Ancient Greeks were a Bunch of Crybabies

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

At least, they are in Homer's [I]The Odyssey[I]. men are always wailing and crying and weeping, it is bizarre. For today's standards of what a man should be, at least. Isn't Odysseus/Ulysses supposed to one of the manliest men ever?

Did the Greek's view crying as a normal behavior, or is this just a dramatic effect on Homer's part? Also, was this the norm of Greek literature at this time (if there is any other literature of this time that we know of, that is) or what? In one part it describes how Ulysses has spent his entire seven years with calipso crying every day because he couldn't get home. Just weird, by today's standards.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Did the Greek's view crying as a normal behavior, or is this just a dramatic effect on Homer's part? Also, was this the norm of Greek literature at this time (if there is any other literature of this time that we know of, that is) or what? In one part it describes how Ulysses has spent his entire seven years with calipso crying every day because he couldn't get home. Just weird, by today's standards.

I am thinking that Odysseus did more than cry with Calipso the beautiful sex goddess!

[mono]

In a lot of ancient Greek literature, there exists a profuse amount of emotions, and every emotion has its peak in every epic tale, play, and poem. In both of Homer's works, The Odyssey and The Iliad, sadness definitely sticks out, but both also contain intense violence and happiness, as well, such as in every battle description of the Trojan War, or when Odysseus rejoices with his wife, Penelopeia - all very intense emotions. It seems easy to get caught up in the sadness and all the crying, and, as Homer portrayed Odysseus as a large, muscular man with a thick beard, it sounds a little ironic to imagine such a masculine individual weep, but he displays his anger and happiness with reciprocating intensities.
To answer your second question, many other Greek plays and poetry contain similar extents of emotion, such as anything by Sophocles, Aeschylus, Euripides, Aristophanes, or Sappho. As opposed to contemporary literature, where I feel as though a lot of emotion gets supressed or represented through metaphors, Greek literature never held back its expressions; even in Greek philosophical works, such as in Plato's books, very intimate relationships were clearly communicated and almost acted out in conjunction with the philosophical dialogues.

[The Comedian]

Just weird, by today's standards.

Yeah, just cultural differences really. And if you think the Odyssey is weird by today's standards, just check out Plato's "Symposium" -- it'll bring weird to a whole new level.

[Wilde woman]

Isn't Odysseus/Ulysses supposed to one of the manliest men ever?

Did the Greek's view crying as a normal behavior, or is this just a dramatic effect on Homer's part?

Well, I think the ancient Greeks had a very different definition of "manliness" than Western culture does today. The manliest men were the warriors, the ones who went to war. At the time there was major emphasis on camaraderie and the relationships between men (just think about Achilles and Patroclus). In Greek epics in general, I think we see most men show emotion over their fallen comrades. This makes sense, doesn't it?

Plus, I think it might be held against men if they didn't show emotion in these situations. Important traits that a "manly man" is supposed to have are patriotism and piety. If he doesn't mourn his fellow soldier and fallen comrade in war, it's practically akin to treason or blasphemy. Remember how important the dead, especially dead family/friends, are to the ancient Greeks. They must be properly mourned and buried with all kinds of rituals. In Odysseus' case, he cries amongst the Phaiakians when they unknowingly retell his story for just this reason...he's reliving all the losses he suffered at Troy.

But Odysseus' other tears are of a different kind because he is no longer fighting in a war. As you said, it's partly Homer's dramatic effect because he wants to show Odysseus as a man who, after 20 years at war, values his family above all else. So it makes sense that he would cry for Penelope those seven long years he's imprisoned with Calypso, and when he reunites with Telemachus.

I'd also like to point out that you might not see such emotion from other men in Greek works because they don't have the loving relationship with their families that Odysseus does. Orestes' or Oedipus' families, for example, are as dysfunctional as they get. :p

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

For me, it isn't so much that the men cry and cry, but I kind of want to yell the old, "Quit crying and do something about it!" That's just me though, lol.

[Basil Valentine]

If you read any of the old Arthurian classics (Parzival, Le Morte D'Arthur, etc) you'll find that the knights in those are always crying/weeping too, not to mention embracing and kissing.

These modes of behaviour were seen as fitting/honourable in the chivalric code prevalent when these books were written, but standards change over long periods of time and they don't fit very well with Hollywood's macho imagery today, that's all.

[prendrelemick]

Homers characters were complete people. So you have mighty heros who sulk, brave men who's courage deserts them, kings who display petty jealousy.

The problem is more to do with Hollywood than Homer and its belief that anything other than a one dimentional character will confuse the punters.

The ancient Greeks strove to become the complete man, to display "arete" or excellence in all fields, courage, sensitivity, cleverness, learning, generosity. Todays macho man would fall well short of this ideal.

[mono]

Homers characters were complete people. So you have mighty heros who sulk, brave men who's courage deserts them, kings who display petty jealousy.

The problem is more to do with Hollywood than Homer and its belief that anything other than a one dimentional character will confuse the punters.

