Superman or Batman Poll [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

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IWilKikU

03-07-2005, 07:30 AM

Ok, some of you are thinking "what??? This is a LITERATURE forum. We have no room for comic-strip super heroes here!" Well, to you I say "Cursed be he (or she) that thinks graphic novels arn't literature!" And also "Bite my bag, you!" So on to the debate!

The Dark Knight takes it for me. He has a sinister dark side which makes him more realistic as a person, and more scary to villianous criminals who lurk in Gotham's deapths. Also he is but a man, while Supe's is an alien from Krypton who has natural super powers, the big Cheater! Does anyone remember when Superman and Batman fought and Batman won? That was frickity-wicked sweet. Go Batz!

However, Superman is intreguing for all the reasons that Bill Rattles off in 'Kill Bill, Vol. 2'. In case you havn't seen Vol. 2,... WHAT?!?!? You havn't seen Vol. 2?!?!?! Stop reading this useless waste of internet bandwidth and go watch Vol. 2 right now!!!

Scheherazade

03-07-2005, 08:28 AM

For me, it's always been Superman. Simply because he simply IS super. He did not acquire his powers as a result of an accident by luck (or tough luck?) or he does not need the technology and gadgets to make him 'super'. If you take away Batman's mask and toys away, he will be just another man. Pffttt! :p

PS: I haven't seen Batman vs Superman. 'Batman won' says you? What an outrage! I bet it was a publicity stunt by the Batman team!

papayahed

03-07-2005, 08:30 AM

I'd have to go with Batman, like kik said he has a darker side, he's mysterious. Superman is too good, a goody-two-shoes even. Plus Batman has a more intriguing costume...

mono

03-07-2005, 09:56 AM

Since childhood I have always adored both, but thought more highly of Batman. True, Superman has some astounding super-powers, similar to Spiderman, Wonderwoman, Flash, etc., but Batman defeats his enemies with his cunning genius of inventing these cool gadgets, and, like Superman, still manages to hide his real identity.

RyuKid

03-07-2005, 11:10 PM

Superman, I find his character to be more interesting. He has a far more mysterious past. He is also a prime example of what is wrong in society through his true costume "Clark Kent".

subterranean

03-07-2005, 11:46 PM

OK, this is about comparing characters. IMO (as far as I know) Superman uses less supporting equipments to support his actions. Batman has those stuffs (mobile, special weapons, etc). So IMO (again) Superman has better quality as a hero than Batman. :nod:

baddad

03-08-2005, 02:11 AM

Batman has to work his butt off in order to be super. Not so with the alian from Krypton. I vote for the local working stiff everytime, because he is the 'real' hero.

GreenDog

03-08-2005, 04:38 AM

Batman.
He is a superhero without actual super powers; sure he has money, technology, and extraordinary physical and mental characters, but no super powers.

He is constantly balancing on the edge between "good" and "evil", if he had to do something illegal, or brutal to dispose of one of his enemies he would do it. He is a more complex character…

Also the twisted opponents he has, the surreal Gotham and the dark atmosphere, seem both more fantastic and more realistic to me.

Scheherazade

03-08-2005, 05:17 AM

Capnplank

03-08-2005, 11:53 AM

Batman.

Superman was born into greatness - with his powers, he would either be protector or ruler of Earth. Batman, on the other hand, could probably have been much easier corrupted than turned do-gooder by having nothing but a fortune and a haunting past, yet he overcomes this to try to make the world a better place.

Plus Batman's costume has gotten a lot better since the 60s or 70s or whenever. Whenever I've seen it, Superman's has always still been prancy tights and a cape, bright-*** blue and red. Get with the times! At least pretend you have some need for subtlety.

Helga

03-08-2005, 02:59 PM

crisaor

03-08-2005, 03:59 PM

Batman, all the way, by far.
Curious people might want to check out The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller, for a glance at one of their fights. And guess who wins? ;)

Sitaram

03-08-2005, 05:04 PM

HEAR, HEAR!!!

I am wondering if it is more correct to say "Here, Here!!!" analogous to "There, there" (as opposed to "Their, Their")

But, if I am in error, you may justifiably rebuke me with a stern, "Now! Now!"

Well, someone who knows far more than I do has just informed me that it is indeed, "Hear Hear" ... which looks so peculiar to me in print. I have only heard the expression said on television.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhear.html

The correct term is, "hear, hear!" It is an abbreviation for "hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!"

And, of course, we must never miss an opportunity to be Biblical:

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19980304

"Then cried a wise woman out of the city, Hear, hear" (King James Bible, 2 Samuel xx 16).

Scheherazade

03-08-2005, 05:14 PM

OK, to prevent further confusion:

"Hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!" :D

Superman, I find his character to be more interesting. He has a far more mysterious past. He is also a prime example of what is wrong in society through his true costume "Clark Kent".

crisaor

03-08-2005, 05:39 PM

C'mon, mysterious past????? He came in an alien spaceship, which is a very common origin for superheroes, and I can give you a list of those if you're interested. Batman is an unique character, Superman is not, there are lots of chracaters very similar to him (both powers and character wise).

subterranean

03-08-2005, 08:01 PM

I think Batman got many supporters cause he's 100% human, which perhaps leads people to fantasize that wish they could be like him...

Just babbling..;)

Anselmus

03-09-2005, 12:42 AM

I agree with the supporters of Batman, for mostly the same reasons. As I almost posted in the 'favorite character' thread, I'm a dedicated fan of the reluctant hero, which batman is imo. Superman is a hero because of his powers; he can, so he does. Batman is a hero because of the slaying of his parents - which you may say is voluntary, but I think it's a psychological compulsion for him. Batman would prefer to be normal, live a normal life, and let the police handle the criminals, but since his family was taken from him he can no longer have a normal life. He has several major character flaws as a human being, but he makes up for it by fighting evil. Superman is just too perfect - very unrealistic.

imthefoolonthehill

03-09-2005, 01:00 AM

Batman... because he's more sneaky.

Like Sam Fisher.

baddad

03-09-2005, 02:23 AM

Superman, I find his character to be more interesting. He has a far more mysterious past. He is also a prime example of what is wrong in society through his true costume "Clark Kent".

I want to echo Sher's "hear, hear!" but Ryukid's comment leaves me wanting an explanation. Is alter ego, "Clark Kent" too afraid of involvement in others lives? Is Kent feckless, prefers not to get invovled, turns a blind eye to anything that does not turn him a profit in some manner? Or is Kent only a notoriously bad dresser? What exactly is Clark Kent a metaphor.

*nods to Sub for the psychological insight into my day*

*contemplates last comment in light of Fool's snappy insight...*

Scheherazade

03-09-2005, 05:58 AM

crisaor

03-10-2005, 01:11 PM

I believe Superman's greatness lies a lot with his Clark Kent alterego. urity. He could very easily choose to make himself rich and lead a relatively easy life when he is off duty but, being the real great hero he is, he opts for the life of a nobody. He lives as Clark Kent:a geek, a 'loser' in the eyes of many. Although he doesn't have to, he wishes to see the world in the eyes of an ordinary man. And, that is, my friends, what I call real greatness! Not isolating himself from 'everyman', not choosing the easy way out. And his preference to be a 'Clark Kent' shows his humourous side as well, which is a very 'human' trait.
Yes, but I think you're approaching it the wrong way. He's not an alien that chooses to live and pass as a human being. He is a human being that chooses to accept and act accordingly to his alien nature. He was raised by humans as a baby, he was never really in touch with his original culture. When alone, he considers himself to be Clark Kent, not Superman. Batman on the other hand, he's the real one, Bruce Wayne is the facade, the one who pretends. In one of the Sandman's books, they meet for a moment in dreams, and they are portrayed in this way also.

And as for those who criticise him for not having a darker side... Let's make no mistakes;Superman is no ordinary superhero. With his strength and powers, he is not allowed to have a darker side. He should not have a darker side. Can you imagine what would happen if he did? Who could stop him from corrupting all the way?
He has a darker side, he killed 3 villains who had his same powers in order to stop them. And regarding the other issue, Batman did. :nod:

And what's our fascination with the darker side anyway? Why can't we be happy with goodness?
Not with the dark side, with the resistance to it. Batman could've taken the fall any minute, taking his revenge way far (think of the Punisher, for instance), but he never did. He deals with it every night, and comes home unchanged in his resolve.

Damn, I look like a comic nerd. :goof:

IWilKikU

03-10-2005, 03:07 PM

I believe Superman's greatness lies a lot with his Clark Kent alterego. When he does not dress up in his tights and cape to save the world or fight with the evil, he does not demand attention. He prefers to lead a life in obscurity. He could very easily choose to make himself rich and lead a relatively easy life when he is off duty but, being the real great hero he is, he opts for the life of a nobody. He lives as Clark Kent:a geek, a 'loser' in the eyes of many. Although he doesn't have to, he wishes to see the world in the eyes of an ordinary man. And, that is, my friends, what I call real greatness! Not isolating himself from 'everyman', not choosing the easy way out. And his preference to be a 'Clark Kent' shows his humourous side as well, which is a very 'human' trait.

