Homework

[TheFifthElement]

OK, I have two children: one aged 9 and one aged 5. They both get homework.

Why?

When I finish work, I finish work. I don't bring work home. At the end of my working day my time is my time, to do with as I wish. Leisure time, social time, family time, spiritual time, and so on. So why doesn't the same apply to children? Shouldn't school work be completed within the school day, so that after school time when children are more tired, less able to absorb information, and more likely to get things wrong (aren't we all :D ), they can use their time as they wish: playing, doing sports, resting, reading, walking, cycling, playing on the X-box, playing board games, spending time with their family, swimming, seeing their friends, etc, etc.

So, I ask you: what is the purpose and/or benefits of homework?

[Virgil]

:lol: You sound like one of the children yourself Fifth, trying to get out of homework. :p I think homework reinforces the day's lecture. It does give them something to do and guides them on the studies. But you bring up an interesting point. I'm curious as to what the teachers here on lit net say.

[sprinks]

I guess in younger years it reinforces things that they've learnt, so they think about it more than just during school. And in high school most of us don't have enough time during a 45 minute lesson to finish work (thats how long each lesson is for us at my school.). Also, it teaches independant learning, instead of always going to the teacher, the students are encouraged to go and do their own research, a skill that helps later in life.

[TheFifthElement]

:lol: You sound like one of the children yourself Fifth, trying to get out of homework. :p I think homework reinforces the day's lecture. It does give them something to do and guides them on the studies. But you bring up an interesting point. I'm curious as to what the teachers here on lit net say.

I'm curious what the teachers will say too! I don't mind doing homework with the kids, but I do question its value. Children will learn quite naturally at home, and to a certain extent I would rather spend the time I have with them doing more family orientated things, like getting them to help out in the kitchen, going for a walk, bird-watching or whatever. Or perhaps going to an after school club like the Scouts, or karate, or dance, or swimming lessons. And I think they learn as much from doing those things as they do filling out a homework sheet (many of which have been illegally copied, hmm! what lesson does that teach?!). Education is about more than the formal teaching, more than the National Curriculum and SATS scores and so on, or at least that's what I think anyway.


I guess in younger years it reinforces things that they've learnt, so they think about it more than just during school. And in high school most of us don't have enough time during a 45 minute lesson to finish work (thats how long each lesson is for us at my school.). Also, it teaches independant learning, instead of always going to the teacher, the students are encouraged to go and do their own research, a skill that helps later in life.

sprinks, I understand what you're saying. My question is: why isn't there enough time in your school day to learn what you need to learn? Isn't that an inherent fault in the school day as opposed to a benefit of homework? As to independent study, I agree this is a beneficial skill to learn. But again, this could be done within school - certainly I used to have independent study time when I was a child, during which time the teacher could then catch up on marking and paperwork, allowing the teacher to have a normal working day too. I understand that a lot of teachers now have to take work home. It seems a very imbalanced system.

[Dori]

Though I don't believe we should have homework, I do think it serves some purpose. Maybe it's purpose is to not only to reinforce, but to force the student to work and think independently. Maybe there's not enough hours in the school day? Or is it its purpose to discipline individuals?

I dunno. :D I just do it with question.

[sprinks]

sprinks, I understand what you're saying. My question is: why isn't there enough time in your school day to learn what you need to learn? Isn't that an inherent fault in the school day as opposed to a benefit of homework. As to independent study, I agree this is a beneficial skill to learn. But again, this could be done within school - certainly I used to have independent study time when I was a child, during which time the teacher could then catch up on marking and paperwork, allowing the teacher to have a normal working day too. I understand that a lot of teachers now have to take work home. It seems a very imbalanced system.

I guess I feel that inside a school, the motivation isn't there as much to go do independant study and research, for some people. A school environment is much different to any other environment, and so I guess that going over to the school library to find a book doesn't have the same feel as actually taking it upon oneself to go to a library and find extra resources. I guess homework is not just a reinforcement of the days learnings, but also a way for the teachers and students to see how well the student actually knows and understands the information given - they are required to apply their knowledge in a different way. In class I find the questions are more directly linked to the teachings, but homework questions tend to be a little more off course, needing the student to really think and apply and understand what they've learnt.
Schools with limited resources would also require students to work outside of the classroom at home, as they might not all be able to access what they need.
As for not having enough time, well that depends on the class. I do subjects such as English Lit, media, art, drama, etc. And those types of projects involved take a lot of time, to the point where we have to work during school holidays on them. Art, media, and drama are the best examples of that. You can't put on a show in one lesson (not a good proper scripted one anyhow!), it's a mighty difficult task to complete a resolved piece of art in one lesson, and by the time you set up in media, the lesson is half over! And that is just the practical side of the classes, let alone the theory work involved!
On top of that, in classes such as lit, the class time is used for discussions on the text etc, and we are required to write essays and all outside of class time, in order for us to have the time for discussions. Of course we do get the odd lesson to work on an essay, but 45 minutes is barely enough time.

Of course I was always a little strange and loved homework, to the point I used to do other peoples homework for them too! (I still like it, but I have a lot these days :p)

I think another thing that affects it is what type of school it is. Private schools tend to have more homework than public schools, here at least. That's because private schools cost a lot more and have higher reputations to uphold, more rules, and the things expected of students are different and of a higher standard.

[Nightshade]

As someone who had 2 hours of homework every weeknight from when I was 6 ( and about 3 times as much at weekends). I guess one of the main purposes is to make sure every child absorbs something, as in a classrooms istuation some people fall through the cracks, and it reassures some parents that there children are actually doing something.

But I dont think it works for everyone, for instance I am an audio-visual learner I can probably still quote word for word some of the lectures I got in year 7-9 in say history or geograophy, I dont care to but I know if I think about it I can becuase hearing it seeing it glued it in my mind somewhere. And my nature I take things out and puzzle over them until Im sure I understand them so I never really needed the homeweork but other people do and it wouldnt be fair to give it to some people and not others. :nod:

[TheFifthElement]

sprinks, I'm impressed at your defence of the school system :D I still think it's all laid out wrong though, for example:

I guess I feel that inside a school, the motivation isn't there as much to go do independant study and research, for some people. A school environment is much different to any other environment, and so I guess that going over to the school library to find a book doesn't have the same feel as actually taking it upon oneself to go to a library and find extra resources. I guess homework is not just a reinforcement of the days learnings, but also a way for the teachers and students to see how well the student actually knows and understands the information given - they are required to apply their knowledge in a different way. In class I find the questions are more directly linked to the teachings, but homework questions tend to be a little more off course, needing the student to really think and apply and understand what they've learnt.
Schools with limited resources would also require students to work outside of the classroom at home, as they might not all be able to access what they need.

Schools should be appropriately resourced. If schools aren't resourced well enough for children to be able to learn what they need to learn, this is a fault of the school system. The easy answer seems to be 'take it home' which makes it someone else's problem, but there's no guarantee that the child will have access to the necessary resources at home. Not all families have home computers, not all families are able to take their children to the library.

As to the question of evidencing 'learning' there's no real way to know how the child got the homework done. Parental help may actually disguise lack of understanding. Some children get their friends to help them with their homework or do it for them, as you mentioned. If someone hasn't got the motivation to independently study within school they're unlikely to have it outside either. Sending it home doesn't solve the problem, it just masks or avoids it.


As for not having enough time, well that depends on the class. I do subjects such as English Lit, media, art, drama, etc. And those types of projects involved take a lot of time, to the point where we have to work during school holidays on them. Art, media, and drama are the best examples of that. You can't put on a show in one lesson (not a good proper scripted one anyhow!), it's a mighty difficult task to complete a resolved piece of art in one lesson, and by the time you set up in media, the lesson is half over! And that is just the practical side of the classes, let alone the theory work involved!
On top of that, in classes such as lit, the class time is used for discussions on the text etc, and we are required to write essays and all outside of class time, in order for us to have the time for discussions. Of course we do get the odd lesson to work on an essay, but 45 minutes is barely enough time.

So, lessons need to be longer or organised better? If it can't be done in 45 minutes, and that's how long lessons are, then the work is carried forward to the next class. This, in itself, should evidence how students are retaining information. Do you ever have double classes? We used to have double science because some experiments couldn't be completed in a 45 minute lesson. We never once took an experiment home :p

Everything you've said here sprinks just convinces me more that school system expects too much, is too far stretched. Your holiday time is your holiday time, you should never have to do school work in it. School becomes the mouth that dictates how you use your private time. What if your parents wanted to take a 6 week trip to Europe? They can't do it because you have school work? That seems all wrong to me. I do think schools have too much holiday time, or rather the holiday time is organised all wrong. Six weeks off over summer is just too long.


Of course I was always a little strange and loved homework, to the point I used to do other peoples homework for them too! (I still like it, but I have a lot these days :p)

:lol: actually I don't think that's strange at all sprinks. I think it's kind of nice. But when I was young, many moons ago, I used to set my own homework. I'd get bored during the school holidays and would pick a subject to study. With my children's homework load already, I find that their opportunity to explore subjects for self study are limited; in a sense the homework load actually reduces their drive and opportunity for independent study and research.

[kilted exile]

As someone who never did his homework I have no idea

[stlukesguild]

it reinforces things that they've learnt, so they think about it more than just during school.

As for not having enough time, well that depends on the class. I do subjects such as English Lit, media, art, drama, etc. And those types of projects involved take a lot of time, to the point where we have to work during school holidays on them. Art, media, and drama are the best examples of that. You can't put on a show in one lesson (not a good proper scripted one anyhow!), it's a mighty difficult task to complete a resolved piece of art in one lesson, and by the time you set up in media, the lesson is half over! And that is just the practical side of the classes, let alone the theory work involved!


Out of the mouths of babes...? Sprinks has essentially hit the nail on the head. Homework is intended as a reinforcement of concepts, facts, formulas, etc... covered during the normal school day. Learning usually requires repetition. One does not introduce a concept such as multiplication involving multiple digit numerals and expect a child to grasp it immediately. Homework also has a larger purpose of preparing a child for the reality that learning doesn't stop in the classroom. When you leave work you leave your job behind? Lucky you. This is not a reality in a great many professions. Teachers themselves have homework: lesson plans, grading, studying curriculum guides, reading up on the latest educational ideas, honing up on their own field of expertise... even required CEUs and college course. This is true of doctors, lawyers, business people, etc... Homework also involves things for which there is not adequate time during the normal school day. When specific subject area classes are limited to perhaps 50 minutes, we are not being realistic if we expect that time to be spent reading the novel to be discussed in reading/literacy, reading the required chapters to be discussed in history, etc... Certainly I don't remember spending the time in my college courses reading the required texts, either. That was homework.

My question is: why isn't there enough time in your school day to learn what you need to learn? Isn't that an inherent fault in the school day as opposed to a benefit of homework? As to independent study, I agree this is a beneficial skill to learn. But again, this could be done within school - certainly I used to have independent study time when I was a child, during which time the teacher could then catch up on marking and paperwork, allowing the teacher to have a normal working day too. I understand that a lot of teachers now have to take work home. It seems a very imbalanced system.

Teachers and students have always had homework because the reality is that there is not enough time in the school day to do all that must be done... especially if you imagine our children are going to have the least chance of competing in an increasingly international market against nations who take education far more serious. The average school day is but 6 ½ hours long. One 50-minute period is devoted to lunch and recess. Another 50-minute period (or more) is set aside for art, music, physical education, or other special classes during which time the homeroom teacher has his or her planning period. That leaves us with less than 5 hours (not counting time lost transitioning between classes, dealing with bathroom breaks, time spent at lockers, and every other possible disruption) during which time we must teach math, reading, science, social studies, etc... Do you imagine that our children can master all they need to learn in today's society in that time?

Schools should be appropriately resourced. If schools aren't resourced well enough for children to be able to learn what they need to learn, this is a fault of the school system.

Huh?:confused: If the money isn't there to purchase needed nooks, materials, resources... let alone fund an appropriate number of teachers and extra service personnel (psychologists, therapists, special needs assistants, etc...) it is the fault of the school system? How does that pan out? Or perhaps its the fault of the parents who are living at or below the poverty level because they "chose" to be poor and unable to properly provide their child's school with a better tax base.:(:rolleyes:

Everything you've said here sprinks just convinces me more that school system expects too much...

Schools don't expect too much. Parents who are unwilling to accept their own responsibility and expect the schools to instill discipline, morals, sex education, and a mastery of every possible field that their child needs to compete in today's economy expect too much. The world we live in expects too much... if we imagine that our students are to continue to remain competitive in an international economy against students from other nations who place far greater value upon education... including homework. Our government and entire society expect too much of education when they continue to pay teachers at the lower end of the professional pay scale, don't provide them with appropriate materials, books, and resources, and treat them with a level of respect that is frankly demoralizing... and yet we expect that the best and the brightest will rush to the profession... and stay once reality hits?

[jon1jt]

OK, I have two children: one aged 9 and one aged 5. They both get homework.

Why?

I guess the idea is that reinforcement is necessary, but teachers are not beholden to homework standards---so long as they're giving homework, from the administration's point of view, then that's terrific. Most of the time teachers give homework because that's what they're supposed to do. Rarely have I ever seen a thoughtful assignment come across my desk as a private tutor. I don't see homework assignments, such as doing the questions at the end of a chapter, as reinforcement of the topic learned---I see that as a keep-busy-exercise coupled with a bit of brainwashing. Educators pride themselves in appearances and unfortunately, homework is one of them.


I'll mention teacher instructions in the same context. I've been as mystified as the many students who have come to me with instructions for an assignment. Usually I write the teacher a note and they respond a bit more thoroughly, but not all the time. And so assignments, you see, are just another way for teachers to cover themselves, they've given X-number of research papers or X-number of group projects.

The system is a joke, which is why I refused to work in one. And shame on the scores of teachers who are wasting their students time in the name of a paycheck.

[motherhubbard]

One reason some children have homework is because they are not completing their work in class. Is the homework assigned or is it class work that was not completed? If it is incomplete class work then that may be a sign that the child does not have an adequate attention span or something is distracting them during class. It could also show that they are having a hard time comprehending the material. Homework is not good for assessment and I don’t know any teachers who take grades on assigned homework. I do understand a 5 or 9 year old bringing home a paper to be done with their parents. Homework is a way to bridge the gap between school and home. This does help to involve parents, but assigned homework I’m not so high on.

[Zee.]

Homework is the most retarded thing ever invented by man.

[jon1jt]

One reason some children have homework is because they are not completing their work in class. Is the homework assigned or is it class work that was not completed? If it is incomplete class work then that may be a sign that the child does not have an adequate attention span or something is distracting them during class. It could also show that they are having a hard time comprehending the material. Homework is not good for assessment and I don’t know any teachers who take grades on assigned homework. I do understand a 5 or 9 year old bringing home a paper to be done with their parents. Homework is a way to bridge the gap between school and home. This does help to involve parents, but assigned homework I’m not so high on.

