Is is ok for a grown man to cry?

[Virgil]

First look at the video and then answer the poll question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv0kNQssxHU&feature=related

Now I have to say, the video had me doubled over laughing. :lol: I'm sure you're laughing too. I'm not sure who is more pathetic, the man, his wife, or Maury Povich for putting this on TV. But it is hilarious, and a lot of the humor deals with the man's reactions, especially his crying. Ok this is a simple question. Is is ok for a grown man to cry? Is a man balling like a baby, though somber if it were in person, but humorous on after thoought.

[kevinthediltz]

I think it is perfectly fine for a man to cry. I am a man, (and I work on a ranch which in this society mean I am supposed to be the model cowboy) and I have wept more tears than I care to think about. It helps. So dont be afraid to let it all out.

[Dori]

I'm a male and I enjoy weeping every once in a while.
(And I'm not afraid to admit it!)

[Zee.]

Real men cry.
If you don't cry, grow up and start doing it.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/LevisTravels/Ed_Harris.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/LevisTravels/Laurence_Fishburne.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/LevisTravels/Benicio_del_Torro.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/LevisTravels/Daniel_Craig.jpg

[subterranean]

This man is pathetic! The woman, I don't want to say she's stupid for taking him back over and over (once is understandable, but even a donkey doesn't fall in the same hole twice). She is just ________.

To answer the question: yes, it's OK for a grown man to cry. :nod:

TV and exaggerations!

[Lokasenna]

There is a time and a place.

I'll freely admit that a sad ending to a novel or film will have me weeping like a baby. In terms of real emotional hurt though, I'd rather go and cry somewhere private and lick my wounds in peace - certainly not on trash television!

[NikolaiI]

First, isn't this more appropriately a Ask Bakiryu question? :D

I will watch the video, though I haven't yet. Then I'll vote and join the discussion...

[SleepyWitch]

haven't watched the video yet.
I'm a bit torn between


Only on rare occaisions, and then only tears, no weeping sounds.
Of course, men should occaisionally weep in public; they're no different than women.

and


Of course, men should occaisionally weep in public; they're no different than women.

I'm a woman and I don't normally cry in public myself, so I can understand why some men don't like to cry. It depends on the occasion. I don't think anyone, male or female, should cry in public about silly things like Valentine's day or the death of some silly celebrity that they never met. But people should cry about war, mass murder, the death of a loved one etc. .. even when someone was really mean to them or broke their heart or something.
Anyways, in general I agree with lima

Real men cry.
If you don't cry, grow up and start doing it.

[Zee.]

When i see a man cry, i know for sure that something inside them is broken.
It's a lot different to when a woman cries..

[LostPrincess13]

I've just watched the video. Is this for real???

[mono]

The guy on the video seems a more pathetic over-actor than Vin Diesel; even if it were real, which I doubt, that guy has no real justification for his acts, let alone to mourn what his wife has returned to him what he has given multiple times - adultery.
As to grown men crying, this thread has offered me some relief. Of course, I do not overdo it like the arse on the video, but I will admit that I, at least, tear up fairly easily, and I do not mean only while chopping onions; to drive me to bawling takes a lot of devastation, however. I try to avoid crying in public, less out of embarrassment, more out of displaying such a deep emotion that the public has no need to witness, like any other intense emotion (happiness, anger). Men have as many tear ducts as women, and, though some suppose men as firm, expressionless beasts, even crocodiles have hearts.

[Madhuri]

That video seemd fake; maybe the channel wanted some TRP ratings. The emotions of that guy werent real. And that woman was a fool.

On topic, It is okay for men to cry...

[GX4146]

ok to cry but not in public.

i even remember crying at the end of rocky... hmmm...

[Taliesin]

Of course it is okay for grown men to cry- I do it too - for example, when I happen to cook and chop onions, tears just come, I can't help it.

[librarius_qui]

said.~

[papayahed]

How does the video fit in with the question at hand? What a horrible video, it seems pretty fake and ridiculous. I want my six minutes back.

As to the question - of course it's ok for grown men to cry.

[Pensive]

Of course, yes. Why shouldn't they? They have got a heart, they have got eyes, and they have got tear-ducts....

In fact I usually find the guys who cry kind of cute.
(Maybe I am just plain evil I enjoy seeing people moaning and moping :p).

[Virgil]

:lol: I got a kick out of the video, and whether the question fits exactly can be debatable. The video example is obviously extreme. But he's crying and crying out loud and open several times.

I haven't answered the question yet. I'm slightly torn between these two:

Never in public, but if no one knows, ok.
Only on rare occaisions, and then only tears, no weeping sounds.
I'm sorry, I get a repulsive reaction when a man is crying out loud. Actually I'm not sure I've seen it, a man in loud, vocal weeping. The only times I can remember ever crying as an adult where people saw me in tears is when my dog died and when my father died, and it was just tears and no sound. Everything else has been in private. Like mono, it would take a lot for me to break down vocally in public. In fact I have no idea what that could possibly be.

[Bitterfly]

Ha ha, I love the last choices on your poll, Virgil!! :p

It's not very sexy to see a man cry... I had a boyfriend who cried a little too easily and believe me, it was a definite turnoff... That said, I keep my tears to myself as well.

[sofia82]

I've not seen the video yet!
But it is ok if a man cries in public of course for a good reason and not crying so loud and for everything like a child. I even don't like a woman cry loudly let alone man.
There is a problem in my culture as it is a kind of patriarchal one: from the beginning, it is said to the boys that "A boy never cries, Are you a girl that you cry?" and I don't like these. Why a man cannot cry? Doesn't he have feeling?

And one more thing, I cannot tolerate a man who cries more than me :))

[sofia82]

Only on rare occaisions, and then only tears, no weeping sounds.
Of course, men should occaisionally weep in public; they're no different than women.

I chose the first one though I prefer the second but "no weeping sound" was important for me than the second "no difference". But in general the second is what I mean. It was better you mentioned the weeping sound in the second too :D

[hoope]

Only on rare occaisions, and then only tears, no weeping sounds.

yea ! i guess they can .. i mean its ok
but i think that its so precious like in really hard times & when they really need to .

Besides some men really think that they shouldn't cry which is wrong coz they think its weak from them to.
Tears is a way to express som deep hard emotion whether for women or men .. but in the case of women they cry for anything :-P

[papayahed]

:lol: I got a kick out of the video, and whether the question fits exactly can be debatable. The video example is obviously extreme. But he's crying and crying out loud and open several times.


yeah, but if that man isn't acting he's a poor excuse for a human being let alone a man.


I'm sorry, I get a repulsive reaction when a man is crying out loud. Actually I'm not sure I've seen it, a man in loud, vocal weeping. The only times I can remember ever crying as an adult where people saw me in tears is when my dog died and when my father died, and it was just tears and no sound. Everything else has been in private. Like mono, it would take a lot for me to break down vocally in public. In fact I have no idea what that could possibly be

If the emotions are valid I don't see any reason why a man has to suppress his natural emotional response. But I can see the problem with showing emotion in public but I think that's true of both men and women.

[AuntShecky]

I've come to the conclusion that no one, neither male nor female, over the age of eight should cry in public. What is
the motivation for public displays of emotion? Perhaps they are demands for sympathy or still another way in which this self-centered age foists its excesses upon the
world.

I'm not suggesting that "emotion" (as ill-defined and amorphous that notion maybe) should always be repressed.
We learned from Freud the ramifications of keeping one's
"feelings" bottled up. But when histrionics and temper tantrums intrude upon those who are merely trying to go about their business, then that kind of behavior is really
inappropriate and yes, childish.

[Pensive]

If the emotions are valid I don't see any reason why a man has to suppress his natural emotional response. But I can see the problem with showing emotion in public but I think that's true of both men and women.

Yeah.
If I have any problem with men crying in public, I don't think it's any more than that I have with women.

[baddad]

Social conditioning always tries to override natural instinct. It is easier for "BIG BROTHER" to run the wheel of commerce and power, easier for the elite to run the show if the peons are brainwashed into thinking they are thinking.
Is it alright for a man to cry? One may as well ask if it is okay to breathe, is it alright to sigh, to sing, to sleep, to love........