Supe's alter ego is significant, but I don't think it is quite the way you see it as. Check out Tarrintino's critique of Superman in Kill Bill (I looked for the script so I could quote it, but this silly library comp. doesn't have acrobat and the only format I could find was PDF :(). Superman is who he is. Clark Kent is his 'alter ego', which is the opposite of most hero's. When they 'become' heroes, they put on a costume. Superman's 'costume' was in his spacecraft with him. He dresses up to fit in. Which means that Clark Kent is his analysis of the human race. That's how he sees us, dorky, weak, and awkward. It's not that thats who he would prefer to be, because really he doesn't have to put on his red & yellow and fly around looking for injustice to right, its just what he does. Also it always pissed me off that nobody noticed that Clark was just superman with glasses :mad: ! I mean seriously! He didn't have any kind of disguise! With Superman's celebrity status, couldn't any idiot say, gee Clark, you look exactly like Superman! Especially Lois who was Clark's partner (in the newspaper) and did some intimate in-depth interviews with Superman. She didn't know for YEARS! I mean, COME ON!!! YEACH!!! :rage: .

Also, the Batman writers are just better. Look at his villians, storylines, surroundings, psychology, etc... This is some good literature, while Superman comics rely more on 'look how cool and good and super Superman is!' :goof:

baddad

03-11-2005, 03:57 AM

Wow!! Comics, literature.....man oh man!~!!!!, we've got it all!!!!

YEAH BABY!!!! And if you care to peruse the poll. Batman is kicking Superman's buns of steel!!! Go Batty!!!

Scheherazade

03-11-2005, 02:38 PM

Boys, boys, boys...

I am so sad to see how misguided you are... I don't know from where to begin really...

He is a human being that chooses to accept and act accordingly to his alien nature. He was raised by humans as a baby, he was never really in touch with his original culture.Superman IS an alien. Think of Mowgli, think of Tarzan. Because they were raised by animals, are they not humanbeings anymore? Superman might be raised by humans but he still is an alien. He loves this planet and its people so much that he tries to live like one of us and, I repeat, he does not choose to benefit from his powers to lead an easy life.

Which means that Clark Kent is his analysis of the human race. That's how he sees us, dorky, weak, and awkward.He is just wants to be one of us. Look at this site;look around you. His analysis is that far off really? ;) Especially if people around him fail to realise that he is Superman for so long? ;) It is not really his fault that people fail to recognise him now, is it?

He has a darker side, he killed 3 villains who had his same powers in order to stop them. I am not sure if killing villains who trying to take over the earth would be considered as having a dark side but OK then. He does have a darker side too... which he puts in good use.

I really did not want to target Batman while promoting Superman but since everyone else is doing it...

Who is Batman? Bruce Wayne. Who is Bruce Wayne? A rich man who is very bitter about his parents' death and ever since who has not been able to have proper social relationships. He shuts himself away from the people whom he tries to 'protect'. Come on now! You say Superman depicts humans as geeks but Batman cannot bring himself to have a normal relationship with them unless he pretends to be someone else. Someone much superior and their 'hero'. What does that say about the way he actually sees the ordinary people?

And if you care to peruse the poll. Batman is kicking Superman's buns of steel!!! Go Batty!!! The poll result only shows me that so many are misguided;so many of us cannot accept or face the fact that there might be someone out there;someone who do not have our human weaknesses and shortcomings. Thus, many choose to call someone like themselves a superhero. Which is ironic, isn't it?

Jack_Aubrey

03-11-2005, 07:00 PM

I hate superhero's but if I had to choose the one I liked best, it would ahve to be Batman aka Bizzle Mizzle.

crisaor

03-12-2005, 03:28 PM

Superman IS an alien. Think of Mowgli, think of Tarzan. Because they were raised by animals, are they not humanbeings anymore? Superman might be raised by humans but he still is an alien. He loves this planet and its people so much that he tries to live like one of us and, I repeat, he does not choose to benefit from his powers to lead an easy life.
It appears I'm not the only one "misguided". Does Mowgli behave like a human? You know many humans who befriend a panther? Does Tarzan behave like the other humans that go hunt in the jungle? Does he not consider apes as his brothers instead of other humans? Superman considers himself to be human, he treats other people as his peers. If everything was fine, he'd be happy to be Clark Kent forever. Have you ever read any Superman comics at all?

I am not sure if killing villains who trying to take over the earth would be considered as having a dark side but OK then. He does have a darker side too... which he puts in good use.
So, killing does not constitute a dark side to you, but wearing a black cape and acting scary does. :confused: I'm astonished at your superhero parameters.

The poll result only shows me that so many are misguided;so many of us cannot accept or face the fact that there might be someone out there;someone who do not have our human weaknesses and shortcomings. Thus, many choose to call someone like themselves a superhero. Which is ironic, isn't it?
Since you appear to be so rid of "misguidance", next time try using positive arguments to describe your tastes instead of bashing others in order to do so.

Scheherazade

03-12-2005, 03:34 PM

Crisaor,

I apologise. I did not realise that 'comics' and Batman meant so much to you. Meanwhile, you might like to check this (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=46104&dict=CALD) . One of the nicest words that I like in English.

crisaor

03-12-2005, 03:40 PM

I'd rather you wouldn't make false apologies. Or at least, not making fun of people at the same time.

IWilKikU

03-13-2005, 04:36 PM

:lol::lol::lol: This is great! But seriously... Crisaor, I havn't read much comics in YEARS, but when I was into them, I only remember Superman killing 2 villians: Cyborg and Conduit. Am I missing somthing? Did he have another run-in with Doomsday?

Scheherazade, Touche' on the rich guy thing! Good point, but not good enough to sway my loyalty to the Dark Knight! :D ... Not to mention discredit all of the fantastic arguements offered by Cris and myself! :cool: And besides, the poll trumps all. Everyone put your faith and trust in the infallable poll :angel:

baddad

03-13-2005, 09:50 PM

Sher my friend, loved your link.......but bow to the poll...."the Claw!!!, the Claw!!!" *wonders if anyone else noticed the fundamentalists in the arcade machine in 'Toy Story'*

imthefoolonthehill

03-14-2005, 02:27 AM

it might be interesting to see which percentage of each sex voted for each candidate.

subterranean

03-14-2005, 04:52 AM

cranky pants ;)

JK Cris

I'd rather you wouldn't make false apologies. Or at least, not making fun of people at the same time.

Scheherazade

03-14-2005, 05:28 AM

Everyone put your faith and trust in the infallable poll
Sure, why not? Time and again, the history has already proved that THE best man always wins the polls/votes/elections anyway! ;)

Sher my friend, loved your link.......but bow to the poll...."
*edit*

it might be interesting to see which percentage of each sex voted for each candidate.
Interesting point, Fool. Seems like of those who voted for Superman, 66 % are female whereas only 13 % of those who voted for Batman are female. (I apologise if I misjudged anyone's gender! :) )

So maybe boys idolise the gadget loving Bruce Wayne more! *does NOT comment on this* :D

Jay

03-14-2005, 07:55 AM

Cris, just something about 'acting human'... what's wrong with human befriending panthers? Or any other animals? Ever heard of Monty Roberts (http://www.montyroberts.com/)? Does him 'befriending' horses make him a horse? Are you actually saying Tarzan and Maugli are not humans?

crisaor

03-14-2005, 04:13 PM

Oh, there's nothing wrong with that, in fact I wish I could do it. But what I meant was that both Tarzan and Mowgli can't be consider 'human' (not in the literal sense, but in the metaphorical one) because neither of them acts like one; because they're clearly something else than humans, since they posess unique traits that no other normal person does (in this case, animal kindship/friendship); and because neither of them perceives himself to be human, to be part of the humanity, of the civilization, in their mind, they belong to the jungle, that's their habitat, it's what they know.

Crisaor, I havn't read much comics in YEARS, but when I was into them, I only remember Superman killing 2 villians: Cyborg and Conduit. Am I missing somthing? Did he have another run-in with Doomsday?
Neither have I. But I can tell you that he didn't kill Cyborg, supposedly he can't die. Superman had in fact another run-in with Doomsday (apart from the Death of Superman, if that's the one you're referring to), which is called Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, and it's pretty neat, or at least, it was when I read it, when I was 15 or so. In fact, Cyborg makes an appearace in it. The villains I referred to were also kryptonians I think, and Superman killed them using an alternate form of kryptonite to which he was immune. I couldn't tell you in which magazine even if I remembered. I'll have to get a raincheck on that one.

frozenlight

03-14-2005, 05:30 PM

i really lack the patience and time to read all this, but one thing's sure: i like batman ever since i was in primary school, watching cartoons on cartoon network even though i didn't understand much (my english was limited to "this is a dog. that is a cat" at the time), and that's because he doesn't have any super powers, he's just a sad, lonely guy who has been turned into what he is by the kind of vilains he is now fighting. he is more cmplex than superman, his inner torment is deeper (i mean come on, superman's alter ego is unrealistic, he doesn't fit... and all his problems are about winning some girl's love).

subterranean

03-14-2005, 08:14 PM

IMO most heroes are trying to win some gal's love, but too shy to say it forward

crisaor

03-16-2005, 03:25 PM

Scratch heroes. All men try to do that.

subterranean

03-16-2005, 08:42 PM

All men?

Including Elton John???

:D

baddad

03-17-2005, 01:22 AM

Batman; gothic, dark, sinister......and he's the good guy. Intriguing.

Superman; leotards, usually works during the day(in both personas), no hint of any personal faults. Boring.

Jay

03-17-2005, 08:16 PM

Well... if you put it that way... did I just hear 'gothic'? ahem, niiice :D

crisaor

03-18-2005, 03:35 PM

All men?
Including Elton John???
:D
Would you include him in that categorie? :rolleyes:

subterranean

03-21-2005, 06:00 AM

Oh you missed the joke..

