NOT for sensitive people!

[Helga]

OK, first I want to say that I don't regularly do this and I am not trying to force my believes on others!!

I am a vegetarian and I don't want to wear leather or fur. I made this desicion after witnessing children in an awful 'play' of getting pidgins and killing them. I did research and animal cruelty is very well known in all kinds of factories and labs. I do think that becoming a vegetarian is an individual choice and I wouldn't try to force it on anyone.

Now the main point of this thread is that I get e-mails from PETA and today they sent me breaking news about people in China that treat animals in a worse way than ever witnessed before. I am not gonna say anything about the link below or what you will see in it. It is not for sensitive people and I couldn't even watch it. I hope you will find this informing and show it to people who can handle it.

I don't want anyone to get mad at me for this but I think it is important for people to see this video.


*Edited to remove link to video at above mentioned website for PETA.

This is an all-ages site and the video link especially disturbing to our younger members.

[Jay]

Couldn't watch it.
They don't have laws against that in China? They make synthetic furs, why people still feel the need to wear real skins. It's just stupid.

[kilted exile]

OK, I think I got through about 5 seconds of that clip before I felt like ripping out my eyes from their sockets.

[Jay]

I felt more like ripping out body parts of the 'people' on the vid.

[mono]

Hmm, I cannot find the link you refer to, Helga, but I can only imagine what gruesome tales the site showed. I, too, find myself as vegetarian, for a few years now, and for multiple reasons - not only animal rights, but for general health reasons. Like you, I never push my views on others, even if 'carnivores' enforce their perspectives on me (which happens often, to remain honest).
Regardless, I congratulate you on your decision, and hope the best for animal rights, specifically regarding the child you witnessed.

[subterranean]

Well tis not only happen in China and I've seen those kinds of cruelty long time ago, since it already happened for years..If only trees could scream, we would have witness the same cruelty.

[Stanislaw]

That was a sickening video, I went to the peta websight. I hate cruelty like that, those people should be skinned alive. These issues have always haunted me, but I have never took action, I feel as bad as the ones commiting the crime. :(

[Miss Darcy]

I know I couldn't watch that video even if the link was still intact; I - I just couldn't. I am also vegetarian - from birth - and I find it horrific to hear my acquaintances talking about how cool it was in the place they kill animals for Woolies. I can't understand how people can kill animals and be so cruel to them...:( :( :(

Not only animals, there is insufferable cruelty happening to people, too; not only hunger, starvation, but even worse...There is always a war in the world. Think of all the poverty and desolation. I can't understand how humans can consciously go around killing one another, it's just so...terrible and inhumane.

Darcy

[Stanislaw]

Nature is cruel, and we are the keepers of nature...Humans really are the most sadistic creatures on the planet. I think that everyday, we move away from God more and more, only to come closer to evil.

I wish we could change all people so that they would see the horrors of this and change their ways. It is one thing to see and another to do.

I wish others would join me.

[subterranean]

Well I'm not bragging my self, but I'm a loyal supporter of Greenpeace and Nature Conservacy, and I'm an active e-activist ...

And Stan, best not to speak about changing people..we should start from us..ourselves :nod:

[Snukes]

Aah, the motivation of the morons post suddenly becomes clear. : p

Question (asked in sincerity and not intended to provoke) for you veggies: how far would you extend a definition of cruelty to animals? Admitting some facilities or institutions in the food production business operate under less than pristine conditions, would you go so far as to say that the very desire to eat an animal is cruel?

I didn't look for the video because I have no desire to watch violence or cruelty, which the video apparently depicts, so I can't say anything about that (other than that I'm sure I'd add my disapproval to yours), but I'm curious about the veggie thing. I'm not a farm girl - I could never eat something I'd once known to be alive (say, a formerly pet chicken), but as long as my meat comes from a nice, tidy, sanitary grocery store shelf, I shall not be able to do without it.

[amuse]

Helga, you might be interested in Diet for a New America (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=diet+for+a+new+america); i read it a few years back. it's very much on line with the discussion here.

[mono]

Question (asked in sincerity and not intended to provoke) for you veggies: how far would you extend a definition of cruelty to animals? Admitting some facilities or institutions in the food production business operate under less than pristine conditions, would you go so far as to say that the very desire to eat an animal is cruel?
To answer your question, Snukes (and worry not, I feel no offense), animal cruelty does have its limits, in my opinion. I acknowledge that some people prefer consuming meat, and do not feel offended, even though MANY people oddly take offense at my being vegetarian (no names need mention).
The desire to eat meat, as you ask, to me, does not seem cruel. As a big anatomy "geek," I fully know that the human body grows certain features of the teeth (incisors, canines, pre-molars, and molars) and produces specific enzymes solely for the reason of eating meat (for example its high protein and, in some, lipid content). Animal cruelty to me extends, seemingly, as far as Helga's, in her first post; if people will eat meat, which seems a neither superior nor inferior way of life, it seems most humane if taken out in a rational, quick manner, rather than tortuous and cruel.

