Which literature...?

[Ivory_Flower]

Which literature in the world do you prefer? (If there is one...)

[Dark Muse]

Well I have to say I really enjoy the Brittish, but then I have also just had the most exposure to them. Though I am working on expanding my horizons as it were I do not yet know enough about some of the others yet to really make a fair vote.

[manolia]

I can't pick just one country. If the poll was multiple choice i could vote, but not as it is :)

[Ivory_Flower]

I can't pick just one country. If the poll was multiple choice i could vote, but not as it is :)

And what would you have chosen if there had been a multiple choice? :)

[subterranean]

I voted for English since that's the foreign language I mastered compare to others. If I could understand say, Spanish or Italian, I'd love to read Borges' or Eco's works in their original languages.

[manolia]

And what would you have chosen if there had been a multiple choice? :)

Hmmm certainly british, north and south american, greek and french.

[JBI]

Hmm:

Dolce e chiara è la notte e senza vento,
E queta sovra i tetti e in mezzo agli orti
Posa la luna, e di lontan rivela
Serena ogni montagna. O donna mia,
5Già tace ogni sentiero, e pei balconi
Rara traluce la notturna lampa:
Tu dormi, che t'accolse agevol sonno
Nelle tue chete stanze; e non ti morde
Cura nessuna; e già non sai né pensi
10Quanta piaga m'apristi in mezzo al petto.


Still, such voting is absolutely ridiculous.

There are good works in almost every language. I personally study Italian and French, as well as English, but I would have been happy with almost any language (I wanted to take Chinese, but the department wouldn't let me get a minor in it). Generally, I read mostly books written in English, but only because I'm a Canadian specialist, and most texts are written here in English, or French.

[thomas212]

You could add to this a period,why just a location in space and not time.
Each country had his glorious literary moments.
I put quality over location,and varition his best.I love reading an Italian after a French,and an American after a German,....

[Brasil]

Earliest literature:
Assyro-Babylonian, Egyptian.

Classic literature:
Greek, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese.

Medieval and Early Modern literature:
European (specially from Italy, France, England, Portugal, Spain), Arabic, Persian.

Modern literature:
Hispanic America, Brazil, Portugal, Russia, Germany, United States, United Kingdom.

[JBI]

A bit of all? More like a bit of all of the Occident. Chinese is as much a contemporary language as English is.

[Brasil]

For start, chinese is not a language! Mandarin, Cantonese and Wu are languages (dialects, precisely). Chinese is a complex family of sino-tibetan languages!

When I said "I apreciate a bit of all" and including Chinese, I've metioned to the classical period of chinese "Han" literature, you must know.
Classical poetry, classical philosophy, chinese myths...

And I forgot to metion Medieval Japan:
Hai Kai, shōmyō, legends...





All of Occident? What about Sanskrit, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hebrew, Arabic, Persian...?
They don't sound like occident to me. Even the Greeks don't sound like occident. The Greeks influenced the occident, but first they were influenced by the oriental culture. And more: Most of all greek philosophers came from the Asia Minor (Turkey, nowadays).

Siddhartha Gautama - the original Buddha was born in Lumbini (in Nepal).

Confucius - Qufu (China).

Laozi (Lao Tze) - somewhere in China.

Sun Tzu - was born in Qi (China).

Thales - of Phoenician (Lebanese) descent, was born in Mileto, in Asia Minor (now Turkey).

Anaximenes - Mileto (now Turkey).

Anaximandro - Mileto (now Turkey).

Xenofanes - born in the city of rosin in Jónia (now the west coast of Turkey).

Heraclitus - was born in Ephesus, in Jônia (now Turkey).

Anaxágoras- Born in Clazômenas, in Jônia (now Turkey).

Parmênides - was born in Velia, (Italy).

Zena - selection today Velia, (Italy).

Empedocle - Agrigento (now a commune of Sicily, southern Italy).

Gorgos - native of Lentini (current Sicily, southern Italy).

Pythagoras - Samos Island (now Greece).

Demócrito - Abdera (Greece).

Protagoras - Abdera (Greece).

Socrates – Atenas (Greece).

Plato – Athenas (Greece).

Aristotle – Estagira (Macedonia).

[JBI]

Chinese is a language, Wu, Mandarin and Cantonese are dialects, like you said. But either way, that is quibbling better suited for Chinese culture and linguistic specialists. I was just pointing out that the written form of Chinese is far from a dead language.

Either way though, the irony is you put Chinese with classical languages when the Tang and Song Dynasties correspond to dates in the medieval period, but strangely enough, China was advanced at a level more equivalent to the Renaissance at this point - making things very strange indeed.

Either way, your modern languages that you read a little bit of everything from seem to be occident-focused. I was just pointing out that you shouldn't have named languages if you were going to claim you read "a little bit of everything." This thread in general is silly - as people who only read one genre, one language, and or books from one country aren't really reading.


It's actually quite strange how people view country - they throw around names like Issa or Laozi to seem rounded, but in truth, cultures are so much more than that.

These boards seem discussions on English works (mostly American and pre 20th century British) and Dostoevsky, with the odd thread on a varying subject thrown in for good measure, and the odd Chinese name thrown around to try and display a varying range. Seriously though, when it comes down to it, people never seem to ask why that Chinese figure is said figure, or what it represents, or what context is around it, what culture has been born from it, or even what the texts mean.

[Brasil]

I don't understand you. I think this forum is about LITERATURE, not english literature, american literature, but general literature!

By now, I'm reading the Art of War, for the second time. I think this book is amazing, just for the ideas. But the style is significant too: it is a mix of tutorial and poetry sometimes!

I apreciate ancient chinese poetry too, which is called classic style (not classic meaning the western period of art).

All culture called Taoism (and other Hundred Schools of Thought in many places in China and outside) born from the texts by Laozi.

Confucious was another well-known philosopher, everybody in the world heard his name once at least. Imagine if China was trying to spread its culture, instead of being closed!

[wessexgirl]

Either way, your modern languages that you read a little bit of everything from seem to be occident-focused. I was just pointing out that you shouldn't have named languages if you were going to claim you read "a little bit of everything." This thread in general is silly - as people who only read one genre, one language, and or books from one country aren't really reading.




I think you're being very picky and a touch patronising here JBI. I think Brasil obviously reads very widely, from many different cultures. I only read in English, as I am not fluent in other languages. I read literature translated from other countries, but does that mean I'm not "really reading?" What do you suppose the people who come to this forum are doing then? Is it not a place where people who love literature and reading come to exchange thoughts about books? I understand that you are a critic. Your day-to-day life involves reading and analysing. I am a Librarian. My work is obviously book and reading related. We are lucky in that we have careers to do with our obvious love of books. Not everyone on here works with books, and so may not have the resources and the time to spend garnering books from everywhere, so the fact that they read so much and so widely is only to be applauded, not, if I may so, sneered at. I hope I do not judge others so harshly, particularly on a site which is meant for lovers of literature, by telling them that they "are not really reading".

[Ivory_Flower]

Still, such voting is absolutely ridiculous.

There are good works in almost every language.