Well that could be part of the problem, which is an internal issue that schools have not been able to deal with effectively. If classrooms are filled with defiant kids who are distracting the greater whole from instruction, how are they all supposed to learn the lesson by themselves doing homework and dealing with a language that for the most part is beyond the average and even above average learner?

Look, children are spending over 7 hours in school going from one class to the next like little robots coming away at the end of day breaking their backs carrying oversized textbooks for homework assignments that have little value on the life of the child. The problem with school generally is that there are too many subjects trying to be covered and not enough emphasis on interdisciplinary learning. And yet schools can't even get this right.

One example I recall is when I worked at a high school the English and Social Studies departments created the first interdisciplinary course and there was a lot of hoopla. So one day I noticed the interdisciplinary class and its two teachers in the library. I come to find out that each student was performing online "research" for a paper that asked them to "discuss the importance of" a myth that each had picked for the assignment. :rolleyes: Interdisciplinary?? Constructive?? :sick:


Limajean is definitely on to something, yes. ;)

[Zee.]

Both my Literature and History teacher have suggested that I do some writing exercises this year and hand them in to be assessed and receive constructive criticism. This is to hopefully tighten my written expression as I have the habit of opening up to other points instead of staying focused on my task. Now I think THESE kinds of exercises are great. They're beneficial and most importantly, they're not forced. I think that kids, at such a young age, shouldn't be forced to do homework simply because I don't see or understand the need. 6/7 hours a day at school is a long time for a little kid, it really upsets me to see that they have to waste so much of their childhood focusing on things they wont even remember as they get older. Now for people my age and a little bit younger ( i'm in my last year ) I know in regards to me, it's sort of self study. If I want to do the work, then good, that's up to me. If I choose not to, then nothing happens and I lose out.

But hell - I hate the educational system. It's all the same no matter where you are.
Programming robots.

[Scheherazade]

I understand the concerns over burdening children with unnecessary amount of work just to be able to tick boxes or limiting their free time. I think it should be emphasised here that what purpose homework serves entirely depends on homework's nature. Asking children memorising words in Frech over night or some other parrot-work homework would not help much develop them maybe in the long term but asking them do researches or read at least once a day for a page or learn their timetables (one set a week) or practise their spelling will encourage children take their work more "seriously".

We really need to make our children understand that learning is a lifelong process; it is not limited by school time only and study skills are needed at every stage of our lives. In my personal opinion, it is OK to expect students further explore the subjects they have been studying at school and some of this can be done at home. It is also a good way getting parents involved. Unfortunately, not all parents are as dedicated as Fifth; they do not know what their children do at school (again the notion that school and daily life do not mix). So, by assigning some tasks, the teacher can ensure that parents are more involved in their children's academic development.

I would like to add that I do not advocate daily homeworks but weekly assignments are quite acceptable and also very helpful.

[kandaurov]

An interesting debate has arisen here. I say that homework is important because it instills a work ethic which must not be underestimated.

As a kid I had no homework, and as a result of that I struggled in secondary school and in the first year of college to keep up with all the assignments and readings. I just wasn't used to work outside school time. My cousin, on the other hand, has always had them, and has never had a problem with assignment deadlines or anything of the sort. I believe that it helps to inculcate a sense of responsibility which is absolutely vital, no matter what your field of work will turn out to be.

I do agree, however, that the amount of homework should be significantly less in the early school years, and also that homework should always be pertinent and engaging, and not something you dash off to keep the kids busy. Nevertheless, I insist that, when carried out in a correct manner, homework assignment is crucial to the preparation of a student for both the academic and work life.

[Virgil]

I'm curious what the teachers will say too! I don't mind doing homework with the kids, but I do question its value. Children will learn quite naturally at home, and to a certain extent I would rather spend the time I have with them doing more family orientated things, like getting them to help out in the kitchen, going for a walk, bird-watching or whatever. Or perhaps going to an after school club like the Scouts, or karate, or dance, or swimming lessons. And I think they learn as much from doing those things as they do filling out a homework sheet (many of which have been illegally copied, hmm! what lesson does that teach?!). Education is about more than the formal teaching, more than the National Curriculum and SATS scores and so on, or at least that's what I think anyway.

I commend you doing the homework along with the children. I've mentioned before my father was blind but he had this remarkable ability to do arithmetic in his head and we would do all the math asignments and no matter how long the numbers he would do the addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division together. [Oh my gosh, it's just occured to me that those little reviews over homework may have been what led to me being an engineer. Oh thank you Papa.:bawling:] Anyway it was a bonding proccess.


An interesting debate has arisen here. I say that homework is important because it instills a work ethic which must not be underestimated.

Absolutely!!! Yes I agree Kandy, it does instill a discipline and work ethic.

[jon1jt]

Both my Literature and History teacher have suggested that I do some writing exercises this year and hand them in to be assessed and receive constructive criticism.


Well yeah that's all well and good but you could do the same in a forum like this one and probably receive much better criticism without any intention of cloning you.


This is to hopefully tighten my written expression as I have the habit of opening up to other points instead of staying focused on my task.

Maybe tightening is not what you need at all. Sounds more like an issue of the teacher wanting you to staying focused on what the he/she expects, whereas I don't think straying is necessarily a bad thing considering all things are connected. Read Consilience by Robert O Wilson and then come back and tell us if your writing strays. ;)

I say to hell with the five paragraph essay, it's absolutely worthless.

[Zee.]

:) thank you ha

Yeah what annoys me is how the problem is focused on you. You know? opposed to the problem being with the teacher.
Lord, i'm smarter than half my teachers. I have no problem admitting to that.

[jon1jt]

As a kid I had no homework, and as a result of that I struggled in secondary school and in the first year of college to keep up with all the assignments and readings. I just wasn't used to work outside school time.


First of all the amount of reading in college is absurd. Most students can't possibly finish the bulk of it or else it will cut into the paper writing and such. The average attention span is two hours. There's the basic courses: English, Social Studies, Math, Science, each running at about 45-50 minutes a day. And there's electives which require a student's attention. (I'm talking about basic education here folks, but college is really no different running an hour-plus per course, some three hours with a small break.)

Now you all are telling me after sitting thru all this students should come home and do homework??

How many hours a day do you read? How many hours do you devote to work before your mind starts drifting?? Admit it working folks, you wouldn't be up for some learning task after a full day either. Let's call homework what it is: nonsense. You want students to learn??---Let them read books during the time they're wasting in school watching teachers with their lesson plans about saving the world. :rolleyes:


I remember one of my grad professors who piled on the reading, teaching us a technique known as "skim reading"---which involves finding key points in a piece and moving on. :rolleyes: The nitwit.


My cousin, on the other hand, has always had them, and has never had a problem with assignment deadlines or anything of the sort.

So you're going to make the quantum leap and attribute your cousin's success to having had homework and your setbacks to not having had homework?? C'mon.



I believe that it helps to inculcate a sense of responsibility which is absolutely vital, no matter what your field of work will turn out to be.

No. Homework also helps to inculcate a sense of loathing for school and educators. Usually when somebody out of school tells me that they "hate" history or hate literature I ask them about their old social studies or English teachers and 9 times out of 10 they volunteer saying that they couldn't stand the teacher. Underlying this in part is the grueling homework and humdrum lessons coming in the form of teacher-babble, teacher prepared lesson booklet supplements, notetaking---all allowing teachers to kill time and shirk responsibility.

Education is turning off the lamp of learning long before its on and burning strong.

[Dori]

:) thank you ha

Yeah what annoys me is how the problem is focused on you. You know? opposed to the problem being with the teacher.
Lord, i'm smarter than half my teachers. I have no problem admitting to that.

Well, most often, as far as I've seen, the problem is with the student. Though I have seen some pretty crappy teachers. My US history teacher, for instance. And my math teacher. I won't---can't---claim to be smarter than any of my teachers, even the bad ones. Of course, I go to a very small school with excellent teacher, or such is my opinion of them.


@jon1jt: Ay, to hell with the five paragraph essay!

[Zee.]

Well, unfortunately, i've dealt with some really terrible teachers before.

My english teacher once asked us how to spell 'anonymous'
teachers are only people.

[Dori]

Well, unfortunately, i've dealt with some really terrible teachers before.

My english teacher once asked us how to spell 'anonymous'
teachers are only people.

:lol: Wow...
Sounds like my history teacher.

Everyone in my school detests the US history teacher---a young female. She knows her stuff, and she is a decent teacher. Or at least she would be if anyone respected her. But, as it is, everyone feels they can talk and do whatever in her classroom, and they revel in angering her. Though I must say, she's often stuck with huge classes, so that's probably part of the reason. Also, everyone complains of her "boring, monotone voice."

I plead the fifth on that comment. :D

[papayahed]

My english teacher once asked us how to spell 'anonymous'
teachers are only people.

wait not being able to spell anonymous makes me a dummy?

[TheInsomniac]

Whats this homework you speak of?

I think i almost got suspended from my school after getting 12 consecutive detentions from not doing homework and then not turning up to any of them. Homework is a useless tool in my opinion and school should stay in school, if i wish to do better, then i simply study.

I think that teachers are trying to force the healthy 'study' routine by giving out homework, whereas if they had a little trust in their students and faith that they have used their lessons time efficiently, we wouldn't need homework.

I remember back to mid year exams in year 11, i turned up to my maths one still tipsy from the night before with no study and managed a 70%. I think one of the teachers found out because after the exam he sat me down and gave me this hour long lecture on the effects of alcohol :s

[sprinks]

Schools should be appropriately resourced. If schools aren't resourced well enough for children to be able to learn what they need to learn, this is a fault of the school system. The easy answer seems to be 'take it home' which makes it someone else's problem, but there's no guarantee that the child will have access to the necessary resources at home. Not all families have home computers, not all families are able to take their children to the library.
I am aware of that. I have two examples though, one is my own school, a fairly expensive private school. The first year I started was the first year the school was open. We had 1 building with 3 classrooms, a general room with books and some computers, that also had in it a storage and uniform room, an admin and staff room - and this ONE building was no bigger than a house. We also had a toilet block. We had 5 teachers, and a little under 100 students. So while it was enough to get by, we had science teachers teaching maths, sports teachers teaching art, all sorts of things, because that was all we could do. Since then, some 5 years later, we have gone to about 8 classroom blocks, each with about 5 rooms as well as storage rooms, an entire admin building which includes various staff rooms and a sick bay etc., the original toilet block was doubled in size and another one added, change room block was added, a library and an oval were built, our auditorium is still being built, and we have basketball courts and more busses, as well as a primary school next to the high school. And the school is still growing, it isn't finished yet. Also, there are about 50 or so teachers, as well as about 500 students. It's grown an incredible amount, and you think with a shelf of books and a few computers we would be able to do effective work? But they weren't going to close the school because of 'lack of resources' because it was still being built. Now, being a private school, albeit lacking in many things those years beforehand, it is expensive and therefore assumed that people who can afford that can afford to go to a public library where they have books and computers for use, if they don't have their own.

Also, there is one of the public schools around here with an incredibly bad reputation and even worse students. But it gives them a chance to learn somewhere, when they have little hope of being accepted elsewhere.



As to the question of evidencing 'learning' there's no real way to know how the child got the homework done. Parental help may actually disguise lack of understanding. Some children get their friends to help them with their homework or do it for them, as you mentioned. If someone hasn't got the motivation to independently study within school they're unlikely to have it outside either. Sending it home doesn't solve the problem, it just masks or avoids it.
Once again, I get what you are saying. The only thing is that come exam time, it will show if the student was getting other people to do it and was not understanding it themselves.
Another thing is that when a student is outside the classroom environment, they possibly have more time and space to think about the work, perhaps find other theories and understandings of it. Inside the classroom, it can often be loud and noisy with people constantly talking. Just a thought there. Personally, in art class, I struggle to work inside the classroom. I hate the feel of people watching me when I do art. That's why I do a lot better at home. But as a result I lose a whole class of opportunity to do work. Some people just work better outside of school, in their own environment. Then too, you have the people who are brilliant and thats why they get bored and don't do work, leading people to think they are not as smart as they really are. The parents of such people often know how to approach the work in a way that will interest the student, to get them curious to work it out. Some teachers too, know how to do this, but at the same time they have another 20 - 30 or so students to look after. Then, extra tuition is suggested, for the teacher to help them during recess and lunch because they are unable to do so during class time, and then the student loses the only real opportunities we are given to enjoy school time with friends and go out and play and do what we'd like.



So, lessons need to be longer or organised better? If it can't be done in 45 minutes, and that's how long lessons are, then the work is carried forward to the next class. This, in itself, should evidence how students are retaining information. Do you ever have double classes? We used to have double science because some experiments couldn't be completed in a 45 minute lesson. We never once took an experiment home :p
School lessons can't really be any longer if they are set into routine already. We have 35 periods a week. 2 of physical education, 1 of Christian ed, 1 of extended form for class activities etc, 1 of Health ed, and in Year 11 we get one study period replacing Health ed. In year 8, students do around 14 subjects through the year. In year 9 it goes to 10 subjects, and the same in year 10. In year 11 it goes to 8 subjects. In Year 12 it can range, as you can chose to do 5 subjects and a study, or 6 subjects, but as well as keeping phys ed, Christian ed, extended form, and one compulsory study period. It is all set into such a routine already, and the day goes from 9:00 to 3:15pm, excluding form in the morning before class.
As for double periods, we do have them. In year 8 though, if we had 2 classes the same in one day, they would never be next to each other, it would be one in the morning and one in the afternoon. Mostly this was due to what I have mentioned beforehand, we only had 5 teachers, we had to work out a schedule to fit them all. These days we do have doubles that go together, as we have more teachers. Even still, that is only an hour and a half. Some schools I know of have 2 hour lessons - in that case there would be quite a bit of time to get some good work done. Also, some schools finish early on some days, getting out at about 1pm instead of 3pm. These latter schools though, are the public ones that don't expect much of students. They don't have homework expected of them much, they don't have much expected of them at all, and they get more time to do what they like. But it isn't going to help them succeed in life.



Everything you've said here sprinks just convinces me more that school system expects too much, is too far stretched. Your holiday time is your holiday time, you should never have to do school work in it. School becomes the mouth that dictates how you use your private time. What if your parents wanted to take a 6 week trip to Europe? They can't do it because you have school work? That seems all wrong to me. I do think schools have too much holiday time, or rather the holiday time is organised all wrong. Six weeks off over summer is just too long.