[Petrarch's Love]

Well, the guy on the Maury show is ridiculous, but I think a woman acting that way would be just as ridiculous. I think, though that there shouldn't be a problem with men expressing emotion when they truly feel it. While, I know that there is a traditional societal belief that men are supposed to be less emotional in public, and that it may be true that people react differently to men crying, I think it can be hard for both men and women to cry in public. I'm with Aunt Shecky, that overboard hysterical weeping, especially about trivial things, probably reflects badly on members of either sex. While in many ways a woman's tears may be more acceptable to society, I'm not sure if people have respect for women who are constantly crying and carrying on about everyday things. On the flip side, I don't think people have any less respect for a man who shows emotion on a moving occassion.

As a woman, I should say that my own relation to crying in front of others is not at all unlike what Virgil describes. I feel deeply embarrassed at the thought of crying publicly, and on the few occasions when I have broken down in front of a group of people, they have been silent tears. I think my mom may be the only person in my adult life who has seen me really sob, but even with family I often feel that I should deal with my own emotions on my own rather than burden others with them especially when I know that others are also upset and I should be there for them to lean on.

[1n50mn14]

Of course it is. Everybody feels emotions, and nobody should think they're above their emotions and above expressing them- even men. I wrote a blog about this once, It's Okay to Cry, because my boyfriend doesn't think it's okay to cry- not even in private, absolutely alone, let alone in public!

The video was entirely over the top, however... and crying on trash telivision like a blubbering idiot is slightly different than crying to your wife or girlfriend in private.

[Emil Miller]

I was brought up to believe that men don't cry and it was only sissys that do.
However, people have different levels of sensibilty and will react accordingly.
I remember a scene that took place on a train travelling through Europe from Belgrade in Yugoslavia, as it then was, to Ostend in Belgium. The journey was slow and very long and it was impossible to sleep, so I went into the corridor to stretch my legs. It was about three O'clock in the morning and there were two people standing a few compartments further along. It was a young man and woman and they were holding each other close but, because the corridor was in semi-darkness, they didn't see me. After a few minutes the train pulled into some deserted station in Belgium and stopped.
I could hardly believe it when the girl got off in what seemed the middle of nowhere at dead of night but they were obviously distraught at having to part. When the train pulled out of the station, the man broke into the most terrible sobbing.
I don't know the story behind that scene but since then I have never thought that it was wrong for a man to cry.

[Virgil]

I've come to the conclusion that no one, neither male nor female, over the age of eight should cry in public. What is
the motivation for public displays of emotion? Perhaps they are demands for sympathy or still another way in which this self-centered age foists its excesses upon the
world.

Several women have said the same thing, and I quite agree. I don't particularly like seeing a woman sobbing out loud either. Perhaps the better question is why is it less startling (or repulsive, to use my reaction) to seeing a woman sobbing than a man?


I'm not suggesting that "emotion" (as ill-defined and amorphous that notion maybe) should always be repressed.
We learned from Freud the ramifications of keeping one's
"feelings" bottled up. But when histrionics and temper tantrums intrude upon those who are merely trying to go about their business, then that kind of behavior is really
inappropriate and yes, childish.
I quite agree. Who says that the holding back of tears is emotional repression? The sobbing is a form of expressing that emotion. Who says that a person who feels the pain internally is repressing feelings? It's just a different form of expression. And frankly it's, as you characterize it, more adult.


Well, the guy on the Maury show is ridiculous, but I think a woman acting that way would be just as ridiculous. I think, though that there shouldn't be a problem with men expressing emotion when they truly feel it. While, I know that there is a traditional societal belief that men are supposed to be less emotional in public, and that it may be true that people react differently to men crying, I think it can be hard for both men and women to cry in public. I'm with Aunt Shecky, that overboard hysterical weeping, especially about trivial things, probably reflects badly on members of either sex. While in many ways a woman's tears may be more acceptable to society, I'm not sure if people have respect for women who are constantly crying and carrying on about everyday things. On the flip side, I don't think people have any less respect for a man who shows emotion on a moving occassion.

As a woman, I should say that my own relation to crying in front of others is not at all unlike what Virgil describes. I feel deeply embarrassed at the thought of crying publicly, and on the few occasions when I have broken down in front of a group of people, they have been silent tears. I think my mom may be the only person in my adult life who has seen me really sob, but even with family I often feel that I should deal with my own emotions on my own rather than burden others with them especially when I know that others are also upset and I should be there for them to lean on.

Yes, your comments and Auntie's are similar and I have quoted them together. My response to Auntie for the most part applies to your comments as well.

As a side note, I don't particularly believe that repression of feelings leads to psychological problems. That's all pop culture whooey. Actually even Freud says that repression is a healthy defense function.

[mono]

Social conditioning always tries to override natural instinct. It is easier for "BIG BROTHER" to run the wheel of commerce and power, easier for the elite to run the show if the peons are brainwashed into thinking they are thinking.
Is it alright for a man to cry? One may as well ask if it is okay to breathe, is it alright to sigh, to sing, to sleep, to love........
Well said, old friend. :)

I remember a scene that took place on a train travelling through Europe from Belgrade in Yugoslavia, as it then was, to Ostend in Belgium. The journey was slow and very long and it was impossible to sleep, so I went into the corridor to stretch my legs. It was about three O'clock in the morning and there were two people standing a few compartments further along. It was a young man and woman and they were holding each other close but, because the corridor was in semi-darkness, they didn't see me. After a few minutes the train pulled into some deserted station in Belgium and stopped.
I could hardly believe it when the girl got off in what seemed the middle of nowhere at dead of night but they were obviously distraught at having to part. When the train pulled out of the station, the man broke into the most terrible sobbing.
I don't know the story behind that scene but since then I have never thought that it was wrong for a man to cry.
What a mysterious story, very poetic, too.
I suppose my parents raised me slightly opposite, to consider it okay to show emotions, state your mind, and not to hold back anything, within reason, of course. I would think it easy to call my mother emotional, intense, and full of expression - never a dull moment with that funny woman; my father seems much more quiet, modest, sober, and lacks a lot of expression. Though he appears iron-clad and difficult to effect, I have seen him cry twice in my life, and both times, he did very silently without shame, but his indescribable mellow intensity, if that makes sense, could have moved mountains.


*Edit: speaking of weird videos on YouTube, did anyone else see that interview with Joaquin Phoenix and David Letterman? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAQ4x7rgS6I) . . . awkward! :eek2:

[Scheherazade]

The first rule of masculinity is - You do not cry. The second rule of masculinity is - You do not cry...

[kilted exile]

Not read through the whole thread, so as usua; I may end up repeating what has already been said.

There are times and places where a man can cry, but in general in public isnt one of them (except for at sporting events). A man has to be solid & dependable, a shoulder for women to cry on but not a source of crying himself - except when alone

[Emil Miller]

Not read through the whole thread, so as usua; I may end up repeating what has already been said.

There are times and places where a man can cry, but in general in public isnt one of them (except for at sporting events). A man has to be solid & dependable, a shoulder for women to cry on but not a source of crying himself - except when alone

Why at sporting events? A day later it will be relegated to the dustbin of sporting history.

[Janine]

First look at the video and then answer the poll question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv0kNQssxHU&feature=related

Now I have to say, the video had me doubled over laughing. :lol: I'm sure you're laughing too. I'm not sure who is more pathetic, the man, his wife, or Maury Povich for putting this on TV. But it is hilarious, and a lot of the humor deals with the man's reactions, especially his crying. Ok this is a simple question. Is is ok for a grown man to cry? Is a man balling like a baby, though somber if it were in person, but humorous on after thoought.

First off, I don't fall for this; it has to be a total put-on - come on, naive Virg! I do agree that is made me laugh like crazy - the ending when he throws himself down on the steps/platform. He is a bit overweight, don't you think; she is too? Everytime they came back on, he had cheated on her with a half dozen more woman...the numbers kept increasing; did you notice that? Who would want either of them anyway - wasn't too believable. If they are for 'real', they both need professional help.

Why didn't Maury Povich stick to his original broadcasting and not get involved with this silly stupid show? I agree it's pretty funny, but this is the not the type crying we are talking about here. These people are either actors or nuts and his tears don't even seem real - more like crocidile tears.

I think it is interesting that most of us voted for the one category. I actually admire a man for being secure enough to shed tears, when the occasion arises and he is truly being emotional. So Dori, I admire you. It shows a healthy psyche.