I know, you're right, but the poll wanted to be just INDICATIVE, don't take it too seriously! It is obvious that somebody who loves literature can love elements, periods and kinds from different cultures...it was just to have a general idea. Moreover, in the first post I specified IF THERE IS ONE...

[WICKES]

The literature of England (or, more generally of the British isles- including Ireland) from Chaucer (c.1380s) up to the present gets my vote.

That would be followed by the literature of ancient Greece, then France (from the middle ages on) then Russia.

I am not a fan of the literature of the USA or South America tbh.

[crystalmoonshin]

I was first introduced to English literature when I was in elementary and I must say that it's got a large influence on me. I love reading poems by Wordsworth and Lord Byron. And William Blake is intriguing!

Next, came Chinese literature. One of the best classics I've read is the "Dream of the Red Chambers" (a.k.a. Hongloumeng) a which describes the rise and fall of a family under the Qing Dynasty. (Though it's not just that. It's got a bit of everything: romance, religion, politics, society, literature and education.) I'm reading "Journey to the West" in its original Chinese version this coming summer vacation.

Now, I must say that I'm kinda hooked to Spanish poetry. I still am having a hard time making sense out of Luis de Gongora's "Soledades" but I really admire the way he wrote those verses full of mythological stuffs.

When talking of French lit, the first thing that comes to mind is Alexandre Dumas. "The Man in the Iron Mask" is a favorite.

Concerning Japanese literature, I must say that I was introduced to it following my love for anime. Yukio Mishima and Natsume Soseki are my favorite Jap authors.

Oh, I forgot to include Italian literature! My fave writer is still Umberto Eco!!! I also love Boccaccio's "Decameron".

[WICKES]

I was first introduced to English literature when I was in elementary and I must say that it's got a large influence on me. I love reading poems by Wordsworth and Lord Byron. And William Blake is intriguing!..

The interesting thing about England (and I guess the reason it has produced arguably the world's greatest literature) is that it has been a united/ homogenous culture with one language since at least Chaucer in the 14th century. There was a strong sense of England and Englishness certainly as early as the 1550s and perhaps earlier, wheras someone living in, say, Venice at that time didn't identify with Italy but with Venice. Eighty percent of people in France in 1880 didn't speak French as their first language- they spoke various dialects. Italy wasn't united until the 19th century and neither was Germany.

That is very simplistic and of course it is not a simple as that, but I think there is something to it.

[crystalmoonshin]

Oh yeah I learned that Germany used to have varied dialects and it wasn't until Luther began the Protestant movement that the German dialects were unified into the present German language because of the hardships he encountered in translating the Bible into German. :)

[Brasil]

... I consider songs (sung music, with lyrics) as a kind of poetry too. Popular songs are a very rich example of oral literature, I think. So I listed the traditional styles bellow and I would apreciate your help to make this list more completed.



The best of traditional music of the world


United States
Jazz (styles: Bebop, Big band, Free jazz, Swing…)
Blues (places: New Orleans, Memphis, Chicago…)
Gospel (places: south and Harlem)
Country (places: especially in Nashville)
Soul
Rap


Mexico
Ranchera
Mariachi


Cuba and Carib
Mambo
Cha Cha Cha
Salsa
Bolero
Rumba


Jamaica
Reggae


French Antilles
Zouk


Trinidad & Tobago
Calipso


Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and Venezuela
Merengue


Colombia
Cumbia
Porro
Vallenato


Peru and Bolivia
Carnavalito (one of the styles of Andean music)



Paraguay
Guarania


Brazil
Choro/Chorinho
Samba (styles: samba-enredo, samba-canção, samba-de-roda, partido-alto...)
Bossa Nova (places: Rio de Janeiro)
Forró (styles: xote, baião, xaxado; places: Northeast)
Maxixe
MPB
Repentismo (Northeast)
Frevo (places: Olinda-PE)
Axé (places: Salvador-BA)
Lambada (places: Pará)
Sertanejo/caipira (in: São Paulo, Minas Gerais, Goiás, Mato Grosso do Sul)
Música nativista (in: Rio Grande do Sul)


Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil
Milonga


Argentina
Tango


Angola
Kizomba
Kuduru


Portugal
Fado


Spain
Flamenco (in many styles)
Pasodoble


Ireland
Celtic music


Italy
Tarantella
Canzone napoletana


Switzerland, Austria, Hungary and Germany
Yodeling
Ländler


Czech Republic, Slovakia and Germany
Polca


Russia
Balalaica


Romania and Bulgaria
Lautari (gipsy music)


Greece
Rebetiko


Middle East, North Africa and Turkey
Maqam (traditional)
Mawwal (vocal style)
Khaliji/ Khalee ji
Beledi/ baladi (belly dance)
Jeel (modern fusion)


Morocco and Algeria
Chaabi
Raï


Iran
Sufi


India
Hindusthani (northern classical music)
Carnatic (southern classical music)
Qawwali
Bhajan (devotion chant)
Lavani (traditional)
Ghazal (poetry)


China
Yayue (classical music)


Japan
shōmyō (budist chant)
Gagaku (orchestral music)
Biwa (sad chant)
Min'yō (popular)


Tibet
Yang (one of the styles of chant)


Hawai
Hula


United States, England, Ireland, Australia and Canada
Rock and Roll (other styles: progressive rock, punk rock, heavy metal...)


Europe
Troubadors


Italy, Austria, Poland, France and Russia
Opera
Synphony
Concert
Sacred
Oratory
Cantata
Song
Suite
Madrigal
Ballet
(periods/styles: Renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic)


Obs: There are some instrumental styles in the list too, but I could not leave it behind!

[Ivory_Flower]

... I consider songs (sung music, with lyrics) as a kind of poetry too. Popular songs are a very rich example of oral literature, I think. So I listed the traditional styles bellow and I would apreciate your help to make this list more completed.

Nice! :D

I would add:

Italy: Pizzica (a traditional music of the south, similar to tarantella but faster)
Russia: Kalinka (balalaika is just the instrument I think...)
Italy, Austria, Poland, France and Russia: Valzer
Ireland: Reel, Gig

[bazarov]

Italy: Pizzica (a traditional music of the south, similar to tarantella but faster)
Russia: Kalinka (balalaika is just the instrument I think...)


Correct.

Interesting number of votes...I will maybe comment it; later.

[Brasil]

QUOTE:
Originally Posted by WICKES:
"The interesting thing about England (and I guess the reason it has produced arguably the world's greatest literature) is that it has been a united/ homogenous culture with one language.... "




Saying that is the same of saying Zidane was bigger football player than Zico.

Course, the influence of Zidane is felt in many places of the world. Zico as a player is almost unknown outside Brazil. But think about the time that Zico was a player At the time of Zico, the media influence was not as today. Because of that, Zidane is more popular in the world.
Zico = 865 goals
Zidane = 187 goals


The same think about literature. The influence of the british literature is one of the greatest, but no one should say the british literature is the greatest.

Brazilian literature is almost unknown outside Brazil! That does not means Brazilian literature is not as good as the others. The reason is the media, the marketing and the culture that we have today. Because of the power of USA, the english language and culture is more known that the others.

