought Edna suffered, at first, from a quiet, passive sort of depression; this being prior to her awakening. As she became more herself and awakened, it was her husband who perceived her 'unbalanced' and asked the doctor to observe her; it was the doctor who saw her altered; but he saw that she was new, more alive, vibrant. I didn't mean to indicate I thought Edna truly unbalanced. I just thought, at the start of the story, she was a little 'depressed', due to her repressed position in life, being hemmed in, trapped, and unable to find any pleasure or happiness in her own being or delight in the natural world about her.

[Amethyst2010]

Has anyone read Henrik Ibsen's A Doll's House ? I feel there is some similarities in the plot and characters between The Awakening and A Doll's House.

[Janine]

Has anyone read Henrik Ibsen's A Doll's House ? I feel there is some similarities in the plot and characters between The Awakening and A Doll's House.

I read the play long ago and I saw it recently; a BBC production on DVD. I have definitely been reminded of the Ibsen play, while reading TA, but I think there are many differences here. I do think that Nora and Edna were both greatly repressed by their husbands and society. In a way, Nora, more so. Do you recall her husband would not allow her to have macaroons; she had to hide them? He was a real tyrant to his wife. I am not sure that Edna's husband is quite as bad. There are children involved in both instances, but I think Nora had a closer bond to hers; although, in the end, that may be questionable. I think that "Anna Karenina" also could be compared to this book, with some distinct commonalities, as well.

[Dark Muse]

I do not feel that Edana's husband was really bad at all nor that Edna was truly mistreated by him, she just did not have an emotional bond with him. But for the most part he did not greatly interfer with her. He was concenred when she began to act in a way that seemed strange to him but he did not really strongly try to impose his will on her.

I do not feel that Edna was directly oppressed by her husband as an individual but rather by the system of marraige as it was established in soceity at that time and the place of women and thier limited choices. In fact I find that Chopin is rather fair and perhaps even somewhat sympathetic to male characters in ther stories. She does not make them look like just absolute tyrants or particuarly villonous, but she makes them instead simply products of thier time. They are as much locked into the system as anyone else. Though they might have more freedom to move out of it than women have.

[optimisticnad]

I've only read the first five chapters, strapped for time and poorly. I don't like Robert, at 26 (?) I would have expected a more mature person, he is what Forster would call 'flat'. Does he change? Could the awakening mentioned in the title be not only of Edna's but his too? Does he truly feel for Edna or is she just another in a long line of unavailable women to keep the boredom away?

[Janine]

I do not feel that Edana's husband was really bad at all nor that Edna was truly mistreated by him, she just did not have an emotional bond with him. But for the most part he did not greatly interfer with her. He was concenred when she began to act in a way that seemed strange to him but he did not really strongly try to impose his will on her.

I do not feel that Edna was directly oppressed by her husband as an individual but rather by the system of marraige as it was established in soceity at that time and the place of women and thier limited choices. In fact I find that Chopin is rather fair and perhaps even somewhat sympathetic to male characters in ther stories. She does not make them look like just absolute tyrants or particuarly villonous, but she makes them instead simply products of thier time. They are as much locked into the system as anyone else. Though they might have more freedom to move out of it than women have.


I do agree with you here. You stated this well, Dark Muse. I liked the way Chopin does sympathise with the husband to some extent, but at times he very typically acts like a man in that he is more dominient to the point of being harsh and nasty (like the dinner scene); however, as you say he is the product of the times and he is miffed by the sudden changes in his otherwise passive wife. This change has greatly rocked his world I am sure.

[Dark Muse]

I've only read the first five chapters, strapped for time and poorly. I don't like Robert, at 26 (?) I would have expected a more mature person, he is what Forster would call 'flat'. Does he change? Could the awakening mentioned in the title be not only of Edna's but his too? Does he truly feel for Edna or is she just another in a long line of unavailable women to keep the boredom away?

My opinion on Robert wavered many times throughout the story. I never really came to solidily feel one way or the other about him. As far as his feelings and intentions toward Edna, well you will just have to keep reading to come to decide what you think of thier relatonship.