That second sentence of yours is exactly what our principal said. Only, the teachers set the work, not him, and they continue to do so. People have in the past set such trips, and they contact the school and sort out a way around it.
Our school has a trip around Europe this year. Year 12 students are not allowed to go because we have too much work to do. Is that fair? Perhaps not. But given the chance, would we go? Perhaps not. Because we know that we have a lot of work head of us this year. But we still would have appriciated the opportunity instead of being denied it all along. Some schools wouldn't care, I suppose, and would let whatever students go, regardless of what workload they have ahead of them.
Oh and this last lot of holidays I'm about to finish soon, went for about 10 weeks. 2 and a half months. Year 11s finished about 2 weeks earlier than other year levels, because we finished exams before them.



:lol: actually I don't think that's strange at all sprinks. I think it's kind of nice. But when I was young, many moons ago, I used to set my own homework. I'd get bored during the school holidays and would pick a subject to study. With my children's homework load already, I find that their opportunity to explore subjects for self study are limited; in a sense the homework load actually reduces their drive and opportunity for independent study and research.

It's too individual for me to keep arguing. Personally I love being given the chance to do independant work - it means I can show off, to put it bluntly. It's one of the areas I do well in in drama, I do a lot of independant research and things, and the teacher greatly appriciates it and I get very high marks for it.


(sorry if some of this makes not much sense, or doesn't address what you said, I'm rushing off to do some things with friends but I thought I'd respond here first :))

[Zee.]

wait not being able to spell anonymous makes me a dummy?

Woah - chill out. I didn't say that at all. But go ahead, assume that.


She is my english teacher. And she's asking HER students how to spell a word.
I don't see how you can't see the irony. And that was the point I was making.

[jon1jt]

Woah - chill out. I didn't say that at all. But go ahead, assume that.


She is my english teacher. And she's asking HER students how to spell a word.
I don't see how you can't see the irony. And that was the point I was making.


Actually, yes---if you have a college degree and can't spell a word like 'anonymous' then you're dumb, plain and simple. And that person has no business teaching. You would not believe the number of "teachers"--in English, Social Studies and special ed that I encountered who couldn't spell. Well, the special ed teachers get a pass, and extra time. :rolleyes:

[Zee.]

Exactly my point...


Sorry Papaya but if you are an English teacher and can't spell that word, then you aren't deserving of your position.

[aBIGsheep]

Montessori?

[jon1jt]

Exactly my point...


Sorry Papaya but if you are an English teacher and can't spell that word, then you aren't deserving of your position.


It's true---if you're a teacher and can't spell simple words then you owe it to the profession to step down from your position, it's your civic duty. I quit the profession because I was tired of working with a bunch of wannabe teachers, and I'll return when they're all gone, my civic duty, and my students will get no homework either. Yeah.

[sprinks]

She is my english teacher. And she's asking HER students how to spell a word.
I don't see how you can't see the irony. And that was the point I was making.

Yeah mine's like that too. She asked us how to spell 'concertina' as in concertina doors, and was convinced it started with 'cons', among many other similar things like that.

[Nightshade]

Sorry, excuse me, what!? The ability to spell does not detract from the ability to teach. The purpose of teachers isn't to teach you to spell but to encourage you to learn to spell big differants, though it is a differance of semantics. Teachers are inducers of learning and are not without faults, now obviously I have my own reasons for getting annoyed with those comments but that aside surly a teacher who plants a love of a subject or learning in general in students is better than one who simply a wlaking a text book?

[TheFifthElement]

OK, there’s a lot to respond to here! I’ll do this in chunks. Let’s start with:

Homework is intended as a reinforcement of concepts, facts, formulas, etc... covered during the normal school day.
repetition can occur in school, why does it need to carry on outside or perhaps a better question is why does it have to carry on in a prescribed manner outside? Children can learn arithmetic by playing Monopoly or other board games, by going to the shops with their 50p piece and deciding which chocolate bar they can afford to buy. Children learn language from chatting with parents and relatives and neighbours and the checkout girl/boy at Tesco.
Imagine something different for a moment. Imagine how teachers would react if I sent my children to school with letters to write to their grandparents, thus reinforcing the moral, social, linguistic ideals I want them to learn. It’s not appropriate. During the school day they learn what the Government sets down they must learn. Outside the school day then it’s my responsibility. You say here this:


Schools don't expect too much. Parents who are unwilling to accept their own responsibility and expect the schools to instill discipline, morals, sex education, and a mastery of every possible field that their child needs to compete in today's economy expect too much.

and I agree, parents have the responsibility for their children. But you can’t say on the one hand that parents are unwilling to accept responsibility when on the other hand the homework load drives a wedge between parent and child. Effectively the State dictates the when the how and the what of childrens’ learning. Parents seem to have little say in it. If you want people to take responsibility you have to give it to them. Giving homework just reinforces that the responsibility for education is out of the parents' hands.

For the record, I do not expect schools to teach my children discipline, morality, sex education (other than as a sub-field of the subject of biology) or a whole load of subjects that they’ll never use in their working life. But all this still leads to the point I was making in the first place. The system is all wrong. Everything you’ve said stlukes reinforces that. I don’t expect teachers to do homework. Reiterating that they do only means you’re accepting the status quo. If this can’t be done:

Teachers and students have always had homework because the reality is that there is not enough time in the school day to do all that must be done... especially if you imagine our children are going to have the least chance of competing in an increasingly international market against nations who take education far more serious.
it should be challenged. Why are both students and teachers unable to complete what is expected of them in their working/school day? Is it because expectations are too high, or too broad? Is it because inefficiencies exist in the methods which are being masked by sending work home? These are the things I think need to be challenged and put right. No one should have to take work home. No one. Is that too utopic?

And it’s interesting this word ‘compete’; it made me think two things: 1) if competition is all we can offer our children then we may as well annihilate ourselves now and 2) competition no longer exists in the education system, or at least not in UK anyway. The only plaudits doled out at my childrens’ school is for being the best cog in the wheel: quietest, most well behaved, least ‘rocking of the boat’. No child is recognised for achievement as this is deemed ‘singling out’ and unfair on children with lesser abilities. So we’re not really even teaching children to compete as competitiveness is being quashed as part of the system. Or as limajean very eloquently put it:


Programming robots.

or as jon1jt put it:

Education is turning off the lamp of learning long before its on and burning strong.

amen to that! My husband and I are working hard to ensure that our eldest child continues to have a desire to learn, however hard the National Curriculum tries to switch that off. We seriously considered home schooling, and are still considering it. But our concern then turns to how we address his social education, and the question as to whether we are falling into the same trap: putting academic success above all else. I want so much more for my children than that. So, he is learning resilience, and at home we work on injecting the interest to keep his desire for learning alive. Then someone sends some homework home and then we can’t even do that.

part 2 will follow :D

[kandaurov]

Well I'm obviously going against the "we don't need no education" grain, and my going against the stream has turned out bad just a few days ago, but this time I stand my ground.

Jon1t, I've long admired your contributions to the Poetry section and I did appreciate your thorough reply. It was, however, very selective in the quotes chosen to reply to, and you adamantly refused to establish common ground when clearly I tried to, which seems to reflect a desire to have a skirmish rather than having a 'give and take' discussion.

When I read your post I though I was reading a educational system dystopia. Now I know some people do teach like that, but let's not generalise. I've had excellent teachers who taught me a lot of things I still know and use today, who were dynamic and engaging, who made me think before I answered, and who assigned me meaningful homework.

You seem to have conveniently ignored my post's last paragraph, where I say that homework is good if its quantity and quality are carefully considered. Imagine you had to do 30 minutes of meaningful homework every day (which is more or less what I had to do in basic education, I don't know about those seemingly horrible American teachers you speak of). 30 minutes! Just to help you crystalise what you've learned and to prepare you for later life, where you'll have to work autonomously and outside the '9 to 5' period. If it's 30 minutes of meaningful exercise, do you still reprove of it?

I tried to overlook your aphorism in the last sentence, but I can't. You clearly know better than what is in that sweeping statement, where you attack education even though you're a tutor. I understand that you're not quite in the dreaded "system", but how can you, being a tutor, say that education is antithetical to learning? Very dystopian indeed. Works as an aphorism to make the end of your post forceful, but I wonder whether it's an argument which would be in your best interest to defend.

[TheFifthElement]

Part 2:


Homework is a way to bridge the gap between school and home.
motherhubbard, I think this is a really good point. Yes, there needs to be a bridge between school and home and that makes a lot of sense. My question is, how big does the bridge have to be? And what other methods are available to bridge those gaps? Homework often only reaches the parents who were prepared to bridge that gap anyway, and the ones who don’t continue to be a problem. I imagine this is a tough puzzle for schools to work out, I’m not sure how I would bridge it.


I've mentioned before my father was blind but he had this remarkable ability to do arithmetic in his head and we would do all the math asignments and no matter how long the numbers he would do the addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division together. [Oh my gosh, it's just occured to me that those little reviews over homework may have been what led to me being an engineer. Oh thank you Papa.] Anyway it was a bonding proccess.

Hey Virgil, that’s a nice story. I bonded with my Dad by helping him with the garden, growing tomatoes and seedlings in his greenhouse. We bird-watched. We watched wrestling together and fought and argued and giggled about it afterwards, and shared chinese food. We talked. I bet you did a whole load of stuff like that with your Dad too. My worry is that when my eldest child reaches 13 his homework load will be so extensive that it will drive a big wedge in our family unit. How can we have quality time together, especially during his teenage years which are difficult even in the best of situations, when he is constantly tired and spending most of his supposed ‘free time’ doing schoolwork just to get grades? I worry about my 5 year old finding reading demoralising, not because she can’t do it (she’s really doing well) but because by the time we are all home and settled and have eaten dinner and so on it’s 18:30, which is only an hour from her bedtime, she’s tired after a long day working hard at school and somehow it’s just not so easy and she’s rubbing her eyes and finding it hard to concentrate. So she starts to see it as a struggle, which brings us back to jon’s point here (which I’ll quote again ‘cos I really like it :D )


Education is turning off the lamp of learning long before its on and burning strong.

Instead I refuse to make her read during the week and quite frankly I don't care if the teachers like it or not. As stlukes pointed out, my children are my responsibility and I have the advantage, which the teachers do not, of being able to treat my children individually according to what I know about them and how they learn best and what drives them. So I read with her at weekend when she’s rested and then it’s a joy. During the week she has a story read to her every night, and she likes to read words on billboards and TV adverts and crayons and magazines and Pokemon cards and all sorts of things like that. If she wants to try and read something then I’m happy for that, proud of her if she gets it right, help her if she struggles. Just because we’re not reading the school book or doing the work as laid down in the National Curriculum doesn’t mean she stops learning. Actually, you’d be hard pressed to stop a 5, 6, 7, 8, or even 9 year old from learning. They’re hard-wired to do it.


An interesting debate has arisen here. I say that homework is important because it instills a work ethic which must not be underestimated.

Ah kandaurov, what is this thing ‘work ethic’ that everyone thinks is so important. Do not underestimate the power of laziness. Why do you think we have washing machines? Vaccuum cleaners? All these labour saving devices around the home. Combined harvesters, the motor vehicle, tinned food? Laziness. From the desire to loaf. Innovation comes from a desire to do things better, quicker, to give us more leisure time, time to do the things we want to do instead of the things we have to do. Work ethic, to me, is often too easily replaceable with ‘maintaining the status quo’, doing things as we have always done without challenge. A good work ethic, to me, involves applying the best of your abilities to do something in the best way possible. Challenging us to use our brains for what they’re best at: innovation. I’ve yet to see one homework assignment that comes from my children’s school that encourages those values. And don't get me wrong, I'm not actually dismissing the idea of work ethic, only the version of work ethic that involves doing things by rote, without challenge, without reflection. The idea that 'just doing something' is the most important thing.


.As a kid I had no homework, and as a result of that I struggled in secondary school and in the first year of college to keep up with all the assignments and readings. I just wasn't used to work outside school time. My cousin, on the other hand, has always had them, and has never had a problem with assignment deadlines or anything of the sort.
So you struggled adapting to homework. Who wouldn’t? Did you have any problems getting the work done you needed to get done in your class time? Probably not. So you could hit a deadline. However, as your school work started to eat into time which you were already using for other purposes you had trouble adapting to this. School work took over your life. I’m not surprised you had trouble adapting to that.


Nevertheless, I insist that, when carried out in a correct manner, homework assignment is crucial to the preparation of a student for both the academic and work life.
How does it prepare you for work life? As I mentioned before, I don’t bring work home. Maybe I work for a progressive company (I doubt it, I work for an Insurance Company!) but there’s an acknowledgement in my business that to get the best from employees you need happy employees. Rested employees. Employees that challenge inefficiencies and put their best efforts into finding the best way to do something with the least resource. Employees with a balanced work/home/social life. Now I interview candidates for positions in my company and it’s a rare graduate that comes out of university with skills that are transferable into the work place. In fact often the ones that do have transferable skills are the ones who have conducted activities outside their academic schooling: hobbies, volunteering, part time jobs, groups/clubs, whatever. I’d say, in my experience, the current methods in our schooling system from the grass roots to the top universities, do not prepare people for their working life. That may be less so in vocational studies, for example those studying law or medicine. But I’d still guarantee that those people learn significantly more in their first year of practice than in 4 years of study. Education goes beyond academia. My question is why we value academia above all other forms of education: social, emotional, spiritual, physical?

[TheFifthElement]

Part 3: final!


Hey sprinks, I’m very much enjoying debating with you. I hope this doesn’t come across in all the wrong way.

It's grown an incredible amount, and you think with a shelf of books and a few computers we would be able to do effective work? But they weren't going to close the school because of 'lack of resources' because it was still being built.

In the example you’ve used, which I’ve trimmed down rather a lot, I’d say your school was not fit for purpose and should not have been opened until it was ready to receive and educate the students with the adequate resources already in place. I don’t blame or fault the school. I blame the system that allows the school to be inadequately resourced. Imagine if you bought an MP3 player which was supposed to play MP3 files that you uploaded to it from your computer. However, in actuality it only plays one in three songs. Would you think that was a suitable product? Would you think one in three was a suitable service? Why is school any different?


Another thing is that when a student is outside the classroom environment, they possibly have more time and space to think about the work, perhaps find other theories and understandings of it. Inside the classroom, it can often be loud and noisy with people constantly talking. Just a thought there.
Well, harking back to my days in school, when we did independent study during class time we had to be quiet. If we needed to work with other students then we whispered so as not to disturb the rest of the class. A teacher remained in the room and would keep order but during the time they would be doing other things: their paperwork, marking, etc. They were on hand in case of a need to clarify any queries. If you needed to use the library then you could ask the teacher if you could use the library. If you had a decent track record you could work in the library, but if you went to the library and slacked then the next time you’d have to do the work in class. It is possible to do independent study within the school environment in an ordered fashion. Or at least it used to be anyway. But there’s also a skill in learning to phase out other peoples’ noise and still continue with your own work. It’s not exactly quiet in the work environment either!