Who here really tried to undestand and to know more about Portuguese literature and Brazilian literature?


And what about the Greek, the French, the German and the Russian literatures? For me, they are as good as English lit, sometimes better.

In my oppinion, the Greek literature has more influence in the west world than anyone! But influence does't mean being better. However, for me the Greeks were the greatest.
But I think Portuguese literature and Brazilian literature is each one as good as the French or the Russian. But we're not as famous as they.

Brazil does not have a "homogenous culture" like England. That's because of our history. Here we have all cultures (native indians, portuguese, spanish, africans, italian, german, french, swiss, japanese, arabic...) that is our greatest quality!

[WICKES]

QUOTE:
Brazilian literature is almost unknown outside Brazil! That does not means Brazilian literature is not as good as the others. The reason is the media, the marketing and the culture that we have today. Because of the power of USA, the english language and culture is more known that the others..

Well, with respect, I think you would struggle to find any professor of literature or great writer/ scholar (of a neutral country) who would say that the literature of Brazil is equal to the literature of the British Isles. It just isn't. It might not be politically correct to say so but the whole of the literature of South America combined just doesn't come close to the literature of England alone, without adding Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. Both north and south America united have no one who can compare with Shakespeare. If you list the great writers of South America alongside the great writers of England: Chaucer, Shakespeare, Jonson, Marlowe, John Donne, Pope, Wordsworth, Shelley, Byron, Keats, Eliot, Dickens...etc etc there is simply no contest. It has nothing to do with the language. Dante is written in Italian, which is only spoken in Italy, but he is still regarded as a universal genius, equal to Shakespeare and Tolstoy. If Brazil had produced a writer of the standard and universal reach of Shakespeare or Chaucer or Dickens he would certainly be well known in London, Paris and Berlin.

[JBI]

Well, with respect, I think you would struggle to find any professor of literature or great writer/ scholar (of a neutral country) who would say that the literature of Brazil is equal to the literature of the British Isles. It just isn't. It might not be politically correct to say so but the whole of the literature of South America combined just doesn't come close to the literature of England alone, without adding Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. Both north and south America united have no one who can compare with Shakespeare. If you list the great writers of South America alongside the great writers of England: Chaucer, Shakespeare, Jonson, Marlowe, John Donne, Pope, Wordsworth, Shelley, Byron, Keats, Eliot, Dickens...etc etc there is simply no contest. It has nothing to do with the language. Dante is written in Italian, which is only spoken in Italy, but he is still regarded as a universal genius, equal to Shakespeare and Tolstoy. If Brazil had produced a writer of the standard and universal reach of Shakespeare or Chaucer or Dickens he would certainly be well known in London, Paris and Berlin.

That's a tough claim to make, and I personally wouldn't make it - you're treading into dangerous territory.

Either way, I would argue, from Brazil's foundation in comparison with British literature, from 1822 on, Brazil probably has England beat, and probably the whole country as well.

Certainly England has gone down since the First World War. Larkin made a career of pointing out that fact, as I'm sure you know - the whole museum of a culture that is contemporary England cannot even compare to the high artistic output coming from Brazil, especially since the population of Brazil is 3x the size, and the culture is a lot newer.

Either way, such comparisons are silly - I just wanted to point out that waving the Shakespeare flag only goes so far.

[Brasil]

If Shakespeare were Brazilian, you would say that we don't have a writer as good as the England has. If Shakespeare were Brazilian you would not hear his name where you are.


Based on your arguments, I could say that England does not have a typical popular music as Brazil has samba, bossa nova, axé, forró...

Based on your arguments, I could say that England does not have a typical Culinary as Brazil has feijoada, churrasco, moqueca...


Try to undestand, just because something is not famous outside its natural place, does not mean that thing is great.

Furthermore, Shakespeare was a plagiary of the italian theatre and the Greek-Latin myths. Research it.
On the other hand, Machado de Assis was totaly original.

Shakespeare has plays and sonnets. But Camões has an great Epic (decasyllabic) and several sonnets.

But I agree with JBI "such comparisons are silly". Great!!!

Cause each one has your personal taste, and literature as art, depends of the personal taste.

[WICKES]

If Shakespeare were Brazilian, you would say that we don't have a writer as good as the England has. If Shakespeare were Brazilian you would not hear his name where you are..

That simply isn't true. I don't understand Italian, but I am well aware of Dante and of his reputation as one of the greatest writers of all time. I don't read Russian and have never been to Russia but I am well aware of Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky and accept that England doesn't really have a novelsit to quite compare with them.

[WICKES]

Either way, I would argue, from Brazil's foundation in comparison with British literature, from 1822 on, Brazil probably has England beat, and probably the whole country as well..

Really? I don't much like these sorts of debates, they are a bit stupid I agree, but do you really think Brazil has produced greater writers since 1822 than Charles Dickens, George Eliot, Tennyson, Browning, John Ruskin (who was a massive influence on the greatest writer of the 20th century- Proust) D H Lawrence, Joseph Conrad, E M Forster, H G Wells Virginia Woolf, Aldous Huxley, Evelyn Waugh, P G Wodehouse, Conan Doyle, George Orwell, Robert Graves, Sassoon, Wilfred Owen, W. H Auden, Larkin, Oscar Wilde, C S Lewis (both born in Ireland but spent most of their lives and did most of their writing in England), Graham Greene, Anthony Burgess, T. S Eliot (born in USA I admit, but became British) etc etc? If we include Ireland and make it 'the British Isles' then James Joyce? Yeats? Beckett? Really!!!??

Is there a writer in Brazil at the moment better than Martin Amis, Ian McEwan, Doris Lessing etc?

You say the British play the Shakespeare card but what of Chaucer, Milton, Blake, Byron, Shelley, Keats, Fielding, Swift, Marlowe, Donne, Jonson and so on

[Brasil]

Brazil was discoverd on 1500 by the Portugueses and we have literature since the begining of the colonization. And before of it, there was the native indians myths - it is oral literature. Today the indians myths are writing.

But each country and culture has something of singular:
England - Chaucer, Shakespeare, Miton...
Russia - Dostoievsky, Tolstoy, Gogol...
Brazil - Machado de Assis, Jorge Amado, Carlos Drummond...
Portugal - Camões, Fernando Pessoa, Saramago...
Italy- Dante, Petrarch, Boccaccio...

France, Greece, China, Japan, Iraq, Iran...

[WICKES]

Brazil was discoverd on 1500 by the Portugueses and we have literature since the begining of the colonization. And before of it, there was the native indians myths - it is oral literature. Today the indians myths are writing.

But each country and culture has something of singular:
England - Chancer, Shakespeare, Miton...
Russia - Dostoievsky, Tolstoy...
Brazil - Machado de Assis, Jorge Amado, Carlos Drummond...
Portugal - Camões, Fernando Pessoa, Saramago...
Italy- Dante, Petrarch, Boccaccio...

France, Greece, China, Japan, Iraq, Iran...