Nevermind :)

crisaor

03-21-2005, 10:17 AM

Actually, I didn't. Hence the roll eyes thing. Lame reply, I know.

subterranean

03-21-2005, 08:10 PM

Ok, everytime me and my friends said something like, "ALL MEN like girls", one of us would say, "except Elton John of course"....That's where the joke lies, coz, as you (might) already aware that Elton is GAY. Of course, you can say different popular names, but Elton seems right ...

baddad

03-22-2005, 01:40 AM

Why is Elton John so happy? Why is he gay? Is there a party?

subterranean

03-22-2005, 04:28 AM

ROFLMAO

there's a party alrite...you're welcome to join dad..
And I don't know why...

simon

03-28-2005, 01:33 PM

Elton John, the man of the large multi-coloured glasses. You can't fault a person for being happy though, jealousy is the only obstacle. But he is fricken ridiculous.

And Batman just looks funny with his bat ears. But then who wants to be a goody two shoes like Clark Kent.

baddad

03-29-2005, 02:00 AM

I see that the Man of Steel's fan club is loosing this poll quite badly.........maybe if he didn't wear his pajamas in public he'd present a better persona......

subterranean

03-29-2005, 05:56 AM

Oh public popularity is so shallow for a real hero ;)

faith

03-29-2005, 08:08 AM

I hate them both... But Superman sounds less awfull...

IWilKikU

03-30-2005, 07:14 AM

Does anyone else notice that an alarming amount of super heroes were their undies outside thier tights :eek:!!! Superman and early batman included.

papayahed

03-30-2005, 02:31 PM

Now The Tick......thats a superhero. and not a stitch of underwear showing.

IWilKikU

03-31-2005, 01:00 PM

Spooooooon!!!!!!!

Dumpweed

04-04-2005, 02:27 AM

Superman is flawless and that is what we should aspire to be. He has made the ultimate sacrifice and died for a race that is not his own (eventually resurrected). With his powers he could have considered himself godlike and been a self declared dictator. He is probably the most selfless fictional character ever written. His powers are only used to benefit others and not himself. As Clark Kent he could have cut many corners to get ahead in life, especially in his pursuit of Lois, but he does not. Sure the Dark Knight has appeal with his whole dark gothic thing and having no super human abilities but Superman is the ideal superhero. Besides, Supermans origin is of comsic proportions. He is the last survivor of an alien race arriving to earth on a space ship wrapped in his cape. It just so happens that earth is the only planet where Superman is Superman because he draws his power from earths son, coincidence? Superman was sent to be earths protector. Not to belittle Batman but his origin is from holding a grudge because someone killed his parents. Cliche revenge do gooder plot.

Scheherazade

04-04-2005, 03:20 AM

Hear, hear! ;)

crisaor

04-04-2005, 11:00 AM

Superman is flawless and that is what we should aspire to be. He has made the ultimate sacrifice and died for a race that is not his own (eventually resurrected).
Err, if he's flawless, how could he be killed? It was his murderer the one who was flawless. Now, if you consider a broad definition of what is supposed to be flawless (i.e. not only powers), then he definitely isn't, because despite his powers, he behaves just like any other human being. The same emotions, the same virtues, the same miseries.

Sure the Dark Knight has appeal with his whole dark gothic thing and having no super human abilities but Superman is the ideal superhero. Besides, Supermans origin is of comsic proportions. He is the last survivor of an alien race arriving to earth on a space ship wrapped in his cape. It just so happens that earth is the only planet where Superman is Superman because he draws his power from earths son, coincidence? Superman was sent to be earths protector. Not to belittle Batman but his origin is from holding a grudge because someone killed his parents. Cliche revenge do gooder plot.
I don't think Superman is the ideal superhero. As far as I can tell, Superman stands for the law (remember his encounters with Lex Luthor and how they usually end?), while Batman stands for justice. IMO, law without justice is meaningless. This idea is emphasized on Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, a fine read.
Your take on Batman's origins is not that farfetched, but your take on Superman's is. He wasn't sent to be earth's protector, he simply crashed here. Of course, this differs, as his origin has been told zillions of time (by Siegel/Shuster, Marv wolfman, Karl Kesel, and many others), but that fact remains. Anyway, if you ask me, Superman is probably just another way of portraying an idealized view of the united states, of the so called "american dream". Portrayed as beacon of justice, Superman was a great way to push forward the propaganda that north america stood for liberty, democracy, and all that stuff. He works in the Daily Planet (thus, allegedly representing freedom of speech), where he meets a succesful journalist woman in Lois Lane (showing women's access and exit to jobs); he is the prototipe male, capable of incredible strength and a ridiculous level of naivety; and he's the protector of Metropolis, a single, small city which is supposed to represent the whole country. The comic of Superman shows a set of values and rules and an outlook on life based purely in an occidental capitalist view. The costume he wears, full of colors, makes him very distinguished, very easy to note, and the symbol complements the packed image. A similar analogy can be found in Marvel's Captain America.

IWilKikU

04-04-2005, 04:09 PM

Superman is flawless and that is what we should aspire to be.
Superman, and flawlessness are unattainable. If you aspire to be flawless you will live a life of disappointment.

He is probably the most selfless fictional character ever written. His powers are only used to benefit others and not himself. As Clark Kent he could have cut many corners to get ahead in life, especially in his pursuit of Lois, but he does not.
What about the whole Conduit ordeal? Conduit was a boyhood friend of Clark's and WOULD have been the star athlete, most popular, big-man-on-campus at Smallville high, except Clark was. (Superman #100, I think) And you forget that all along it wasn't Clark that was persuing Lois. All through the late seventies/early eighties Superman was messing around with Wonder Woman. It was Lois who was always love-sick after Superman, not Clark. It wasn't until Man of Steel #1 that Clark came around and starting getting interested in Lois and that quickly blossomed into a relationship. But He didn't have the long pursuit after Lois, like that horrible TV series 'Lois & Clark' portrayed.

Sure the Dark Knight has appeal with his whole dark gothic thing and having no super human abilities but Superman is the ideal superhero. Besides, Supermans origin is of comsic proportions. He is the last survivor of an alien race arriving to earth on a space ship wrapped in his cape. It just so happens that earth is the only planet where Superman is Superman because he draws his power from earths son, coincidence? Superman was sent to be earths protector.
Actually Superman is Super on ALOT of planets, just not on Krypton, which we don't even know for sure because he's never been there, its destroyed, remember? But Superman has used his powers on war-world, and in deep space, through intergalactical wormholes, far far away from earth's sun. That theory is a relic from the Action Comics #1 days. Once DC got more in-depth with Supe's physics etc... they abandoned that idea.

baddad

04-05-2005, 01:27 AM

One must carefully weigh each word expressed in this forum for fear of being taken literally with each. I love that ..............

IWilKikU

04-05-2005, 04:50 AM

One must carefully weigh each word expressed in this forum for fear of being taken literally with each. I love that ..............

If it was good enough for Derrida...

baddad

04-07-2005, 12:44 AM

...Portrayed as beacon of justice, Superman was a great way to push forward the propaganda that north america stood for liberty, democracy, and all that stuff. He works in the Daily Planet (thus, allegedly representing freedom of speech), where he meets a succesful journalist woman in Lois Lane (showing women's access and exit to jobs); he is the prototipe male, capable of incredible strength and a ridiculous level of naivety; and he's the protector of Metropolis, a single, small city which is supposed to represent the whole country. The comic of Superman shows a set of values and rules and an outlook on life based purely in an occidental capitalist view...

Oh yeah!!.....sweeeettt!!!!

subterranean

05-04-2005, 07:42 AM

Superman

I can’t stand to fly
I’m not that naive
I’m just out to find
The better part of me

I’m more than a bird…I’m more than a plane
More than some pretty face beside a train
It’s not easy to be me

Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home I’ll never see

It may sound absurd…but don’t be naive
Even Heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed…but won’t you concede
Even Heroes have the right to dream
It’s not easy to be me

Up, up and away…away from me
It’s all right…You can all sleep sound tonight
I’m not crazy…or anything…

I can’t stand to fly
I’m not that naive
Men weren’t meant to ride
With clouds between their knees

I’m only a man in a silly red sheet
Digging for kryptonite on this one way street
Only a man in a funny red sheet
Looking for special things inside of me

It’s not easy to be me.

Scheherazade

06-07-2005, 09:23 AM

http://iesb.net/newsimages/SupermanBatmanmed.jpg
Batman vs.Superman match still on the cards
Posted on Sat, 4-Jun-2005

"Batman Begins" producer Charles Roven seems pretty certain that one day the chap with the cowl and the dude in tights will team up.

Naturally, says Roven, "Batman vs.Superman" depends on the success of Batman and Superman's first solo missions.

"It all depends on the success of Batman Begins and Superman Returns", he tells IESB, adding that the current script for "Batman vs Superman" is superb.

"Batman Begins" star Christian Bale, who would no doubt be reprising his role as the Caped Crusader in the two-hander, says there might be a few solo missions before the teaming, but ythat it should happen.

"Batman vs.Superman" was the movie Warner Bros. were considering doing inititally - before deciding on solo missions for both characters. Wolfgang Peterson was attached to direct at one point, with everyone from Jude Law to Colin Farrell and John Travolta (yep, Zuko in tights) in the running to play the crimefighters.