Hey Virgil what are tears with no sounds? Silent tears? haha..you are just too funny for me! :lol:

[librarius_qui]

The first rule of masculinity is - You do not cry. The second rule of masculinity is - You do not cry...

hm ... cold! :cold:

[rozreads]

I remember when I was very young seeing that scene in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof with Paul Newman when he cried. I thought it was extremely moving and very brave of him. Men just didn't cry in movies, especially not leading men. It made me a lifelong fan.

[Virgil]

The first rule of masculinity is - You do not cry. The second rule of masculinity is - You do not cry...
Let me tell you, I'm not surprised you picked this. Actually knowing you, I bet you apply it for women as well. You're one tough lady and I really respect that. :)


Not read through the whole thread, so as usua; I may end up repeating what has already been said.

There are times and places where a man can cry, but in general in public isnt one of them (except for at sporting events). A man has to be solid & dependable, a shoulder for women to cry on but not a source of crying himself - except when alone
Basically I feel the same. I just allowed the occaisional slip when something ecrutiating may happen. I noticed you didn't vote Kilt.


First off, I don't fall for this; it has to be a total put-on - come on, naive Virg! I do agree that is made me laugh like crazy - the ending when he throws himself down on the steps/platform. He is a bit overweight, don't you think; she is too? Everytime they came back on, he had cheated on her with a half dozen more woman...the numbers kept increasing; did you notice that? Who would want either of them anyway - wasn't too believable. If they are for 'real', they both need professional help.

Well, it's that trash TV crap and I can never tell how much of it is a put on and how such is serious. I'm sure it's exaggerated, but there must be some element of truth in it. God, could they have gotten any uglier pair? They both cheated on each other. The question is who would go with them anyway?


Why didn't Maury Povich stick to his original broadcasting and not get involved with this silly stupid show? I agree it's pretty funny, but this is the not the type crying we are talking about here. These people are either actors or nuts and his tears don't even seem real - more like crocidile tears.
Because it sells I guess. I'm not home during the day to watch this junk but apparently someone does. I don't think they are actors. The reactions may be exaggerated but I think the situation is real.


Hey Virgil what are tears with no sounds? Silent tears? haha..you are just too funny for me! :lol:
Tears with no sounds are just tears running but no sobbing.

[Dark Muse]

No one, man or woman should cry in public. I do not beleive in steroptypical gender roles, I just think that crying is a self-pitying act that does not solve the problem or acomplish anything. It is a melo-dramatic display to get attention and to have other people feel sorry for you.

There are occasions where it may be appropriate to cry, but such should be done in privacy.

[a_little_wisp]

No one, man or woman should cry in public. I do not beleive in steroptypical gender roles, I just think that crying is a self-pitying act that does not solve the problem or acomplish anything. It is a melo-dramatic display to get attention and to have other people feel sorry for you.

There are occasions where it may be appropriate to cry, but such should be done in privacy.

I agree, that's why I don't cry in public. It really doesn't accomplish anything and I look really lame when I cry - tearful and snotty and way messy. If I cried prettily, it may be different. :lol: Althooough...

Now, I'd have to make exceptions for a few places. Say, for instance, one of our waitresses already has been having a bad day and a grouchy old man says, "The service here is terrible." She goes back into the back and cries - there aren't many places to go and cry in a restaurant, and we only have one gross bathroom which you can't exactly slip into when you're busy serving three tables. Tears, they happen. I don't think the waitress was purposely seeking attention, but certainly there was a subconscious need to be comforted.

My personal opinion, however, is about the same as Aunt Shecky's and Muse's. I would feel embarrassed if I went into the kitchens and started bawling. And truthfully, if a man was bawling in public because of some personal drama, I would initially think "Oh dang, this dude does not have his stuff together." I would think the same of a woman.

Again, an exception: You just got a call on your cell that your mom died.

... Right: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

But this? This video? Ridiculous. If this is real, shame, shame on them both. They're making fools of themselves just so they can get on camera - that's my opinion. People obviously get a kick out of it, and the subjects obviously like the attention.

This is all 'in public' though.

Is it ok for them to cry in general? ...

Yes. It's ok.

Would it lower my opinion of them? again, I think it all has to do with the situation. When I'm being petty and emotional - "why didn't they pick ME for part of Ophelia :bawling:" - I'd prefer a guy to talk some sense into me than cry along with me. Iiie... kind of hope he'd feel the same?

Taliesin:


"Of course it is okay for grown men to cry- I do it too - for example, when I happen to cook and chop onions, tears just come, I can't help it."

I laffed.

The truth about crying is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpy3OqSPd-U

[~Sophia~]

That was hysterical! Thanks Virgil! I so needed a good laugh! Springer's influence everywhere! Do you think Connie approves of this crap? They must really need the money! LMAO.

[Joreads]

Well here in Australia we have had terrible bushfires as most of you know with terrible loss of life. Our Prime Minsiter (male) was filmed crying this week as he saw the damage and spoke to people that has managed to get out alive. I for one do not believe this was "put on" and I have to say my respect for him went up this week. So it is OK for men to cry and in fact it shows you their human side.

[Zee.]

Kevin Rudd is full of ****.

[Joreads]

Kevin Rudd is full of ****.

I don't disagree but I have to say the emotion I saw seemed very real to me and I couldn't hrlp but be impressed that he let himself be so exposed in such public glare.

[mono]

There are times and places where a man can cry, but in general in public isnt one of them (except for at sporting events).
Okay, the testosterone just kicked in here. I only follow one sport religiously - baseball, and I have stuck with the Boston Red Sox through thick and thin (same with the Atlanta Braves, but they have not done well in years). In 2007, when the Red Sox won their second World Series within 3 years, when Jonathan Papelbon threw that last strike to the Colorado Rockies, ending a 4-game sweep . . . yeah, tears come to my eyes just thinking of it. :nod:

[Scheherazade]

Let me tell you, I'm not surprised you picked this. Actually knowing you, I bet you apply it for women as well. You're one tough lady and I really respect that. :) Oh, Gawd...

My post was a mere (and feeble) attempt at humour after reading the first option in your poll: "No, never, it violates the rules of masculinity."

Otherwise, I really don't care who cries, where and when. To be honest, I find it rather amusing that we have a thread dedicated to the discussion of "male crying".

I believe any man (and woman) who is comfortable in their masculinity (and femininity) will not have such preconceived / prescribed "rules" as "Thou shall not cry in public."

Crying is just another emotional need; if it is OK to show one's happiness, anger, impatience, annoyance and so on, why not their sadness? When one is happy, they can laugh loudly; when one is sad or frustrated, one can cry too.

[TheFifthElement]

The human race is doomed.

[Virgil]

Oh, Gawd...

My post was a mere (and feeble) attempt at humour after reading the first option in your poll: "No, never, it violates the rules of masculinity."

Otherwise, I really don't care who cries, where and when. To be honest, I find it rather amusing that we have a thread dedicated to the discussion of "male crying".

I believe any man (and woman) who is comfortable in their masculinity (and femininity) will not have such preconceived / prescribed "rules" as "Thou shall not cry in public."

Crying is just another emotional need; if it is OK to show one's happiness, anger, impatience, annoyance and so on, why not their sadness? When one is happy, they can laugh loudly; when one is sad or frustrated, one can cry too.

:D Well, you're still one tough lady. Sure it's ok to show ones sadness. But how is the question.


The truth about crying is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpy3OqSPd-U

:lol: That's right, that's a perfect characterization of a man crying. :D

[librarius_qui]

Oh, Gawd...

My post was a mere (and feeble) attempt at humour after reading the first option in your poll: "No, never, it violates the rules of masculinity."



Of course it was, & it was very good!
And IT IS the first (and second) law of manhood: "thou shalt not cry"!

Ev'ryone knows that! Or should ...


:crash:

[Shalot]

Everybody has to cry. It's a release. Sometimes you just got to. Ever seen Dane Cook's Vicious Circle stand up comedy show? He does a bit on crying. It's on youtube. There's some language but it it's funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9MkUpzfsfk

Edit: Oh - I just saw that someone else posted the Dane Cook bit on crying. Oh well - it's okay. There's two links in case one should fail...

[librarius_qui]

The first rule of masculinity is - You do not cry. The second rule of masculinity is - You do not cry...