The idea of Awakening could apply to Robert in some ways.

[Janine]

My opinion on Robert wavered many times throughout the story. I never really came to solidily feel one way or the other about him. As far as his feelings and intentions toward Edna, well you will just have to keep reading to come to decide what you think of thier relatonship.

The idea of Awakening could apply to Robert in some ways.

I think mine did, too; waver. I am still reading the book and Robert has not returned yet, so I can't recall too much about him from prior readings; not about the time when he returns. I will be anxious tonight to read that part. Maybe, it is an 'awakening' for him, as well. I hadn't thought of that before. Interesting.

[optimisticnad]

Maybe, it is an 'awakening' for him, as well. I hadn't thought of that before. Interesting.

:banana:

I have contributed something to the book club, for once!

[Janine]

:banana:

I have contributed something to the book club, for once!

Yes, you did; very good observation, optimisticnad.

I am about 3 pages from the end of the book now; was reading it at breakfast.

[Lynne50]

Just finished Chapter 23. On the back jacket of my copy, it says that "audiences were taken aback by Chopin's daring portrayal of a woman trapped in a stifling marriage." I don't see Mr. P as a stifling husband. I think he genuinely loves his wife, but doesn't understand what is happening with her. I'm not sure I do either. She didn't want Robert when they were together, but now that he's away, she is getting more and more infatuated with him. Janine, Does the story ever say how old her children are? It sounds almost like post-partem depression. ( I'm not an expert on this topic, so if I'm completely off based here, please let me know) She very much wants to answer to no one, she wants no responsibilites. I think she is actually losing herself, insteading of "awakening" to a new self.

I had written awhile ago about how solitude plays the story. Remember, that was the piano piece that Madame Reisz played? And now, it seems, the word "alone" pops up. She wants Mr. P. to leave her alone... and in Chapter 19, in the very same paragraph she recalls..."There were days when she was very happy without knowing why...She liked then to wander alone into strange and unfamiliar places. She discovered many a sunny, sleepy corner, fashioned to dream in. And she found it good to dream and to be alone and unmolested.
I think she's trying to be someone she's not.

Hope I didn't go on too much. I am enjoying the story and everyone's
comments too.

[Dark Muse]

Reagurding Edna an her husband, it is true I do not think he is truly stifling, but in a way I think that is Chopin's point. As the peice is about society of the day, when women did not have a whole lot of choice when it came to love and marraige. I think what is really stifling is the system of marraige as it was set up back than.

Of course in this day and age if a couple grows a part from each other, Edna would have been able to divorce her husband and marry Robert, but naturally such things are forbiddin for women to do now, as it does make some remark somewhere in the book about how Edna never married for love, but now she has indeed found love, and is stifiled becasue she is trapped in a marrige, where she is not ill-treated but in which she is not truly happy.

I do not think it ever says how old the children are, but I think they are suppose to be older than infants. In my mind I saw them as being a between maybe 4-6 years old, but it does not really say so that is just the impression I had.

[Janine]

Just finished Chapter 23. On the back jacket of my copy, it says that "audiences were taken aback by Chopin's daring portrayal of a woman trapped in a stifling marriage." I don't see Mr. P as a stifling husband. I think he genuinely loves his wife, but doesn't understand what is happening with her. I'm not sure I do either. She didn't want Robert when they were together, but now that he's away, she is getting more and more infatuated with him. Janine, Does the story ever say how old her children are? It sounds almost like post-partem depression. ( I'm not an expert on this topic, so if I'm completely off based here, please let me know) She very much wants to answer to no one, she wants no responsibilites. I think she is actually losing herself, insteading of "awakening" to a new self.