One of the many problems in getting the film off the ground was getting two actors locked into the pic. A spokesperson for Christian Bale told us at the time that, "...all rumoured participants have various conditions with regard to casting/money/marketing rights. For example, actor A may choose to do the movie ONLY if actor B is playing opposite him. If B drops out, A has the option to drop out or insist on Actor D, etc. ... Actor C may sign on with a condition that he makes the same dollars as Actor B. If he doesn't get it, he'll walk."

Ultimately, Peterson decided to go off and make "Troy" instead, and "Batman vs.Superman" was shelved.

In "Batman vs.Superman", the Caped Crusader's girlfriend dies and Superman snags the blame. This leads to a conflict between the two crimefighters, not helped by the appearance of both heroes' long-time enemies. from http://www.moviehole.net/news/5727.html

Date: June 4, 2005
Source: IESB
Author: Robert Sanchez

Will we ever get to see Superman square off against Batman in a live action movie? According to Producer Charles Roven "it all depends on the success of Batman Begins and Superman Returns". He also did say that the current script for the project is excellent.

So will Christian Bale and Brandon Routh team up for this "clash of the titans?" Rumors have persisted that both actors contracts have a clause for such option if both franchises end up being successful.

When will this film happen? Christian Bale told the IESB today during the Batman Begins press junket that Superman vs Batman could happen down the line but not as an immediate sequel but instead after a few more Batman solo successes.

This is an early synopsis of Superman vs Batman:

When Bruce Wayne goes out seeking bloody vengeance on the murderer of his new bride, Jennifer. Superman opposes him, fights him to the near death - then it's discovered that the guy behind Jennifer's murder is also this big baddie in Superman's circle and they unite to fight. Warner Bros. has commissioned a script from Andrew Kevin Walker ('Seven') with Wolfgang Petersen ('The Perfect Storm') directing. This is a different project from either Batman 5 or Superman 5. from http://iesb.net/rumors/movies060405.php

poppymontgomery

06-08-2005, 05:23 PM

Batman is more than a man. He's man's ultimate potential fulfilled. Self-taught, self-trained, self-disciplined. The peak human. His is the Will to Power; much more the Nietzschean ideal of the superman than, uh, Superman.

Bongitybongbong

06-08-2005, 06:53 PM

Batman worked for his powers while Superman's came freely.

wanderlust_ox

06-08-2005, 07:39 PM

I'm a fan of both of them. I've read both their comics (not every single compic book, but a few) and all of their movies. But I prefer Batman over Superman. Although Superman has the heroic and unrealistic superpowers that most boys admire, Batman is more realistic, and someone you can relate to. He seems... very passionate.. dark and mysterious, which is more admirable then unrealistic powers. As Bongitybongbong said, he worked for his title, and I personally think hes much sexier :P. Maybe it's because he is a masked man, something about it is very arousing.

strategos

06-08-2005, 07:45 PM

Let's compare the two iconic heroes across the mediums they've broached:

TV:
Batman: The Animated Series (1992) vs. Superman (1988)

No contest here. The original Batman: TAS which aired on FOX in 1992 is widely considered to be one of, if not, THE finest animated series ever to grace television due to a pioneering style of animation coined "Dark Deco" and mature storytelling that was often morose hence appropriately reflecting the dark knight's callous demeanor.

Advantage: Batman

Comics:
The Dark Knight Returns (1986) vs. The Death of Superman (1993)

Frank Miller's take on the dark knight is one of the seminal highlights in comics and one of the few examples noted in justifying the literary merit of this medium. Yes, Sups made an appearance but, make no mistake, this is Bruce's tale through and through.

The Death of Superman was, well, an all-out slugfest.

Advantage: Batman

Movies:

I'm only going to consider the first 2 Bat films which starred Michael Keaton as the last 2 Joel Schumacher abominations are too painful to bring up. With that in mind...

Jack Nicholson (Joker) > Gene Hackman (Lex Luthor)

Advantage: Batman

There you have it folks! Batman takes it by a landslide.

wanderlust_ox

06-08-2005, 07:49 PM

yeah, I have to admit, I didn't like the last 2 Superman movies. The Batman ones are much better. Is anyone going to see the "Batman Begins" movie?

strategos

06-08-2005, 07:55 PM

yeah, I have to admit, I didn't like the last 2 Superman movies. The Batman ones are much better. Is anyone going to see the "Batman Begins" movie?

From what I've read and heard of so far, the latest Batman flick is winner and purported to revitilize the franchise. After the last two films, I don't see how it can dig itself into a deeper hole.

wanderlust_ox

06-09-2005, 08:10 PM

hmm.. I still have mixed feelings about it, and i'm wondering if it's actually worth my time and money.

baddad

06-11-2005, 01:45 AM

....I can't help but smile every time I see this thread revived......it is both too deep and too shallow.........and too funny .........and I stand by my comments as to Crisaor's insights (Re:post # 61)

Nightshade

06-11-2005, 06:38 AM

Ill admit I never read any of the comics but I hated the batman plots in all the films/ cartoons I saw and I like Kent hes a genuinly nice person. Maybe he is meant to represent not to take things at surfface value or that there is a hero in everyone.

actually I didnt really like either My favourate hero has got to be Zorro...
even though batman is a bit like him in that he was a human pretending I could never like Bruce wayne and the villans were just too wierd for me thanks!
:lol: ;)

Mark F.

06-16-2005, 04:48 PM

Batman is better cause he has no super powers or anything. He's just a rich dude who uses his money to keep justice working in his neighbourhood. And what Frank Miller did with the series was excellent.
Anyone seen Batman Begins by the way?

chmpman

06-30-2005, 02:26 AM

Frankly I hate Superman. He has whatever powers he can desire (it seems to me) but never uses them to their quickest and most efficient potential. By the way, myself being a Spiderman fan, I am slightly offended by his exclusion from the choices present. Anyone agree?

scruffy_danny

07-01-2005, 01:13 PM

By the way, myself being a Spiderman fan, I am slightly offended by his exclusion from the choices present. Anyone agree?

Nah, Superman's the best!!! His costume is really outstanding.

~K~

07-01-2005, 09:44 PM

DC or Marvel does any one like to read comics from both companies?

bestseller

07-01-2005, 10:27 PM

Batman. He rocks it out. His balls...he carries them with construction equipment. Superman has all the sack of a deflated water ballon.

blueeyes

09-01-2005, 10:26 PM

batman i like that black leather :-) but i think George Clooney was the best..

Pendragon

09-05-2005, 08:06 AM

Has to be The Batman. Anyone can fight crime if they have superstrength and are invernable, but with no superpowers, only your own trained body and mind, and the gadgets you've created? That's guts! Besides, Bruce is always on the psychotic edge, adding a dark side to Batman, and a bit of a "lone wolf." He will help The Justice League only if it suits him.

subterranean

09-05-2005, 08:01 PM

I don't know..but I see Keaton more suitable ;)

batman i like that black leather :-) but i think George Clooney was the best..

B-Mental

09-14-2005, 12:35 PM

I was always a Marvel fan growing up. Superman and Batman were ruined for me in my youth with the original cover art not to mention cheesy bat show. Eventually I crossed over to see light. Batman of the 90's through today hands down. I'm talking the batman of the comics, not the movies. Sorry Supey.

blueeyes

09-22-2005, 10:14 PM

YellowCrayola

09-23-2005, 01:17 AM

I adored the Batman cartoons when I was young. I grew out of the characters long ago, but I still manage to watch some movies here and then. Heh.

Zippy

09-24-2005, 08:15 AM

I like both characters, but Batman wins. He's had to work hard to become the best at what he does, whereas Superman was just born powerful. Superman's almost invulnerable, indestructable - where's the fun in that? We want flawed characters that are out there risking their necks.

I love the darkness that's associated with Batman, if anything I think it could be darker. Absolutely loved Alan Moore's The Killing Joke and Miller's Dark Knight Returns .

Only one criticism of the characters - underwear on the outside of their costumes!? In this day and age!? Surely it's time for DC to (ehem) remove their underwear.

I wonder if anyone's read any of the early Authority comics? They've got a twisted version of Superman and Batman (called Apollo and Midnighter) that do all the things that DC are not allowed to do. It makes excellent reading.

RobinHood3000

11-30-2005, 10:14 PM

I suppose it's no secret who my favorite superhero is (hint: look to the far <-- left), but between the two, I prefer Superman. Batman is so painfully overrated by the masses, referred to by comic book rookies as "the only one without superpowers," which annoys me to no end. Batman is cool, no doubt about it, so it's nothing personal, but he's seriously two steps away from being as psychotic as the people he fights. Superman is THE Boy Scout, fighting for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way." Sure, it's annoying, and the underwear grates on the nerves once in a while, but as seen in the Death of- and Return of Superman story arcs, people draw so much inspiration from Superman that he is literally an icon (no, seriously--there are people worshipping him). He inspires hope, while Batman can only instill fear. Batman does win extra points for Coolest Car but loses points for Running Through Young Wards Faster Than Michael Jackson.

Green Arrow still kicks all of their butts. :cool:

Nightshade

12-01-2005, 07:00 AM

Robin hood is not a super hero Robin hood is a REAL life hero-ish I suppose anyway he doesnt have great thingmabobs or amazing superpowers , same reason I can say Zorro is a superhero.