These latter schools though, are the public ones that don't expect much of students. They don't have homework expected of them much, they don't have much expected of them at all, and they get more time to do what they like. But it isn't going to help them succeed in life.

That’s an interesting point sprinks: define success? In fact, I think I’ll set up a different thread for that discussion.

Let me give you an example. I had a friend who, sadly, passed away not that long ago. He was one of those nice guys, not too bright, definitely not academic. He did his job well but did not excel at it. He was never going to be a Company Director. He had a small house, not a great deal of money, a wife, a son and a daughter. He was the kind of person that made you smile, he always listened, he was fair and he was reasonable. He told the worst jokes. Maybe no one had any great expectations of him in the work place. Did that make him an ‘unsuccessful’ person? You know, this guy he achieved little academically, he made no great waves in the business world. He didn’t invent anything and his name won’t go down in the history books. Heck, he didn’t even live that long. But you know there were 400 people at his funeral all crying and laughing and sharing stories and feeling aggrieved at his loss. I’d say that made him a pretty big success in life.

The value of a life has to be measured by more than just grades and academic achievement. By more than the dollar signs in your account at the end of every month. Or so I think, anyway. I recently read something about three great modern British writers that passed away in the past year: Adrian Mitchell, Harold Pinter and Bernard Crick. All three were politically engaged writers but of Mitchell in particular it was said:

But in terms of spreading good values, getting people to laugh and feel angry for the right reasons, it may be that Mitchell mattered most. Across the country there are people who have been influenced by Mitchell's socialist, pacifist and kindly values. We have plenty of cleverness. We need a bit of heart.
We certainly need a bit of heart. It’s as important in our development as human beings to have some human contact which is not about ‘doing’, which is not about ‘achieving’. I think homework, especially in the teenage years, really erodes that.


Our school has a trip around Europe this year. Year 12 students are not allowed to go because we have too much work to do. Is that fair?
no, I think it’s bonkers! You shouldn’t have so much work to do that you can’t have any kind of life outside. There is education and there is education you’d learn so much more about life spending time abroad than doing homework assignments, I can guarantee it.

[TheInsomniac]

Who needs education when you look as good as me!

[kandaurov]

I'm not saying that kids should spend their lives doing homework, I just don't see how you can possibly conceive to do away with it altogether. I like to feel productive, you see. Sure, I like to be lazy every now and then, but after a couple of days I start feeling worthless and wasteful. For me, work ethic translates into discipline, which involves having the irksome bureaucratic affairs in order, doing landry when you have to, cooking proper meals every day. Doing homework is a way of developing this sense of responsibility. It's starting to deal with tasks which may not be very pleasant but are benefitial for you, at the very least in the long run. I insist, however, that this should be kept, in the early stages, to 30 minutes or so.


I'm not actually dismissing the idea of work ethic, only the version of work ethic that involves doing things by rote, without challenge, without reflection. The idea that 'just doing something' is the most important thing.

Agreed. But if you read my posts, you will see that I argue for meaningful homework assignments. I'm not willing to defend how it's done now, I'm willing to defend the here quite contested necessity of there being homeworks.


So you struggled adapting to homework. Who wouldn’t? Did you have any problems getting the work done you needed to get done in your class time? Probably not. So you could hit a deadline. However, as your school work started to eat into time which you were already using for other purposes you had trouble adapting to this. School work took over your life. I’m not surprised you had trouble adapting to that.

It didn't take over my life, I just wasn't responsible enough to do it on time. I was lazy, that quality which you aphoristically expressed as being primordial in the beginning of your reply. I was lazy because I didn't do a little bit of work every day, and decided to leave it all to the very end - alas, still do. We must have method. Having a bit of method doesn't hurt you when your profession is being a student.


How does it prepare you for work life? As I mentioned before, I don’t bring work home. Maybe I work for a progressive company (I doubt it, I work for an Insurance Company!) but there’s an acknowledgement in my business that to get the best from employees you need happy employees. Rested employees.

It prepares you for working life because it helps you develop method, organisation skills, work ethic, whatever you may call it.

The last bit seems to be comparing workers to students. Very well, but how would 30 minutes every day prevent kids from being happy and rested?


In fact often the ones that do have transferable skills are the ones who have conducted activities outside their academic schooling: hobbies, volunteering, part time jobs, groups/clubs, whatever.

How would 30 minutes every day prevent kids from having hobbies and activities?


But I’d still guarantee that those people learn significantly more in their first year of practice than in 4 years of study. Education goes beyond academia.

Ah, the famous school of life. We're going a bit off-topic here, but let me tackle this one, a favourite of mine, resorting to personal experience:

I studied German 5 years in Portugal before going to Germany for a year. My grammar knowledge was excellent, so were my comprehension skills, but my vocabulary, my intonation and my speech mechanisms were seriously lacking. All three of these skyrocketed during the year I was there. So people come to me and say, "well, why bother learning then? Why not just putting people in the country where the language is spoken?" Cultural immersion in a foreign country is vital to learn a language, but the grammar I was taught was the foundation that allowed me to build my language skills. There are people who went to Germany with no grammar knowledge. Sure, they can speak fluently - but they have no idea why they do Endstellung there and Umstellung here, and will not be able to rationalise their way through a novel phrase the way someone with grammar knowledge would. Not to mention the mistake-ridden writing, of course.

This to say that, without the 4 years of study you mentioned (in my case 5 ;)), that year of practice would be much less effective. With both theory and practice you are complete, but you really need both.


My question is why we value academia above all other forms of education: social, emotional, spiritual, physical?

You see, here's the problem - I'm thinking of pursuing the academic life, so I see things through a different perspective. I understand your point, but again you are rallying against the prevalent view and not necessarily the one I'm expressing, which includes homework (I still can't believe you think there should be no homework whatsoever! if that's what you're arguing, which I think it is) but doesn't promote it above extra-curricular activities, for example.

[kasie]

Can I comment as an ex-teacher?

I didn't give homework. I thought the school day (9.00 to 3.30) was long enough for Primary School children, too long for some of my five year olds who sometimes fell asleep in the afternoon. I thought children were too tired to be setting about a new learning task after an unrelenting school day at that age. I never tried to teach anything new in the afternoon - I taught new things in the mornings when the children were fresh and kept the afternoons for revision/repetition, Art, Craft, PE, play (Play?? In school?? Oh, yes - but that's another topic entirely.) I encouraged the children to take home books to read, not just the 'reading scheme' but library books, reference books for subjects that caught their imagination, and when I taught older children (7 - 9 yrs) I would set a spelling and maths task on a Monday to be tested on Friday (in an era when 'tests' were much frowned upon). However, I retired from teaching twenty years ago - since then, the National Curriculum has accelerated the rot in British Education, teachers are no longer treated as professionals who know what they are doing, the education of our children is dictated by Civil Servants in Whitehall and teachers merely do as they are instructed (or their money gets cut off), including, I believe, the setting of homework. Am I glad I got out when I did? You bet!

Having said that, I 'd like to think all parents took their responsiblities as deeply as Fifth - and had the time after their long working day to spend quality time with their children (in itself an indictment of the 'system' and the control of the 'work ethic' in our society) then the setting of homework would not be an issue, schools could assume that all children were returning to a home that continued and expanded the forming of young minds and personalities. And homework has a place in education, as so many posters have pointed out, but not, I feel, for children as young as 5 and 9. Yes, as a teacher, I did 'homework' in the form of lesson preparation etc, but I regarded myself as a 'professional' and as such, worked until the job was done to the best of my professional ability. I didn't bring my work home when I worked in industry (unless being married to the boss counts!)

re: spelling ability - never had a blank moment, especially when tired and stressed, when no matter how you spell a word, it looks wrong? What a missed teaching opportunity: Look, children, even I need to use a dictionary occasionally..... :D

[kandaurov]

Wish there were more teachers like Kasie and more parents like Fifth!

Kasie here did put me in perspective: in every post I've written I always had in mind education from 5th to 7th grade. Now I realise that the original post is really about primary school, as the children in question are 5 and 9 years old. Well, if you're willing to contest homework assignment in the 5th to 7th grade, do read and reply to my posts :p

(though I do think, like Scher, that weekend homework wouldn't kill them. Like writing a composition, for example.)

[TheFifthElement]

Oh kandaurov!

Now I realise that the original post is really about primary school, as the children in question are 5 and 9 years old.

All that education and you still can't read the OP ;) (sorry, couldn't resist!)


Well, if you're willing to contest homework assignment in the 5th to 7th grade, do read and reply to my posts :p
how old is 5th - 7th grade? If you tell me then I'll definitely take you on :D

Kasie, you've said a lot of sound things, I completely agree with what you've said. In the main I object to the excessiveness and, often, inappropriateness of homework. My kids are pretty good at occupying their own time in constructive ways and sometimes the homework really gets in the way of their true independent study. And yes, I completely agree with what you've said here:

However, I retired from teaching twenty years ago - since then, the National Curriculum has accelerated the rot in British Education, teachers are no longer treated as professionals who know what they are doing, the education of our children is dictated by Civil Servants in Whitehall and teachers merely do as they are instructed (or their money gets cut off), including, I believe, the setting of homework.

How teachers have become administrators of children in the classroom, and parents are becoming administrators of their children in the home. And no one gets any kind of say in what is right and what is good. As a parent I find the difference between my schooling (which will have been when you were a teacher - everything you said sounded so familiar to me!) and that which my children receive now to be a gulf in which common sense and reason have become lost under a great sea of paperwork, stats, admin and spin. Bonkers!

Slightly off subject but I have a really good example of the craziness of NC in my son's maths lessons. He was learning long addition. Now, he's pretty good at maths, it's one of his best subjects, but he was struggling with long addition. So my husband helped him with his work. He had a problem like this:

123 + 275 =

and he had to answer it. My husband showed him to do it like this:
123 +
275

showing him how to add the units, then the tens, then the hundreds and carrying it forward. Of course he mastered it straight away but he said he'd been told he had to do it in the linear form. My husband asked about this at school and the teacher told him that the linear form is now the prescribed method of teaching, and they have to teach it this way in the classroom. They are not permitted to teach it any other way. Her view was that many children find the second method (which was the method I learned) easier to grasp. Some prefer linear. It would seem sensible to allow the teaching professional to adapt the method of teaching to the learning style of the child. But they're not permitted to. I think this is completely mad!!!

Hey aBIGsheep!

Montessori?
I didn't know what Montessori was so I looked it up. Yes, I think there's a lot of merit in that. Focusing on the importance of self driven learning which a large proportion of children's 'play' really is. Interesting :D

[kandaurov]

Education didn't cure my ADD ;)

5th starts when you're 10/11. My argument is post #40.

Quick note on the addition issue: we'd actually write both ways, the second method being the only way in which it makes sense to solve the problem. What I mean is that the linear thing isn't even a method, it's just a formal way of presenting the problem, whereas the vertical presentation is the way you solve it. My guess is that that teacher's obviously pedagogically impaired and we shouldn't generalise about teachers based on her preposterous way of teaching :)

[1n50mn14]

I think homework is silly, and I am not just saying that as a (former) student. Even small children and teenagers have LIVES, that become very difficult to live between a)school and b)homework. I agree, it should be completed at school, and there should be enough time in the school day for it! School becomes extremely prominent in young lives. Too prominent. School shouldn't be a child's entire life. It should be a part of it, but remember at that age, being completely enveloped by school?

[sprinks]

Hey sprinks, I’m very much enjoying debating with you. I hope this doesn’t come across in all the wrong way.

Oh that's fine :). I was worried I might start sounding angry and annoyed but it's just because I can get fired up easy, especially when it's something I'm passionate about.



In the example you’ve used, which I’ve trimmed down rather a lot, I’d say your school was not fit for purpose and should not have been opened until it was ready to receive and educate the students with the adequate resources already in place. I don’t blame or fault the school. I blame the system that allows the school to be inadequately resourced. Imagine if you bought an MP3 player which was supposed to play MP3 files that you uploaded to it from your computer. However, in actuality it only plays one in three songs. Would you think that was a suitable product? Would you think one in three was a suitable service? Why is school any different?
It had to be opened. There aren't all that many schools in our area, and the population is getting very big. Also, they had been planning the school for at least 3 years before it opened, as in getting the community aware of it and coming up with uniform etc., and those original plans were very different to what happened, but due to board issues and whatnot it all happened differently, and was not the schools fault - they had to go ahead with what they had.


Well, harking back to my days in school, when we did independent study during class time we had to be quiet. If we needed to work with other students then we whispered so as not to disturb the rest of the class. A teacher remained in the room and would keep order but during the time they would be doing other things: their paperwork, marking, etc. They were on hand in case of a need to clarify any queries. If you needed to use the library then you could ask the teacher if you could use the library. If you had a decent track record you could work in the library, but if you went to the library and slacked then the next time you’d have to do the work in class. It is possible to do independent study within the school environment in an ordered fashion. Or at least it used to be anyway. But there’s also a skill in learning to phase out other peoples’ noise and still continue with your own work. It’s not exactly quiet in the work environment either!
Yes, we do have similar things in place, but the only thing here is that there are so many individual examples. Study classes are to be like test conditions unless you whisper to someone who needs help. But then there are teachers like my media teacher who just lets the class run riot, we have strict rules normally but in that class people are on phones, on YouTube and MySpace, taking photos, not doing work. And many students have complained, the ones who want to learn in that class. But nothing can be done about it.


That’s an interesting point sprinks: define success? In fact, I think I’ll set up a different thread for that discussion.

Let me give you an example. I had a friend who, sadly, passed away not that long ago. He was one of those nice guys, not too bright, definitely not academic. He did his job well but did not excel at it. He was never going to be a Company Director. He had a small house, not a great deal of money, a wife, a son and a daughter. He was the kind of person that made you smile, he always listened, he was fair and he was reasonable. He told the worst jokes. Maybe no one had any great expectations of him in the work place. Did that make him an ‘unsuccessful’ person? You know, this guy he achieved little academically, he made no great waves in the business world. He didn’t invent anything and his name won’t go down in the history books. Heck, he didn’t even live that long. But you know there were 400 people at his funeral all crying and laughing and sharing stories and feeling aggrieved at his loss. I’d say that made him a pretty big success in life.

Basically doing anything more than just turning to drugs and violence. I used the term loosely because I was rushing, but basically those kids are on a fast track to nowhere, but as we have to complete Year 10 and can only leave if we have an apprenticeship, they have to go somewhere.


The value of a life has to be measured by more than just grades and academic achievement. By more than the dollar signs in your account at the end of every month. Or so I think, anyway.

Yes I agree with that, and I'm sure nothing I have said has contradicted that thought. If it has, it was not intended.



We certainly need a bit of heart. It’s as important in our development as human beings to have some human contact which is not about ‘doing’, which is not about ‘achieving’. I think homework, especially in the teenage years, really erodes that.