& all right: I do cry when watching certain movies, I mean, there are certain movies that, unexpectedly make me cry. Sometimes expectedly.

Human being cries when he's face to face with ... himself, I think. Or with what he isn't, but believes possible to be(come). Or to reach.

Even so, last time it happened when I was among people, I tried to hide the tears. It was tough!

A man doesn't cry!

-x-

Once, I was in a theatre room, and the movie was so exciting (inspiring, somehow, it was a battle scene), that I had to stand up, and go to the side of the room. I did so. I could not be sitting. I had to be in battle position!

(...)

That was funny.

And in some movies I cry (scream) outloud of fun, in battle scenes (LotR). And in others I laughed all the time! (Indiana Jones and the Skull Whatever ...)~

[Scheherazade]

:D Well, you're still one tough lady. Yeah, tough like an overdone steak.


& all right: I do cry when watching certain movies, I mean, there are certain movies that, unexpectedly make me cry. Sometimes expectedly.Care to name some?

[Chava]

I have seen so many men cry, and never thought it a poor thing. Anyone who cries will have reason to do so, and I believe that connectivity with ones emotions is a valuable thing. How many times have we not been struck by something and wished that tears would roll down our cheeks instead of clutch at our throats and flood us with unreleasable sadness?

[librarius_qui]

Care to name some?

Can you keep secrets? :D

[Virgil]

Yeah, tough like an overdone steak.
I bet this was modeled after you. ;)
http://www.skillsone.com.au/shared/images/articles/2008/tough_woman.jpg

[papayahed]

I bet this was modeled after you. ;)
http://www.skillsone.com.au/shared/images/articles/2008/tough_woman.jpg

OH NO! Are you suggesting Scher is old enough to be the model for Rosie the riveter???;)

[Virgil]

:lol: Ok, Papaya, get me in trouble. And once she gets mad at me, I may have to break the rules of masculinity and break down and cry. :bawling:

[seanlol]

there is a time when it is ok to weep.

[*Classic*Charm*]

I don't know what I think about this thread...

Of course it's perfectly acceptable and normal for men to cry, but I won't lie- I have no idea what to do with myself when I see a man crying. If a woman cries, it's easy- you put your arms around her. But I'm lost when I see a man cry.

I see it at work, when men have pet's that are sick or if they've just lost a pet, and it's so sad, to see a man cry when his dog dies. It absolutely breaks my heart.

[SleepyWitch]

Of course it's perfectly acceptable and normal for men to cry, but I won't lie- I have no idea what to do with myself when I see a man crying. If a woman cries, it's easy- you put your arms around her. But I'm lost when I see a man cry.

yeah. I have no problem with my hubby crying. Most of the time it's my fault anyway because I made him cry.
But I don't even know what to do with myself when e.g. my boss admits that he has a cold. I don't know what to do when 'tough' guys admit weakness they might be embarrassed if I show that I understood that they've just admitted they are not 100% tough. So I usually just grunt like guys do.
Plus, one can't go hugging random men because they might misunderstand it.

[librarius_qui]

I don't know what I think about this thread...

Of course it's perfectly acceptable and normal for men to cry, but I won't lie- I have no idea what to do with myself when I see a man crying. If a woman cries, it's easy- you put your arms around her. But I'm lost when I see a man cry.

I see it at work, when men have pet's that are sick or if they've just lost a pet, and it's so sad, to see a man cry when his dog dies. It absolutely breaks my heart.

A man cries with
1. beautiful scenes, moments, for instance: a father, when he's told his child was born
2. releef situations he feels he can't do anything about, for instance: a father, when he's told his child was born
3. extreme pain (either physical or psychological/spiritual)

Crying for a man has a lot to do with catarsis.

It's different from women. Men don't stop to cry. Seldom do we cry because of thoughts or feelings. A woman can simply cry, and it's easy for a man, around to understand it, and support her, because we know you cry.

Men get harder and harder, as we grow up. As children, many of us were crying-babies. We cried when we didn't like something, when we were hungry, when we wanted a toy mom said: "no, you'll have to wait for Christmas".

As we grow up, we find out that crying doesn't solve our problems, so, we go in search of something that will solve. (However, we neglect the need of crying, so, grown-up men know they need moments in his daily life to let emotions flow; even if not through tears. And, usually, alone, because of manhood pride.)

Women have different way of thinking. Because you have a different physiology. Your body bleed ... It's scary! When a man bleeds, he faints! It isn't in man's nature to bleed.

So, when a man cries, there's nothing anyone can do about it, but himself. There's no way of supporting it, because he doens't want to be supported, he's just in face of an emotion (so, it's relieef), or a trouble (and so, it's a moment of change ways, or accept defeat), and it's something of himself.

Therefore, women shouldn't worry about it.

That's what I think.


[Aw, forgot that: and we (human beings) also cry of fear.]


Libri#

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Alright, man...I admit. I cried once or twice. But I wasn't bawling. It was just a few drops of tears...

[librarius_qui]

Oh, I forgot this, too: men cry in compassion for other people's suffering. Jesus, the one considered messiah by "half" this planet, cried, when he saw a friend of his crying.

[Virgil]

yeah. I have no problem with my hubby crying. Most of the time it's my fault anyway because I made him cry.


What the heck do you do to the poor guy, beat him with a stick? :lol:

[Dori]

Oh, I forgot this, too: men cry in compassion for other people's suffering. Jesus, the one considered messiah by "half" this planet, cried, when he saw a friend of his crying.

(Oh, 'tis true, 'tis true.)

[Emil Miller]

What the heck do you do to the poor guy, beat him with a stick? :lol:

I hate to think what she does to him Virgil, but I know for a fact that she wears Doc Marten boots.

[SleepyWitch]

What the heck do you do to the poor guy, beat him with a stick? :lol:

:D nah, I don't resort to such lowly methods. Psychological cruelty usually does the trick :D Poor hubby.

[Nightshade]

Not read through the whole thread, so as usua; I may end up repeating what has already been said.

There are times and places where a man can cry, but in general in public isnt one of them (except for at sporting events). A man has to be solid & dependable, a shoulder for women to cry on but not a source of crying himself - except when alone

Ok I saw this and even though its been a few days since it was posted ( i was away but kind of not!) I have to say - and I need to point out that you are unfortunate to have posted this in one of those rare times when my rampant inner feminist is on the loose! So ..

WHAT!!!!??? personally i think noone should cry in public, its just wrong and awkward and yeah... that was sexist *skowl*

[jhonerliz]

Its ok for me for the men to cry. Men who cry are courageous. They are not afraid to show what they really feel.
My husband do cry.
I also saw my twin brother crying.
I already saw many men crying and it doesn't affects their masculinity. In fact, it leads to more understanding about what or how they feel in a certain situation.

[librarius_qui]

Men who cry are courageous. They are not afraid to show what they really feel.



I don't quite agree with it.

A man (actually noone thinks) doesn't think about it when he cries. He cries, and that's all.

To hide tears is normal. (& Not only to men ...) There are moments to cry. A wife at his side interfeers less than someone else. It isn't common for a man to cry in the middle of his friends. Unless someone's just died, or something.

However, women are more sensitive to pain. But this isn't the matter in this thread, anyway.~

[manolia]

I do not like public display of emotion in general (from men and women equally). Especially grief. It is something very personal to me.

[master chief]

crying is for the children... soldiers dont cry...

[Janine]

Quote by Chava

I have seen so many men cry, and never thought it a poor thing. Anyone who cries will have reason to do so, and I believe that connectivity with ones emotions is a valuable thing. How many times have we not been struck by something and wished that tears would roll down our cheeks instead of clutch at our throats and flood us with unreleasable sadness?

I fully agree with this, Chava. Sadness turned inward becomes depression. Women who cry are more likely to divert long periods of depression. Men should take this as an example. They keep everything bottled-up inside and they often harbor resentment or depression. I feel a man who does break down and shed tears occasionally, when the occasion calls for it, such as a death or other dire reasons, is a much healthier individual and more secure for the fact that crying, does not embarrass them. If God didn't wish men to cry, he would have eliminated their tear ducts! Geez, I too, wonder why we even have a thread dedicated to men's crying...it is rather humorous to me.

