Word , word what is in a word- Reading the Qur'an

[Nightshade]

Words, they often carry more meaning than we realise at times . ( Ill get round to explaining this in a bit)


Ok I am going to try and curtail my natural rambling nonlinear dare I even say slightly loopy way of think into more “normal” structure. Except of course I never put up an OP without a bit of me in it! :D
So Firstly why I am starting this thread( aka the purpose of this thread) : Well they are manifold ( or do you say is for manifold? Profile message me if you know the answer !:D )

1) Nick kind of trapped me but I think that you can’t just dive in and discuss Quaranic structure or indeed themes or content without having this discussion first.
2) It has come to my attention that there are a number of semantically breakdowns in all the other discussions we’ve pretty much ever had relating to Islam.
3) Playing attack and defend is not conducive to discussion!
4) And other reasons but I really don’t need to start going into all of them except to point out in nice BIG font THIS THREAD IS NOT MEANT TO CONVERT ANYONE. See some of my favourite ayahs

"109.1": Say: O unbelievers!
"109.2": I do not serve that which you serve,
"109.3": Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
"109.4": Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
"109.5": Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
"109.6": You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion

So to the question ( or makeup there of) :

1: Translations or interpretations, the debate has raged as long as they have exsisted. What are they, how right are they. Which do you use and are you aware of the MAJOR errors?

2) Allah is really almost literally interchangeable with The God, so really barring the question of Jesus Christ as God in principle Abrahamic religions all worship the same god. ( I kind of get annoyed when I constantly here people referring to God and Allah they are the same being!!!)

3) Basic things that you should be aware of about the Arabic language and the Quran and about the ‘lost in translation ‘ things

So play nice no belief bashing please ( and I mean that from both sides meaning respect whatever a person chooses to believe or not believe and if you cant play nice don’t bother posting in the thread at all)

And Ill post my own thoughts in a bit :D

[Niamh]

I am looking forward to reading this discussion once it gets underway. I have not read the Quran, so i will refrain from trying to discuss it. But you know me well and know how much i like to be able to understand other religions and respect them.
I think that the passage you quoted was a good choice as it really goes to show how much people DO take info out of context when it comes to the text. What i can get is that it is saying, Although we both do not believe the same things, i will not preach mine to you as you will not to me, and that we respect each others beliefs.
Jesus Christ said "love one another as i have loved you." This message is not just for christians to show the same love to christians, but to love ALL. :nod:

[NickAdams]

You've posted the thread.:banana:

Now I just have to purchase a copy of the Quran. I wonder if they have published a dual-text edition.

[Nightshade]

Personally I don’t believe in using the term translation when referring to the Qur’an because inevitably it is an interpretation. The language, the interpreter the publisher and other things all ultimately affect the ultimate product you read. for example in Abdullah Yousef’s edition ( one of the most widely read he renames the second surrah from cow to The children of Israel. That is probably the most glaring thing, but there are lots of other little things.

In Arabic plurals work in a rather odd way, certain conjugations mean 2 or more, 3-6, large groups, infinite . then there is the male female split and all sorts of other bits and bobs, but in English it boils down to You.
So when you read Surrah 55, El Rahman( The Gracious) which address the two races human and Jinn, you miss that whole layer) because the whole surrah just says You.

And of course here is one for you : what is the first ayah of the Qur’an? Anyone?
NO it ISNT

All praise to Allah the Lord ( Sustainer and Cherisher) of all the worlds
But

In the name of God the Most Gracious the Most Merciful
A fact Ive seen no less than 4 translations online just now miss because it is so ingrainded that Muslims say it at the start of every surrah (provided you aren’t praying at the time) that people forget it actually IS part of suurat El fatihah. Actually I once went to a mosque and couldn’t figure out what was wrong ( it was taraweeh so it wasn’t till the 11th rakah that I realised the guy wasn’t saying the first ayah of el fatiha!