Hi Lynne,... and I am three pages away from finishing; well, the second time around, so I know the ending. I think I would agree with Dark Muse on what she said before this post. Don't faint, DM, we are actually agreeing again. I do however, see your point, Lynne, on somethings you mention here or question. I also could not help but think Edna selfish at times, even sort of juevenille in her thinking, and I did question her stability a few posts back. She also seemed a bit lazy to me and definitely, she went to the extreme of not wanting to deal with any responsibility; true she went to visit her children, but it seemed that was not saying much for her, in her attention as a mother, in the long run. I think that when we all come to the ending, we can't exactly say she was a totally rational woman. I was wondering how old Edna is and how old Robert is; also, the other young man she has taken some interest in, before Robert returned back home. I thought someone in the discussion mentioned Robert being around '26 (?)'; was it you, optimisticnad? I thought I recalled reading that Edna was 28 early in the book. I have no idea how old her husband would be, but feel he is a number of years older than Edna; I don't know why I think that; maybe since he is so responsible and conventional. Now if Robert is as old as 26; then Edna and him are closer in age, than I was envisioning.

I do think that you're correct Dark Muse in saying that in this day and age Edna could have gotten a divorce and then married Robert. If we do the 'what if' do you all believe that Robert would have married her if he could and if so would he have been right for Edna? It's a hypothetical question, I know, but thought it might be interesting to entertain the idea and see what everyone's opinion on it would be.

As I read this story, I keep thinking it must have been written in the early part of the 20th Century. It is indeed a surprise and must have been quite shocking a novel to present in the late 19th Century. I was thinking it something like "Lady Chatterly's Lover", but no children are involved in that story although Mellors (Connie's gamekeeper lover) does indeed have a child, but does not live with the child. The ending of course, is much different; but 'convention' and 'repression' are themes in that story, too and Connie is surely 'awakened'. I am now wondering if Edna is ever truly awakened. She seems to think she has been; but there are times she wavers in mood. The real point, I am trying to make is that LCL was written much later than TA, which really surprised me, since LCL caused a huge stir and it was even banned in England; including a court trial for obsenity. Of course, TA does not go into explicit sexual details, as LCL did. But to me this novel feels contemporary, even in the style; so I found it hard to believe it was written so early.



I had written awhile ago about how solitude plays the story. Remember, that was the piano piece that Madame Reisz played? And now, it seems, the word "alone" pops up. She wants Mr. P. to leave her alone... and in Chapter 19, in the very same paragraph she recalls..."There were days when she was very happy without knowing why...She liked then to wander alone into strange and unfamiliar places. She discovered many a sunny, sleepy corner, fashioned to dream in. And she found it good to dream and to be alone and unmolested.
I think she's trying to be someone she's not.

Hope I didn't go on too much. I am enjoying the story and everyone's
comments too.

I recall that comment on 'solitude' and I think that Edna is just as trapped in solitude as she is in convention. She goes from one extreme to the other and now she is living a sort of dream existence. Did you get to the part, Lynne, where she moves into the little 'pigeon house'? I think that indicates her want of solitude and aloneness; different than the aloneness she felt with her husband or going along with society and it's responsibilites. I, however, do not think she has truly found herself by the end of the novel.

It may be as you suggest: "I think she's trying to be someone she's not." I must think about that for awhile. I am not sure she knows what she should be. I am not convinced she has found her true self yet.

[Dark Muse]

I cannot really blame her as far as her relations with her children back than if she were married she would not have had much of a choice or option to have kids weather she wanted them or not, having children were forced upon her. So speaking as someone who does not want kids, I could not imagine being stuck with them against my will.

For a woman who did not want to be a typical mother/housewife, her only real option would be to never be in a relationship with anyone, but to be a "spinster"

[Virgil]

Just finished Chapter 23. On the back jacket of my copy, it says that "audiences were taken aback by Chopin's daring portrayal of a woman trapped in a stifling marriage." I don't see Mr. P as a stifling husband. I think he genuinely loves his wife, but doesn't understand what is happening with her. I'm not sure I do either. She didn't want Robert when they were together, but now that he's away, she is getting more and more infatuated with him. Janine, Does the story ever say how old her children are? It sounds almost like post-partem depression. ( I'm not an expert on this topic, so if I'm completely off based here, please let me know) She very much wants to answer to no one, she wants no responsibilites. I think she is actually losing herself, insteading of "awakening" to a new self.

