Is heaven closer to capitalism?

[Emmy Castrol]

If Heaven had a political structure, would it be closer to capitalism?

I think most people would find it easier to imagine heaven with a socialist or communist structure, due to books like Utopia, but the law of increase (which is part of the law of creation) is more aligned with capitalism.

And, if you examine Lucifer's fall in Milton's Paradise Lost, including how he persuades a third of the angelic host, his tactics are similar to the ideology represented in past communist societies - 'Give us equality'.

[JBI]

Yeah, socialism is Satanic! Seriously, Biblical law stresses the importance of community more than the individual. Rabbinic traditions pick this up especially - the Tulmud is obsessed with man's responsibility with his neighbor. Rabbi Akiva, the great Sage who essentially laid the foundation for what would become Judaism thought that society should function over three things: the Torah, the Jewish Old Testament canon, as well as the Oral Torah, which later became the Mishnah, Work, and on good deeds. The whole Golden Rule of treat thy neighbor as you would be treated seems to come out of his interpretation of the text, which later translated itself into Christian circles.

Jesus too encouraged community over the individual. The collective is more important in this life, it would seem, as everyone is a part of something, a religion.

If anything, I think the books advocate a certainly more left-leaning system than pure capitalism. Of course, the terms wouldn't formulate themselves until Adam Smith, really, so there is no framework, but I think it's safe to say collective responsibility to the whole is stressed - miserly actions and self interest are considered sinful. Dante himself puts these "opportunists" which I think one could consider the pure capitalists, in the land between heaven and hell, in a limbo.

Of course, one would argue the other way. I'm sure neo-cons would at any rate. The essence to me of the books however, lies in its support of the communal and of the love of your neighbor. That I think is really what the Jesus in especially Matthew was getting at.

As to the question of how Heaven is run - well, that is all speculation of course, but I think, from textual perspectives, it can be supposed that the text implies an existence outside of the material, and therefore negates the idea of capitalism, and self interest, as it really is outside of time, and therefore not physical, but completely spiritual.

Strangely though, the Torah Sages, argue that one second in the human world is worth more than an eternity in the after-world. Christian doctrine seems to argue the other way, so it makes for an interesting discussion. I think the fact that Christian thought declares that a messiah has already come, sort of cheats the believers in the religion of an actual purpose - the goal in life, it would seem, is to live one's life, but really to die and enter heaven.

Leopardi, in his Zibaldone, which hasn't been translated into English, argues that the devout Catholic mother, ultimately wants her children to die early, but from natural causes, so that they will not have time to grow up and sin. I think that is an interesting point to question.

But even so, I can't help but think of the ridiculousness of a such a question - from my understanding heaven is outside of material, and therefore the acquisition or division of material wealth is not really in existence.

[Emmy Castrol]

Strangely though, the Torah Sages, argue that one second in the human world is worth more than an eternity in the after-world. Christian doctrine seems to argue the other way, so it makes for an interesting discussion. I think the fact that Christian thought declares that a messiah has already come, sort of cheats the believers in the religion of an actual purpose - the goal in life, it would seem, is to live one's life, but really to die and enter heaven.

Thanks JBI, you've given me lots to think about (as if there weren't enough riddles in Christianity and Bible to begin with! :)) and I find the above you say especially interesting. I agree with you that Christian doctrine does seem to emphasize more on the new life rather than appreciating all the possibilities that are contained in this one.

My personal opinion is that humankind is obligated (by their own desire) to strive to make this life the very best it can be until it emulates how they desire it to be in heaven. Capitalism, on the earthly realm, relies on self-interest to animate but what if that is only because of the scarcity of money (wealth)? Gold is worth a lot on earth because it is scarce here but perhaps it is plentiful in heaven? In heaven, the Bible says, the spiritual treasures of a good and virtuous soul is more valuable.

The aspect of capitalism that interests me then (and please enlighten me if there is a more appropriate term for the concept than capitalism, which I suspect seems rather vulgar in this context) is that of talent - or to put it materially, 'specialisation' - I cannot fathom a heaven that does not encourage complete and efficient utilisation of the individual talent to do the will of God for the good of the whole heavenly community.

So, in my thinking, although I agree with you that the Biblical text emphasizes on the importance of love for the community, there is also emphasis on talent (Matthew 25). Instead of the fruits of labour distributed by equality, it is distributed by love (Matthew 20), which makes sense to me, as I suspect God works hardest of all.

Do the socialists have it wrong, heaven is more like capitalism? (there's that crude word again!)

[billyjack]

capitalism is barely working in the real world. i'd hope heaven would come up with something a bit more ethical

[blazeofglory]

In fact capitalism is a worse political system. And people generally think there is no other systems than capitalism and communism, and therefore people choose capitalism. But there is a third political economy that can be partly socialistic and partly capitalistic, and that is a mix economy that contains characteristics of both, socialism and capitalism. In fact the idea of capitalism is rooted in cut-throat competition, and in point of fact the idea that capitalism creates employment and of course it will help the country in the long run is a flawed idea and it never can help the poor.

Oh! I apologize it is a literature forum and politics should not have primacy over the rest.

[JBI]

In fact capitalism is a worse political system. And people generally think there is no other systems than capitalism and communism, and therefore people choose capitalism. But there is a third political economy that can be partly socialistic and partly capitalistic, and that is a mix economy that contains characteristics of both, socialism and capitalism. In fact the idea of capitalism is rooted in cut-throat competition, and in point of fact the idea that capitalism creates employment and of course it will help the country in the long run is a flawed idea and it never can help the poor.