Anyway that was a little aside to point out that the second ayah of the quarn refer all the worlds well in some interpretations it just says worlds missing out the fact that that form of plural refers to 3 or more to infinity .
Another thing I noticed I’ve seen people quote ayahs where the term ‘WE’ is used, now what the out of context and rather loose interpretation fails to make clear is all that punishing and fore and stuff- that is all done by God. The WE is a royal We and the point of it is that God will deal and punish people and humans shouldn’t be persecuting or judging people.
:D

[Nightshade]

You've posted the thread.:banana:

Now I just have to purchase a copy of the Quran. I wonder if they have published a dual-text edition.

Sure they do nick, the good ones do anyway, I like the dual text Saheeh international edition, although I do have a few gripes with that too, as I was reading a passage in arabic and then again in english. But at least it has alot acccomanying context notes and a good index and such :nod:

[Niamh]

you know what was cool? that arabic and latin Quaran we saw in the Chester Betty Library! :nod:

[Nightshade]

you know what was cool? that arabic and latin Quaran we saw in the Chester Betty Library! :nod:
umm wasnt that the bible? Im sure it was the bible... :confused:

[Niamh]

Was it the bible??? hum.... sure it was a Quran!

[planet earth]

Thank you for the thread Night shade.

I will tell you my own experience in translations of the Quran

There lots of alterations ofcourse. For Example the Words Al-Rahman and Al-Raheem. Both are names of Allah implying Mercy. In English one is the gracious and the other is the merciful, and if you swap their order in English, it would not matter, but in Arabic it is crucial for the following reasons:

Before discussing their meanings, some quranic verses including both verses must be displayed:


Supplicate to "Allah" or supplicate to the "Rahman", through whichever you supplicate, He has the splendid appellations. And be not too loud in thy prayer nor speak it in too low a voice, but follow a way in-between Quran 17:110


They said the Rahman had taken a son to Himself Quran 19:88


And they say "The Rahman" begot a son, Glory to Him, They're but honorable worshippers. Quran 21:26


Say He is the "Rahman" our faith is unto Him and Upon Him we relied, and you will know who is in revealed misguidance Quran 67:29

As for “Al Raheem”


Know they not that Allah is He Who accepts repentance from His bondmen and takes the alms, and that Allah is He Who is the Relenting, the Merciful (Raheem) Quran 9:104


Inform my worshippers that I am the The Merciful (Raheem) Pardoner Quran 15:49


One of Allah's names is "the Generous"; “Al Kareem”. The word generous was also an adjective describing someone acting with generosity. Similarly the word Raheem or merciful, which was used as an attribute to Allah, could also describe people acting with mercy. So a sentence describing a boy treating a cat with mercy can be written: The boy was merciful or "raheem" with the cat. The boy could not be described as Rahman with the cat. The term “The Rahman” had no accurate equivalent in English but could be translated as “The Merciant” if the suffix –ant was added to the word.

Hence the word "The Rahman" was exploited solely and exclusively to refer to Allah. "The Rahman" gathered both meanings of absolute Oneness and of absolute Mercy in one word. Therefore, "The Rahman" cannot be substituted by "The Raheem". Otherwise, the meaning would be completely distorted. For example in (21:26) above if the word "The Rahman" is replaced for "Al Raheem the verse would read:

And they say "The Raheem" begot a son. Glory to Him, They are but honorable worshippers.

The word "The Raheem" or the Merciful here would be totally inappropriate. The word which could be used as an adjective attributed to anyone acting with Mercy could be misunderstood to imply polytheism and plurality, which was not the message Muhammad came with. The Godly choice of the exclusive Name "Al Rahman" gives no chance for associating any company or partner to the Originator of the Universe. True was Allah's saying in the Quran "Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)?
Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy”Quran 4:82

[Nightshade]

Ok that is another thing, if we are going to discuss the qu'ran we have to come to some kind of basicc agreement such as a format for presntation. In otherwords referance referance referance, and better yet using the quote function would be marvellous at least at this stage anyway. if you don't know how to use the quote function just ask, most members are happy to help.