I don't doubt it. My favourite writer (apart from Evelyn Waugh) isn't even British- it's Hrermann Hesse. I do love mythology too, which is something England doesn't really have (well, I suppose the Arthurian legends, but not like the south American Indians).

[JBI]

De Assis seems a better novelist than all those named, but of course, English is the imperialist language, and more people are privileged to read works of that language in the original, whereas Portuguese, though a large language, is not as translated as one would like, which leads to the question of whether or not one who doesn't speak Portuguese can even judge such a question.

Personally, I don't think much of MacEwan or Amis, so I'll ignore them, but Lessing is a notable writer (well used to be, she hasn't really produced much noteworthy stuff in a while), but still I'm sure Brazil can come up with a novelist to equal her skill.

[Brasil]

Wickes,

The South America literature is almost unknown in Europe just because europeans don't want to know.

Search for the Anthology of short stories by Machado de Assis
Publisher: Bloomsburry.
Translation: Professor John Gledson, from the University of Liverpool.


You don't need to read in portuguese, the translation is very good.

I hope you enjoy it.

Obs: His short stories are really great, but the main focus of Machado de Assis were the novels: Dom Casmurro, Memórias Póstumas, Quincas Borba...

By the way, I love the Anglo-French (or Franco-English, as you wish) Arthurian legends!

[JBI]

Still Brazil, you know better than I that Brazilian poetry is far better in the original, as is almost all poetry. The barrier is almost impossible to get over - translations of poetry rarely work. It's rather depressing when one thinks of it. Even if poetry does get translated, it usually ends up put forward by an academic press, and enjoys very limited sales and exposure, before disappearing.

[WICKES]

Wickes,

The South America literature is almost unknown in Europe just because europeans don't want to know.


That isn't true. Most literature departments in British Univerisities teach South American literature. They did at mine.

[Brasil]

When it is poetry, you lose something. But still have actratives.

The same about music. You can find a italian opera great without understand the words.

In poetry you lose the rhymes, the sound and rhythm. But not always the meaning and the beauty is lost.


However, the novels, plays and short stories can be read in any language without losing much.

All over the world the children read and undestand Harry Potter, but not in English, it is always a translated version. It is a current example of a world success of sales among the teens.

The same way, I don't see any problem of reading a translated novel.

In Brazil, you can buy the The Art of War ,by Sun Tzu, in the subways.

I belive in Europe everyone can find Chinese books, Brazilian books, Mexican books translated as easy as I find in Brazil. But they does not have much interest of knowing something different, something new.

The only thing they know about Brazil is Paulo Coelho. Well, it is a beginning.

[JBI]

That isn't true. Most literature departments in British Univerisities teach South American literature. They did at mine.

To some extent - with us, you get South American literature if you specialize in South American studies - but even then, unless you specialize in that, meaning you essentially only take Latin American courses, you will only get a couple literature ones, and focus mostly on politics, rather than culture.

Still though, you could say that about almost every language. I got lucky in the sense that the University of Toronto has the largest Italian studies department outside of Italy (probably because of the large Italian population of Toronto, and Canada), but even so, the options in terms of literature courses are somewhat limited. French has more options, but you wouldn't be able, for instance, to take a course just on contemporary French Poetry (which upsets me, since that's really what I'm interested in).

In general, education in world literature, for the most part, needs to come outside of ones coursework, unless one is specializing in languages. But even then, it becomes difficult when one ends up studying the actual language in university, rather than the culture and literature.

There just isn't enough time to learn everything, so we simply pick and choose. I think Brazil is trying to say that Brazilian literature, and South American in general, is sort of pushed aside in favor of European literature, notably English, French, and German, and to an extent, Renaissance Italian (though I am yet to see much mention of Italian literature outside of that time period by people who don't speak Italian.).

Which brings us to the main point - which books are translated, and which aren't. Is it fair to say that Latin America has the same opportunity for translations as does, for instance, France? What about the prevalence of English translations and literature within international bookstores? Or what about the advertisement and review of Latin American books and Latin American translations in English periodicals? Shelf space is a major colonial problem, and the fact that people voted on this poll upsets me. One shouldn't vote for which is the best - if one can answer the question with that much certainty, then they clearly aren't reading enough.

If the act of reading for someone is about evaluation, than they probably shouldn't be reading. Evaluation undoubtedly comes into account when deciding what to read, but shouldn't ever be a main preoccupation of reading.

I think that's the fault of the mediocre critics, who write for the newspapers and cheap periodicals. They, like movie critics, treat literature as something that can receive a star rating out of five, and that is the most ridiculous thing.

Essentially what happens as a result, is publishers put forward a list of books to be reviewed, and give some hint as to what they want the review to look like, and that happens - so you end up with each paper with a review of Harry Potter, praising the brilliant ending of the 7th book, yet you don't get some ex-centric writer, or some multicultural writer having any shelf space. You get book stores with countless shelves of paperbacks, but without any international books, unless the person got certified by Oprah, or won a Nobel Prize.

Strangely enough, or perhaps not so strangely, if you notice, many of the major publishers happen to be owned by the same people who own a) the news papers, b) the periodicals, and c) the television. These synergies are bound to limit the exposure of some domestic press in a foreign country.

Take for instance this article from yesterday's Toronto Globe and Mail's book section:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090213.wbkread14/BNStory/globebooks/home

This is a country just about the United States, sharing the same language, and being exposed to generally the same media, with the exception of a couple Canadian own media outlets, notably the CBC, and some French Canadian outlets that aren't subject to the same language as the U.S..

[Brasil]

That isn't true. Most literature departments in British Univerisities teach South American literature. They did at mine.


Just imagine if here in Brazil we were presented to the English literature, French literature, Russian literature, Spanish literature, Italian literature, Turkish literature... but instead of study the singular English, French, Russian, Spanish, Italian, Turkish... respectives literatures, we studied the "European literature" as if it was a promotional package: "pay one, take two".

You can't undestand the literature of different places and cultures studing it as if it was the same thing. Does not exist a South American standard, a South American music, a South American literature... Each country and each region has a singular culture.

The same which applies in Europe, you must applies in other places.



About the literature in portuguese language:

- The North American critic Harold Bloom in his book, Genius: A Mosaic of One Hundred Exemplary Creative Minds José Saramago (Portuguese writer, Nobel laureate, author of Blindness) is considered "the most gifted novelist alive in our times".

- The American critic Harold Bloom considers Machado de Assis (Brazilian novelist, founder of the Brazilian Academy of Letters) one of the 100 biggest geniuses of literature of all time (up to the point of considering it the best black writer of western literature).

But for me, does not have that skin color thing. Harold Bloom is a little ethnocentric. Machado is the best novelist of XIX century.
And in my personal oppinion, Luis de Camões is the greatest poet of all time!

But here in Brazil we don't have great philosophers as in Europe and Asia. That is our weakest point.
- England: David Hume, John Locke, Thomas Morus...
- France: Descartes, Rousseau, Montesquieu, Sartre...
- Germany: Karl Marx, Nietzsche, Hegel, Kant...

Italy, Greece, India, China, Japan....

