Is Lying Immoral (Sinful, Illegal)?

[coberst]

Is Lying Immoral (Sinful, Illegal)?

I was raised in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools and was taught by nuns that lying was a sin. To me and my fellow Catholic kids lying was the most serious sin we could imagine. We were taught that we had to “examine our conscience” before confession and to tell the priest of our sins in the confessional.

How does a kid tell the difference between a “white lie” and a “sin lie” or any of the other forms of “lies” that we saw adults indulge in? Surly Mom and Dad did not lie! It was all a great puzzlement!

The nuns taught us all about moral concepts; of course, they did not use such big words. I have later learned that the nuns taught us in accordance with a classical, also called objectivist, theory of categorical structure.

“According to the classical or objectivist theory of categorical structure, there must be a set of necessary and sufficient conditions the possession of which alone makes a speech act a lie…As a Moral Law theorist and an absolutist, Alan Donagan defines the essential features of a lie as “any free linguistic utterance expressing something contrary to the speaker’s mind”.”

Linda Coleman and Paul Kay have discovered facts that indicate that “the category of lie exhibits prototype effects; that is, there are certain central instances of speech acts that speakers easily and noncontroversial recognize as lies.”

What are these prototype effects that Coleman and Kay speak of?

Lie is a concept that displays a core structure surrounded by a “fuzzy” penumbra (fringe) of less clear-cut cases about which the speaker may be justifiably unsure as to their moral objectionability: such a penumbra might contain such things as mistakes, jokes, exaggerations, white lies, social lies, and over simplifications.

Coleman and Kay found that these core cases that everyone could easily agree upon as being lies, i.e. those prototypical cases of clear-cut lies, fulfilled all three of the following conditions: 1) the speaker is confident that the statement is erroneous, 2) the speaker is intent upon deceiving the listener, and 3) the statement is in fact erroneous.

The less prototypical instances of lying fulfilled one or two conditions but not all three. Furthermore, tests were run and it was discovered that subjects typically rated the conditions in order of “importance”: 1) being most important and 3) being the least important. Subjects seemed to agree on the relative weights given to the individual elements.

We see here that lie does not follow the classical objectivist strict categorization. A fixed set of essential conditions do not exist and there is considerable internal structure to the concept that are of a great deal of importance in determining whether a statement qualifies as a lie or not.

Quotes from Moral Imagination by Mark Johnson

[Eugenie]

Lying is a destructive thing for the most part. If you were raised Catholic then you know that your being taught that lying is so serious goes back to the first lie in the Garden.
Because the enemy of God and man took some truth and wrapped lies around it , Eve, being innocent and with out guile believed and encouraged her husband to violate a law and in doing so allowed the sovereignty of God to be accounted as nothing. It also took the world and all in it that was given as a gfit by God to man , took that and gave that authority to satan who is called the god of this system of things, of all corruption and murders and every vile and hideous thing that came to mankind thereafter and was not amended until the coming of the Christ,at which time He paid the price of our sin and annuled it and gave us a new start.
So of course lying is a damaging terrible thing in the main.
However, there are instances when to tell the truth would destroy innocents, such as in the story of the three men sent to spie out the land of Jericho. When Rahab the harlot was questioned about knowing the whereabouts of those men she lied so their lives could be spared and they in turn saved her and her household when the walls of Jericho were destroyed.
In a court of law to tell a lie is a terrible terrible thing, for words in a court of law mean life and death in serious cases and that could mean tragedy for some innocent person.
That is why one needs to examine one's conscience, but I would add that this must be done with the help of the Holy Spirit, Third Person of the Trinity. When Christ the Lord was about to ascend to heaven he told his sorrowful followers that he had to go in order that the Helper would come to aid them. When He comes He will lead you into all truth and righteousness. So by asking the Holy Spirit for wisdom when you examine your conscience you will be able to tell the difference and not fall into a habit of lying in a destructive way.