Okay, I'm sorry but I really don't understand how that works. There is still time for other activities even with the insane amount of work we do. It is up to the individual to work out what is important to them, some will put friends and social life first, others will put school first. But that doesn't mean either decision results in the complete exclusion of the other.
In the earlier years, and some of my friends are planning to do it again this year, we had study groups with our friends after school. That way we got to hang out as well as learn with each other.

Basically the upper high schools, and most schools in general, are trying to help and push the kids as far as they can so they can do the best they can and do what they would like in school. Over here, the high schools are not only trying to help the kids achieve their potential, they're also competing to get the best TER results. Higher TER results = better reputation = more students = more money = more resources. All the kids with high TERs are either incredibly brilliant or have studied very very hard. If you don't do homework during school years, then come the final year and TEE exams students will not know what study skills work best for them and it will disadvantage them.


no, I think it’s bonkers! You shouldn’t have so much work to do that you can’t have any kind of life outside. There is education and there is education you’d learn so much more about life spending time abroad than doing homework assignments, I can guarantee it.
But spending time in Europe will not help out TER results. Some students are doing non-TEE classes, so they will not get a TER, and could possibly go without being disadvantaged. But for those who are aiming to get a TER and go to uni, it is important to do the best we can, and missing weeks of school in no way helps that. Last year was the first school trip to Canberra, the nations capital. 40 Year 10 and 11 students went on it. It was an educational trip, just as the Europe one is. Neither trip is about learning about life. The Canberra one had always been planned, it was the arts department that wanted to have a Europe trip.
As a lot of my friends say, they wouldn't go anyhow, they'd rather go on their own terms and see what they want to see.

[TheFifthElement]

I understand your point, but again you are rallying against the prevalent view and not necessarily the one I'm expressing, which includes homework (I still can't believe you think there should be no homework whatsoever! if that's what you're arguing, which I think it is) but doesn't promote it above extra-curricular activities, for example.
I’m definitely saying no homework. I’m arguing for an overhaul of the school day which involves setting a reasonable amount of independent study time within the school day, enabling children to separate ‘work’ and home and also giving teachers a bit of breathing time during their working day in which they can do the essential admin tasks in support of their job. So that teachers can have a home life too. Am I rallying against the prevalent view? Sadly it appears I'm not quite that unique:

http://www.atl.org.uk/publications-and-resources/report/report-archive/all-work-and-no-play-april-2008.asp

http://www.atl.org.uk/education-news/Top-school-cuts-homework-time/%7B33DFE4EC-B5DC-4F57-80D0-7C53C5296AB7%7D

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/the-big-question-are-children-set-too-much-homework-and-does-it-hinder-their-education-434212.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/1999/aug/17/schools.news

http://www.newstatesman.com/200001310018


I'm not saying that kids should spend their lives doing homework, I just don't see how you can possibly conceive to do away with it altogether. I like to feel productive, you see.

Well, there I could say you were lazy ;) if you want to feel productive you can fill your own time with self motivated activity. Why do you need someone else to tell you how to make your time productive at home? My son studies lego very intently. He can’t study that in school. Home work is still directed learning. True independent study doesn’t need someone else to set the questions for you.


Doing homework is a way of developing this sense of responsibility. It's starting to deal with tasks which may not be very pleasant but are benefitial for you, at the very least in the long run. I insist, however, that this should be kept, in the early stages, to 30 minutes or so.

Well there are plenty of things to do in the home environment which also help to develop a sense of responsibility. When I was a child I did the washing up, helped with the house cleaning at weekend. I had to keep my own room tidy, and take care of other people’s possessions (i.e. not rip the heads off my sister’s dolls!). I had to take care of my personal hygiene: wash my face, brush my teeth, wash my hair. I would go to the shop for Mum. Sometimes I babysat for my sister or my neighbour. I would house sit to for neighbours or look after their pets when they went on holiday. I did a paper round. I helped in the garden. When I was older I cooked. There’s a whole host of ways in which responsibility can be learned and reinforced without it involving prescribed learning.


The last bit seems to be comparing workers to students. Very well, but how would 30 minutes every day prevent kids from being happy and rested?
No, I was comparing people to people, regardless of profession or vocation. Being a student is just another form of work. If it’s just 30 minutes why not simply incorporate it into the school day? Have the school day end at 4pm instead of 3:30pm. What’s the benefit of bringing it home? Here you say:


How would 30 minutes every day prevent kids from having hobbies and activities?
OK, turn these two statements on their head a little. What difference would it make if I sent 30 minutes of housework into school with my children? Do you think that would interfere with their school work? I’m going to go for broke here and assume you’ll say yes. In which case, isn’t it equally true that state dictated learning (otherwise known as school work) interferes with an individual’s home education, their home life?


Oh that's fine :). I was worried I might start sounding angry and annoyed but it's just because I can get fired up easy, especially when it's something I'm passionate about.
No worries sprinks, I think your passion for your school life comes across well, and is very admirable, actually.


It had to be opened. There aren't all that many schools in our area, and the population is getting very big. Also, they had been planning the school for at least 3 years before it opened, as in getting the community aware of it and coming up with uniform etc., and those original plans were very different to what happened, but due to board issues and whatnot it all happened differently, and was not the schools fault - they had to go ahead with what they had.
Don’t get me wrong sprinks, I’m not blaming the school. But an educational system that allows schools to open with inadequate resource is just flawed.


But then there are teachers like my media teacher who just lets the class run riot, we have strict rules normally but in that class people are on phones, on YouTube and MySpace, taking photos, not doing work. And many students have complained, the ones who want to learn in that class. But nothing can be done about it.
Oh, I don’t like that defeatist attitude sprinks ;) Actually there’s plenty can be done about it. Paraphrasing what you’ve said here it seems that, in this particular example, you have a teacher who struggles to maintain order in class. Apparently the solution to this problem is sending work home but that, to me, is like trying to fix a broken leg with a dab of TCP and a sticking plaster. If a teacher isn’t performing in the classroom the solution is to resolve the issue with the teacher. It may be that the teacher needs more support, or some additional training. It may be that the teacher needs some assistance with the students who are disruptive in the class – why not enlist parents as allies? Often teachers underestimate the value of parents working with them on educational issues. Now you could say that a lot of parents don’t care and I think that’s a fair criticism. But you mentioned that your school is a private school so I’d be surprised if there were many parents that wouldn’t be willing to support a teacher against disruptive behaviour in class. It may be that the teacher just isn’t up to the job. Either way the answer lies within the classroom, not outside it.


Basically doing anything more than just turning to drugs and violence. I used the term loosely because I was rushing, but basically those kids are on a fast track to nowhere, but as we have to complete Year 10 and can only leave if we have an apprenticeship, they have to go somewhere.
Ah, okay. But I’m assuming you don’t think there’s a link between lack of homework and drugs and violence?


Okay, I'm sorry but I really don't understand how that works. There is still time for other activities even with the insane amount of work we do. It is up to the individual to work out what is important to them, some will put friends and social life first, others will put school first. But that doesn't mean either decision results in the complete exclusion of the other.
Okay, maybe I’m missing something here, or maybe things are different in Australia, I don’t know. As I understand it, at the age of 14 my children can expect to do a school day of 5 ½ hours (that's after taking out an hour for lunch) plus 2 ½ hours homework a night, plus probably a bit extra on top for weekends. That’s an 8 hour day or a 40 hour week, maybe plus a bit. That’s more than my working week. At the age of 14 I don’t expect any of my kids to work longer hours than I do.

And how is that time structured? They do from 09:00 – 15:30 at school. Then they come home which takes, say, ½ hour. So they get home at 16:00, get changed, maybe have a snack and then get down to some homework from, say, 16:30 – 17:30 then they break for dinner. So dinner takes maybe half an hour to an hour and at 18:30 they then have to work until 20:00. So I guess after 20:00 they have time for some social activity, if they’re not too brain numbed to do it. And where in that schedule is there family time? Dinner wolfed down at breakneck speed so they can get back on with the grind. What if one day we go swimming, or go visit a sick Grandparent? The next day they’ve got 5 hours homework. Sorry, it just seems pretty imbalanced to me.


The value of a life has to be measured by more than just grades and academic achievement. By more than the dollar signs in your account at the end of every month. Or so I think, anyway.


Yes I agree with that, and I'm sure nothing I have said has contradicted that thought. If it has, it was not intended.

See, I’m getting mixed messages here, because you say as per the above, but you also say:


Over here, the high schools are not only trying to help the kids achieve their potential, they're also competing to get the best TER results. Higher TER results = better reputation = more students = more money = more resources.
and


But spending time in Europe will not help out TER results.
which seems, to me, to place grades/results above everything else. Or am I misinterpreting something here?


It was an educational trip, just as the Europe one is. Neither trip is about learning about life.
I think spending time in another country, experiencing another culture teaches plenty about life whether that is the direct intention or otherwise. But I understand why people would rather choose to take those trips under their own terms. I guess the point, for me, is choice. Having too much curriculum based work should never be a barrier to more experiential based learning.

[jon1jt]

Jon1t, I've long admired your contributions to the Poetry section and I did appreciate your thorough reply.

Thank you.



It was, however, very selective in the quotes chosen to reply to, and you adamantly refused to establish common ground when clearly I tried to, which seems to reflect a desire to have a skirmish rather than having a 'give and take' discussion.

Skirmishes, I've had some long ago on here, but I've retired from that. Skirmishes tire me as do long-winded posts.

I simply read your last paragraph which wasn't persuasive in that, while it qualifies your position some, you still speak of homework as tantamount to a person' success, and that's very silly.


When I read your post I thought I was reading a educational system dystopia.

It's only a dystopia if you're brainwashed by the system its challenging.



Now I know some people do teach like that, but let's not generalise. I've had excellent teachers who taught me a lot of things I still know and use today, who were dynamic and engaging, who made me think before I answered, and who assigned me meaningful homework.


I don't suggest that there is no good that comes out of public education. One equally stands to learn something at a job shoveling horse manure. As it stands, the cost of a public education far outweighs its benefits.


Imagine you had to do 30 minutes of meaningful homework every day (which is more or less what I had to do in basic education, I don't know about those seemingly horrible American teachers you speak of). 30 minutes! Just to help you crystalise what you've learned and to prepare you for later life, where you'll have to work autonomously and outside the '9 to 5' period.

Prepare us for later life in what sense, kandarouv? Students attend school an average of 6-7 hours a day, not to mention that the vast majority participate in after school clubs and volunteer work because many are mortified that if they don't it will hurt their chances later of getting into a competitive college.


If it's 30 minutes of meaningful exercise, do you still reprove of it?

I still disapprove of it. "Meaningful" exercise as defined by whom? The curriculum board? The teachers? Administrators with their M.Eds MAEds, Ed.M? Most educators sail through these overpriced certification programs and at the same time are as stirred up about reading and writing as a cess pool.


I tried to overlook your aphorism in the last sentence, but I can't. You clearly know better than what is in that sweeping statement, where you attack education even though you're a tutor. I understand that you're not quite in the dreaded "system", but how can you, being a tutor, say that education is antithetical to learning? Very dystopian indeed.

How is it that tutoring falls outside the framework of "education"? Consider that students wouldn't need me if the system did its job. Anyway, I am no longer tutoring, and still, I don't see how my lack of credentials and experience in teaching equate to having no insight into that system. Enlighten me.

I guess now is that golden moment that I'm supposed to lay forth any degrees I hold or the colleges I attended and the positions I've held in order for you to feel me authentic. And I'm just not going to do that.

[Zee.]

Sorry, excuse me, what!? The ability to spell does not detract from the ability to teach. The purpose of teachers isn't to teach you to spell but to encourage you to learn to spell big differants, though it is a differance of semantics. Teachers are inducers of learning and are not without faults, now obviously I have my own reasons for getting annoyed with those comments but that aside surly a teacher who plants a love of a subject or learning in general in students is better than one who simply a wlaking a text book?

If you are teaching English and you're asking your students how to spell a simple word because you yourself can not - then yeah, I think you're a little inadequate as a teacher filling that responsibility.

[jon1jt]

If you are teaching English and you're asking your students how to spell a simple word because you yourself can not - then yeah, I think you're a little inadequate as a teacher filling that responsibility.

If I may just add to lim's point, I think we should also consider what parents might think if they were informed that the individuals teaching their children have difficulty spelling. I don't think it should matter if the teacher's subject is home economics or phys ed (who teach in part) they are members of the education system, which is the most precious of all institutions, though you wouldn't know it in America.

Nightshade calls into question the entire foundation of what "educator" means differentiating the art of teaching from the substance of what is taught. But the two are one and the same, and no matter how great of a teacher you are, if you can't spell or write or read, then teaching is not for you. Teaching is, above all, about language. Unfortunately, teachers are getting away with it because they wear the golden crown provided by state certification programs.

[kandaurov]

I’m definitely saying no homework. I’m arguing for an overhaul of the school day which involves setting a reasonable amount of independent study time within the school day, enabling children to separate ‘work’ and home and also giving teachers a bit of breathing time during their working day in which they can do the essential admin tasks in support of their job. So that teachers can have a home life too.


Am I rallying against the prevalent view? Sadly it appears I'm not quite that unique

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly: I meant that you're rallying against what is actually happening (as opposed to what I wish were happening, to my idea of education).


Well, there I could say you were lazy ;) if you want to feel productive you can fill your own time with self motivated activity. Why do you need someone else to tell you how to make your time productive at home?

I don't. I brought up that productive/lazy dichotomy to emphasise my argument that homework fosters work ethics which result in self-realisation through goal fulfillment later in life.


My son studies lego very intently. He can’t study that in school. Home work is still directed learning.

A bit straw man argument here - I'm a fan of pedagogic toys like legos myself, and nowhere do I say that homework should replace activities like playing with legos.


Well there are plenty of things to do in the home environment which also help to develop a sense of responsibility.
...
There’s a whole host of ways in which responsibility can be learned and reinforced without it involving prescribed learning.

Sure there are! You forget, however, that school nowadays has to do what parents don't. Due to too many factors to mention, children negligence is skyrocketing, and school has to be the one to create responsible social beings. Not every one is as lucky as you and I have been, you know.


No, I was comparing people to people, regardless of profession or vocation. Being a student is just another form of work. If it’s just 30 minutes why not simply incorporate it into the school day? Have the school day end at 4pm instead of 3:30pm. What’s the benefit of bringing it home?

Dearest, that's exactly what's happening! I can only speak for Portugal, but here we have some hours in the schedule (don't know how many times a week though) specifically for students to work on their semester project and homework. Even in my days, where no such thing existed, I would sometimes do homework while waiting for the teacher to come to class, for example, but I can't expect everyone to be a nerd like I was ;)

By the way, try suggesting stretching the school day to the PA. They'll go insane. They already think children spend too much time at school as it is - which is probably true - and if kids are to have less hours they have to do homework, otherwise they'll only learn three quarters of what there is in the programme.