[thomas212]

I think some might be interested in a forum dedicated to world literature here-->http://www.worldliteratureforum.com/

and to be more specific Brazilian lit http://www.worldliteratureforum.com/forum/general-discussion/125-brazilian-literature.html

[JCamilo]

JBI is right, we are (Brazil) too Young to be compared to the importance of English Literature, but that is silly, not adding the chronological aspect to the aesthetic judgment, which should not be, but also geographical. And South America produced Borges, hardly someone not universal.
Yet, we had Machado de Assis, Guimarães Rosa, Gonçalves Dias, Lima Barreto, Monteiro Lobato, Drummond, all of them comparable to likes of Flaubert, Joyce, Byron, Zola, Hans Christian Andersen or Rilke. Those guys could share a cab…
Btw, Portuguese is a extremely difficulty language, poets who mastered it deserves some credits. No wonder, Pessoa (not Brazilian) is such great poet…
I suggest Ariano Suassuna, he is one of the best writers alive today...

[Brasil]

This votation here is cofuse.

What is English literature?
It means the literature from England? Or the literature from USA, Australia, England and other places where English is spoken?

What is North American literature?
It means the literature from USA? Or the literature from Canada, USA and Mexico?

I think I understood the intention, but many people maybe not.

The research (question and opitions) should be more well elaboreted.


By the way, Ariano Suassuna is really great!

[five-trey]

English literature should be split into American and British literature because its too vast otherwise. British literature has a very distinct voice and many will tell you American literature has its own distinguishing traits.

[WICKES]

Yet, we had Machado de Assis, Guimarães Rosa, Gonçalves Dias, Lima Barreto, Monteiro Lobato, Drummond, all of them comparable to likes of Flaubert, Joyce, Byron, Zola, Hans Christian Andersen or Rilke. Those guys could share a cab…
Btw, Portuguese is a extremely difficulty language, poets who mastered it deserves some credits. No wonder, Pessoa (not Brazilian) is such great poet…
I suggest Ariano Suassuna, he is one of the best writers alive today...


You seem to be saying that the only reason these Brazilian writers are hardly known in London, Paris and New York is the langauge barrier. But Russian is a much harder language for an Englishman or Frenchman to learn than Portuguese, yet all educated Londoners and Parisians know of Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky and Chekov. If Brazil had produced lots of writers who were the equal of Dickens, George Eliot, James Joyce, Flaubert, Proust, Thomas Mann, Virginia Woolf, D H Lawrence, T.S Eliot, Ibsen, Kafka etc they would be well known- as Borges and Marquez are. Portuguese is easier for an English speaker to learn than Russian or ancient Greek.

[thomas212]

...but in the Thousands of years to follow,Brazil might producte a multitude of authors better the the british will.But does it really matter?
Brazil as created some of the most beautiful music this last century with Bossa Nova,carlos Jobin,Vinicius de Morales,Joa Gilberto.....
This thread started as a subjective question about preference in literature and turned into wich country produced the best authors.
Whenever national pride is stimulates,it always calls for arguments with a distinctive nauseating stench.
Surely it is obvouis that old Europe can boast of the best cultural achivements,but old it is,and the youth of certain nation is refreshing in the cultural landscape.

[JCamilo]

You seem to be saying that the only reason these Brazilian writers are hardly known in London, Paris and New York is the langauge barrier. But Russian is a much harder language for an Englishman or Frenchman to learn than Portuguese, yet all educated Londoners and Parisians know of Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky and Chekov. If Brazil had produced lots of writers who were the equal of Dickens, George Eliot, James Joyce, Flaubert, Proust, Thomas Mann, Virginia Woolf, D H Lawrence, T.S Eliot, Ibsen, Kafka etc they would be well known- as Borges and Marquez are. Portuguese is easier for an English speaker to learn than Russian or ancient Greek.

I beg to pardon, but nowhere in my previous post I suggest that writing in portuguese is the cause of anything related to fame.

But now I will. Language is a weapon of domination, and since portuguese was never use by any empire in the world, unlike french, german or english, it is very silly to suggest that writing outside those languages would not make harder to be more widely know. It was harder for russians as well. Just check out, how many translatations we have of Guimaraes Rosa, who is easily as good as any writer you listed? And Machado de Assis? Even Camões and Fernando Pessoa are less know than their peers. Look the Nobel list, Saramago in the 90's! I do not think it is a matter of competition, but I can pull up a list of great brazilian writers, quantity and quality wise, to make even with Ireland, Scotland, United States and if we frame just a given period on time, Russia, Italy, Spain, Denmark... I do not bother with that, if the europeans do not know brazilian writers, it is their loss. Its certainly made them be a easier prey to Paulo Coelho mambo jambo.

Now, there is other reasons as well. It is South America. Anyone trying to suggest that Europe does not look down to South America with contempt is trying to convice windmills to be giants. Even Argentina would be less know if wasnt the later discovery of Borges, that virtually opened doors to a lot of hispanic writers. And even so Borges (or Cortazar) are europeanized and Buenos Aires have always been the European City of Latin America. But I doubt very much that besides Cortazar, Borges, Neruda, Marquez there is much more well know writers (how many people know Juan Rulfo, Horacio Quiroga, Felisberto Hernandez, Bioy Casares, Silvina Ocampo, etc. I bet even Octavio Paz is not read by many but scholars)...

And there is faults on our own also, such the destruction of our cultural legacy after the 60's dictadorship, the lack of interest on writing culture, illiteracy, and I think mostly, brazilian cultural preference for Music, and altough our richeness there can be only be compared with likes of United States (during XX century) I bet people will only say "Samba and that guy from Girl from Ipanema..." (which would bring back the question of idiom... but well)...

[Brasil]

Why poets like Luis de Camões (Portuguese, European, white) and Fernando Pessoa (Portuguese, European, white) are almost unknown ouside Portugal and Brazil?

Even little poets from UK and USA are more readable than sacred monsters like Camões.

Camões belongs to the select group that includes Shakespeare, Dante and Cervantes. The Lusiads by Camões is an epic that follow the same poetic tradition left by Virgil in Eneid and Iliad by Homer, with the addition that The Lusiads has a historical basis, built on real facts.
Even that way, I don't know a single North-American or a British person who has read The Lusiads.

I was talking about the literature from Portugal (European, white). I know the North Europeans have prejudice against the South Europeans (latin-europeans). I heard once: "for some North Europeans, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian... people is not as white (european) as them". Maybe today this prejudice is lower, I hope.

But now think about Brazil. Even with 2.000 Machado de Assis, Brazil will never enter in the hall of "greatest lits". Because of historical domination, language, geographical localization and white ethnocentrism we are not at the same level.

Maybe someday, when the Tupi indians here building an empire to dominate the world, just maybe, Brazil will be known for something beyond naked girls, football and slums.

But I'm happy, because we have bananas.
http://www.bassey.co.uk/blog2/uploaded_images/carmen-miranda-706310.jpg :banana:

[bazarov]

Some have bananas, some literature...

[thomas212]

And some have both,i like to read eating bananas.


Pompous.

[Brasil]

Illiteracy?
The Brazilian book publishing market is bigger than that Italian, with more than 50 thousand new titles each year.