[crystalmoonshin]

It's said that there are no white lies. Lies, even uttered to protect someone, is still a lie. And I believe that it is sinful to lie. Isn't stealing a sin? When one lies, he is stealing the truth.

Just last week, I was asked by my prof where my two seatmates were. Knowing fully well that they skipped class to study for an exam, I couldn't answer her although my classmates and I had already agreed to tell our prof that we didn't know. I couldn't open my mouth to speak. I don't know why. I feel that if I tell her the truth, she may get offended that soem of her students take her class for granted.

I guess, the best way to avoid lying is to just keep silent.

[Tyler Self]

If your donkey was stuck in a ditch on the sabbath, would you pull it out?

[blazeofglory]

The Mahabharata is a great storehouse of wisdom and that this is a matchless philosophical treatise is indisputable. There is a story in the Mahabharata in which a thief runs past a saint ensued by a police patrol. The police asks the saint whether the latter has seen the thief and the latter denied having seen and saved the culprit.

One should telling lies for if it is for a better cause and in the welfare of others.

I am not a secitionist or holder of a particular faith and beleive in the universality of spirituality regardless of religions. I have come across plenty of good stories of moral principals in the Mahabharata, very beautiful anecdotes and if we read them thoroughly we will kind of elevate our souls.

[Silas Thorne]

It's said that there are no white lies. Lies, even uttered to protect someone, is still a lie. And I believe that it is sinful to lie. Isn't stealing a sin? When one lies, he is stealing the truth.

Just last week, I was asked by my prof where my two seatmates were. Knowing fully well that they skipped class to study for an exam, I couldn't answer her although my classmates and I had already agreed to tell our prof that we didn't know. I couldn't open my mouth to speak. I don't know why. I feel that if I tell her the truth, she may get offended that soem of her students take her class for granted.

I guess, the best way to avoid lying is to just keep silent.

But isn't not saying anything just like a white lie here anyway, because you are nonverbally giving information (by not saying anything) which suggests you don't know where the people are.

I agree with blazeofglory on this one. There are situations where lying could be a highly moral action.

[crystalmoonshin]

But like in the story presented by Blazeofglory here taken from the Mahabharata a saint just protected a thief. Is it considered moral and upright to protect someone who's done bad? Of course, we are all sinners but to protect a thief by a lie is not good. He shouldn't have been considered a saint.

Forgive me, but I haven't read the Mahabharata fully so I don't know of this story.

[coberst]

The purpose of this OP was to compare the nature of categorization in traditional objectivist thinking and the thinking that is recognized by new cognitive science theories.

Traditional objectivist, one might call it positivist, thinking considers that the world is made up of things that fit neatly and completely within containers and that these categories express that which is necessary and sufficient for any object that fits into that category.

SGCS (Second Generation Cognitive Science) has developed revolutionary new theories about the functioning of the mind. SGCS informs us that in many cases categories do not fit neatly into containers. Lying is one such category fits sloppily within containers. There exists fuzzy overlap and difficult things that must be considered.

All this is to say that if SGCS is correct then we are all very far off base when we think of categories as always fitting neatly within containers.

One has to read the OP and think about it a bit in order to get the idea. The idea is very important.

[Eugenie]

Tyler, I certainly would.
The Lord Jesus healed on the sabbath and the pharisees flipped out, accusing him of breakin the law. He answered " Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. I am Lord of the Sabbath."

He also said :"My Father in heaven keeps working and I keep working". That is a paraphrase. So yes, and help anyone else on the Sabbath, always.

[blazeofglory]

In fact customarily truth must be told, but this is a very understated and discreet subject. But being a good observant we must use circumspection while making judgment. Truth must be told, and this is what we are taught. We are at loggerheads when it comes to making a right decision. For we must see the impact truths or falsehoods can make. For at times truth at their face values can turn out to be very detrimental and under such circumstances truth must be dodged, and if untruth can save people we should not use truth.