:D

RobinHood3000

12-01-2005, 03:51 PM

You misunderstand. My avatar is not Robin Hood, but Green Arrow I/Oliver Queen, of DC Comics semi-fame. First non-charter member of the Justice League, Green Arrow began as a Batman clone (billionaire who suffers a serious loss and goes vigilante, complete with Arrow-Car, Arrow-Plane, and Arrow-Signal), he eventually received a major makeover and developed a) a personality, and b) a sense of humor. As it stands, he's an ultra-liberal cynic with a weakness for women who gave his life to save Metropolis, was resurrected by his friend/traveling buddy Hal Jordan/Green Lantern, and now serves from time to time in the Justice League with son Green Arrow II/Connor Hawke, former young ward Arsenal/Roy Harper (formerly known as Speedy), and lover Black Canary II/Dinah Lance. Any comic book geeks out there, please correct me if I mix something up or omit anything major.

Understandable mix-up,though--if memory serves, Green Arrow is a direct descendant.

vaughanj

12-01-2005, 05:24 PM

For me I think Superman is way cooler because he has real powers not just lame objects that help him. Batman has to get his stuff from other people, superman was born with the super human powers. He is way cooler.

starrwriter

12-01-2005, 06:12 PM

I vote for Superman. When I was a small kid, I had delusions that I was Superboy with magical powers his parents had to keep secret. Then I fell out of a tree and realized I couldn't fly. Good thing I wasn't on a cliff.

Scheherazade

12-01-2005, 06:16 PM

Mortis Anarchy

12-01-2005, 07:40 PM

BATMAN! I've loved comics and cartoons since I was a kid. At night, I used to dress up in different costumes and stalk the night in my house when everyone was asleep. I always felt like a shadow or a ninja. Actually I am a ninja...

emily655321

12-01-2005, 07:49 PM

I can't claim to hold much interest in comic book heroes. I haven't even seen any of the Batman OR Superman movies. But pressed to choose, I vote Batman over Superman anyday, because, as RH aptly oberves, he's not a boyscout. And the no superpowers thing. He's just a creepy guy who runs around in his underwear and mask. I'll bet he takes his cat to the grocery store, too. ;)

Pendejo5-6

12-01-2005, 09:04 PM

Super Man takes the floor for me. He can fly withOUT a grappling hook, he doesn't use any sissy toys (like the batter-ang), and, logistically speaking, Super Man can break Bat Man in half like a twig. And to top it all off, Super Man can melt things with his eyes! HIS EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banana:

starrwriter

12-01-2005, 09:29 PM

Half wolf, half goat and the Superboy???
Like the poet Walt Whitman, I am a multitude in one man.

Connor

12-02-2005, 01:37 AM

superman is better

Krin

12-02-2005, 01:45 AM

Batman for sure!!! He actually had to work for his powers, unlike that bum superman. When it comes to true, inner strength, batman takes the cake!

DaniS

12-02-2005, 02:14 PM

Easily, I would say Superman. Can't believe it's even up for discussion... Superman dude. I am WonderWoman, so we're partners. We go together like banana and peanut butter.
Thanks,
Wonder Woman

HMFIC

12-02-2005, 02:29 PM

I have to say that Batman is a very smart person who put superman's intelligence to shame. Superman is like a jock who is to cocky because only kryptonite can hurt him. I have to go with Batman because he is smart and not cocky about his :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :goof: :rage: :rage: :

Scheherazade

06-21-2006, 01:58 PM

The first reviews for Superman Returns have given the new movie, which stars newcomer Brandon Routh as the legendary superhero, a resounding thumbs up. Variety magazine's critic said it was "grandly conceived, sensitively drawn [and] never self-consciously hip".

"It is sincere, with an artistic elegance and a genuine emotional investment in the material," he wrote.

The Hollywood Reporter, meanwhile, saluted "a heartfelt Superman movie that plays to a broad audience".

Routh, it continued, plays the comic book character "with honesty [and] winning fortitude".

And Newsweek's David Ansen wrote: "From the start of this gorgeously crafted epic, you can feel that Singer has real love and respect for the most foursquare comics superhero of them all.

"Newcomer Routh may or may not be a real actor, but he effortlessly lays claim to the iconic role."

His comments were echoed by Harry Knowles on the Ain't It Cool News website, who described Superman Returns as "the film I was hoping and dreaming for".

"Just as Batman Begins relaunched an ailing Batman, it sends Superman into the stratosphere," he wrote.

The film - which stars Kevin Spacey as Lex Luthor and Kate Bosworth as Lois Lane - is released in the US on 28 June and in the UK on 14 July.

It is the Man of Steel's first big-screen appearance since 1987's Superman IV: The Quest for Peace starring the late Christopher Reeve.

Singer's previous films have included The Usual Suspects and the first two instalments in the X-Men franchise. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5095436.stm

You can also watch the trailer at the above link.

grace86

06-21-2006, 03:02 PM

Hmm...in the search for the perfect guy, I could totally turn this choice into a philosophical battle. Superman or Batman? Superman is always a round about awesome good guy. But I think I have to go with Batman. While both obviously fight for good...I like Batman's way of fighting for good more.

Scheherazade

06-22-2006, 04:52 PM

The release of Superman Returns marks a new chapter in the legendary superhero's remarkable career. But what is the secret behind his lasting popularity?

Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Oh, and able to leap tall buildings with a single bound.

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Superman, the world's most durable superhero.

After almost 70 years of fighting for truth, justice and the American way, the Man of Steel makes his big screen comeback this summer.

In a way, of course, he has never been away, his enduring appeal evident in the wealth of comic books, TV series, films and cartoons in which he has appeared.

You would have to live in a Fortress of Solitude not to know of Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel's creation, who made his debut in the first edition of Action Comics in 1938.

And though one would need Lex Luthor's brain to keep track of his history, that iconic letter S remains as instantly identifiable as ever.

'Appealing fantasy'

Anita O'Brien, curator of the Cartoon Museum in London, attributes Superman's success in the US to his status as an outsider.

"The fact he comes from another planet chimes very well with the American way and its experience of being a country of immigrants," she told the BBC News website.

But US comics critic Danny Fingeroth sees a resonance that reaches beyond America.

"The thing that's most appealing about superheroes is the idea of someone who has great power and knows how to use it wisely.

"If you think of the time Superman emerged from, with the rise of Fascism in Europe and a world still in the throes of the Great Depression, you can see it would be an appealing fantasy."

While other staples like Batman and the X-Men are often presented as flawed or damaged, Superman offers a more idealised vision of the superhero model.

"It's different with Superman," says Ms O'Brien. "He has that possibility of being an Everyman, raised to a higher level."

'Everyone's property'

Some have made connections with the notion of the 'Ubermensch' or 'Overman', explored by German writer Friedrich Nietzsche in his philosophical work Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

But the fact his creators were Jewish and that his birth name, Kal-El, resembles the Hebrew words for "voice of God", has led others to see a religious dimension.

The infant Superman's expulsion from Krypton moments before its destruction is often compared to the Moses story.

The 1977 film has clear parallels to Christian beliefs, with Jor-El (played by Marlon Brando) sending "his only son... to show the way" to mankind.

Mr Fingeroth, author of the upcoming Disguised as Clark Kent: Jews, Comics and the Creation of the Superhero, admits the Superman myth has "echoes of religious lore".

"Yet it's the fact it is not directly associated with any one religion or belief system that makes it so universal," he says.

"Once something is sent into the world, it then becomes everyone's property.

"That's the beauty of Superman: everyone can take solace and inspiration from the character."

Both Mr Fingeroth and Ms O'Brien highlight the duality between Superman and his "mild-mannered" alter-ego Clark Kent.

"People like the idea of someone who seems ordinary and is ignored, being able to transform themselves," says Ms O'Brien.

"It's the idea of 'If they only knew the real me'," adds Mr Fingeroth.

"If only we were not hampered by the part of us who has to be Clark Kent, people would know and respect and admire us." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5061032.stm

Woland

07-05-2006, 07:07 PM

The Man of Steel, but one has to feel sorry for Jimmy Olsen...

Well, I dont think I can handle this
A cloudy day in metropolis
I think I'll talk to my analyst
I got it so bad for this little journalist
It drives me up the wall and through the roof
Lois and Clark in a telephone booth
I think Im going out of my brain
I got it so bad for little miss Lois Lane

Lois Lane please put me in your plan
Yeah, Lois Lane you dont need no super man
Come on downtown and stay with me tonight
I got a pocket full of kryptonite

Hes leaping buildings in a single bound
Im reading Shakespeare at my place downtown
Come on downtown and make love to me
Im Jimmy Olsen not a titan, you see
Hes faster than a bullet, stronger than a train
Hes the one who got lucky got his cape around miss Lois Lane
I cant believe my dilemma is real
Im competing with the Man of Steel

_ Spin Doctors

smoothherb

07-05-2006, 10:53 PM

Superman is the Michael Jordan of superheros batman is charles barkley.

Scheherazade

07-28-2006, 11:48 AM

Warning: This story contains plot spoilers

Is the Superman Returns movie meant to remind us of the Bible? And if so, is it blasphemy?

Well here's the story.

An all-powerful father sends his son to Earth to save mankind by showing them the "light". The son is able to perform miracles. He "dies" and is born again.

Sound familiar? It might do, it's the plot of the new movie Superman Returns. And in the blogs and internet forums there has been a maelstrom of debate on the parallels between Superman and Jesus Christ.