[bazarov]

I really don't understand why are you so angry.
I guess mostly people here know what and where is Portugal so you don't need to explain that. Where did you see that Northern Europeans hate Southern, how did you conclude that people from north who are white have prejudice against people who are not that white? That's sick and very untrue. And your whole post is racist! Do you really think that any normal person would not read something because writer is not white enough?

Brazil is a big country, but that really means that they have to have great literature? No, it doesn't. Maybe they have, I don't know. Except Coelho (he is bad and overrated) I don't know any of them.

And Brazil with population with 200 millions really should have bigger publishing market then 60 million of Italians. Although, I really don't know what that has to so do with this topic or anything.

[Brasil]

Brazil is a big country, but that really means that they have to have great literature? No, it doesn't. Maybe they have, I don't know....

That's my friend is the point: YOU DON'T KNOW.
And why you did not have till today the interest for research?

I'm not angry and I am not racist. But if you knew how Brazilian people has been treated in Europe you maybe give me some suport. Not just Brazilians, but all Latin-Americans, Africans and Arabians are seen as terrorists or something worst for some Europeans and North Americans. That's the sad truth, I do not applaud this arrogant attitude, but it is the truth, and you deny it.
Let's finish the discution about it. Here is not the apropriate place.

Back to the topic of the thread:
Which literature do I prefer: Ancient Greek, without a shadow of doubt.

[bazarov]

That's my friend is the point: YOU DON'T KNOW.
And why you did not have till today the interest for research?

Honestly, I don't even care. And I still have no interest. Because I judge the book and the writer, not his nationality. Whether he is form Sumatra, London, Sao Paolo or from Mars; it's irrelevant.



I'm not angry and I am not racist. But if you knew how Brazilian people has been treated in Europe you maybe give me some suport. Not just Brazilians, but all Latin-Americans, Africans and Arabians are seen as terrorists or something worst for some Europeans and North Americans. That's the sad truth, I do not applaud this arrogant attitude, but it is the truth, and you deny it.


I am from Europe and I never got that feeling. Actually, I don't know how did you get that opinion? What terrorists? And where did I deny anything?

[manolia]

I'm not angry and I am not racist. But if you knew how Brazilian people has been treated in Europe you maybe give me some suport. Not just Brazilians, but all Latin-Americans, Africans and Arabians are seen as terrorists or something worst for some Europeans and North Americans. That's the sad truth, I do not applaud this arrogant attitude, but it is the truth, and you deny it.


I agree with the some part i highlighted..
People that are racist and xenophobes are racists towards other people whether they are from latin america or north america or southern europe or northern europe or wherever. They don't seem to target specific groups.


Because I judge the book and the writer, not his nationality. Whether he is form Sumatra, London, Sao Paolo or from Mars; it's irrelevant.


I agree with that. I think that was Baz's point (of course i don't want to put words in his mouth or represent him or anything).

And just for the record, latin american literature and poetry are quite popular in my country.

[Brasil]

...Which literature in the world do you prefer?

So we are talking about countries, I think.

Actually, each country has produced singular material in different categories. I will list the most important to me. I hope you all enjoy this and try to make and share here your own list:


Lyric poem: Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, France, Italy, Portugal, Spain.

Song: Portugal, Middle East, Cuba, USA, England, Brazil, Italy, Argentina, Mexico.

Religion books: Ancient India, Ancient China, Middle east.

Epic: Babylon, India, Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, Italy, Portugal.

Philosophy: Ancient China, Ancient Greece, Germany, France, England.

Theatre: Ancient Greece, early Italy, England.

Cinema: USA, India, Germany.

Novel: Spain, Brazil, Norway, USA.

Tales/short stories: Persia, Arabia, Brazil.

[JBI]

I don't know - I just visited literally, the Worlds Biggest Bookstore today, and to be honest, even Canadian authors weren't accounted for. In terms of foreign literature, the only real way to get a hold of non-English writers, who haven't won the nobel prize, is to go to a specialty store - easy enough in Toronto - given that there is a large Portuguese community here, in addition to very many other communities - but even still, how many books are translated, how many books make the shelves, how many books get large printings, and big adverts. For the most part, in Toronto, mostly American and British books, and others that win an English language prize, or a Nobel - nothing more.

If there is no real public market, then it is only natural that translations will be limited. If translations are limited, then only native speakers can access the information, assuming it makes it over seas, which, for Toronto isn't too bad (mind you, it isn't perfect), but for even somewhere like Chicago, possibly impossible.

Brazil is actually better off than most countries, I would think, given that they have a large domestic population, and that they do not only write in English, but even an author as talented as Wilson Harris from the West Indies is essentially ignored by the majority of the mainstream occidental public, unless they are post-colonial specialists in some university.


That is probably why you see poetry as a more politically motivated post-colonial discourse than novels in many places. Just think about how many major post-colonial poets there have been, and are. One need look no further than Syria, or Lebanon, or The Palestinian Territories to find a goldmine of untranslated, fantastic verse.

[JCamilo]

Brazil, we had a huge iliterary problem, FHC governament was the first to manage the claim that all brazilians kids where going to school and be alphabetized and that was 8 years ago. And, as anything can point, a huge number of specialists would point that the level of literary they develop is not enough to develop a good reading capacity.
A recent research pointed that only 40% (close numbers) have read 3 or more books the entire year... this is ridiculous.

Anyways, I do not care with market, otherwise I would consider Paulo Coelho, because he is a market success, but his success is more damaging than helping us. I care with the notions that we do not have a great number of good writers, and that is slly. But I really doubt they will be popular. Most critics will reckon Machado de Assis, many with Drummond and Guimarães Rosa, who are arguably our 3 big genius. But they are not meant for popularity. Guimarães is not popular even here, because of his modernist prose, which also make him almost impossible to be translatated (perhaps his best translation is Finnegans Wake :D ), I heard the german translator was his favorite, but well... Drummond is poet and as JBI pointed the translation of poetry, specially with such different idioms like English or French, is not always that great. Since Drummond was more dedicated to free verses, there is not even a metrical guidance... Machado was praised for guys like Zola and his texts are easier, but right now, he is more than 100 years in the past, he is in the same vaccum Eça de Queiroz is, or Zola, Balzac, Goethe...
The major problem is that no one of our major writers are revolutionary writers that pretty much changed the story of literature, they are excelent, but even Guimaraes Rosa was giving continuity to the modernist prose... one could place then behind in the list of must read or must study...
And yeah, they are for outsider material for a specific kind of reader, but some claims here about them are forgetting the part of "we do not know" and taking for granted that we have not such great names. And that is funny, altough irrelevant.

[Brasil]

I belive Brazil is changing very fast! Some things go worst, some better.

But in USA, Shakespeare is not popular nowadays. Just the scholars, nerds and intelectuals read this kind of text. The majority of population prefer Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and this kind of stuff. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't have numbers or researchs to prove it. However, this kind of problem is not exclusivity of Brazil: teenagers are teenagers, housewives are housewives, marketing is marketing in every place. That kind of public push the sales, that's why popular books doesn't satisfy the scholar's tastes.