I haven't read this book in a long time (and I'm not reading it now), since undergrad days and that's a while back. So it's not fresh in my mind. But that's how I felt too. What was so bad about her husband? What was so bad about her life? I don't think that Chopin's point was a woman trapped in a bad marriage. I think the point is that here is a person who's soul just wants to go beyond the common every day life. It's not so much a woman's lib story but a story of a person (could have been a man, but the author chose to write from the point of view of a character from her gender) of a person who seeks a trascendental experience.

[Dark Muse]

To an extent I agree with you, but from my reading of other storys I have read by Chopin, she is very concerned particuarly with women wanting to express themselves beyond the limits of thier soceity, and about the inablity of women to be able to really express thier passion and desire, both in love, as well as in more spiritual or artistic experinces. She deals a lot with women strugling to break free, not from just the physcial bonds of marraige, but to try and find thier own place in the world outside of the influcne of others and the limitations placed upon them.

[Janine]

I haven't read this book in a long time (and I'm not reading it now), since undergrad days and that's a while back. So it's not fresh in my mind. But that's how I felt too. What was so bad about her husband? What was so bad about her life? I don't think that Chopin's point was a woman trapped in a bad marriage. I think the point is that here is a person who's soul just wants to go beyond the common every day life. It's not so much a woman's lib story but a story of a person (could have been a man, but the author chose to write from the point of view of a character from her gender) of a person who seeks a trascendental experience.

"trascendental experience".

Is that about the same as Lawrence's concept of "transfiguration"?


I cannot really blame her as far as her relations with her children back than if she were married she would not have had much of a choice or option to have kids weather she wanted them or not, having children were forced upon her. So speaking as someone who does not want kids, I could not imagine being stuck with them against my will.

For a woman who did not want to be a typical mother/housewife, her only real option would be to never be in a relationship with anyone, but to be a "spinster"

I understand that, but now she has the children, so what can she do but accept them, love them; they are her flesh and blood. She does not seem to have much maternal love for them; not a truely deep connection. I don't know what to say. I am not sure I buy this book entirely; or the fact, she could just leave children behind her so easily. I don't know why she is taking up with the other young man, she knows she does not love either. Maybe, the children were mostly raised back then, by the nanny, and so women did not find it that hard to disregard them and find their own independence. It just seems that in books like "Anna Karenina", Anna did suffer over the separation from her young son and here Edna seems removed from her children, almost like they are nieces and nephews; not her own children. I feel somewhat sorry for the children, although they seem to love the grandmother and have bonded with her; at least, that is some consolation.

[Dark Muse]

You cannot force someone to be maternal if such is simply not in thier nature to be and from the begining Edna is just not a maternal person. I can understand that, now that she has the children pehraps she has some resposneblity to them, but you cannot exepct someone to just will themselves to be a maternal person, and it is not really her fault having the kids if she did not "choose" to have them as that really was not an option.

I feel that her feelings were genuine for Robert and she truly did love him and would have been with him if it were possible for her to do so.

[Janine]

You cannot force someone to be maternal if such is simply not in thier nature to be and from the begining Edna is just not a maternal person. I can understand that, now that she has the children pehraps she has some resposneblity to them, but you cannot exepct someone to just will themselves to be a maternal person, and it is not really her fault having the kids if she did not "choose" to have them as that really was not an option.

I feel that her feelings were genuine for Robert and she truly did love him and would have been with him if it were possible for her to do so.

I can agree that it may not have been planned to have the children, but it did go with the territory of marriage in those days. I find it hard to believe she carried two children and didn't once have a spark on maternal instinct and feel some love for them. The thing is, what makes you think, if she left to live with Robert or even was able to marry him, she would not again conceive and have another child or even more children; then what? She certainly did not seem responsible, when it came to the children she did have. Maybe, she wasn't the maternal type and didn't want to ever have children, then in that case she would have been better off staying unmarried and accepting being a spinster like M. Reiz; such as Lily in "To the Lighthouse".