Oh! I apologize it is a literature forum and politics should not have primacy over the rest.

Also, what manufacturing and businesses exist in Heaven? What material. Whether capitalism works or not isn't really a question. Whether heaven has an economy is a better one. From my understanding of Christian theology (Jewish traditions don't have a sense of Heaven), everything is spiritual, and there is no want or work. Therefore it is safe, I think, to say there is no economy either, and therefore no economic diagram.

[digna1954]

So many things are defined categorically rather than dimensionally. My truth is that the latter reflects our natural world and fits phenomenologically. For example, Personality Disorder vs. Normal Personality as to a continuum from the most healthy to the most maladaptive, Black vs. White as to black to white, Capitalism vs. Communism as to Capitalism and all the shades towards and back from Communism.

[JBI]

So many things are defined categorically rather than dimensionally. My truth is that the latter reflects our natural world and fits phenomenologically. For example, Personality Disorder vs. Normal Personality as to a continuum from the most healthy to the most maladaptive, Black vs. White as to black to white, Capitalism vs. Communism as to Capitalism and all the shades towards and back from Communism.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said - care to elaborate, I find your language obstructed by lack of verbs and subjects while using unclear pronouns (perhaps it is just me), would you mind expanding?

[Tsuyoiko]

No. Jesus turned the tables in the Temple. If capitalism isn't welcome in the Temple, I'm sure it's not welcome in heaven either.

[subterranean]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said - care to elaborate, I find your language obstructed by lack of verbs and subjects while using unclear pronouns (perhaps it is just me), would you mind expanding?

Gosh, I love you!

[blazeofglory]

If Heaven had a political structure, would it be closer to capitalism?

I think most people would find it easier to imagine heaven with a socialist or communist structure, due to books like Utopia, but the law of increase (which is part of the law of creation) is more aligned with capitalism.

And, if you examine Lucifer's fall in Milton's Paradise Lost, including how he persuades a third of the angelic host, his tactics are similar to the ideology represented in past communist societies - 'Give us equality'.

Heaven is of course like capitalism from one lens, for in heaven we kind of fulfil all our material needs, not to mention spiritual needs.

[an7hrax]

vote one communism

[blazeofglory]

Those who are in heaven will have to fall off a cliff in heaven after their hoardings are used up, and so are with the capitalists.

[Sapphire]

Those who are in heaven will have to fall off a cliff in heaven after their hoardings are used up, and so are with the capitalists.
Could you please explain this?

I have no knowledge of Heaven in any way (religious ideas or otherwise), but the idea that you should fall of a cliff does not sound very attracting to me. Heaven as an abstract feature always seemed to me a place/idea where everything would be "right", thus not a place which might end: once in Heaven, it will be good.
But then again, if (as in this thread) one would think there would be a political structure there - wouldn't downfall be amongst it? :confused:

Am I right (I am no native English speaker) in thinking "hoardings" to be simular to "valuables"? I really wonder what valuables one can use up in Heaven...

I do see the link between hoardings and capitalism :)

I am afraid I only have questions and no answers in this matter...

[The Comedian]

Yeah, I think heaven is much more like communism, only with a benevolent dictator and benevolent lieutenants. And there would be chocolate cake, lots of it for everyone. And all those little punks who made fun of me when I was younger, they would be there too. Only they would be ants, and I could step on them whenever I wanted a self-esteem boost. Or better yet, I could smush 'em with my dungeons and dragons books. . . . And if they needed little ant money, they would have to call me dungeon master and ask politely. . . . And I would decide if they got any heavenly chocolate cake or if they had to only eat ant cake, which would be made of birdseed, pine needles, and some ground asphalt.

Oh, wait. What was the subject again? :lol:

[Trystan]

Is heaven capitalist or communist? It's neither. It's more like a crack house.

[blazeofglory]

Paradisical pleasures are often termed and we associate heaven with pleasures.

For that matter capitalism seems to have some remote connection with heaven.

For capitalism engenders comforts in life and it is then likened to heaven.

[Virgil]

Really this subject is so ridiculous. Capitalism and communism are means of production and distribution. If heaven (and I make an assumption here) is a place where physical needs do not apply then there is no need for either capitalism or communism. There is no economic system.

As to which economic system Christ would endorse, well that is all speculation. Christ says give onto Ceasar what is Caeasar's, meaning he is basically absolving Himself from any economic system. His concerns are metaphysical and one could possibly interpret his words as to accept whatever governmental state (and therefore economic system) that one finds himself under. Even the statement, "it is harder for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to get to heaven" (quoting from memory here) does not state that we should redistribute the rich man's money; it is the rich man's free choice as to how to live his life. Christ begs for alms and food; he doesn't organize a movement to redistribute. Begging is a one on one individual free exchange. Plus his fishing seems rather self sufficient to me.

Yes Christianity has been historically anti-commerce, whether under feudalism, capitalism, communism, or whatever, with the softening of its stance in the high middle ages. (Actually St. Thomas Aquinas was not anti mercantilism at all.) But it has not endorsed any economic system as far as I can see. What it requires is a respect for the individual. During the 20th century Christianity has actually gravitated toward capitalism. If its real concern is the alleviation of poverty, then no system has ever done better than free market capitalism. In the past two hundred years, the world has deminished poverty to an extent unimaginable hundreds of years before. That's a fact. The places where dire poverty exists are usually places that don't have a capitalistic economy. China has recognized this in spades.