Superman has a long history of Judaeo-Christian symbols, but this time the film's makers have taken it to a new level.

CHRISTIAN ECHOES?
Stabbed in side with Kryptonite - like Jesus stabbed with spear
Empty hospital room - empty tomb of Jesus
Falls to Earth, arms outstretched - Crucifixion-like
Cradled in mother's arms - like Michelangelo's Pieta
Superman says world needs saviour
Superman's five years in space echoes the Ascension
Shown with weight of world/sin on shoulders

• At one point Superman falls towards the Earth in a pose that vaguely echoes the Crucifixion.

• He is stabbed in his side with Kryptonite in an echo of the stabbing of Jesus by a Roman soldier.

• A female nurse rushes into the hospital room to find it empty just as Jesus tomb was found to be empty by female followers.

And there are Christians in the US who believe that the symbolism is now sufficiently obvious that the film can be incorporated into religious teaching.

Stephen Skelton is the author of the Gospel According to the World's Greatest Superhero and has prepared guidance for pastors wanting to use Superman Returns in their sermons.

Sex and violence

"You would have to be blind to miss what they are doing in terms of the Christ imagery," says Mr Skelton, a Christian with a background in showbusiness, "there is a big foot in the door."

American churches have not generally been well-disposed towards Hollywood, with its laissez-faire attitude towards sex and violence. But the West Coast Babylon has recently offered two films which have been manna to churches, The Passion of the Christ, and the Chronicles of Narnia.

Some more traditional churchgoers may be under-whelmed by the use of movies to sell the Gospels, but Mr Skelton is unrepentant.

"That is a modern idea that we are somehow dumbing down the Gospels. This has a huge biblical precedent. In Acts 17:28 Paul quotes from a hymn to Zeus. He is using a pagan deity... the least we can do is take a second glance at Superman.

As well as the imagery, there is plenty in the dialogue. Superman refers to himself as a saviour, while baddie Lex Luthor talks about the man with his pants on the outside as a God.

Average cinemagoer

The film borrows Superman's father's speech from the first movie and gives it a prominent place, with Marlon Brando intoning: "They [mankind] only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you, my only son."

But as far as the imagery goes, what is "blatant" for those with a background in Christianity, comics, art or criticism, may be a little more opaque for the average cinemagoer.

Mr Skelton says director Bryan Singer told him the scene where Superman's adoptive mother cradles him in her arms at the start of the film is a deliberate echo of images from the Renaissance of the Virgin Mary and the dying Christ such as Michelangelo's Pieta.

But it is easy to find oneself wondering whether there isn't a note of blasphemy in the film. If Superman is so clearly meant to be Jesus, why is he making goo-goo eyes at Lois Lane, who has found a long-term partner in the hero's five-year absence from the planet.

"One or two voices have said something - how can we see Superman as a Christ figure when he is fooling around with Lois Lane when she is committed to another person. That simply comes from pushing the parallel too far," Mr Skelton explains.

And Mervyn Roberts, a broadcaster and Anglican vicar, says although he has not seen the movie it is unlikely to be blasphemous or be difficult for a Church that has largely shrugged off the Da Vinci Code.

"The truth of the Gospel will come through. Superman is very much a kind of iconic image of the saviour figure that is seen throughout history.

"So the Superman movie, unless it specifically makes references to Jesus Christ in a negative sense, a direct insult to the person of Christ, identified an insult against God, it is just putting through that image."

'Gritty' gospels

But there are going to be plenty of Christians who do not find their hearts warmed by the use of religious imagery in a blockbuster. Superman hardly comes to Earth with an amazing message, and Jesus's purpose was not preventing man-made earthquakes.

Giles Fraser, parish vicar at Putney in London, says it was one thing to use the film to draw children into the Church by glossing over the "incredibly gritty" nature of the Gospels, but quite another to do it with adults.

"Using it as evangelism for adults is completely ridiculous. It is making Christianity into this rather wholesome nicely, nicely affirmation of American values, the morphing of Jesus into the American hero."

JEWISH LINKS
Both creators were Jewish
Superman and father's name sound Hebrew
Parable of Moses evoked
Condemned by Nazis
Story of immigration/assimilation

The black and white image of good and evil was not compatible with orthodox Christianity, Mr Fraser says.

And for all the Christian symbolism, it might be the case that there is no one religion that lay claim to the Man of Steel. Rabbi Simcha Weinstein has written a work, Up, Up and Oy Vey about the massive Jewish influence on the comic book industry particularly in its early years.

Many have noted that as well as being created by two Jewish authors, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, Superman and his father's Kryptonian names both end in the Hebrew name for God, Kal-El and Jor-El, and that Superman's departure from Krypton can be taken as an echo of the story of Moses' childhood.

The Nazis went out of their way to condemn Superman, with Goebbels writing a polemic in April 1940 in Das Schwarze Korps, an SS newspaper.

Viewer's discretion

And even the Buddhists are getting in on the act. An article on the Buddhist Channel compares Superman to a Bodhisattva, "a great being who aspires to unconditionally help all beings be free from any suffering".

Danny Fingeroth, author of Clark Kent in Disguise: Jews, Comics and the Creation of the Superhero, says there is a certain inevitability to the reading of religious references into superheroes.

BUDDHIST PARALLELS
Meditates above Earth
Draws on Guanyin Bodhisattva
Has gone on soul-search
Distracted by worldly love

"While they have loaded the Superman movie with Christian imagery and dialogue it is still at the discretion of the viewer to see it that way.

"There is religious imagery because of the very nature of the superhero mythology - somebody with great powers who uses them to do the right thing.

"One of the appealing things is that while they may remind us of certain religious figures or ideas the fact that they are not of any one religion is what has allowed them to be embraced around the world.

"And if you like Superman rather than Batman it is unlikely you will get into an argument with someone and end up dead."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5223302.stm

Idril

07-28-2006, 03:58 PM

I hate stuff like that, why do we feel the need to read religion in absolutely everything? He's just a superhero, created from someone's imagination. Not everything needs to have religious significance, sometimes it's just for fun and entertainment. And as far as the comment Singer made about re-creating Michelangelo's Pieta, I think of that as just an artistic choice, that picture resonates with a lot of people, it's a famous piece of art and it will make people take notice but I don't think he's actually trying to make Superman into Christ.

Maida

09-06-2006, 06:29 PM

Superman all the way! He's got it all, super hero powers (not little tools), he's a journalist, he's good looking, he comes from SPACE and he only has one weakness! he's the man.

holograph

09-06-2006, 07:16 PM

Batman. Because he wasn't just born with infinite (;) to rob) superpowers and because he lives underground, which is cool. i find superman to be pretentious.

subterranean

09-06-2006, 08:17 PM

subterranean,
To be without some of the things you want is an indispensable part of happines -Betrand Russel
we can't always have what we want, I know i won't have what i want. i have wished for the same thing everytime i throw a penny in the fountain.
So do you like batman beyond? I do.

they are secrets for a reason, if they are told are they still a secret? ;-)

I missed your reply and I'm not sure whether you'll be back and check out my so late reply :).

But still, I have to stick to my first opinion that Keaton is the best Batman :nod:

Idril

09-06-2006, 08:34 PM

But still, I have to stick to my first opinion that Keaton is the best Batman :nod:

I agree with you there. Christian Bale isn't bad, I can live with him but no one can quite live up to Michael Keaton's portrayal. He was the perfect balance between the serious and the camp. Bale's Batman/Bruce Wayne takes himself so seriously and it's so rooted in reality that some of the fantastical elements seem jarring. Don't get me wrong, I liked this last Batman movie and I'm happy to see the francise return but I still prefer Keaton.

Kelly_Sprout

09-07-2006, 01:16 AM

Not with the dark side, with the resistance to it. Batman could've taken the fall any minute, taking his revenge way far (think of the Punisher, for instance), but he never did. He deals with it every night, and comes home unchanged in his resolve.

My vote goes to Batman because of his dark side, but I see his dark side in a very different way than what I've quoted (above). Batman's dark side is that he IS Batman because he is driven by a desire for revenge.

He doesn't thirst for wealth (in his real life, wealth abounds and he doesn't even care). He spurns the Bruce Wayne side of himself. He doesn't reinvest his money into his business. He doesn't become a philanthropist and give it to worthy causes. He spends it on his toys, his inventions, his true purpose: revenge!

He doesn't thirst for power, either. If he did, he is good looking enough, eloquent enough, persuasive enough, and wealthy enough to buy the Presidency or anything else of power he might desire. He could be the Kennedys if he wanted. He rejects it for the solitary, hidden life of a vigilante.

His thirst is for revenge. And when he is up against it, the temptation to exact that revenge is so strong that he almost gives in to it time and again. He must hold himself back, in check, and force himself to take his advisary into custody instead of killing him/her/them. The villians know this and see it as his fatal flaw. They frequently take hostages for the express purpose of damning them to destruction and forcing Batman to choose between rescuing them and losing his prey or following the prey and letting the victims perish. And while he always chooses the rescue, there are many times that the choice is painfully difficult for him because his own dark side wants to take over.