The ancient Greeks strove to become the complete man, to display "arete" or excellence in all fields, courage, sensitivity, cleverness, learning, generosity. Todays macho man would fall well short of this ideal.
Amen to that! I would have payed double the price in theaters in the film Troy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332452/) to see Brad Pitt's character, Achilles, cry when losing his close, intimate friend Patroclus, or Brendan Gleeson's character, Menelaus, to at least show a tear when Helen runs away with Paris; instead, they sulked and pouted, yes, more like men, but also more like children. Nah, we could never portray such emotion with masculine characters, even if the BCE poet created them that way.
I entirely agree that Homer created complete characters; emotions seem as much an ingredient to a person as his/her will, logic, virtue, and intelligence, all of which have their role in The Iliad and The Odyssey. Characters cried, and that Homer created more than half of them as men seems irrelevant; it only appears unacceptable and weak because of our contemporary views upon how men and women should act. Somehow, I think many current readers would have perceived Penelopeia as less feminine if she had physically battled her hopeful suitors during Odysseus' disappearance.

[kelby_lake]

At least, they are in Homer's [I]The Odyssey[I]. men are always wailing and crying and weeping, it is bizarre. For today's standards of what a man should be, at least. Isn't Odysseus/Ulysses supposed to one of the manliest men ever?

Did the Greek's view crying as a normal behavior, or is this just a dramatic effect on Homer's part? Also, was this the norm of Greek literature at this time (if there is any other literature of this time that we know of, that is) or what? In one part it describes how Ulysses has spent his entire seven years with calipso crying every day because he couldn't get home. Just weird, by today's standards.

In the myths, the incest probably messed them up a bit.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

It seems like such a easy escape to blame Hollywood. The crying, if it was portrayed as it is in the book, would be way overdone to the point of being comical in a movie. Not because it wouldn't be "manly," just ridiculous.

And I don't really see complete characters being made in Homer's Odyssey, as the exploits of Odysseus are extremely random. He is at one point portrayed as heroic, and at other times malicious and crule. Like the part when his nurse is washing his feet, and figures out who he is, and cries in joy, he grabs her by the throat and threatens to kill her if she gives him away. What? That comes out of no where, and that always seems to happen.

[prendrelemick]

If you are looking for consistancy of behavior at times of stress. then you are already moving away from real life. Homer's characters I find more believeable because of this very inconsistancy .

Compare the characters of, say James Bond and Achilles. I would suggest that the latter is a truer dipiction of a human being, full of human frailties and contradictions.

You are right it was a bit glib of me to blame Hollywood for tears to be thought of as unmanly. But it is without doubt a comparatively modern trend, probably started by those stiff upperlipped Victorian empire builders.

I also believe that the reason the story of Troy was held to be of a true event by many of its readers throughout the centuries, is partly because the characters are so real.

[curlyqlink]

men are always wailing and crying and weeping, it is bizarre. For today's standards of what a man should be, at least.
Why would men who lived 2700 years ago be expected to conform to today's behavioral standards?

A man weeping these days may appear ridiculous. Well, he'd look pretty ridiculous wearing a skirt and sandals-- and yet that's how ancient Greek warriors dressed. In his day, he'd have looked ridiculous wearing pants! He would have looked foolish if he did not weep when faced by great sorrow-- it would have been as inappropriate then to repress his emotion as it is today to express it.

The emotion remains the same. The approved manner of expressing it has changed. Where's the rub?


He is at one point portrayed as heroic, and at other times malicious and crule.
What was heroic then was defined rather differently from what is called heroic today. Not surprising really-- in three millennia, things change!

Heroes in Greek literature are not heroes like Superman. They are not "nice guys". They are godlike. And the gods of the classical world were not compassionate, or nice, or kindly. They were powerful and strong-willed. They were arbitrary because that was their right. They made the rules.

Heroes were those men who were able to make their own rules. They determined what was fair. It was the role of inferior men to obey them. Odysseus takes the servant by the throat because he is her lord and master. If he were a cruel master, he would have slit her throat instead. Much as he goes on to slaughter the suitors in what to us may seem an extreme of bloody, violent retribution. To Homer, Odysseus killing them all is merely an expression of his rightful authority.

[JohnAvg]

what's your problem?

[ksotikoula]

Isn't Odysseus/Ulysses supposed to one of the manliest men ever?
Crying doesn't make him less than a man, just more human. In fact (and this goes for Romantic literature too) the fact that a man, despite being hard, is seen overcome by his feelings and crying, just emphasizes the nature and the strength of these feelings. So, I don't know with certainty, if the Ancient Greeks were more open to demonstration of feelings (it is a too specific detail to read anywhere), but their art and their celebrations in honor of passionate and emotional Gods shows that they recognized their needs. Anyway, I never felt bothered by it.


In one part it describes how Ulysses has spent his entire seven years with Calypso crying every day because he couldn't get home.

This is the central meaning of Odyssey: the longing to come home. If Odysseus was satisfied there and made no effort to come back, then there would be nothing "heroic" in his story. He is just a human being, that is being constantly frustrated in his struggle to come back to a beloved country and family. Separation from dear people and homeland is very hard to bear for people that have such kind of values. The heroic in Odysseus is that he did not give up, that he would rather die in the effort, not in his being especially strong or super-humanly clever. That is why he continues to appeal as an image.