The classics (Machado, Drummond, Castro Alvares, Suassuna, Oswald de Andrade, Shakespeare, Goethe, Cervantes, Tolstoy...) will be always to a selected group of people.

[WICKES]

I was talking about the literature from Portugal (European, white). I know the North Europeans have prejudice against the South Europeans (latin-europeans). I heard once: "for some North Europeans, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian... people is not as white (european) as them". Maybe today this prejudice is lower, I hope.


I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but here in Britain there is a real effort in the media, by comedians, journalists etc to ridicule anything northern European as stiff, humourless and overrated and to exaggerate the quality of anything non northern European or non white. Someone from an ethnic minority would have much more chance of being published or getting on a TV arts show than a white Englishman. Kids at school are not taught to take pride in the literature of this country, instead they are given 'multi cultural' poetry by people from former colonies with a grudge against Britain. We are brought up to feel guilt about the British Empire, guilt about being white, not to be proud of our culture- almost to see anything black as good, white as bad. Maybe that is an exaggeration, but that is how it feels to be white and living in Britain in 2009- for me anyway.

[thomas212]

We are brought up to feel guilt about the British Empire, guilt about being white, not to be proud of our culture- almost to see anything black as good, white as bad. Maybe that is an exaggeration, but that is how it feels to be white and living in Britain in 2009- for me anyway.

Oh but that's heartbreaking....
I whish you could spend a day in a darker skin than yours and talk about it.
However you seem to have no probleme feeling proud of your culture,and pride in one birthplace is privilege of the weak.

[LitNetIsGreat]

But in USA, Shakespeare is not popular nowadays. Just the scholars, nerds and intelectuals read this kind of text. The majority of population prefer Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and this kind of stuff.

The classics (Machado, Drummond, Castro Alvares, Suassuna, Oswald de Andrade, Shakespeare, Goethe, Cervantes, Tolstoy...) will be always to a selected group of people.

Yes this is quite true, I'm not sure about the nerds bit;) but the majority of readers do not read the sort of texts you mention. There is still a market for the likes of Shakespeare, Goethe, Cervantes etc of course, but it is not big in comparison to popular literature. Also I'm betting that a large part of sales of the so called classics are sold to students and not to the average reader looking for "a good read."

If we take that as so then it is not hard to see why important Brazilian writers of the past (and other cultures) are not popular, or even heard of outside their own countries - quite simply there is no market for it! With that said there is always a small minority of people who will wish to seek out the "best" in literature no matter what.

[Brasil]

The Brazilian Expeditionary Force (FEB, in Portuguese) was the name given to military force of 25,300 Brazilian men who fought alongside the Allies in Italy during the Second World War.

The first victories of the FEB have occurred in September with the occupation of Massaro, Camaiore and Monte Prana.

Early in 1945, won Monte Castelo, Castelnuovo and Montesa. In Fornovo, the 148th Infantry Division from Nazi (including their commander) was surrended and arrested by Brazilian Forces.

FEB has conquered the city of Turin, after that, on 2 May 1945 in the city of Susa, northwest Italy, made junction with the French troops.

At the end of the year, the FEB had trapped more than 20,000 soldiers (14,779 in Fornovo only), 80 guns, 1,500 vehicles and 4 thousand horses, out victorious in 21 battles.

The Brazilian Air Force (FAB), through the 1st Aviation Group of Hunting in six months of its direct participation in operations of war, completed 445 missions, flew 6,144 hours, 4,442 bombs launched, and destroyed 2 aircraft, 13 locomotives, 1,304 motorized transport, 250 tank-wagons and cars, 8 armored cars, 25 bridges, 85 positions of artillery, 31 tanks of fuel and ammunition and 3 refineries.

Since 1988, Racism and prejudice (against color, sex, religion...) are prohibited by the National Constitution of Brazil.


Analysis:

Since the end of World War II (and before it), human kind try to implement ideas of freedom equality and fraternity.

However what I've seen is economic liberalism, social inequality and more wars all over the world.

Brazil's GDP is number 10 in world ranking, but we still suffer with drugs trafficking and it generates more violence.

The racism and prejudice still exist all over the world (a little less in Brazil) and a little less in Canada (I heard that on a TV program about Canada) and a little more in other countries.

Obs: Some may say there is racism and prejudice in Brazil, but that's an error of interpretation. Here in Brazil you don't see catholics killing protestants (or the inverse), you don't see terrorism, you don't see bombs against ethnicities, you don't see a group of whites hiting blacks....
The violence in Brazil is more linked to the difference between social classes. That's our real problem.

Today, some European countries are suffering with the reverse prejudice (ie; the prejudice of having prejudice).

Germany today gives a beautiful example of respect and racial interaction, but other European nations don't follow the same way (including southern countries).

British governemet (through Tony Blair) supporting the Bush's "war against terrorism" was not a good example of balance and reason.

Bush is a criminal! Fortunately, some people agree:
http://www.johnbakersblog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/blowjob.jpg

Guantanamo prison hurts human rights. Everybody hope Obama can change that situation.

Explain myself better:
When I said "north european don't see the south european as white as them" I didn't mean "white" as only the color of skin, it was more a figurative term. I tried to tell that usually the Latin-european suffer prejudice from North-europeans. The Catholic european suffer prejudice from Protestant. That's what I was trying to tell. But this situation has changed in last years. However, arabics, south-americans, indians and africans still suffer a little bit. They are not treated as equals.

My wish:
World need peace; human kind must learn how respect people from different cultures and ethnicities; people must stop buying drugs; Earth needs environmentally sustainable economy.

[Brasil]

The most important of an internet forum is meet people from all countries.
So we can have a different view upon other cultures, cause mass-media provide us a partial view.

Usually, Hollywood movies show South-America as if it was just big forests, slums, monkeys inside homes, drugs, violence, nudity, etc. That's not a true view! Europe has more nudity beachs than Brazil. Majority of people here, lives in cities, across the litoral. We have dogs as pets, not monkeys. There are beautiful cities, not just slums.

What I'm trying to tell is that really exist a traditional literature studies here. Not better and not worst than other countries.

John Gledson, English professor from the University of Liverpool, is specialist in Machado de Assis work. So, some European (not the majority) know Brazilian literature, read it and enjoy.

This forum is usefull to know more about other cultures, to improve our knowledge... and, for me, practice my english. I personally apreciate very much talk with people from other cultures, I'm very curious guy.

So, lets take this chance to learn more about different cultures, not only about literature; in addition, lets learn more about all things around general culture including literature.

FOR NEELY,

I totally agree with you.
In addition, I have to explain: I'm not against Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc. I apreciate diversity. I adore the Da Vinci Code (Dan Brown), Le Petit Prince (Exupery), The Prophet (Gibran). I don't understand why some critics pretend they dislike.