[planet earth]

I edited my above reply. I hope it is better now:)

[papayahed]

erm... What is surrah and ayah?

[Nightshade]

A surrah is a chapter and an ayyah is a verse.
The quran is made up of 114 suurahs of which the longest is the second el Baqurah ( the cow ) and the shortest is 108 EL kowthur ( -apparntly(just looked it up-- means literally the most abundant good) with 3 ayyahs ( a total of 10 words there are others that also have 3 ayyahs but are longer).
There are then other divisions of Juzza and Hizb. There are 30 Juzzas and 60 Hizbs.

You can read the quran by suurah, juzza or hizb. I personally preffer surrah towards the begining and juzza towards the end but hat is mostly because of length.
The one thing you really arent meant to do is read only part of an ayyah, always go right to the end and then stop. Although there are various markings with in the quarn to mark where you may and may not pause during recital .


I edited my above reply. I hope it is better now:)

Thank you :D

[papayahed]

What are Juzza and Hizb?

Are they the same as chapters and verses?

[Nightshade]

No not really Juzza litrally means part or secction. ccant think what Hizb means exactly, and dont know why these divisons exsist but thhere are 2 hizbs in a Juzza. and they can be made up of part of one surrah or many surrahs, for instance el baqqrah ( surrah 2) is made up of more than 2 Juzzas but the last Juzza ( which is know as Juzza Amah) is made up of 34 surrahs.
I guess it is a more exact length of words or verses or something. Ive nevre really bothered to count them, I guess Ill have to look it up as soon as I get a minute. :D

[Niamh]

Can you do me a favour and when you mention you know... certain words that i cant pronounce, can you give us a pronunciation??? :D for example...Hizb???

[planet earth]

What are Juzza and Hizb?

Are they the same as chapters and verses?

Simply, they are Divisions and Subdivisions in the Quran to help the reader read, and simplify learning by heart.

Mainly as Nightshade pointed our there are 114 chapters in the Quran which vary in length from extremely long to medium to short. The longest chapter "The Cow" consists of 286 verses for example, while "Abundance" consists of three very short verses.

Therefore, a regular reader of the Quran would not be able to read all of "The Cow Chapter" in a 30 minute daily session of Quran, while he would finish many of the very short chapters.

This led to the need to divide the Quran into 30 sections. Each sections could contain part of a chapter, if the chapter is very long, of course more than one chapter depending on the length of chapters.

Regular readers of the Quran prefer reading it on monthly basis and therefore, the number of sections was thirty. Each section is subdivided into 2 main subdivisions, and each of these subdivision is divided into four quarters. The main aim is to simplify reading, as I pointed out before. The smallest subdivision will be around two and a half pages long, for those who want to read the smallest portion of the Quran.

In Quoting passages and texts from the Quran only Chapter number and verse number are used. All the other divisions and subdivisions would only concern learners by heart, and regular readers as mentioned earlier.

I checked out this link in Arabic before I placed my reply
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/arabic/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=5499
:)

[planet earth]

Can you do me a favour and when you mention you know... certain words that i cant pronounce, can you give us a pronunciation??? :D for example...Hizb???

I guess the closest pronunciation to Hizb is the way you'll say "hesb"
Surrah == soorah
Juzza == Jui - Z - a sound at the end.

I will search however, for more accurate transliterations if I find any.

[muhsin]

:banana:

[papayahed]

Let's just say that maybe I might want to read The Koran and let's say I picked up some random version at my local bookstore. Should I worry about the translator? Should I look for one version over another? Is there a specific way I should read it or should I just go cover to cover?

[planet earth]

Let's just say that maybe I might want to read The Koran and let's say I picked up some random version at my local bookstore. Should I worry about the translator? Should I look for one version over another? Is there a specific way I should read it or should I just go cover to cover?