Batman is Darth Vader in a looking glass. Costumed, masked, unknown and unknowable, harnessing powers that are not his, but resisting the dark side instead of succumbing to it. He knows however that if he ever did, if revenge were to win the inner war within himself, that Batman would cease to exist. Both the purpose for being Batman (thirst for revenge now slaked) and the image of what Batman stands for (justice; preventing innocents from the suffering and pain that occurs when someone -- anyone -- including villians -- is killed) evaporate in a whiff of smoke with no one left but the Bruce Wayne he has sought all his life to escape from.

This pathos of his soul is what makes him the more interesting and mysterious character. He is what we all are: good only to the extent that we hold ourselves in check from doing evil. That he is ABLE to continue to do this, with such greater temptation to slide over because of the ease with which his toys and gadgets would enable it, is what makes him a hero to the rest of us. Maybe, if he can do it, with his challenges, then I can do it too with my challenges.

Besides, my parents named me (for real!) Bruce Wayne... 13 years after the first DC Comic's Batman came out in the fall of 1939.

Virgil

09-07-2006, 06:47 AM

This pathos of his soul is what makes him the more interesting and mysterious character. He is what we all are: good only to the extent that we hold ourselves in check from doing evil. That he is ABLE to continue to do this, with such greater temptation to slide over because of the ease with which his toys and gadgets would enable it, is what makes him a hero to the rest of us. Maybe, if he can do it, with his challenges, then I can do it too with my challenges.

Besides, my parents named me (for real!) Bruce Wayne... 13 years after the first DC Comic's Batman came out in the fall of 1939.

Kelly you say it best. I like Batman for the same reasons. So your real name is Bruce Wayne?

Kelly_Sprout

09-07-2006, 07:44 AM

Well, Wayne is my middle name, not my last name, but yes! I've used "Batman" as a nickname quite often.

inDeniaL

09-08-2006, 05:42 AM

i remain batman 4ever! nobody can replace the legend of batman:thumbs_up .... its a legend to me...the dark knight of gotham city.... bruce wayne..too handsome

beautiful_alma

02-15-2007, 10:08 PM

i'd of course say Batmannnn~ he just seems so much cooler! he doesnt have super powers, only a utility belt...i guess he's just more realistic than superman.. and plus.. he has the batmobile~ ^^

animeangel46

02-15-2007, 10:17 PM

batman definitely. He doesnt need super powers to be awesome, :D

Thatch

02-16-2007, 03:40 AM

I voted for Batman, although I like Superman. Why? Others said it well. Superman, in a way, is like Jesus. The perfect person. Batman could be any of us. Just an average Joe with a feeling for justice and the guts to do something about it. You can do something. Maybe you can't fly faster than a bullet, but by the end of the day you know you did something and maybe someone else will appreciate your efforts. Certainly allows you to sleep with a good conscience.

RobinHood3000

02-18-2007, 06:12 PM

Brigitte

06-24-2007, 01:59 AM

GAAHHH!! :eek: :rage:

Batman is in no way average, normal, or unpowered!!

What average Joe is insanely rich, hyper-intelligent, knows the essence of half the martial arts on the planet, and has a perfect understanding of the criminal psyche? Batman has powers!

Agreed, but I rather like how suave and riiiich Bruce Wayne is. ;] And yahh, he's mastered REAL martial arts. Superman is just... you know an alien. And c'mon, he only wears glasses to disguise himself. People from his city must be dense. It reminds me of "La Bea Mas Fea" (the Spanish Ugly Betty). Like helloooo don't you know it's them?

Stieg

06-24-2007, 03:34 AM

Batman - simply more darker, full of internal struggles against succumbing to the darker aspects of human nature, and he is afterall HUMAN.

And his enemies are a psychotherapist's wet dream!

Reccura

06-24-2007, 03:36 AM

SUPERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm quite annoyed with Batman, eh. Damnit, a lot of people voted for him! I think of Batman... kinda cliche... But when I say Superman it's Smallville.... okay? Tom Welling or Brandon Routh...

Laughablefellow

01-09-2008, 10:58 AM

Ok, some of you are thinking "what??? This is a LITERATURE forum. We have no room for comic-strip super heroes here!" Well, to you I say "Cursed be he (or she) that thinks graphic novels arn't literature!" And also "Bite my bag, you!" So on to the debate!

100% agree that graphic novels are a completely valid form of Literature! So much so that I applied to write my dissertation on them, I even got the proposal accepted but then the only lecturer who came close to being a specialist decided to take "research leave" and I had to switch to a second choice option about Shakespeare. Some graphic novels have amazingly profound messages, religious (Ross Kingdom Come), political (Moore V for Vendetta and psychological (Morrison's Arkham Assylum). Just 'cos it's got pictures doesnt mean it's not capable of depth, brilliant prose or just being damn entertaining.

As for the debate: Superman has an amazing attraction - being able to fly, being invulnerable, faster than a speeding bullet. I think Supes is who everyone wants to be, but Batman is just such a better character, he's the comic book Sherlock Holmes, the greatest detective on Earth, a genius, a martial arts expert and boy does he have issues. He's got a lot more depth than Superman and his at times ambiguous morality make his stories (75%) of the time the better ones, for example: Frank Miller's Dark Knight stories, the Hush series, aformentioned Arkham Assylum, he's also a great character in Kingdom Come and of course Moor's Killing Joke. Can't wait for the new film btw!

Bakiryu

01-09-2008, 06:02 PM

Batman is way better than superman. he's human in first place and yet he's able to do all that amazing stuff. plus, he's so dark and brooding!

Remarkable

01-11-2008, 08:08 AM

Batman had always a kind of magic on me.He attracted me a lot(still does)and I felt close to him in a way.Most of all,because he is true.He is not the incarnation of pity and goodnes,but also not a cold-blodded criminal.We,after all,have a part of Batman in us.

amalia1985

01-11-2008, 09:26 AM

BATMAN to the bones!!!
What could be better than Christian Bale....

LadyWentworth

01-11-2008, 06:18 PM

BATMAN to the bones!!!What could be better than Christian Bale....Oh, you and your Christian Bale! ;)

As much as I love Batman, I still prefer Superman. I honestly never really could figure out why. When I was a kid I wanted everything to be Superman. I just always liked him so much better. Maybe it was because I thought Christopher Reeve was cute as Clark Kent! :p

Still, though, going for the actual comic, I preferred to read about Superman's heroics over Batman. I will say, though, that Batman always had the better villains! But I suppose whose villains were better is a completely different topic all together. :)

By the way, 189 days until "The Dark Knight"! :D

RobinHood3000

01-18-2008, 02:44 AM

Brooding, brooding, all he does is brood. Green Arrow has a LIFE.

pussnboots

01-18-2008, 03:03 PM

Superman is my man. He can leap tall buildings in a single bound, I can't remember the rest. He didn't use any gadgets to catch the bad people. Althiugh I thought the batmobile was cool.

RobinHood3000

01-18-2008, 03:40 PM

Look!

Up in the sky!

It's a bird! It's a plane! It's...SUPERMAN!!

Faster than a speeding bullet!! Stronger than a locomotive!! Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!! Able to wear red underwear and not have his masculinity questioned!! THE MAN OF STEEL!!

Well, something like that.

pussnboots

01-18-2008, 03:48 PM

In response to being able to wear red underwear and not have his masculinity questioned, I must say the original superman(George Reeves) looked pretty darn good in those tights.

cquirke

09-07-2008, 08:45 PM

Ok, some of you are thinking "what??? This is a LITERATURE forum. We have no room for comic-strip super heroes here!"

Frustrating poll, because for me, "comics" didn't stop there. My fave comic is The Watchmen, and I'd love to see a similar poll between Dr Manhatten and Rorsarch (sp?)...

The Dark Knight takes it for me. He has a sinister dark side which makes him more realistic as a person

Hmm... you'll loooove The Watchmen :-)

Unlike most post-"comic" graphic novels, The Watchmen doesn't try to distance itself from the "pulp super-hero" generation - instead, in embraces the concepts and artwork (even paying homage to pre-superhero "pirate" comics) and takes them further, putting really dark and warty flesh on the bones. Don't expect it to be a quick one-off read, though - it rewards all the attention you can pay.

MorpheusSandman

09-07-2008, 10:05 PM

Batman has far more potential for depth and complexity. I rather like the psychoanalytical interpretation of Batman's world that all the villains are drawn from his own psychosis (The Joker being the purest form of that).

book_jones

09-09-2008, 09:04 PM

I've always been a Marvel Comics guy, but I went with Batman because he has a more interesting and versatile story. He has been effective both as a comedic figure and as a deadly serious psychological character.

Christophe

09-19-2008, 12:41 AM

For me, it's simple. Batman because he is flawed.

clumsy angelle

09-19-2008, 01:45 AM

I like Batman more than Superman because he is more humane and real...

princesspoppi

09-19-2008, 06:53 AM

Definitely Batman, there is something just so cheesy and lame about Superman...and really, undies on the outside - *shakes head*

Scheherazade

10-01-2008, 11:21 AM

Superman fans have helped save the US house where the action hero was created by raising $100,000 (£56,000) in an online auction.

Memorabilia and a walk-on role in the hit TV show Heroes was sold as part of the month-long sale to repair the dilapidated house in Cleveland, Ohio.

The building was where writer Jerry Siegel and artist Joe Shuster created the character more than 70 years ago.

Organiser Brad Meltzer called the sale a "humbling spectacular project".

...

He added: "We're all Clark Kent. We all know what it is like to be boring and ordinary and we all want to be able to rip open our shirt and do something beyond ourselves.