[Emil Miller]

I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but here in Britain there is a real effort in the media, by comedians, journalists etc to ridicule anything northern European as stiff, humourless and overrated and to exaggerate the quality of anything non northern European or non white. Someone from an ethnic minority would have much more chance of being published or getting on a TV arts show than a white Englishman. Kids at school are not taught to take pride in the literature of this country, instead they are given 'multi cultural' poetry by people from former colonies with a grudge against Britain. We are brought up to feel guilt about the British Empire, guilt about being white, not to be proud of our culture- almost to see anything black as good, white as bad. Maybe that is an exaggeration, but that is how it feels to be white and living in Britain in 2009- for me anyway.

Now, now Wickes,
If you're not careful you may wind up getting slapped across the wrist with a rolled up copy of the Guardian. And locked in a room with nothing to read but the Independent.

[JCamilo]

Brazil, frankly, this kind of nationalism is pointless. What does the FEB actions on world war does with literature? That looks just showing off (and a pointless showing off) just looks silly.
Plus we have a lot of racism. How not? The fact we have no organized groups doing it does not mean we do not have social structures build with racist prejudices (just check out IBGE difficulty to find more than 50% of our population to be black or anything close to that.)...

[LitNetIsGreat]

Now, now Wickes,
If you're not careful you may wind up getting slapped across the wrist with a rolled up copy of the Guardian. And locked in a room with nothing to read but the Independent.

Sounds like you two have been reading too much of the Daily Mail! Yes I certainly think there is a lot of exaggeration in that last post by Wickes:



Originally Posted by WICKES
I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but here in Britain there is a real effort in the media, by comedians, journalists etc to ridicule anything northern European as stiff, humourless and overrated and to exaggerate the quality of anything non northern European or non white. Someone from an ethnic minority would have much more chance of being published or getting on a TV arts show than a white Englishman. Kids at school are not taught to take pride in the literature of this country, instead they are given 'multi cultural' poetry by people from former colonies with a grudge against Britain. We are brought up to feel guilt about the British Empire, guilt about being white, not to be proud of our culture- almost to see anything black as good, white as bad. Maybe that is an exaggeration, but that is how it feels to be white and living in Britain in 2009- for me anyway.

I would be the first to admit that we have major problems in our schools, a large percentage of them anyway, but this has nothing to do with black or white, it has more to do with government policy, behaviour and general attitudes to learning. There is much more to it than that but race is not an issue at all.

[Brasil]

I was trying to emphasize the sacrifice of our forces, and that sacrife is almost unknown by the Brazilians. I'm tired of seeing Brazilian teachers telling lies about Brazilian actions in WWII. It was more an outflow to the Brazilians here.

What it does with literature? Nothing, but Wickes and me were in a debate about racism, so I just remember the Brazilian effort fighting against Nazism. I don't know if you missed the beginning of debate.
Now I hope we get back to literature thread, and I hope Wickes wants the same thing.

Now read again my post with more attention. First I said:

"racism and prejudice still exist all over the world (a little less in Brazil) and a little less in Canada".

I did not deny the racism in Brazil, but certanly racism here is not comparable to that in other places I won't mention.

Then I said:

"Some may say there is racism and prejudice in Brazil, but that's an error of interpretation. Here in Brazil you don't see catholics killing protestants (or the inverse), you don't see terrorism, you don't see bombs against ethnicities, you don't see a group of whites hiting blacks....
The violence in Brazil is more linked to the difference between social classes. That's our real problem".

So, in general, when you look outside, when you look at other places, you see there is no racism in Brazil. Course, here we know exist some racism and we feel it, but compare with other nations, you will see racism here is almost insignificant.

Now let's change, please, let's back to literature. I won't extend this more.

[Emil Miller]

"The defendant will now stand!

Wickes! You have been found guilty of the heinous crime of racism. The fact that it has nothing to do with the truth is neither here nor there. Your defence of Western literature falls far below the necessity to maintain a liberal multi-cultural view of society and, therefore, I sentence you to two weeks community service removing British National Party graffiti from the increasing number of sites that mar our racialy harmonious city."

Remember, you read it here first.

[bazarov]

The Brazilian Expeditionary Force (FEB, in Portuguese) was the name given to military force of 25,300 Brazilian men who fought alongside the Allies in Italy during the Second World War.

The first victories of the FEB have occurred in September with the occupation of Massaro, Camaiore and Monte Prana.

Early in 1945, won Monte Castelo, Castelnuovo and Montesa. In Fornovo, the 148th Infantry Division from Nazi (including their commander) was surrended and arrested by Brazilian Forces.

FEB has conquered the city of Turin, after that, on 2 May 1945 in the city of Susa, northwest Italy, made junction with the French troops.

At the end of the year, the FEB had trapped more than 20,000 soldiers (14,779 in Fornovo only), 80 guns, 1,500 vehicles and 4 thousand horses, out victorious in 21 battles.

The Brazilian Air Force (FAB), through the 1st Aviation Group of Hunting in six months of its direct participation in operations of war, completed 445 missions, flew 6,144 hours, 4,442 bombs launched, and destroyed 2 aircraft, 13 locomotives, 1,304 motorized transport, 250 tank-wagons and cars, 8 armored cars, 25 bridges, 85 positions of artillery, 31 tanks of fuel and ammunition and 3 refineries.




Interesting.
Brazil fought with allies so today we should have more respect for Brazilian literature? Should Americans also read Polish writers more then usual in honor of Tadeuzsz Kosciuszko? Should whole world just forget German and Italian writers because of Hitler and Mussolini? Or read Jewish writers more because of holocaust? Can you name any writer form Yugoslavia - they had huge impact on war in Southern Europe? Should they also be honored in Brazil, USA or Canada? What about Spain and Portugal? Bit tricky, they were neutral. But it would be stupid to lose Cervantes-let's take them in also!

Do you realize how stupid this way of thinking is?
And why are you acting like someone is minorizing Brazil and Brazilians?


I doubt Germany would be that friendly today if they weren't what they were in WWII with the whole world watching are they really sorry for victims?

Also, this is literature forum. Stick to the literature, leave junkies, Blair, Guantanamo, Bush and other ''problems'' outside.

[JBI]

Besides which 25300 is a pretty small number, when one considers that 1.1 million Canadians served, while the population was 1/4 that of Brazil's. but you don't see me bragging. I find it a little ridiculous that you would bring that up, given that more people died serving from much smaller countries than served from Brazil, and those countries still don't have any of their authors read on the international scale. But even so, what does that have to do with literature?

World War 2 literature for the most part was pretty crappy. The good stuff regarding the war seems written afterwords. In terms of literary output, the First World War seems to have generated the better writers, though the influence of the Holocaust has generated almost uncountable powerful reads, all of which coming after the war, in reflection.

[JCamilo]

Obviously, Elvis is a greater musician than Beethoveen because Elvis fought in a war.

[Brasil]

I was trying to emphasize the sacrifice of our forces, and that sacrife is almost unknown by the Brazilians. I'm tired of seeing Brazilian teachers telling lies about Brazilian actions in WWII. It was more an outflow to the Brazilians here.

What it does with literature? Nothing, but Wickes and me were in a debate about racism, so I just remember the Brazilian effort fighting against Nazism. I don't know if you missed the beginning of debate.
Now I hope we get back to literature thread, and I hope Wickes wants the same thing..

I was not talking about literature at that moment.