OK, turn these two statements on their head a little. What difference would it make if I sent 30 minutes of housework into school with my children? Do you think that would interfere with their school work? I’m going to go for broke here and assume you’ll say yes. In which case, isn’t it equally true that state dictated learning (otherwise known as school work) interferes with an individual’s home education, their home life?

I can see you're a concerned parent. Don't you like to participate in your children's school education? Don't you like to give them a helping hand when they need it? I'm going to assume you do. Homework is a good opportunity for that. If there were no homework, how would you link school and family? Perhaps you'd like to do that, so you'd ask him: "So, are you having any problems at school? Maths, eh? Divisions, is it? Well, would you like me to help you with that?" And you'd sit with him and help him out. Now I ask: isn't that like homework? And isn't it important to a) cement your relationship with them, and b) understand how he gets along with each subject and whether he may need any special attention in any department (I mean ADD, dyslexia, or even just difficulty on a subject)?


Bonus argument: the importance of homework has also to do with consolidating knowledge. Make short-term memory turn into long-term memory. Unless your kids are autistic savants, they'll need to do more than just sit through lectures to interiorise the greater part of the knowledge being passed on to them. This is where it differs from working: school doesn't end after the bell goes off. Learning is a continuous process which sometimes requires repitition and practice. Maths, for example. You're not going to learn it if you don't practice, and the tiny time slot given to maths just isn't enough to explain the theory and doing exercises over and over again. The homework here works as a crucial complement to the mostly theoretical class.

[Zee.]

Eh, to be honest. I don't mind homework, because I enjoy learning and school is something I see as enjoyable. At times.

[Scheherazade]

Maybe some of those "terrible" teachers -especially the one who could not spell "anonymous"- were not given spelling homeworks (spelling tasks maybe?). Had they been, surelythey could have been better teachers today!

:p

[kandaurov]

I simply read your last paragraph which wasn't persuasive in that, while it qualifies your position some, you still speak of homework as tantamount to a person' success, and that's very silly.

Probably over-emphasised its importance there, but I do think it is important.


I don't suggest that there is no good that comes out of public education. One equally stands to learn something at a job shoveling horse manure. As it stands, the cost of a public education far outweighs its benefits.

I don't seem to understand what follows this. Is there a sound alternative to public school?


Prepare us for later life in what sense, kandarouv? Students attend school an average of 6-7 hours a day, not to mention that the vast majority participate in after school clubs and volunteer work because many are mortified that if they don't it will hurt their chances later of getting into a competitive college.

The sense I meant was the work ethic and discipline it instills. And yes, I know over there (and in the UK too, so I've read) the pressure is incredible. I come from a country where that is not yet so.


I still disapprove of it. "Meaningful" exercise as defined by whom? The curriculum board? The teachers? Administrators with their M.Eds MAEds, Ed.M? Most educators sail through these overpriced certification programs and at the same time are as stirred up about reading and writing as a cess pool.

Wow.
As defined by teachers, yes. Usually teachers are good enough to give meaningful assignments. I'm sure you beg to differ, but I think we'll have to leave it at that, since neither of us can really prove our points, it's a matter of opinion and personal experience.


How is it that tutoring falls outside the framework of "education"? Consider that students wouldn't need me if the system did its job. Anyway, I am no longer tutoring, and still, I don't see how my lack of credentials and experience in teaching equates to having no insight into that system. Enlighten me.

I guess now is that golden moment that I'm supposed to lay forth any degrees I hold or the colleges I attended and the positions I've held in order for you to feel me authentic. And I'm just not going to do that.

I'm sorry if I came across like that, you've completely misunderstood me! You talk about the "system" in such a derisive way that I thought I was actually satisfying you by setting you aside it (besides, you think the system is horrible, but you take offence when I suggest you're not part of it? I confess I'm terribly confused). And I can't even begin to understand where you inferred that I think you don't have the qualifications to talk about the educational system - I've never been more than a student, for Christ's sake!

[kandaurov]

Lima, my sympathy's off to you. Used to have an English teacher just like that. We had to correct her all the time, and such undermining of authority led her to be quite the tyrannt. Her surreal method of evaluation (average of both tests and then downgrading it twice: A- plus B- minus 2 equals C+) has been alive and well for at least 10 years now. I used to wonder every year how they didn't sack her. Turns out she's the Dean's wife. The whole situation is the representation of the very worst about our public service.

[Zee.]

Mhm, I know I said they're only people and they are, but they hold a certain responsibility. And to me it's a big one. The sort of, " so what if she can't spell... "
feelings towards my comment about her inability to spell the word anonymous seem quite absurd to me. Absurd because I don't know why people find that acceptable. I sure as hell wouldn't want my children, the imaginary ones that is, being taught by someone who couldn't spell such a word and was in turn asking them how to.

I mean sure, you make your mistakes. But use the damn dictionary, don't ask your students. I don't like the idea of my potential future being in the hands of someone who is asking me how to spell something.

[kandaurov]

Wait! She actually asked you? :eek:
That's insane! It's just as though she asked you not to have any faith or trust in (even respect for) her as a teacher. I mean it's her native language and she's teaching it... I'd definitely not reccommend you to choose either of these teachers for your imaginary children.

[Zee.]

Haha yes,

a few years back too.

[oopsycandy]

As a parent of an 11 year old and a 13 year old I can appreciate both sides of the argument to some extent. My major problem with the education system in England is the actual content of the curriculum and the way that schools are graded in tables by exam results. My children never really had homework to speak of at primary school (5-10yrs) they were told to expect 2 hours a day and more at weekends when they went to secondary school. Due to the results table scheme here there school works slightly different to most so they start studying GCSEs at 13 rather than 14/15 this allows for retakes of poor results and means more work in the first two years.
My problem is that there never seems to be enough time to do anything in schools today and the time is used poorly. My daughter at 8 had a lesson a week to learn 'joined up writing' but did no spelling or grammar practice at all! I have an 11 year old with a measured reading age of 14.5yrs according to her teacher who spent three entire weeks in her final year at primary school practicing answering SAT exam questions rather than revising the subjects properly, she cried and worried herself sick over the whole thing.
Deciding what and when children should learn is an incredibly complicated thing but I think an awful lot of children would benefit from a more personalised targeted approach rather than piles of homework.
My 11 year old came home last week and told me she spent her health and social lesson being a sperm! Apparently half the class were sperm half the class were eggs and they role played swimming up and fertilising the egg.
I don't consider that a productive use of time in any way whatsoever and I have and will continue to occasionally write notes to teachers explaining that my kids haven't done their homework and to contact me if it is a problem.

rant over :D

[sprinks]

Oh, I don’t like that defeatist attitude sprinks ;) Actually there’s plenty can be done about it. Paraphrasing what you’ve said here it seems that, in this particular example, you have a teacher who struggles to maintain order in class. Apparently the solution to this problem is sending work home but that, to me, is like trying to fix a broken leg with a dab of TCP and a sticking plaster. If a teacher isn’t performing in the classroom the solution is to resolve the issue with the teacher. It may be that the teacher needs more support, or some additional training. It may be that the teacher needs some assistance with the students who are disruptive in the class – why not enlist parents as allies? Often teachers underestimate the value of parents working with them on educational issues. Now you could say that a lot of parents don’t care and I think that’s a fair criticism. But you mentioned that your school is a private school so I’d be surprised if there were many parents that wouldn’t be willing to support a teacher against disruptive behaviour in class. It may be that the teacher just isn’t up to the job. Either way the answer lies within the classroom, not outside it.
Teacher shortage = nothing can be done. Not what should be done anywho. There's a lot more to this story than what I can be bothered to type right now because I only just got up and am still tired.



Ah, okay. But I’m assuming you don’t think there’s a link between lack of homework and drugs and violence?

No, not a very strong one anyhow. I have friends who do barely any homework who don't do drugs and aren't violent. It's a little more the other way around. Those kids who are already heavily into such a way of life tend to just give up on school etc. and therefore, don't do homework. But at the same time, I have friends who do drugs that still do homework. It's an individual thing.



Okay, maybe I’m missing something here, or maybe things are different in Australia, I don’t know. As I understand it, at the age of 14 my children can expect to do a school day of 5 ½ hours (that's after taking out an hour for lunch) plus 2 ½ hours homework a night, plus probably a bit extra on top for weekends. That’s an 8 hour day or a 40 hour week, maybe plus a bit. That’s more than my working week. At the age of 14 I don’t expect any of my kids to work longer hours than I do.

And how is that time structured? They do from 09:00 – 15:30 at school. Then they come home which takes, say, ½ hour. So they get home at 16:00, get changed, maybe have a snack and then get down to some homework from, say, 16:30 – 17:30 then they break for dinner. So dinner takes maybe half an hour to an hour and at 18:30 they then have to work until 20:00. So I guess after 20:00 they have time for some social activity, if they’re not too brain numbed to do it. And where in that schedule is there family time? Dinner wolfed down at breakneck speed so they can get back on with the grind. What if one day we go swimming, or go visit a sick Grandparent? The next day they’ve got 5 hours homework. Sorry, it just seems pretty imbalanced to me.

Things in Australia vary from coast to coast, and so all I can tell you honestly is the ways of the west coast. Over here, a 14 year old would be in year 10 (they'd be in year 9 in the eastern states I believe). I can't find my school diary right now but I think in year 8 it's about 1 1/2 hours expected, then in years 9 and 10 it is 2 hours, and then year 11 is 2 1/2 and year 12 is about the same but probably a little more. The only thing is that they are just a guide, in year 8 we got barely anywhere near that amount, we really didn't start getting a lot of homework until perhaps about year 11, when the students are turning 16.

In my art class, we had to do a drawing as a project, it had to be quite big. Mine took 8 hours. About 2 hours of that were at school, 6 or so at home. But that was my decision, and it turned out really well. But that was 6 hours of home life that I could have spent hanging out with friends or whatever. You can have 10 people given the same amount of homework, perhaps 3 wont do it, 5 will, and the other 2 will do it but also do even more, finding out more about whatever it is and coming back with questions for the teacher. Those 3 that didn't do homework will most likely complain about having it in the first place, going on about how stupid it is etc. Those 5 will probably grumble about having to do it but do it anyways; and regardless of what those other 2 people think, others will see them doing all this work and get angry becuase they have too much work, even though it was the students decision. You can't win, all the teachers and parents hear is a large number of students complaining and then the parents complain too, to back up their kids. Everyone has their own opinion on it and I've put mine forth, and this is getting too far away from why we have homework and "what is the purpose and/or benefits of homework?" which was the original question, which I have tried to stay talking about, not talking about "the value of life" which to me, is not what we were talking about, and is what I was referring to when I said nothing I am saying is contradicting that.

[Virgil]

:lol: This thread reminds me of the Pink Floyd song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAe_w9a_IN8&feature=related

come on, school and homework is good for you.



Hey Virgil, that’s a nice story. I bonded with my Dad by helping him with the garden, growing tomatoes and seedlings in his greenhouse.
Actually that's how I bonded with my mother.


We bird-watched. We watched wrestling together and fought and argued and giggled about it afterwards, and shared chinese food. We talked. I bet you did a whole load of stuff like that with your Dad too.
Yes, we talked. When I was older we bonded over wine. ;)


My worry is that when my eldest child reaches 13 his homework load will be so extensive that it will drive a big wedge in our family unit.
I do see your concern. How much homework does he get? More than two hours worth?


How can we have quality time together, especially during his teenage years which are difficult even in the best of situations, when he is constantly tired and spending most of his supposed ‘free time’ doing schoolwork just to get grades?
To be honest I hardly spent any quality time with my parents during my teen years. Friends became so much more of a priority. Ashame I must say, but expanding one's horizons and breaking free of nurse strings (is there such an expression or did I just make that up?) is something boys need to do. Girls too I guess, but I wasn't a girl and so I don't know first hand. ;)


I worry about my 5 year old finding reading demoralising, not because she can’t do it (she’s really doing well) but because by the time we are all home and settled and have eaten dinner and so on it’s 18:30, which is only an hour from her bedtime, she’s tired after a long day working hard at school and somehow it’s just not so easy and she’s rubbing her eyes and finding it hard to concentrate. So she starts to see it as a struggle, which brings us back to jon’s point here (which I’ll quote again ‘cos I really like it :D )
Oh I understand. There just isn't enough time in a day. Perhaps at five she's kind of young for reading. Are we pushing our children too fast? Not having had children I can't answer that.

[librarius_qui]

I didn't read it all, nor do I think I will ... (Never liked homework.)

But, I can say this: as a child, I longed for the day of being an adult, so as to reach a day when I'd have no more homework! ...

Innocent was I to think adults have no homework ... Adult's life is about homework. I'm trying to be an adult, and it's hard! really hard! gasps! :sick:

Anyway, I came here because of the other thread ("whats to be successful?"), and I think that learning is part of the process of being successful. As well as knowing how to be alone. Homework is a lonely task. As an adult, we do have things around to actually do (dishes, dust, laundry, dirt, plants, kids ...), but we also have things that amuse us, and that are part of the work ... (kids, plants, literature, music, playmobil ...)

It's possibly been said, already. Later on (actually, as the days pass by), I'll try to catch up, and read everything ... It's going to be tough! Sprinks is a homework lover (and, in fact, girls seem to like homework always better than boys (...)), and it's going to take time to read everything she wrote! ...

(But don't be sad, Sprinksy ... Boys like way better girls who like doing their homework! ... They're waaaay more annoying, and most boys love annoying girls :D )

Tim intervenes: "Oh ... What a nonsense you are merrily talking about here??!!"


Libri*
:crash:

[sprinks]

It's possibly been said, already. Later on (actually, as the days pass by), I'll try to catch up, and read everything ... It's going to be tough! Sprinks is a homework lover (and, in fact, girls seem to like homework always better than boys (...)), and it's going to take time to read everything she wrote! ...

(But don't be sad, Sprinksy ... Boys like way better girls who like doing their homework! ... They're waaaay more annoying, and most boys love annoying girls :D )

haha thanks Libri :lol: :D. Most of the guys liked me because I did their homework for them! :p :lol:

[Virgil]

haha thanks Libri :lol: :D. Most of the guys liked me because I did their homework for them! :p :lol:

:lol: Where were you when I was going to school? ;)

[jon1jt]

Now kandaurov old sport I am going to combine a couple things you said to keep it simple.


Probably over-emphasised its importance there, but I do think it is important.//The sense I meant was the work ethic and discipline it instills.


I seem to have narrowed our differences to essentially this:

**You believe that homework instills discipline and a work ethic.
(I'm just curious, Kand---are you by chance a Republican?)
**My position is that homework is superfluous and tortuous for students who have to already endure 6-7 hours of schooling five days per week plus after-school clubs and sports, and general study time for quizzes and exams. Discipline comes from the daily routine of going to school, paying attention, participating in class, and performing on written and oral tests.