[Virgil]

Whatever your opinion on whether men should cry in public, can we at least stop the pop psychiatry? There is no evidence that holding back emotion publically leads to mental illness. Mental illness is a chemical problem in the brain. It is not this silly "if I hold emotions I will go crazy" canard. If this were the case, then why are not millions of men that do not publically cry mentally ill? Why am I not mentally ill? (No, despite what some might think I'm not :p) Why is my mother, who is a very publically emotional person, on depression medication? By this logic, would Italians, who are probably more openly emotional, less inclined to mental illness than say, Scandinavians, who by stereotype are supposed to be less emotional in public (though I admit I don't know that from personal experience)? Show me the statistics.

And even though a man or woman does not publically display sobbing, doesn't mean they don't let that emotion out in private.

Let's stop with the pop psychiatry.

[librarius_qui]

Let's stop with the pop psychiatry.

Whatta ye want from us, Virge??! We're all pop here! hahaha! My graduation's in Latin Language & Literature! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Janine]

Whatever your opinion on whether men should cry in public, can we at least stop the pop psychiatry? There is no evidence that holding back emotion publically leads to mental illness. Mental illness is a chemical problem in the brain. It is not this silly "if I hold emotions I will go crazy" canard. If this were the case, then why are not millions of men that do not publically cry mentally ill? Why am I not mentally ill? (No, despite what some might think I'm not :p):lol:

You said it, not me! I do sometimes wonder:goof:.....hahaha. Hey, Virgil, is this outburst directed at me? I am talking mental illness in my post. I merely stated that holding back emotions does lead often to depression; also I was not necessarily talking about public tears, although I see nothing wrong with those. Say you just saw your only child killed or your son came home dead from a war, don't you think it would be acceptable to see a father cry in these instances? Believe me, I have known men who lost sons tragically and would not show a shred of a tear or even emotion; later on they had deep-seeded problems and I can't help but think they never dealt with their feelings towards the tragedy.


Why is my mother, who is a very publically emotional person, on depression medication? By this logic, would Italians, who are probably more openly emotional, less inclined to mental illness than say, Scandinavians, who by stereotype are supposed to be less emotional in public (though I admit I don't know that from personal experience)? Show me the statistics.

Probably because your mother has a stubborn son like you! ;):lol: One would seriously have to do a study; I actually think some have been done so you would just have to research the findings. I don't think this is pop psychiatry - psychiatrists treat with medications and are fully trained physcians. We talking about more about psychological impact on the individual, not about full-blown mental illness. Many people suffer depression everyday - some is just natural to life and some is a true mental disease.


And even though a man or woman does not publically display sobbing, doesn't mean they don't let that emotion out in private.

Agreed; but if circumstances warrant it in public I don't see anything wrong with showing the emotion. Like I said in extreme occurances such as seeing a loved one be killed in front of you, then I think tears are totally necessary. Often on new reports one sees men crying over losing their families during natural disasters. Those tears are very public; I don't see anything unnatural about them or demeaning to the poor man or woman, for that matter.


Let's stop with the pop psychiatry. Is that phrase something like your old catch-all, psychobabble? haha We are not talking psychiatry to begin with.

[Virgil]

Whatta ye want from us, Virge??! We're all pop here! hahaha! My graduation's in Latin Language & Literature! :lol: :lol: :lol:
:D I have found literature students to be the absolute worst when it comes to pop psychiatry. Perhaps because they deal with characters in books who's psychology is important to understand. But because something is in a novel doesn't make it real.


:lol:

You said it, not me! I do sometimes wonder:goof:.....hahaha. Hey, Virgil, is this outburst directed at me?
:D Well, you weren't the only one. Others in the thread have brought it up. Perhaps yours was the most comprehensive statement on the subject.


I merely stated that holding back emotions does lead often to depression
How do you know that? Where is the evidence for that? Did you learn that in school or did you pick that up in anectdotal conversation? Where's the evidence? How come millions of people who don't publically show emotion are not mentally ill?


Say you just saw your only child killed or your son came home dead from a war, don't you think it would be acceptable to see a father cry in these instances? Believe me, I have known men who lost sons tragically and would not show a shred of a tear or even emotion; later on they had deep-seeded problems and I can't help but think they never dealt with their feelings towards the tragedy.
I think I voted for rare occaisions. That might be a rare occaision.


Probably because your mother has a stubborn son like you! ;):lol: One would seriously have to do a study; I actually think some have been done so you would just have to research the findings. I don't think this is pop psychiatry - psychiatrists treat with medications and are fully trained physcians. We talking about more about psychological impact on the individual, not about full-blown mental illness. Many people suffer depression everyday - some is just natural to life and some is a true mental disease.
That's right, many people suffer depression, and I bet they were no different in displaying emotion that the ones that are depressed. And how do you know which is the cause and the effect? Why do you assume that holding emtion leads to mental illness instead of mental illness leading to holding emotion?


Is that phrase something like your old catch-all, psychobabble? haha We are not talking psychiatry to begin with.
Haha, yes!! It's all psychobabble and you know how psychobabble sets me off. :D

[TheFifthElement]

A word on depression:


That's right, many people suffer depression, and I bet they were no different in displaying emotion that the ones that are depressed. And how do you know which is the cause and the effect? Why do you assume that holding emtion leads to mental illness instead of mental illness leading to holding emotion?
Apart from the fact that little of the above statement makes sense, I think there's a valid challenge in there, specifically: 'And how do you know which is the cause and the effect?'.

I think there needs to be a better understanding of depression. Too many people are on anti-depressents when they don't need to be. It's too easy for the doctor to prescribe instead of understand.

I've known 4 people who have suffered with 'true' depression. In all 4 cases they were ordinary people who were faced with, what they felt were, impossible life choices: a man whose wife wanted children and he did not faced with a choice of having children he doesn't want or losing his wife; a man who considers himself (and is) a good father feeling tethered to his disabled daughter facing a life in which he is never free from her or the guilt of, on some level, wanting to be free from her; a man who has to choose between his children and his wife, a woman who has to choose between the life she wants and the life she has, caring for sick parents. In all cases they have been people who have 'coped' but at some point reached that point where life had ground them down completely. My impression is that their brain faced this as a 'computer says no' scenario and simply shut down normal operations. In all cases it was only after acknowledging the true cause of their problem that they started to recover. Depressed people don't cry. Depressed people don't do anything. But often depression starts with self-deception, and in that respect not facing, but rather withholding 'truth' from yourself can lead to depression.


I have some questions:

- why is it okay to laugh raucously in public but not cry?

- why is public crying often greeted with derision or disgust, and not compassion?

- the man who slumps down in the street and cries may have lost himself, the person who passes him by with a sneer - what's their excuse?

- what are you afraid of?

- Is 'image' more important than 'honesty'?

[librarius_qui]

I have some questions:

- why is it okay to laugh raucously in public but not cry?

- why is public crying often greeted with derision or disgust, and not

- the man who slumps down in the street and cries may have lost himself,

- what are you afraid of?

- Is 'image' more important than 'honesty'?


- why is it okay to laugh raucously in public but not cry?
laughing has a different effect than crying, no doubt of that!

- why is public crying often greeted with derision or disgust, and not compassion?
not always; usually, to tell the truth, when anyone's crying at a public place, he/she is helped, either by compassionate people, or to local civil servants, so, I don't see your point with this question, 5th ...

- the man who slumps down in the street and cries may have lost himself, the person who passes him by with a sneer - what's their excuse?
--

- what are you afraid of?
fear that makes a man cry isn't racional ones, usually; it has to do with facing a moment he thinks he's defeated, he thinks he can't go on, something like; he cries, he thinks, he figures things out, and he goes ahead; when situation isn't that bad (death, relevant loss (job, a lot of money ...), something like), we don't even cry, we simply figure it out, and go ahead; perfectly normal, but not perfectly rational
you won't see a man thinking "I'm going to cry, because of ..."; no, it's something of moment

- Is 'image' more important than 'honesty'?
it depends on the person; man are taught (and NOT by parents, on the contrary ...) not to weep, not to cry; it's "nature" (actually, it's human nature, which is culture ...); effects of this in charater will vary on the person; each one will figure these questions/matters, and learn from them in a way; we hope people learn that being honest is better, but even an honest man may face a very honest moment of trying to hide his tears, because he's ashamed of them, because he is man
so, there's no logic in it; there's culture as well

& it isn't bad; good that men are what we are, and women are what you are, otherwise, how could we get along so well together? :D

[TheFifthElement]

:lol: Lib, I love that you answered the questions.