Before purchasing a copy of the Quran you can have a look at this website where three very good translations are available. M. Asad is one of the best.

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

Regarding sequence, there is no specific sequence to read with but as long as you will be reading it for the first time then it would be a good idea to start at the beginning and finish at the end.

Those who learn the Quran by heart, especially if at a young age would however, start from back to front, to start with the shorter chapters.

[Nightshade]

I am supposed to be studying but I just couldn't resist posting http://islamicbookstore.com/b5269.html
This is the translation I like the best, the English is clear, the translation was done very scientifically ( and they have a nice long forward explaining the techniques and sources for the translation ) also a bit into of a divergence into Arabic grammar. It has a brilliant index , and a sort of guide to pronouncing Arabic. Plus a difference this woman had from say A. Yousef is that Arabic was her first language and she is also very very fluent in English. Also loads of commentary and footnotes but they don't muddle in with the text so it is easy reading but you can also gather context and such.

But yeah , you need to be aware of who it is that's translating and what edition it is. A number of translations have been withdrawn as it were because they have been revised due mistranslations.
Eg I found a translation of El rahman where stars suddenly became herbs among other weirdness.
Start at the begining and go on is best, but don't rush Id say it takes a good 2-3 months the first few times. Kind of like most philosophy type things really you need to stop and digest the ideas. Or maybe that is just me ? :D

[West]

A fact Ive seen no less than 4 translations online just now miss because it is so ingrainded that Muslims say it at the start of every surrah (provided you aren’t praying at the time) that people forget it actually IS part of suurat El fatihah. Actually I once went to a mosque and couldn’t figure out what was wrong ( it was taraweeh so it wasn’t till the 11th rakah that I realised the guy wasn’t saying the first ayah of el fatiha! :D




It is possible that he recited the Basmalah but did so quitely. That is how I recite when I am praying alone or with a group that I know will not mind or get confused by my ommission of the basmalah(I say it quitely), I recite the Bismillah but not aloud for all chapters including the Fatiha. There is a good read about this in this link http://affadshaikh.blogspot.com/2008/10/to-read-outloud-or-not-that-is-question.html if you want to take a look at it. The article is by someone who got into trouble with his relatives by exactly doing what I do or most likely was done by the guy you prayed tarawih with before.

You will see in there the different opinions regarding the recitation of Bismillah loudly or quitely. If that would not be enough, then let me know, I will dig some more sources up for you.

[NickAdams]

I am supposed to be studying but I just couldn't resist posting http://islamicbookstore.com/b5269.html
This is the translation I like the best, the English is clear, the translation was done very scientifically ( and they have a nice long forward explaining the techniques and sources for the translation ) also a bit into of a divergence into Arabic grammar. It has a brilliant index , and a sort of guide to pronouncing Arabic. Plus a difference this woman had from say A. Yousef is that Arabic was her first language and she is also very very fluent in English. Also loads of commentary and footnotes but they don't muddle in with the text so it is easy reading but you can also gather context and such.

But yeah , you need to be aware of who it is that's translating and what edition it is. A number of translations have been withdrawn as it were because they have been revised due mistranslations.
Eg I found a translation of El rahman where stars suddenly became herbs among other weirdness.
Start at the begining and go on is best, but don't rush Id say it takes a good 2-3 months the first few times. Kind of like most philosophy type things really you need to stop and digest the ideas. Or maybe that is just me ? :D

This is the one I plan on getting. I saw it in B&N yesterday, but got Harold Bloom's The Western Cannon instead. I'll get the Quran next week.:thumbs_up

[planet earth]

The Quran consists of 6666 verses
1000 To Dos
1000 To Do nots
1000 Promises
1000 Warnings
1000 Parables
1000 stories

Mainly. I will check what the remaining 666 verses tackle and send later Inshallah