You believe that students should be provided at least 1/2 hour of homework five days per week since as you see it has having a direct impact on student success. :rolleyes:

How's about I play along and propose an alternative to your mandatory homework scheme even though I am fully aware that the education system is in a state of disrepair?

Okay, we make homework voluntary, allowing students and/or parents to participate in the process by coming up with their own innovative ways to reinforce day to day lessons. Perhaps the teacher would be gracious enough to build it into her grading system as say extra credit or something like that. And for those students who take no active initiative in such assignments, oh well their loss.


As defined by teachers, yes. Usually teachers are good enough to give meaningful assignments.

It's a fact that teachers from social studies to math mostly give homework straight out of the textbook. The basic problem with this is that textbooks suck, so why educators continue to assign work from them leads me to the conclusion that teachers are generally lazy or lack a handle on their subject matter when it comes to devising thoughtful homework and therefore do not deserve to be in the profession.


I'm sure you beg to differ, but I think we'll have to leave it at that, since neither of us can really prove our points, it's a matter of opinion and personal experience.

This is a matter of your opinion---there is plenty of social science performed nationally and globally to back up my larger claim that the public education system as it stands is disfunctional from the top-down as schools consistently churn out students lacking in the basic skills to perform effectively in college in spite of the obscene time they spent at school and with the whole rigamarole of homework.

[Zee.]

It depends on what subjects you're doing too. Like Sprinksy mentioned with her Art. I did Art last year ( dropped it for my final year as the workload was so hefty ) and I really struggled with completing my folios as it required constant attention and work. This year all of my subjects require a lot of writing and i'm okay with that. If i'm sure of my deadlines and i'm given enough time to complete the work - I find it fine. But that's for my age, which as most of you know, tends to lean towards long term assignments and essays. But my little brother for example, he's 10 and his workload, and i'm not even joking you, requires atleast 2 hours every night. It's a joke.

[kandaurov]

You believe that homework instills discipline and a work ethic.(I'm just curious, Kand---are you by chance a Republican?)

Haha, I do come across as a Republican sometimes, others as Democrat, depending on the issue. My politics are essentially centre-left.


You believe that students should be provided at least 1/2 hour of homework five days per week since as you see it has having a direct impact on student success. :rolleyes:

I think that's rather unfair: what I do believe is that doing homework builds character (I sound a lot like Calvin's Dad here, but I'll run the gauntlet) and makes us better persons. The idea of striving to have "success" at an early age, by the way, is much more American than it is southern European.


How's about I play along and propose an alternative to your mandatory homework scheme even though I am fully aware that the education system is in a state of disrepair?

Okay, we make homework voluntary, allowing students and/or parents to participate in the process by coming up with their own innovative ways to reinforce day to day lessons.

That's basically the system in Finnland, I should think. They don't even have exams in some schools there. I'm all for it. They are the gurus of education and achieve great results.

Let me rephrase and clarify my view on homework: as it stands, at least in Portugal, I think homework is vital, because a) families aren't ready for your system (the parents are not interventive, and school sometimes has to prepare the individual for society because the parents won't), and b) the school's administrative structure is also not yet ready to provide essential elements for it such as more and better qualified teachers, etc.

Of course if we talk about utopias it's much easier -- I also think that we should be able to exist without prisons and rehabilitation centres, but, as it stands, they are essential to society. Homework and tests, as it stands, are very important, because they regulate the development of the students' autonomy of study which otherwise would be impossible to ensure due to the unreliability of the family and educational structures


The basic problem with this is that textbooks suck, so why educators continue to assign work from them leads me to the conclusion that teachers are generally lazy or lack a handle on their subject matter when it comes to devising thoughtful homework and therefore do not deserve to be in the profession.

Agreed, and agreed. What I meant was that I believe that teachers can assign meaningful assignments, it's not like I believe that there's an inherent impossibility in the existence of meaningful homework.


This is a matter of your opinion---there is plenty of social science performed nationally and globally to back up my larger claim

See above. You misunderstood my claim: it is possible for teachers to give meaningful assignments; as you've probably realised with this post, I'm not saying the school system is tiptop right now, far from it. But we have to be pragmatic here: lacking better and more innovative teachers and the proper backing of parents, homework is an inevitability, an instrument (as it stands) of great importance indeed.

[TheFifthElement]

I do see your concern. How much homework does he get? More than two hours worth?
Virge, I set something out in post 47 (it’s towards the end!).


we really didn't start getting a lot of homework until perhaps about year 11, when the students are turning 16.
That’s quite a different story to how it is in UK. I don’t think we’re really comparing like with like.


Everyone has their own opinion on it and I've put mine forth, and this is getting too far away from why we have homework and "what is the purpose and/or benefits of homework?" which was the original question
I appreciate that sprinks. My original question was duel edged both ‘what is the purpose/benefit of homework and:

At the end of my working day my time is my time, to do with as I wish. Leisure time, social time, family time, spiritual time, and so on. So why doesn't the same apply to children? Shouldn't school work be completed within the school day,
because the more homework children have the more it bleeds into other aspects of their life. As of yet I’ve seen a lot of explanation of the value of independent study, which I agree with. But just nothing that explains why that has to be done at home. Well, not an explanation which I think is justifiable anyway, which is slightly different. And I suppose it's worth adding that even though I don't think homework should be compulsory, I have no problem with it being optional. If you want to do homework do, if you don't don't. If we want children to be responsible we have to first let them be responsible for themselves. You seem very responsible sprinks and it's been a pleasure debating with you. I hope I haven't annoyed you too much :)


If there were no homework, how would you link school and family? Perhaps you'd like to do that, so you'd ask him: "So, are you having any problems at school? Maths, eh? Divisions, is it? Well, would you like me to help you with that?" And you'd sit with him and help him out. Now I ask: isn't that like homework?
No kandaurov, it’s completely different. Homework is preset by the teacher. I really don’t need a homework sheet to make me take an interest in my children’s lives. They ask me how work was at the end of each day but I don’t whip out a file and say: “here, let’s spend the next ½ hour studying my day.” It’s completely different.

As to how I would link school and family how about talking? A decent parent/teacher meeting on a regular basis will answer a lot of those problems that an ill thought through homework sheet does not.

From what’s been discussed here I think the answer to my original question is that homework is a quick easy answer to a much bigger problem. But it’s an answer which puts the burden firmly on the shoulders of the weakest party in the equation: the children. Things that have been mentioned like inadequately resourced schools, too much government intervention, poor teaching standards or teacher shortages, teachers not being allowed to do their job according to their professional judgement, insufficient time in the school day to complete the prescribed learning, too much diversification in the curriculum including covering areas which should, strictly speaking, be better placed as parental responsibility, lack of parental support/engagement, and so on. That’s a pretty huge problem, but somehow I don’t see homework as the answer to it. Homework doesn’t make teachers better. It doesn’t add resources to the school. It doesn’t engage parents who don’t care, but it does put pressure on those that do and, perhaps more importantly, the children that do. Treating the symptoms not the disease. I’m all for independent study, I think that as children grow older there should be much more coaching and much less teaching. But for all the discussion here none of that explains why this independent study can only be done at home except, perhaps, that the schools haven’t got the resource to do it. I’d rather spend the effort fixing the schools, personally, and the parents that don't care. Let's not forget them :D

[Chava]

There was a crazy year back in highschool, where the students didn't even have to worry about prioritising their homework over their social lives. They had to prioritise which homework they could feasibly finish within the hours of the day. Crazy crazy year, and beastly education.

Homework is great so long as it interests you. School is the job that kids do. I just think that the importance of homework in the younger years has become disproportionate. Kids have to be allowed to be kids. Especially kids that don't enjoy school should not have to deal with homework everyday, because i think it's counterproductive. The more they hate it, the more they hate school, the more they fall behind, the more homework they get.

I wish homework were not such a strong basis for evaluation. I wish i could undue my competitive nature, and my need to be praised with little sticker stars all the time. Lets face it. It's such a phony form of measurement. "My smiley is better than your star!" " oh yeah! I got three ticks!" :)

[Lily Adams]

Homework, although often rather annoying and tiresome, is kind of essential. It connects what you've learned one day to the next. A "bridge" so to speak. I didn't mind it so much when I didn't have 3+ hours of it...

I know that in my AP US History class, it is near impossible to not get along without homework. There is only so much time in the day for a teacher to cover so much material. Got to take that into account.

So yes, I see what you're saying, but honestly I think it's necessary, sort of like getting a flu shot or eating your veggies. Gross, but mandatory and beneficial in the end.

I think the problem most people have when it comes to homework is actually getting it done without procrastinating. Prioritize, people! So many of my friends just wreck theirs lives by procrastinating and never really have any nice time off. I shouldn't be speaking, though, since I like to stay up late and then come to school on little sleep.

And ah, yes, the debate about school itself...running kids through the system, endlessly testing them, "Programming Robots" as Lima said. I see that, too, but what else are you going to do with kids? Have them uneducated and running around in the streets? It's all a big mess, and a big paradox, but isn't everything?

Speaking of all that, my philosophy teacher is really cool. She is very unconventional. She doesn't give out tests or finals, and said that there aren't many high school philosophy classes because "they" don't want us thinking. I liked that...so there is hope. It's not just all about running us through the wash and dryer, though sadly it seems to have turned into somewhat of a business, like an assembly line or sheering sheep...

[librarius_qui]

haha thanks Libri :lol: :D. Most of the guys liked me because I did their homework for them! :p :lol:

Hm ... Well ... I hope you learnt already that you aren't supposed to do so, because this doesn't help them.

(I'm not quite sure Virgil agrees with me :D )




( :lol: )




Libri*
:crash:

[*Classic*Charm*]

I'll agree that in some aspects homework does instill a sense of discipline and work ethic, but it has its downsides too.

It was so ingrained in me to have good grades that when I was in grades 5-8 (so when I was 9-13 years old) I was doing homework from the time I got home at 3:30pm until usually around 11:00pm, with a quick break for dinner).

I did not have a bedtime because my parents knew that if they sent me to bed, I would keep doing my homework in bed. I also did homework on the weekends. I hardly ever saw my friends, and never during the week. I had one activity during the week that I did, and other than that and some occasional reading time, that was all I did. I was fine with this, because I already had my whole university career planned out which required good grades.

What no one told me was that my grade 7 marks had nothing whatsoever to do with getting through university. :sick: And while it might sound like I would surely end up with great study habits, I did until about grade eleven when I completely burnt out. It hit the point where I could no longer bear to open a textbook or do a problem, and I blame the fact that homework was made the highest priority in my life, both by myself and others.

Moderation is key...

[jon1jt]

This is the new generation, folks, coming soon to rule a world near you.

Pay close attention to how dismissive she, on the one hand acknowledges the deficiencies of homework and on the other hand dismisses the idea of education as a problem. So we're told there's nothing we can do about the billions of dollars in taxpayer revenue poured down the education system hole, just keep paying because it's all just a paradox anyways. :rolleyes:


[FONT="Courier New"]And ah, yes, the debate about school itself...running kids through the system, endlessly testing them, "Programming Robots" as Lima said. I see that, too, but what else are you going to do with kids? Have them uneducated and running around in the streets? It's all a big mess, and a big paradox, but isn't everything?



Speaking of all that, my philosophy teacher is really cool. She is very unconventional. She doesn't give out tests or finals, and said that there aren't many high school philosophy classes because "they" don't want us thinking. I liked that...so there is hope. It's not just all about running us through the wash and dryer, though sadly it seems to have turned into somewhat of a business, like an assembly line or sheering sheep...

Nine teachers a day and one that thinks outside the box---and just imagine what her philosophy teacher can never say to her students in a classroom for fear of expulsion. Oh, I meant being fired. ;)

Our tax dollars well spent, fer surrre. There is hope people, yes yes of course.

You obviously missed your philosophy teacher's point---who is the "they" she's talking about? Start there.


What no one told me was that my grade 7 marks had nothing whatsoever to do with getting through university.

For anyone paying attention to this and other discussions in which I have lashed out against education, my grievance has been with this notion of education as commerical value ingrained in the young with this quest for college admission. This has become part of an enduring historical and future narrative for the young and adults who pass it back to their children creating interlocking narratives that tell us who we are and what we're supposed to do with our lives. These narratives are in essence gods we have come to serve. This idea of going to college works and the young are made to accept the world as it is within their culture's rules and even prejudices. So, when we talk about homework or teachers' salaries or curriculum we're talking about something much more fundamental that nobody wants to acknowledge in the context, or if they do it's handled dismissively as I pointed out above. We will not face these problems because when you reject education you reject god.

It is presumptuous to suggest that homework is also about building critical thinking skills; you don't, can never develop any such skill or any meaningful enough to really change what is wrong in the world. We can never have a clarity about the present when our reasons for schooling are contradictory to learning. I'll leave it there.

[TheFifthElement]

These narratives are in essence gods we have come to serve. This idea of going to college works and the young are made to accept the world as it is within their culture's rules and even prejudices. So, when we talk about homework or teacher's salaries or curriculum we're talking about something much more fundamental that nobody wants to acknowledge in the context, or if they do it's handled dismissively as I pointed out above. We will not face these problems because when you reject education you reject god.
That's an interesting thought Jon. It pretty much stacks up against my own experience. The day I left university was the day I became a pariah, but also the day I started living my own life, based on my own choices, instead of the life that was expected for me. The best decision I made in my whole life, though it didn't feel like it at the time.

I say, step out of the groove baby :p

Of course, the only god that is respected in UK is beer. When they start offering beer for grades the results will go through the roof!!

[positiveion]

I am not going to reply to specific quotes, I just felt like putting out my opinions on the subject.

I'm a 16 year old kid. I don't live in the US, but I go to a school with the IB curriculum, which is meant to be international.

In my opinion, jon is entirely correct and the education has become/is nothing more than a meaningless commercial form of gaining points to get us into high end universities.

To give you a little taste of my school: Every kid in my school has a crapload of tutors, after school activities, and on top of that our insane workload.. It's a wonder I'm not locked up in an asylum already.

I started pulling all nighters at 14. When I think about school, sometimes I literally burst into tears. I hate learning so much and my brain almost hurts thinking about. I often find it difficult to actually think because... well, because I'm just so damn tired. I sleep late to finish assignments, meaning I cannot absorb everything during class, so I have to study after class to catch up, meaning less sleep and therefore an even lesser ability to absorb information the next day. All of this equates to extreme discomfort and misery throughout what should be a carefree youthful period of ones life. I didn't even mention all the health implications of sleep deprivation which are particularly harmful during ones teenage years. Stunted growth, premature aging, not to mention just a crappy immune system. I've had to struggle through report after report while my head pounded and snot dripped. Plus, the combination of sleep deprivation and angry, raging hormones does not make us a happy bunch of kids.