[Dark Muse]

Being a Spinster back then was not always very easy or favorable and it seemed at the begining of the story Edna did not have the strong personality to do that, and well even toward the end it seemed she did not have it within her to take that path.

But she herself in the story reflects that she never really married her husband for love, (few women did than, few were acutally able to do so) and that could have an effect on her relationship with the children. Having children with a person you acutally do love, would be a very different thing than having children with a person you did not love.

We cannot really say what Edna felt about having children, only that in that time period we cannot very well condemn a woman if she had the burden of children forced upon her, simply becasue she did not wish to live a life completly alone.

[optimisticnad]

I haven't read this book in a long time (and I'm not reading it now), since undergrad days and that's a while back. So it's not fresh in my mind. But that's how I felt too. What was so bad about her husband? What was so bad about her life? I don't think that Chopin's point was a woman trapped in a bad marriage. I think the point is that here is a person who's soul just wants to go beyond the common every day life. It's not so much a woman's lib story but a story of a person (could have been a man, but the author chose to write from the point of view of a character from her gender) of a person who seeks a trascendental experience.

You could have everything in life and still be dissatisfied. Her husband isn't a bad person, he just doesn't seem to understand her - like when he comes in the middle of the night, wakes her up to tell her their son has fever - she checks, he doesn't have fever and when she comes back to the bedroom she finds her husband snoring away and she breaks down on the balcony and cries, but has no idea why. I thought that was a fantastic scene. It speaks volumes, he comes across - not bad - but inconsiderate.

I agree that it's not so much a 'woman's lib' story, could have been a man, but then we'd miss the point - conventions and rules of society, how men and women behave differently - and were expected to do so, how men can get away with certain things that women can't. A man in this situation and in that time and in those circumstances would not feel as trapped as Edna does. Someone compared this to Anna Karenina, an excellent comparison in this sense but Anna Karenina was slightly more 'melodramatic' - and if that word offends we'll go for 'sentimental' than this, Chopin's novel is much harder and 'real' about life.

I think she lacks meaning and purpose in her life, being a wife and mother isn't enough; in this respect she might be said to be a little like Nora in Ibsen's play (Doll's House), you must be a human being and a woman (or a man) before you can fulfill these social roles. If she had meaning in her life or was made to feel she had worth than I think 'common everyday life' as you say would have been enough for.


I do not think it ever says how old the children are, but I think they are suppose to be older than infants. In my mind I saw them as being a between maybe 4-6 years old, but it does not really say so that is just the impression I had.

It does, in chapter one: 'Pontellier's two children were there sturdy little fellows of four and five'. I haven't finished the novel so I don't know the time span but at the start they are four and five. Good guess by the way!

[Dark Muse]

Oh I totally missed or forgot when it stated their ages

[applepie]

This is one of those books that I love. While I've not been posting this pat month, I have been reading The Awakening again. I'm always struck by how much I can relate to Edna while at the same time never really being able to grasp her motivations.

Edna's character seeks an immersion in herself. Her wants and desires drive her with litle care to those around her. It is said on more than one occasion that she is not the type of mother to her children that she should be, but there is little in her mothering that others can find fault with. To me it seems as if she goes through the motions of life ensuring that no one may find fault in her behavior, but as the tale progresses she has less and less care for doing so. I remember in school that it was presented as the story of a woman finding herself, but as I'm grown with children of my own I see it a bit differently.

The Edna at the end of the book who drowns herself is the same woman at the beginning of the book who was described by herhusband as "not a mother-woman" and failing in her duty to their children. It seems to me that under the influence of Mme Reisz she sheds the facade that otherwise made her acceptable in society. In contrast to Edna's self centerdness (I don't have a better word) you have Madame Ratingnolle who is the epitome of the ideal mother for that time. She devoted everything to her children, and they were her entire being. I don't see Edna's change as growing as an individual, and I see it more as her shunning of the society whose constraints she deplored.

[Janine]

This is one of those books that I love. While I've not been posting this pat month, I have been reading The Awakening again. I'm always struck by how much I can relate to Edna while at the same time never really being able to grasp her motivations.