They are more aimed at those who think one shouldn't cry in public.

I disagree with your answer to question 2. In my experience most people walk by. And I did say often not always ;)

I found this statement really interesting:

it has to do with facing a moment he thinks he's defeated,
because I'd say the same is probably true for women, and children.

I wonder, then, if crying is still equated with a lack of power? Women and children are less 'powerful' physically than men therefore the point at which they experience frustration or defeat is lower, or rather it is more common, so they cry more. For a man to cry in public it is a public admission of defeat or powerlessness, hence, perhaps, the reason some have admitting to finding men crying revolting? Why crying is considered somehow reprehensible where laughing (which is equally pointless and, in some cases, quite revolting!) is not?

[librarius_qui]

:lol: Lib, I love that you answered the questions.

(...)

I found this statement really interesting:

because I'd say the same is probably true for women, and children.

I wonder, then, if crying is still equated with a lack of power? Women and children are less 'powerful' physically than men therefore the point at which they experience frustration or defeat is lower, or rather it is more common, so they cry more. For a man to cry in public it is a public admission of defeat or powerlessness, hence, perhaps, the reason some have admitting to finding men crying revolting? Why crying is considered somehow reprehensible where laughing (which is equally pointless and, in some cases, quite revolting!) is not?

Now, this is 'very interesting thought, lass! :thumbs_up
I think we might agree with it ...

As the crying and laughing, ... Theatre has always ... er, in the Western world, since the Greeks, meant to make people to cry. Nowadays, we are still faced with it, watching certain movies ...

As well as laughing.

It's a little different subject, though, because both tragedy and comedy are meant for us to cry and laugh by comparing our own tragedies or stubornesses with other people's (characters'). It's different of seeing someone crying in the streets, all right.

But, even when someone laughs at the streets, for instance, when someone stumbles, he's behaving like "oh good that it was him, not me!" (and then you go, and help the person, even if you had even only internally laughed ...). (Or you don't.)

(Helping people outside is a matter of how grave the situation is, in a function with how "hurry" (&/or selfish) you are. I like to walk on the streets without hurry. And look, I live in a reputedly violent city ...)

--

I think laughing isn't considered revolting because it's someone else's defeat, and we live in a cruel world. Others can be defeated, but you?! ...~

[Eugenie]

If a man is alcholic and is a crier, it just makes me sad. But if he is a 'normal' whatever that is gentleman and something hurts him enough to make him cry, it is devestating to me. I usually will cry too, don't know why .

[AimusSage]

I sometimes cry from laughing...

Also I always cry myself to sleep, cry when I see a really, really sad film, The type where everyone dies in the end. I also cry when I peel unions, or when I am sad, but not so much when I am sad, it's better to not cry when sad and take action instead, although that action usually involve a bottle of the good old Glenlivet.

But I never cry in public. Not that I have anything against crying in public, it's just annoying because my make up gets all messed up, so I figure I rather wait a bit and cry when I get home instead or take a bottle of the Glenlivet. whichever I find is more comforting.

Now that I think about, I cry a lot. :lol: well if you belief all I said that is. At least the Glenlivet is still resting on the mantelpiece.

[Virgil]

A word on depression:


Apart from the fact that little of the above statement makes sense, I think there's a valid challenge in there, specifically: 'And how do you know which is the cause and the effect?'.

Hehe, I see I bungled the writing. I meant to say the following:

That's right, many people suffer depression, and I bet they were no different in displaying emotion that the ones that are not depressed.


I think there needs to be a better understanding of depression. Too many people are on anti-depressents when they don't need to be. It's too easy for the doctor to prescribe instead of understand.
Anything dealing with brain function is not completely understood. But it's a lot more understood than you might think. Here is a good understanding of depression: http://www.medicinenet.com/depression/article.htm

I think what causes depression is pertinet to the conversation and so I will qute it entirely:
What are the causes of depression?

Some types of depression run in families, indicating that a biological vulnerability to depression can be inherited. This seems to be the case especially with bipolar disorder. Studies have been done of families in which members of each generation develop bipolar disorder. The investigators found that those with the illness have a somewhat different genetic makeup than those who do not become ill. However, the reverse is not true. That is, not everybody with the genetic makeup that causes vulnerability to bipolar disorder will develop the illness. Apparently, additional factors, possibly a stressful environment, are involved in its onset and protective factors are involved in its prevention.

Major depression also seems to occur in generation after generation in some families, although not as strongly as in bipolar I or II. Indeed, major depression can also occur in people who have no family history of depression.

An external event often seems to initiate an episode of depression. Thus, a serious loss, chronic illness, difficult relationship, financial problem, or any unwelcome change in life patterns can trigger a depressive episode. Very often, a combination of genetic, psychological, and environmental factors is involved in the onset of a depressive disorder.

Nothing in the universe is as complex and fascinating as the human brain. The over 100 chemicals that circulate in the brain are known as neurochemicals or neurotransmitters. Much of our research and knowledge, however, has focused on four of these neurochemical systems: norepinephrine, serotonin, dopamine, and acetylcholine. In the new millennium, after new discoveries are made, it is possible that these four neurochemicals will be viewed as the "black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood" of the 20th century.

Different neuropsychiatric illnesses seem to be associated with an overabundance or a lack of some of these neurochemicals in certain parts of the brain. For example, a lack of dopamine at the base of the brain causes Parkinson's disease. Alzheimer dementia seems to be related to lower acetylcholine levels in the brain. The addictive disorders are under the influence of the neurochemical dopamine. That is to say, drugs and alcohol work by releasing dopamine in the brain. The dopamine causes euphoria, which is a pleasant sensation. Repeated use of drugs or alcohol, however, desensitizes the dopamine system, which means that the system gets used to the drugs and alcohol. Therefore, a person needs more drugs or alcohol to achieve the same high feeling. Thus, the addicted person takes more substance but feels less and less high.

The different types of schizophrenia are associated with an imbalance of dopamine (too much) and serotonin (poorly regulated) in certain areas of the brain. Finally, the depressive disorders appear to be associated with altered brain serotonin and norepinephrine systems. Both of these neurochemicals may be lower in depressed people. Please note that abnormalities of these neurochemicals are "associated with" instead of "caused by," because we really don't know whether low levels of neurochemicals in the brain cause depression or whether depression causes low levels of neurochemicals in the brain.

What we do know is certain medications that alter the levels of norepinephrine or serotonin can alleviate the symptoms of depression. Some medicines that affect both of these neurochemical systems appear to perform even better or faster. Other medications that treat depression primarily affect the other neurochemical systems. The most powerful treatment for depression, electroconvulsive therapy (ECT), is certainly not specific to any particular neurotransmitter system. Rather, ECT, by causing a seizure, produces a generalized brain activity that probably releases massive amounts of all of the neurochemicals.

Women are twice as likely to become depressed as men. However, scientists do not know the reason for this difference. Psychological factors also contribute to a person's vulnerability to depression. Thus, persistent deprivation in infancy, physical or sexual abuse, clusters of certain personality traits, and inadequate ways of coping (maladaptive coping mechanisms) all can increase the frequency and severity of depressive disorders, with or without inherited vulnerability.

The effect of maternal-fetal stress on depression is currently an exciting area of research. It seems that maternal stress during pregnancy can increase the chance that the child will be prone to depression as an adult, particularly if there is a genetic vulnerability. It is thought that the mother's circulating stress hormones can influence the development of the fetus' brain during pregnancy. This altered fetal brain development occurs in ways that predispose the child to the risk of depression as an adult. Further research is still necessary to clarify how this happens. Again, this situation shows the complex interaction between genetic vulnerability and environmental stress, in this case, the stress of the mother on the fetus.
Depression is a neuro-chemical problem, either genetic or brought about by stressful event. It does not have much if anything to do with expressing your emotions. Notice this buried in the quote above:

Women are twice as likely to become depressed as men.
If women are allowed to cry in public and not men, then why are women twice as likely to suffer from depression? I thought women were more inclined to open their feelings in public? If anything they should suffer depression less than men. I'm sorry, that express yourself for mental health theory is a fallacy.