"That's what happened here. Ordinary people made a difference." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7645708.stm

librarius_qui

11-08-2008, 10:16 PM

There are things I don't like in Superman
but there are things I don't like in Batman either.

I didn't vote, but if I had to pick one, I'd choose Batman. It's ... black, at least. I like this black knight idea ... It's more medievalic.

But none of'em.

a klicky
:crash:

badbadman

02-05-2009, 12:43 PM

Batman, has to be, he's not superhuman with super powers, just a man who uses his assets for the common good. We can all be a bit like him. (And he always was my favorite from childhood anyway)

Wilde woman

02-05-2009, 05:55 PM

Batman has such a compelling story. To me, he seems far more human than Superman, disregarding the fact that Superman is an alien. I find I can relate much more to Batman's mission than to Superman's.

balehead

09-23-2009, 10:16 PM

--- Christian Bale :P

Desolation

09-23-2009, 11:09 PM

Of those two, definitely Batman.

But the Green Lantern(/Hal Jordan) has always been my favorite superhero.

bluosean

09-24-2009, 03:15 AM

Superman is getting murdered in the polls. STOP VOTING FOR BATMAN. Superman is better. Spiderman is cool too though, perhaps he should be added to the poll to give someone besides Batman a chance. At least make things interesting.

higley

09-24-2009, 03:20 AM

Batman! Both characters have had their campy streaks but overall I just enjoy Batsy better. As others have stated, he is admirable in that he achieves everything through ingenuity and effort.

Sorry bluosean!

dfloyd

09-24-2009, 12:58 PM

That's about the age I quit reading this stuff and started on Dickens and Fenimore Cooper.

kingoflombards

09-24-2009, 10:06 PM

I bite my thumb at thee!!! You can hardly say that comics have not had a revolutionary impact on todays literature and culture. Besides, that is beyond the point. The point of this poll is to check which character, Batman or Superman, is a favorite amongst comic fans, not for everyone and anyone to share their opinion on whether comics are childish or not.

Okay, now that I'm done exploding on the least vicious comment on how comics are childish, I can get to what I think of Batman and Superman. I think that Batman is a far superior character to Superman in the respect that without superpowers, it allows his character to develop more. As in, it is easier to relate to a regular guy doing crazy action sequences and mysteries than some super dude who can solve it in a second.

higley

09-27-2009, 04:59 PM

That's about the age I quit reading this stuff and started on Dickens and Fenimore Cooper.

The comic adaptations? ;)

soundofmusic

09-27-2009, 07:21 PM

:ladysman: Batman, the cool kind of James Bondy rich guy who has money, knows art, has social skills, eats with his mouth closed, has the ladies all over him; but, never quite allows himself to be truly possessed:angel: Suddenly, there's a call to action and he slips away:cool:and saves Gotham. :banana:

Odysseus93

10-12-2009, 05:56 AM

Batman wins hands down for me. He has a dark side, and he doesn't need freakin super powers to beat the bad guys! I mean, can anyone think of some super power that Superman doesn't have??? And he's such a sickeningly sweet all american boy too!!!:rage: (excuse me while i retch)

Scheherazade

10-12-2009, 06:22 AM

The number of misguided people is breaking my heart! :(

No wonder the world is in the state it is in...

soundofmusic

10-12-2009, 12:48 PM

The number of misguided people is breaking my heart! :(

No wonder the world is in the state it is in...

Just a note: did you notice in the old series, Clark Kent ripped off his shirt; later in the more practical, green-wise years, the new superman always carried a little bag with his clothes in them.:lol:

Heathcliff

12-30-2009, 03:51 AM

Batman has a black suit and ears. I think that creating those gadgets seem pretty awesome.
Superman isn't totally human, he is an ALIEN!!
I like Batman, he's more emotional.

Maryd.

12-30-2009, 04:59 AM

No, no, Superman is the best... I mean have you ever met a super hero that looked perfect with or without his suit. Plus superman flies around, he can pick you up and whisp you away, like a butterfly. Plus Batman needs Robin to help him... Superman does everything on his own.

Heathcliff

12-30-2009, 11:20 PM

No, no, no. Batman was smarter. Superman was born awesome, Batman knew how to work hard to achieve something. Batman is alright without the suit. Actually, that is a matter of opinion anyway.

DisPater

12-31-2009, 05:55 PM

Superman is the greatest superhero of all time, but he has superpowers. Batman is a normal man, wearing a black costume. He doesn't have superpowers, he has gadgets, so he is smart. Superman can turn back time flying around the Earth, but Batman is a normal human being. Superman can be killed only with kryptonite, Batman can be killed with any weapon.
So, I say Batman (the classic Batman - Tim Burton's)

Heathcliff

01-01-2010, 12:49 AM

Pryderi Agni

01-01-2010, 03:28 AM

Batman, because we like our heroes to be as like us as possible, please.

Maryd.

01-01-2010, 06:37 AM

No, no, Superman. Because he is super in everything.

Heathcliff

01-01-2010, 10:23 PM

Nonesense, Mother, dear. You've got to appreciate a little advanced weaponry and design. Batman made himself awesome, Superman was just lucky. So far batman is winning the poll, CHAMPION!!

PeeSlowlyAndSee

01-26-2010, 10:24 PM

Pfft, no contest.
Superman.

Maryd.

01-26-2010, 10:37 PM

Pfft, no contest.
Superman.

Yay, someone on my side... Love the Super in Superman.;)

PeeSlowlyAndSee

01-26-2010, 10:44 PM

Exactly.
Superman is actually a superhero.
Batman is just a rich creep.
Rich creeps =/= super.

Maryd.

01-26-2010, 10:47 PM

Yes, and Batman wants to be super, so invents stupid machines... Superman doesn't need to invent anything... He has everything hidden mysteriously inside himself... There is nothing more invigorating than a man with inner strength.

PeeSlowlyAndSee

01-26-2010, 10:51 PM

Agreed 100%.

Maryd.

01-26-2010, 10:58 PM

Now this is refreshing. Someone who understands the meaning of the word "Super".

Heathcliff

01-26-2010, 11:48 PM

Superman is an alien.

Batman is awesome.

WingedWolf

01-27-2010, 12:50 AM

Definitely Bat Man!

Synthetic-Rose

04-19-2010, 11:16 PM

Batman takes the win in my book.

Now, I have seen Kill Bill Vol. 2, and I agree completely with everything that Bill says about Superman. In fact, if it weren't for the existence of Batman, Superman would by my hero of choice. But despite the fact that Superman's disguise is Clark Kent, and despite the fact that Superman naturally had his power and did nothing but move to a new planet in order to 'acquire' it, I respect Batman more.

Batman is completely mortal. He has no special abilities. All he has to his advantage is superior intellect and the money to build awesome gadgets. He is so much more easy to relate to as well. He hates. He loves. He seeks revenge, he has fear, he indulges in sadness, and he rises above hardships to accomplish his goals. He may hide behind a mask, but so does Superman, (Clark Kent's glasses.)

I almost think that Bruce/Batman is similar to Clark/Superman. I feel that Batman is at his most honest, and his truest self, when he dons the cloak and cowl. That mask, the bat, seems more like himself than the playboy billionaire. Just as Superman is at his most honest when he wears the cape and undies.

All that being said...Batman wins for me. He's easier to identify with in his imperfect nature, a very human nature. While Superman is more idealistic, Batman is more real. Reality wins it for me.

mona amon

04-20-2010, 01:08 AM

I used to like Batman better, but have changed my mind now. 'Darkness' is beginning to bore me, LOL. Bring on the Supermen!

Rores28

04-20-2010, 12:42 PM

Miracleman

FTW

MrRegular

04-23-2010, 07:42 AM

Superman is Nietzsche's Ubermensch created on the rebound of catastrophic war (in preparation for an even more catastrophic war).
Though Batman was technically created about the same time, he didn't come to prominence until a generation after WWII when the Superman cast was starting to seem too ambitious. Bruce Wayne proved that you could buy your way into superpowers. You'll notice the increasing interest in a darker, though still vigilant, Batman since 9/11. This is very indicative of the American zeitgeist.

Il Dante

04-23-2010, 10:45 AM

For me it's Batman. I've always found the dark, troubled, vigilante billionaire more interesting than the flat, perfect, omnipotent... guy. Batman is more interesting to me mainly due to the fact that he has issues and a psychology, whereas Superman is a perfect peach that none of us mortals can relate to.

But then, he can fly...

Satan

04-23-2010, 10:51 AM

Red undies, really? Pfft!

Batman, for all the reasons already stated and debated before in this thread and elsewhere.

Here's something for fans of the Dark Knight: Batman by Dostoyevsky (http://www.againwiththecomics.com/2007/08/batman-by-dostoyevsky.html).

MrRegular

04-24-2010, 06:43 AM

I had a friend once who had been in a car wreck that caused him to loose most of his teeth. He also suffered from servere achne. During the course of time in which I knew him, I noticed he had an aversion to light. Watching television in the complete dark, standing away from open windows during the day and closing them when he could. He also liked Batman, ninja's and zombies and he was an avid marksman.
I've known several attractive girls who will subconciously position themselves in bodies of light whenever available.
Your self image has alot of impact on your life whether you know it or not. Including your interests. This doesn't mean that all Batman fans are physically unnattractive, but what it does mean is that Batman is more popular than Sueprman because he represents an acheivable ideal as opposed to perfection. Ninja's are the same, they are not, after all, known for their valor.