Edna's character seeks an immersion in herself. Her wants and desires drive her with litle care to those around her. It is said on more than one occasion that she is not the type of mother to her children that she should be, but there is little in her mothering that others can find fault with. To me it seems as if she goes through the motions of life ensuring that no one may find fault in her behavior, but as the tale progresses she has less and less care for doing so. I remember in school that it was presented as the story of a woman finding herself, but as I'm grown with children of my own I see it a bit differently.

The Edna at the end of the book who drowns herself is the same woman at the beginning of the book who was described by herhusband as "not a mother-woman" and failing in her duty to their children. It seems to me that under the influence of Mme Reisz she sheds the facade that otherwise made her acceptable in society. In contrast to Edna's self centerdness (I don't have a better word) you have Madame Ratingnolle who is the epitome of the ideal mother for that time. She devoted everything to her children, and they were her entire being. I don't see Edna's change as growing as an individual, and I see it more as her shunning of the society whose constraints she deplored.

mkhockenberry, quite interesting; I like your take on this story. I think re-reading a story, one gets such a new persective; glad you did so; I enjoyed reading your well thought-out post. Interesting points you made here.

[papayahed]

I can agree that it may not have been planned to have the children, but it did go with the territory of marriage in those days. I find it hard to believe she carried two children and didn't once have a spark on maternal instinct and feel some love for them. The thing is, what makes you think, if she left to live with Robert or even was able to marry him, she would not again conceive and have another child or even more children; then what? She certainly did not seem responsible, when it came to the children she did have. Maybe, she wasn't the maternal type and didn't want to ever have children, then in that case she would have been better off staying unmarried and accepting being a spinster like M. Reiz; such as Lily in "To the Lighthouse".


But isn't the point of the story that she was following societies conventions? She was suppossed to get married and have kids. The idea was probably so ingrained Edna never even considered another option.

I think she felt love for her kids, she went to see them that one time and I don't have the quote with me but it indicated there were some feelings there. But I agree - Edna had no maternal instinct.

Have we talked about the conversation between Robert and Madame Ratingnolle? Where Madam Rat. cautions Robert?

[Janine]

But isn't the point of the story that she was following societies conventions?

papayahed, Yes, I do agree and think that is true and what the author is trying to convey. But I think there are many novels, especially in the earlier part of this century when so many women authors made this point with their novels; I refer to Jane Austen as one. So my feeling on this novel is that she takes it a step further with this sexual awakening in Edith.


She was suppossed to get married and have kids. The idea was probably so ingrained Edna never even considered another option.

Right, that is true, also. I don't think she had much forethought, as to any other options for her life, at the time she married. She just went along passively, with what was expected of her. I think, for one, Edith was a very passive type person and more layed-back. In this way, she remained weak and not able to actually break out of the mold in which she was cast into; the ending demonstrates that fact and also what option would she realistically have at that point anyway?


I think she felt love for her kids, she went to see them that one time and I don't have the quote with me but it indicated there were some feelings there. But I agree - Edna had no maternal instinct.

Yes, that did seem to indicate some bit of genuine love; but as far, as actually caring for them in a 'maternal maner', I didn't see that she ever did so. The visit to the farm was a idylistic I just wonder about that in this book as to it's reality and as to whether Edna was truly acting out things in a normal manner of thinking in regard to her children at the end. You know, they say when you take your own life either of two things: one - it's "a permanent solution to a temporary problem"; two - you hurt the people you leave behind the worse. I see this as both and also something going back pyschologically to Edna's childhood and the very prominent dream she once had.


Have we talked about the conversation between Robert and Madame Ratingnolle? Where Madam Rat. cautions Robert?

Not sure but would love to talk about that part. That's a good point to bring up since I do recall her cautioning Robert.

[Dark Muse]

Then again, if you think about it, back then how many women truly would have been "maternal" to thier children? The concepts of motherhood than are quite different than what we think of it today. Women particuarly of an upper-middle class background do not often tend to acutally do a lot of mothering themselves.

Though Madame Ratingnolle is portrayed in the story as the ideal becasue she fits in with the conventions of soceity. Realisticly she probably would have haid a maid that did most of the acutal caretaking of the child.