I've known 4 people who have suffered with 'true' depression. In all 4 cases they were ordinary people who were faced with, what they felt were, impossible life choices: a man whose wife wanted children and he did not faced with a choice of having children he doesn't want or losing his wife; a man who considers himself (and is) a good father feeling tethered to his disabled daughter facing a life in which he is never free from her or the guilt of, on some level, wanting to be free from her; a man who has to choose between his children and his wife, a woman who has to choose between the life she wants and the life she has, caring for sick parents. In all cases they have been people who have 'coped' but at some point reached that point where life had ground them down completely. My impression is that their brain faced this as a 'computer says no' scenario and simply shut down normal operations. In all cases it was only after acknowledging the true cause of their problem that they started to recover. Depressed people don't cry. Depressed people don't do anything. But often depression starts with self-deception, and in that respect not facing, but rather withholding 'truth' from yourself can lead to depression.
In that quote you say this: "In all cases it was only after acknowledging the true cause of their problem that they started to recover." First, that's the pop Freudian psycho thinking that's out in the general public. Second, I have no idea what your qualifications are to make a psychiatric determination like that. How do you know it wasn't just time that passed that allowed the brain to re-right its neurochemistry? Did you conduct an experiment holding controls and constants and derived data? Of course not. Science, especially biology, is very complex and requires controled experiments. Psychiatry has come a long way in the last fifty years and has been revolutionized from the junk crap that Feud put out a hundred years ago. Psychological function is biology, not philosophy. All that stuff about id, ego, and superego can be flushed down the toilet.


I have some questions:
These are some really good questions. Let me try answering them.


- why is it okay to laugh raucously in public but not cry?
How we display emotions are cultural norms, and really when I asked my question I was playing by poking at various culturaal norms that may be across this international lit net community. I have a friend at work who is from Vietnam, a very giddy, happy fellow, and he told me that Vietnamese people are very open to laugh raucously as you put it. He is very knowledgable about eastern cultures and contrasted Vietnamese with Koreans, who he describes as very unemotional publically. He said that Koreans think Vietnamese are fools in the way they laugh out loud. It has been my experience that the various Vietnamese and Koreans I have met do meet his description. He is quite right for the most part. Western cultures have similar cultural norms. It has been my experience that Greeks and Italians are way more emotionally expressive than northern Europeans. I assume you've heard of the "stiff British upper lip." ;)


- why is public crying often greeted with derision or disgust, and not compassion?
I don't know. Of all the tings mentioned in this thread (which has been very infomative and a good learning experience for me) is that such a loss of control is akin to childishness. And that isn't too flattering. But I think that if the situation is warrented and someone breaks down from a terrible event, people will understand. I don't think people deride or feel disgust unless it were a frequent thing for that person.


- the man who slumps down in the street and cries may have lost himself, the person who passes him by with a sneer - what's their excuse?
Well, we should be understanding of someone who cries. I am not for derision. Each one handles life's events as best as one can. I took an extreme example in that video.


- what are you afraid of?
I'm not afraid. :D It's happened to me a couple of times as I said.


- Is 'image' more important than 'honesty'?
There are times when image is as important. I think of all the posts, Kilt said it best:

There are times and places where a man can cry, but in general in public isnt one of them (except for at sporting events). A man has to be solid & dependable, a shoulder for women to cry on but not a source of crying himself - except when alone
I know that may seem sexist, but there are roles that men need to fill.

[The Comedian]

Any man who cries needs sand kicked in his face. (Kidding!)

I think it's okay for men to cry insofar as they cry less than the women they associate with. I mean, a crying man has got to make an impact. I know if my wife or daughters see me cry, I would want them to think: "Holy ****! Dad's crying. This must be serious." :)

Then again, if you're the type of man who likes watch/read a good romance and turn on the lachrymal spigot, no problem here. I'll just crack open a Bud and go split wood or something. . . .:)

[Virgil]

Any man who cries need sand kicked in his face. (Kidding!)

I think it's okay for men to cry insofar as they cry less than the women they associate with. I mean, a crying man has got to make an impact. I know if my wife or daughters see me cry, I would want them to think: "Holy ****! Dad's crying. This must be serious." :)

Then again, if you're the type of man who likes watch/read a good romance and turn on the lachrymal spigot, no problem here. I'll just crack open a Bud and go split wood or something. . . .:)

:lol::lol: You live up to your name. I think you make a good point about wht your wife and daughters would say.

[TheFifthElement]

In that quote you say this: "In all cases it was only after acknowledging the true cause of their problem that they started to recover." First, that's the pop Freudian psycho thinking that's out in the general public. Second, I have no idea what your qualifications are to make a psychiatric determination like that. How do you know it wasn't just time that passed that allowed the brain to re-right its neurochemistry? Did you conduct an experiment holding controls and constants and derived data? Of course not. Science, especially biology, is very complex and requires controled experiments. Psychiatry has come a long way in the last fifty years and has been revolutionized from the junk crap that Feud put out a hundred years ago. Psychological function is biology, not philosophy. All that stuff about id, ego, and superego can be flushed down the toilet.

:lol: you're funny Virgil. One extract from an internet article doesn't make you an expert on brain chemistry either. You're an engineer aren't you? We're all pop here, yours is pop science, mine is pop pyschology. None of us are experts. At least I know it: are you repressing your inner id? ;)

I could say your aversion to psychology borders on unhealthy ;)

Anyway, I didn't make that determination in any of the above cases. In 3 of the cases they came to that determination themselves on their road to recovery, and my post was merely to share the experience as they shared it with me. In one of the cases that determination was made by a psychologist.

I think bipolarism is a different disorder to depression, is it not? Bipolarism is a systemic illness, whereas depression can be a one-off event.

I don't know who Feud is. I've never read Freud and don't necessarily believe in him. Sartre denied Freud's sub-conscious and I'm inclined to side with Sartre on that front. When we acknowledge our personal responsibility for making choices, and accept that those choices are within our control we are less affected by things being 'done to us', or being controlled by our 'sub-conscious' which is equally out of our control, and therefore less likely to get 'defeated'. Pop psychology? Sure, but if crying is an expression of 'defeat' or 'powerlessness' this may explain why women cry more and, potentially, why they are more prone to suffer from depression. That being said, there is a view that women are not necessarily more prone to depression but more likely to seek help, and the statistics are skewed by that.

I don't disagree that depression is both a disease and a product of brain chemistry. That being said, I also believe that thought affects brain chemistry. You call it psychology but to me it's all biology. Do you think thought is separate from our biological functions? Even in the extract you posted it says:


Please note that abnormalities of these neurochemicals are "associated with" instead of "caused by," because we really don't know whether low levels of neurochemicals in the brain cause depression or whether depression causes low levels of neurochemicals in the brain.
and

Psychological factors also contribute to a person's vulnerability to depression. Thus, persistent deprivation in infancy, physical or sexual abuse, clusters of certain personality traits, and inadequate ways of coping (maladaptive coping mechanisms) all can increase the frequency and severity of depressive disorders, with or without inherited vulnerability.

And if 'thought' or 'psychology' if you prefer is separate to 'biology' then how do you explain the success of cognitive therapy in treating depression?

[Nightshade]

Humm Ive thought more about it and in fact the whoele women can cry in public is just as sexists as men cant cry in public, and my earlier comment needs qualifing in general I dont think people should cry in public bujt there are time and places where anyone crying in public , even howling in grief is acceptable not very comfortable for witnesses but acceptable, such as funerals especially children's funerals. And at things that are meant to make you cry. But people who burst into tears because something is 'just so beautiful" now they just annoy me. Almost as much as people who sob and wail while they are praying just because you are suposed to be moved. But in effect all they do is distract other people who are trying to concentrate on their praying. If you have to cry in sistations like that at least do so silently.

There are plenty of ways to express being sad without mkaing a fuss. Just like the fact it isnt accpetable to fall off your chair and roll around the floor laughing in public ( and since I do do this in private I can say that it does take a measure of self control to not fall about laughing in public. And the only time I have actually dfallen off a chair and laugh in public was wehen my boss decided she was bored and it muight be fun to sneak up on me and discover if I was ticklish :rolleyes: )

But then again I think that I should really be one of the last to talk seeing as I dont cry except tears of rage ( hey its better than either hurting myself or someone else) or occasionally when something has shocked me and Ive not slept in over 24hrs. Only they tend to be more hysterical fits of manic laughter and tears running down my face.