The thing is, I used to love learning. Now I don't even have time to read anymore. I can't remember the last book I read out of my own free will. There are so many things that I am interested in, that I'd love to research and investigate and study and LEARN on my own that I just do not have time for...

Maybe a little bit of homework would be useful but due to their lack of organizational skills and the fact that the education system doesn't even seem to be about educating anymore, my teachers are always saying:

"Grading period next week! Moderation period next week! Okay, 2 essays in by monday"

Usually, we've barely even learned the stuff by then because we're wasting time at school with SPORTS DAYS and WATCHING CRAPPY 50 YEAR OLD VIDEOS ON SAFE SEX AND DOING DRUGS. Tbqh, I learn NOTHING at school. All my learning is done at home due to the dreary mundane waste of time that most of my classes tend to be.

There is that one amazing teacher who I love... but that is a result of his own unique amazingness with no credit to my school whatsoever.

I know that this is probably a pretty extreme case and not very relevant to the original post about 5-9 year olds but I felt like applying some real life horror stories to the arguments against homework and... well, really wanted to vent.

Sorry haha.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I'm sorry if I seem particularly vulgar or uneloquent. Its 4 am in the morning where I am. And though we're in the middle of a school break, I am unable to sleep due to my completely messed up sleeping patterns.

[Lily Adams]

This is the new generation, folks, coming soon to rule a world near you.

Pay close attention to how dismissive she, on the one hand acknowledges the deficiencies of homework and on the other hand dismisses the idea of education as a problem. So we're told there's nothing we can do about the billions of dollars in taxpayer revenue poured down the education system hole, just keep paying because it's all just a paradox anyways. :rolleyes:

Whoah, whoah, wait a sec, I don't want to start any tensions here. Nothing's ever black and white, my friend. That's what I was getting at and I would like to be received a bit more courteously...

You tell me what you think we should do about our schools. :) Honestly I'm only 16 and my brain is still developing I'm sure and I don't know as much about the world as a lot of people.


Nine teachers a day and one that thinks outside the box---and just imagine what her philosophy teacher can never say to her students in a classroom for fear of expulsion. Oh, I meant being fired. ;)

Six, six teachers. But that's irrelavant. :)

That's what I was saying. She does touch upon real controversial subjects and I like it. So I am saying that there is hope and that there are people who really see through it all. I think the best rebellion is a type that's within the system itself. She is the perfect example of it. Infiltration through the inside out. And I know she probably can't say a lot of things in that class, but she has already exposed us to uncomfortable subjects that most don't think about. Healthy mind-probing. The veggies and shots again.


Our tax dollars well spent, fer surrre. There is hope people, yes yes of course.

She mentioned how Canada us the only country that has anything close to our class. Needless to say out textbooks are Canadian.


You obviously missed your philosophy teacher's point---who is the "they" she's talking about? Start there.


No, I don't think I missed it. I was acknowledging Lima's statement on "programming robots". I'm pretty sure I know what she was talking about. Of course, I'm not a teacher (yet) and don't know the entire system like the back of my hand, but I have talked to many teachers and have observed them on the subject. I know that all school is about now is yearly testing and getting us through and it's become quite dehumanizing. My favorite teacher in the whole world quit because of this. He just got too depressed with what happened to it all. It is a very unaddressed subject. "They" don't want us thinking because it makes a little too smart, 1984, Big Brother, etc., etc. The man, the man, the man. Teenagers are alread y dangerous, let's not give them any real thoughts and have them upset the system. Paranoia? Yes. Unjustified? No. I see that you mention a similar situation below that's very valid and I will address it there...

Oh and maybe if I still have it wrong according to you, maybe you could tell me?


For anyone paying attention to this and other discussions in which I have lashed out against education, my grievance has been with this notion of education as commerical value ingrained in the young with this quest for college admission. This has become part of an enduring historical and future narrative for the young and adults who pass it back to their children creating interlocking narratives that tell us who we are and what we're supposed to do with our lives. These narratives are in essence gods we have come to serve. This idea of going to college works and the young are made to accept the world as it is within their culture's rules and even prejudices. So, when we talk about homework or teachers' salaries or curriculum we're talking about something much more fundamental that nobody wants to acknowledge in the context, or if they do it's handled dismissively as I pointed out above. We will not face these problems because when you reject education you reject god.

Here it is. Yes. Culture's rules and prejudices indeed. But how are you going to change an entire populations' way of life? I mean...I know that probably the best thing to admit is that you don't know everything (thus "rejecting God" and making you a bad person) but seriously, what are you going to do with all the kids? They're not just going to assimilate into a utopia of peace...


It is presumptuous to suggest that homework is also about building critical thinking skills; you don't, can never develop any such skill or any meaningful enough to really change what is wrong in the world. We can never have a clarity about the present when our reasons for schooling are contradictory to learning. I'll leave it there.

Still, what can you do? You can't change what's wrong, so...where do you suppose we start?

My 10th grade English teacher was like this and I liked him very much. He really exposed us to the difference between learning competitively (an oxymoron, yes, as you like to mention) and learning for fun. Unfortunately the system ("they" again) want us to go go go and never stop, treating us like machines. This is what you're saying, yes? He used A Separate Peace and the myth of Sisyphus to explain this to us. It's not the goal, it's the process. There's a big difference between teaching facts and teaching how to think. Much of school is just straightforward memorization (although I do like this bit, there is too much emphasis on it) and not much about actually thinking. Yes?


In summary, I'll have to quote Classic on this one:


Moderation is key...

Also smile and pretend you don't know anything. Rebellion is obsolete. Work things from the inside out.

[jon1jt]

Still, what can you do? You can't change what's wrong, so...where do you suppose we start?

The answer to this question is in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. I do encourage you read it one day, Lily. With that said, you have been a super big sport and a wonderful interlocutor, Plato would be proud. I very much enjoyed reading your candid reply, excellent. Thank you.

[*Classic*Charm*]

To give you a little taste of my school: Every kid in my school has a crapload of tutors, after school activities, and on top of that our insane workload.. It's a wonder I'm not locked up in an asylum already.

I started pulling all nighters at 14. When I think about school, sometimes I literally burst into tears. I hate learning so much and my brain almost hurts thinking about. I often find it difficult to actually think because... well, because I'm just so damn tired. I sleep late to finish assignments, meaning I cannot absorb everything during class, so I have to study after class to catch up, meaning less sleep and therefore an even lesser ability to absorb information the next day. All of this equates to extreme discomfort and misery throughout what should be a carefree youthful period of ones life. I didn't even mention all the health implications of sleep deprivation which are particularly harmful during ones teenage years. Stunted growth, premature aging, not to mention just a crappy immune system. I've had to struggle through report after report while my head pounded and snot dripped. Plus, the combination of sleep deprivation and angry, raging hormones does not make us a happy bunch of kids.

The thing is, I used to love learning. Now I don't even have time to read anymore. I can't remember the last book I read out of my own free will. There are so many things that I am interested in, that I'd love to research and investigate and study and LEARN on my own that I just do not have time for...

Maybe a little bit of homework would be useful but due to their lack of organizational skills and the fact that the education system doesn't even seem to be about educating anymore, my teachers are always saying:

"Grading period next week! Moderation period next week! Okay, 2 essays in by monday"

Oh IB. That program is a world unto itself and I don't think really fits into the discussion of homework we're having here, because it's completely, insanely intense. My Best friend was in IB and she lived for school. It was scary. She took friday night off and other than that, did nothing but homework and her one extra-curricular, which happened to fall on her one night off. In a lot of ways, she was very much cut-off from the world (not to imply that it makes people socially inept or anything, though a lot of her friends were). I have A LOT of respect for those who go through that program.

[Virgil]

The answer to this question is in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. I do encourage you read it one day, Lily. With that said, you have been a super big sport and a wonderful interlocutor, Plato would be proud. I very much enjoyed reading your candid reply, excellent. Thank you.

You like Ayn Rand Jon? I would never have guessed. She was for pure, unadulterated capitalism, you know, my kind of gal. :D

[Equality72521]

You like Ayn Rand Jon? I would never have guessed. She was for pure, unadulterated capitalism, you know, my kind of gal. :D

Capitalism = the most legit thing ever! Lurveee.

Ayn Rand = Legit as well....just not as legit as cap!

[Lily Adams]

The answer to this question is in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. I do encourage you read it one day, Lily. With that said, you have been a super big sport and a wonderful interlocutor, Plato would be proud. I very much enjoyed reading your candid reply, excellent. Thank you.

I will add that to my list, sir. Too many books, too little time, yes? :lol:

No, thank you. :)

[Chava]

"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein.

Yey, IB survivors. Don't miss it, and feel imense pity for the kids who had to spend another year to redo their subjects.

[dramasnot6]

Everything depends on the kind of homework they give you. Routine busy work is pointless and,I think, plays a large part in why so many kids are anti-school.
Productive work that encourages creativity and successfully helps you learn class material can be wonderful.
I remember that in 4th or 5th grade we were able to choose our homework for Spelling Class. Every week we were tested on a particular New Word List but could choose several of a large range of homework assignments to complete in preparation for this test. My favorites were writing short poems using the words and also creating a crossword puzzle.
I thought that homework model was great because a) it encouraged students to choose their learning, something very rare in pre-university education, and b) it was designed to apply our knowledge in a fun,practical way.

I strongly disagree with homework for the sake of homework. However, I appreciate being able to expand and develop what I learn in class at home...sometimes working in a different environment helps you understand the content better.

[SleepyWitch]

interesting debate. I've only read the first 3 pages so far and am still sitting on the fence.
but there's one thing I'm sure about after just having returned from observing German lessons in England: if those kids didn't have homework, they probably still wouldn't speak a single word of German/ French/ Spanish/any other foreign language after 100 years of lessons. You cannot learn a foreign language properly when you have only two hours a week. So if it weren't for the homework, they'd probably never learn even the most basic phrases.
Fifth, I don't think the teachers' methods were inefficient, at least not at the school I visited. On the contrary, it was amazing how much they actually got done, considering all the paperwork they had to fill in or make the pupils fill in during class. E.g. the kids had to fill in an assessment form in which they rate how successfully they've learned X, Y and Z over the past couple of weeks. I think this is a good idea because it gives them an opportunity to reflect on their own learning process. But why do they have to fill it in in class?
Anyway, what did puzzle me, was that they still got homework, although their school day only finishes at 3 p.m. I can understand that kids get homework over here, because school finishes at 1 p.m., so there is plenty of time for other activities left. But then, maybe the English school day is the same length because it starts later? :confused: Maybe it's the organization of the school day that's inefficient? On the other hand, starting around 8 means that the kids are tired in period 1 and you can't expect them to concentrate anyway.

about working hours, even outside teaching, you'll find lots of people who work more than 40 hours a week. e.g. a friend of mine is an engineer and he frequently works 90 hours a week.
In fact, I've never regarded teaching as a 9 to 5 job. I was kinda surprised when this one trainee teacher in England said, one should use ones free periods efficiently, so that marking and planning doesn't invade your evenings or weekends. :eek: I always thought teaching was more like an 8 to 24 job and it was the norm for teachers not to have much free time during the week. All the teachers I know stay up till 12 preparing their lessons etc. They finish school at 1 p.m. and I'm not saying they spent all the time between 1 p.m. and 12 midnight marking and preparing. They probably look after their own children in between or pay their bills or wash the dishes. But for me teacher is synonymous with workaholic.
Of course that means something is wrong with the system :) but what would be the alternative? (this is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one)

[SleepyWitch]

Slightly off subject but I have a really good example of the craziness of NC in my son's maths lessons. He was learning long addition. Now, he's pretty good at maths, it's one of his best subjects, but he was struggling with long addition. So my husband helped him with his work. He had a problem like this:

123 + 275 =

and he had to answer it. My husband showed him to do it like this:
123 +
275


you've explained this before, but I forgot: how exactly is one supposed to use the linear method for long additions? I think when I was a kid we exclusively used your husband's method for long additions. How can they be sure that if a kid uses the linear method for long additions, they aren't really doing the other one in their head? Plus, doesn't the linear method kind of mean, you just 'automatize' additions, i.e. learn them by heart after breaking them down into smaller bits? E.g.: 7+5= [7+3+2= 10+2 this bit is supposed to happen in your mind] 12, which is basically only a different way of putting your husband's method in writing? After kids have learned it this way and done the calculation a couple of times, this bit of knowledge kinda gets stored as one item and you don't question how much 7+5 equals, you know it by heart. Now this is perfectly fine for simple equations. But what's the point in using maths at all, if you are not allowed to use the other method for long additions? Isn't the whole point of maths that it enables you to calculate sums that you do not know by heart? :confused: :confused:

[Virgil]

Anyway, what did puzzle me, was that they still got homework, although their school day only finishes at 3 p.m. I can understand that kids get homework over here, because school finishes at 1 p.m., so there is plenty of time for other activities left. But then, maybe the English school day is the same length because it starts later? :confused: Maybe it's the organization of the school day that's inefficient? On the other hand, starting around 8 means that the kids are tired in period 1 and you can't expect them to concentrate anyway.


School in Germany finishes at one PM? :eek: :eek: Boy would I have loved that. :D

[SleepyWitch]

School in Germany finishes at one PM? :eek: :eek: Boy would I have loved that. :D

yeah, well, at least it does for the younger students, maybe up to year 9. But it starts at around 7.45 to 8.15. But they are introducing all-day school now.

[Emil Miller]

Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

...but there's one thing I'm sure about after just having returned from observing German lessons in England: if those kids didn't have homework, they probably still wouldn't speak a single word of German/ French/ Spanish/any other foreign language after 100 years of lessons.

It's a long time since I was at school but I doubt if things have changed much with regard to foreign languages during the interim. I recall having a teacher who spoke fantastic French, but as schoolboys we were just not interested and didn't learn anything ;forgetting anything we had heard immediately on leaving the classroom. There were no examinations in the language and I only learned to speak it many years later through an interest in the French cinema and France in general.
Some years ago I was reading Milan Kundera's Unbearable Lightness of Being in French when a young colleague said that he didn't understand why I wasn't reading it in English which is now the international language.
Only a week ago, in conversation with an acquaintance who is quite well educated, I happened to remark that all languages are interesting and he replied: "Maybe but only one is necessary."
English is now so widely spoken that it has made foreign language teaching a matter of form rather than necessity and it is sadly ironic that it couldn't have been lost on the pupils whom Sleepy Witch visited, that her perfect understanding of English further underlined the fact.

[SleepyWitch]

Fifth, I know you were talking about primary school, but anyway would reading some pages in a history textbook or studying the notes you took in class (in secondary school) count as homework or independent study?