Thomas Mann on Freedom and Equality

[PoeticPassions]

"It is a strange fact that freedom and equality, the two basic ideas of democracy, are to some extent contradictory. Logically considered, freedom and equality are mutually exclusive, just as society and the individual are mutually exclusive." -Thomas Mann

What do you think about Mann's statement? Do you agree fully, partially, or not at all? I am interested to see what you litnetters think about the idea of freedom and equality, and whether they can both fully co-exist... And are they comparable to the analogy of the individual and society? Individuality can exist within society, but individualism cannot, since it undermines the idea of common humanity and shared community. One must distinguish between the two...

But can freedom undermine equality in the same way? Or does equality undermine freedom?

Also, it would be great to discuss some literature that touches upon this subject, or books that have shown this dichotomy (either as functioning or not).

[mmaria]

I don't understand why Thomas Mann thinks that freedom and equality exclude each other. On the contrary, it seems to me that they are in a complete accordance with each other.
But, maybe I don't understand politics, since this is a kind of political consideration of the subject.

[Virgil]

I totally agree with Thomas Mann. But it does depend on what he means by equality. There is equality of opportunity and equality before the law and equality of outcome. Both equality of opportunity and equality before the law does not violate freedom. In fact freedom depends on them. But equality of outcome, and this is what I think Thomas Mann is talking about, is in opposition to freedom. In order to ensure equality of outcome, then society must take away from those that have earned more. To take from someone what he has duly, legally, and rightfully earned is a violation of his freedoms. If slavery, the opposite of freedom, is providing labor against one's will, then if someone is taxed (and therefore stripped of his earnings) half of his earnings and therefore forced to pay at the point of a gun (because that's how the government comes to your house to arrest you) half of his earnings, then that person is only half free.

[shortstoryfan]

Perfect freedom and perfect equality cannot exist. Even if you try to achieve them independently, they are impossibilities. It seems the issue of the line between different forms of government has been emphasized in the media lately, because of issues the United States is facing. I agree with parts of Thomas Mann's statement, but I cannot totally agree that perfect freedom and perfect equality are contradictory. On a mental level, I can comprehend it, but in a deeper sense, it goes against something inside me. I think we sometimes have a skewed view of democracy, and that effects the results which we can achieve. Freedom and democracy are not very dependent on each other, but we sometimes forget that. People have different ideas on the roles of government, but I think they would be suprised at the results that changing things can achieve--and suprised by the results that staying true to the governing documents and ideas can achieve.

[pinkkdaisy]

certainly perfect equality cannot exist- period. and an attempt to force it into existence will inevitably compromise freedom. I think political correctness, quotas, positive discrimination, are all examples of this.

however, this quotation is difficult to comment on, taken out of context. it does not work independently without a development of what exactly Mann means by 'Logically considered'