[Virgil]

:lol: you're funny Virgil. One extract from an internet article doesn't make you an expert on brain chemistry either. You're an engineer aren't you? We're all pop here, yours is pop science, mine is pop pyschology. None of us are experts. At least I know it: are you repressing your inner id? ;)

I could say your aversion to psychology borders on unhealthy ;)

:lol: I'm not claiming to be an expert. That web site is a very respectable medical site, and there are a few others as well. If you wish I could provide more medical sites. I've told this story a couple of times on lit net, but perhaps youv've never seen it. My mother suffers from depression and has for a good deal of her life. She had told me stories about it even in her youth and how it would come and go. About 20-25 years ago (I don't remember the exact year) she started going into serious depression and some mild hallucinations (audio hallucinations) and stopped eating. At the time this wasn't something you went to a doctor for. Times have changed thank God. My brother had this Freudian theory of how she had to work these things out in her mind. What utter nonsense. Finally I did take her to our family doctor - she was down to bones - and doctor told me that over the years he had prescribed her midications for this (I had never known) and she usually came out of it. This time what he prescribed didn't work and he immediaately sent her to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist prescribed several drugs (I don't recall what they were since they've changed over the years) but within a week she was nearly normal and within a few weeks was certainly normal. She has been on medications for all these years and currently she takes Celexa (generic name is Citalopram) and except for a few instances where she didn't want the medications, she has been mentally healthy all these years. She has appointments with a psychiatrist every two months, which I take her to and I have gotten into several conversations over the years with the doctors on how this all works. Sure I am not an expert, but given my science background and given my 20 something year histroy with this i've built up a little knowledge.


Anyway, I didn't make that determination in any of the above cases. In 3 of the cases they came to that determination themselves on their road to recovery, and my post was merely to share the experience as they shared it with me. In one of the cases that determination was made by a psychologist.

I think bipolarism is a different disorder to depression, is it not? Bipolarism is a systemic illness, whereas depression can be a one-off event.

I don't know who Feud is. I've never read Freud and don't necessarily believe in him. Sartre denied Freud's sub-conscious and I'm inclined to side with Sartre on that front. When we acknowledge our personal responsibility for making choices, and accept that those choices are within our control we are less affected by things being 'done to us', or being controlled by our 'sub-conscious' which is equally out of our control, and therefore less likely to get 'defeated'. Pop psychology? Sure, but if crying is an expression of 'defeat' or 'powerlessness' this may explain why women cry more and, potentially, why they are more prone to suffer from depression. That being said, there is a view that women are not necessarily more prone to depression but more likely to seek help, and the statistics are skewed by that.

I don't disagree that depression is both a disease and a product of brain chemistry. That being said, I also believe that thought affects brain chemistry. You call it psychology but to me it's all biology. Do you think thought is separate from our biological functions? Even in the extract you posted it says:


and


And if 'thought' or 'psychology' if you prefer is separate to 'biology' then how do you explain the success of cognitive therapy in treating depression?
Well, that's good you don't buy into that Freudian stuff. Perhaps I associated your thoughts with his. In my opinion Freud did more damage to the science of mental illness than good, and frankly I believe he was a charlatan. As to cognitive therapy, I don't know. I'm no expert. I searched for information on it and it seems to help with anxiety problems. Like I said I'm no expert so I'll reserve judgement. All I can tell you is that what my mother suffered from was not going to change from talking it out.

[TheFifthElement]

Virge, I wasn't aware of your mother's situation. That must have been hard on you growing up. It is good that she now has things under control. From the sounds of things your Mum's case must be systemic, which is not the case for all people. I still think it's a shame that drugs are the only answer, in fact I don't think they are the only answer, but one must work with what seems to work, I guess. I think they are the easy answer. It is easier to give someone a pill to pop once or twice a day than to help them to think differently. I think if your Mum was just being diagnosed now then the likelihood is she would be given drugs and some sort of psychological therapy, such as CBT, working in compliment with each other. Well, she would in UK if she had a decent GP, though I can't speak for US. CBT is very effective in treating depression, not just anxiety, and can be more effective than anti-depressants, though obviously it isn't going to work for everyone. See here: http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfoforall/treatments/cbt.aspx

My brother had this Freudian theory of how she had to work these things out in her mind. What utter nonsense.

Well, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss, though I can understand why you might think that in the circumstances. I don't think that thinking about it alone is the answer. I think that when people get into a depressive state they need something to kick them out of it, and the drugs do that. But to stay out of it you might need something in addition to the drugs. At a root level the brain is just a bio-chemical computer. The computer has a faulty hard-drive and for some reason whenever the computer encounters an outside action the electronic pathways automatically send signals to the faulty hard drive and you get an 'error'. To fix the computer you need to fix the faulty hard-drive but if it's only possible to temporarily fix the hard-drive then to get a complete fix you need to also re-programme the computer to send the signals to a different hard-drive which works better. That way you don't have to keep tinkering with the faulty hard-drive, you can forget it because you're not using it anymore. Drugs fix the hard-drive, but thought is our tool for re-programming. It makes sense to me to do both, particularly if by doing both you might eventually be able to ditch the drugs.

Anyway, I agree on one point: crying or not crying has no impact on depression. People who cry are neither more nor less likely to become depressed but expressing your emotions, or rather acknowledging and dealing with them can have an impact in preventing depression, when depression is caused by a particular stress and not a systemic underlying problem. Phew, that's a mouthful :D

[Virgil]

Virge, I wasn't aware of your mother's situation. That must have been hard on you growing up. It is good that she now has things under control. From the sounds of things your Mum's case must be systemic, which is not the case for all people.
Actually I was already grown up. If it was as long ago as 25 years I would have been 22. I never knew of her personal history until I was an adult.


I still think it's a shame that drugs are the only answer, in fact I don't think they are the only answer, but one must work with what seems to work, I guess.
It is ashame. Only because of the possible side effects. But morally I see nothing wrong with prescription drugs to fix an ailment. Do we rush in with drugs too fast? Possibly but you know life has been extended and made healthier in the past 100 years. When in discussions like this I always think of poor Jane Austen and Emily Dickenson and the Brontes. My goodness they all died at an early age (Emily was the oldest of the ladies reaching 56) and all died of diseases we would have probably cured today.



I think they are the easy answer. It is easier to give someone a pill to pop once or twice a day than to help them to think differently. I think if your Mum was just being diagnosed now then the likelihood is she would be given drugs and some sort of psychological therapy, such as CBT, working in compliment with each other. Well, she would in UK if she had a decent GP, though I can't speak for US. CBT is very effective in treating depression, not just anxiety, and can be more effective than anti-depressants, though obviously it isn't going to work for everyone. See here: http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfoforall/treatments/cbt.aspx
Interesting. Thanks. Well, perhaps this is a break through.


Well, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss, though I can understand why you might think that in the circumstances. I don't think that thinking about it alone is the answer. I think that when people get into a depressive state they need something to kick them out of it, and the drugs do that. But to stay out of it you might need something in addition to the drugs. At a root level the brain is just a bio-chemical computer. The computer has a faulty hard-drive and for some reason whenever the computer encounters an outside action the electronic pathways automatically send signals to the faulty hard drive and you get an 'error'. To fix the computer you need to fix the faulty hard-drive but if it's only possible to temporarily fix the hard-drive then to get a complete fix you need to also re-programme the computer to send the signals to a different hard-drive which works better. That way you don't have to keep tinkering with the faulty hard-drive, you can forget it because you're not using it anymore. Drugs fix the hard-drive, but thought is our tool for re-programming. It makes sense to me to do both, particularly if by doing both you might eventually be able to ditch the drugs.
Well, at her age now (she's 75) and with the way the celexa has been working, I don't think it makes sense for her to change. I see the logic in behavioral therapy now. It's not this superficial Freudian "you have to open up and confront the issue and it will go away" psychobabble. But I would have to think that behavior adjustment is very hard to accomplish. Look at people trying to stop smoking or adjust their diets.


Anyway, I agree on one point: crying or not crying has no impact on depression. People who cry are neither more nor less likely to become depressed but expressing your emotions, or rather acknowledging and dealing with them can have an impact in preventing depression, when depression is caused by a particular stress and not a systemic underlying problem. Phew, that's a mouthful :D
Great! Public expression of emotions is a cultural phenomena. I don't think it has anything to do with one's mental health state.