Can anyone really picture a victorian woman changing diapers?

[Janine]

Then again, if you think about it, back then how many women truly would have been "maternal" to thier children? The concepts of motherhood than are quite different than what we think of it today. Women particuarly of an upper-middle class background do not often tend to acutally do a lot of mothering themselves.

Though Madame Ratingnolle is portrayed in the story as the ideal becasue she fits in with the conventions of soceity. Realisticly she probably would have haid a maid that did most of the acutal caretaking of the child.

Can anyone really picture a victorian woman changing diapers?

I agree with that. I was thinking the same thing about them actually doing the chores connected to mothering, such as changing a diaper; these would be things that bond a woman to their baby/child. It is true that in Victorian upper class society women would just hand the kid over to the nanny or the nurse. I was unclear as to just how upper crust Edna and her husband were but I suppose they are up there. I did think it mentioned chores that Madame Ratingnolle did that seemed to create a closer more motherly bond to her children, such as darning socks, etc. I will revisit those lines and see if I can quote anything specifically.

[Dark Muse]

I had a feeling that Edna and her social class were fairly well up there, pehraps they were not among the high elite, but were still well off, and above what would have been precieived as the "working class." It did mention that Edna had servents in her household. There was also the part in which Edna's husband expressed anxiety about what people would think of his finincial state when Edna bought the little house for herself. He had to make it appear as if thier main house was being renovated so no one thought that he was starting to have finicial difficulties.

[Janine]

I had a feeling that Edna and her social class were fairly well up there, pehraps they were not among the high elite, but were still well off, and above what would have been precieived as the "working class." It did mention that Edna had servents in her household. There was also the part in which Edna's husband expressed anxiety about what people would think of his finincial state when Edna bought the little house for herself. He had to make it appear as if thier main house was being renovated so no one thought that he was starting to have finicial difficulties.

Yes, I do think you are observations and feeling about it are correct. I did recall the husband saying that. Now who paid for the house Edna moves into? I was a bit confused on that point. Also, who pays for that farewell dinner that Edna gives before she vacates the big house, her main residence? I could not quite fathom where that move was to lead her, when the children and husband did return home permanently. I also could not understand, why she was carrying on secretly with the one young man, when within herself and her thoughts she had such deep feelings for Robert. That part did not quite make sense to me.

[papayahed]

Yes, I do think you are observations and feeling about it are correct. I did recall the husband saying that. Now who paid for the house Edna moves into? I was a bit confused on that point. Also, who pays for that farewell dinner that Edna gives before she vacates the big house, her main residence?

I think Edna had a little of her own money but I could be making that up.


I could not quite fathom where that move was to lead her, when the children and husband did return home permanently. I also could not understand, why she was carrying on secretly with the one young man, when within herself and her thoughts she had such deep feelings for Robert. That part did not quite make sense to me.

I think part of it might have been that Edna found acceptance around Arobin. Arobin knew exactly what was going on and went with the flow in a manner of speaking. Plus Arobin was a fun guuy - he took her to parties, to the track, etc.

[Dark Muse]

When she is speaking to Mademoiselle Reiz she mentions that she has her own money. She says she one some at the races, and she is starting to sell her sketches, it seems the house she plans to pay for herself, as she says that she could live there simply with one servant for the money she is earning.

But I thought she mentioned something about using her husbands money to pay for the dinner.

[Janine]

When she is speaking to Mademoiselle Reiz she mentions that she has her own money. She says she one some at the races, and she is starting to sell her sketches, it seems the house she plans to pay for herself, as she says that she could live there simply with one servant for the money she is earning.

But I thought she mentioned something about using her husbands money to pay for the dinner.

That's the same impression I got. I thought she made some money; but then again, it seemed she did not really apply herself with much enthusiasm to work on her paintings and sketches; so I wondered how selling those make her much revenue. My friend, who read the story, too, said she thought it mentioned that she had an inheritance of her own. I will have to check back to see if that is in the text.

The thing that really sort of gauled me was her using her husband's money for the rather elaborate and surely expensive farewell dinner. Also, if those group of friends from society, knew this was a 'farewell' dinner, and she would be moving into her own little house soon, then how did her husband think he could hide that fact? Wow, this book was confusing in someways. Things just don't add up when you take a closer look, or do they?

[Dark Muse]

Here what she says to Reiz about getting the house


I have a little money from my mother's estate, which my fahter sends me by driblits. I won a large sum this winter on the races, and I am beginning to sell my sketches. Laidpore is more and more pleased with my work; he says it grows in force and individulaity. I cannot judge of that myself, but I feel I have gained in ease and confidence. However, as I said, I have sold a good man through Laidpore. I can live in the tiny house for littler or nothing, with one servant.

I was a bit confussed about the issue with the husband and the house as well. At one point he seemed to be under the impression that he was going to be living there too. I thought he mentioned something about not having enough room within the place. Or maybe someone else questioned her on that. But just how that was suppose to work I was not quite sure. I do not think Edna really thought ahead, but I think that was perhaps the point, that she acted out of impulse.

[papayahed]

I was a bit confussed about the issue with the husband and the house as well. At one point he seemed to be under the impression that he was going to be living there too. I thought he mentioned something about not having enough room within the place. Or maybe someone else questioned her on that. But just how that was suppose to work I was not quite sure. I do not think Edna really thought ahead, but I think that was perhaps the point, that she acted out of impulse.

I assumed that it never occurred to the husband that Edna was leaving him. He assumed that she wanted the whole family to move to the little house and she didn't correct him in the matter.

[Janine]

I assumed that it never occurred to the husband that Edna was leaving him. He assumed that she wanted the whole family to move to the little house and she didn't correct him in the matter.

papayahed, that's a good point. Perhaps he was deluded about the real significance of the little house and what it meant to Edna. I felt as Dark Muse did in that, Edna did not seem to think out clearly, just what would come next for her or for her family; she acted without any regard to the outcome and the circumstances that would follow her decisions. She was indeed 'impulsive' in her actions and desires. Obviously, she was impulsive at the ending of the story as well, or she would not have done what she did.

[papayahed]

ok, here's the $1000 question - Why did Edna do it? I can't believe it was just about Robert.

[Dark Muse]

I think it was because she was always somewhat weak compared to her friends. She did not have the strength and independence to live as Mademoiselle Reiz had done so, as a woman who was beholden to know man and dedicated to her art, but she also did not have the forbearance to accept her "fate" as it were as Madame Ratigonolle. She never was able to simply stand on her own, I think that is part of the reason she started to the flirtation with Arobin during the time that Robert was gone. She simple shifted her dependency from her husband onto Robert.

Perhaps she could not bare the thought of having to return to her husband though she never officially "left" him, that is they were still bound by marriage she had begun to detach herself from him, but with Robert removed from the picture, there was little she could do but simply return back to the life she had before she met Robert, but after she had within herself already severed those bonds she could not fathom returning to it again.

It reminds me of The Story of An Hour, in which a woman discovers that her husband was killed, and by her own admission he was not cruel to her, and it did not seem as if she was dreadfully unhappy in her marriage, but she was overwhelmed with a great sense or freedom at realizing she was no longer beholden to a man, than she discovers it was a mistake and her husband was in fact still alive, she simply was unable to give up that new found freedom even though it only lasted a moment, and just dropped dead right on the spot.

[papayahed]

I was thinking along those same lines but she had the little house, she could have lived there, but as you said I think she just wasn't strong enough to live in that little house.

And why did Robert leave, was it because as Mrs Rat. said, he looked at it like a "summer fling" and Edna was fooled into thinking it was something more?

[Dark Muse]

I think Robert left becasue he genueinely cared for Edna, and he did not want to be whatever the male equvilavient of a mistress would be. He didn't want to just be the guy on the side. Perhaps when Edna left him to call upon Mrs. Rat. (haha I love that) it was a sign or realization to him that he would never fully have Edna she would always be torn between the two different lives.