[Helga]

thank you all, I am not supposed to say this because I was edited but you should check out the PETA website for more info

[amuse]

no thank you. i mean that nicely. i for one know it's barbarous, the lives and deaths of most animals raised for general human consumption, but not all of us want to visit the PETA sight/site. perhaps you might rethink "should" - ?
I am not trying to force my believes on others!!i know you mean well.

[Logos]

That's not quite what I meant, Helga, ;) as I said in PM, I edited your post "to (only) remove the direct video link you had in it."

You will notice I also put PETA in my note. People can go out of their way to find the site and direct link to that video you're referring to and watch it, I merely wanted to make it harder for *some possibly sensitive younger members* to find it.






thank you all, I am not supposed to say this because I was edited but you should check out the PETA website for more info

[Helga]

sorry I'll stop

[Jay]

I can't see a reason why you should :)

[subterranean]

I love animals and never acted cruel towards any, but I eat meat, fish and chicken. Apologize, but I don't feel guilty by doing that. I think they are breed in purpose to fill human basic needs (animal protein). But I tottaly disagree with killing animals for their furrs, ivories, horns, etc. Believe the ownership of those things are just for pride and arrogancy and tottally unacceptable.

[Jay]

Second that.

[amuse]

Third

*10cr

[Stanislaw]

You summed it up well SubT, I am an omnivor and I eat meat, however most of the meat that I eat is slaughtered by my family, or close friends of my family, We do not support cruelty in any way.

I don't even see the reasons for this cruelty, why must an animal suffer when it could be eisily killed quickly and painlessly?

[subterranean]

Just receieved this from Care2:



Dear (my name),

We've all seen the pictures -- adorable dark eyes staring out at us benevolently from pillowy white fur. But cruelty season is fast-approaching in Canada.

In a month's time, hunters armed with clubs and rifles will bludgeon and shoot to death hundreds of thousands of baby harp seals out on the ice floes of Eastern Canada. Shockingly, at least 95% of the seals killed will be less than three months old and many may be skinned alive.

Canada's seal hunt is the largest deliberate slaughter of marine mammals in the world. The government has set a legal quota of up to 319,500 seals this year. The seal pelts are served up to the fashion industry, with additional profits from meat, oil, and the sale of genitalia to Asian markets. But the killing of baby seals doesn't make sense economically or ecologically, nor is it sustainable.

The Canadian government wants the media and public to believe that no one cares about the innocent blood spilled each year. That's why we must create a public outcry!

Tell the Canadian Parliament that you DO CARE about the cruelty inflicted upon these seals and that the hunt is indefensible!

Sign the petition: here (http://www.care2.com/go/z/21963)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for taking action today!

- Dawn S
Care2 and ThePetitionSite team

Here's the baby seal's pic

[amuse]

thanks for the link

[Stanislaw]

Thanks, it is important to petition such blatent disregard for life.

[Helga]

thanks for the link. I added my name to it, and I have to say that I am glad so many people agree with me on these issues.

[Koa]

The desire to eat meat, as you ask, to me, does not seem cruel. As a big anatomy "geek," I fully know that the human body grows certain features of the teeth (incisors, canines, pre-molars, and molars) and produces specific enzymes solely for the reason of eating meat (for example its high protein and, in some, lipid content). Animal cruelty to me extends, seemingly, as far as Helga's, in her first post; if people will eat meat, which seems a neither superior nor inferior way of life, it seems most humane if taken out in a rational, quick manner, rather than tortuous and cruel.

(i saw the other thread first but i came here thinking that my pointless opinion would fit better here...and i was right)
Well, it's cool that a vegetarian actually recognises that it's not a crime to eat meat...I mean, I've never met any vegeterians who try to force that on others (I actually know only one veggie in person) but I'm not a vegetarian nor I would ever be able to be one... I don't even like vegetables that much...and it would be hard for me to live without meat (sorry but honestly it's like that). Well, in all sincerity I don't even 'love' animals that much...I don't know why, I don't feel too much care for them...Which means, I'd never hurt them on purpose, but I don't even feel too caring for them, like for example I didnt want my family to have a cat...I lost my battle and live in a peaceful hostility with the furry fat creature now ;) Pretty much like my total lack of maternal instinct...
(and I hope noone misunderstands what I said).
Can I ask, though...Is it a sacrifice for you all to be a vegetarian? As I explained, to me it would be...I actually know about a friend of a friend of mine who is a veg 'just' because he doesnt like meat so it was easier that way... I also wonder about geography somehow cos I know only one Italian who is a veg while I've heard that there are many in Germany for example and curiosuly she became one when she was in Germany...

As for the rest, I think that killing animals for other purposes is quite pointless...why wear them when there are other things to wear...
)pretty much like I bought shoes from a famous label only once in my life (and because they were the only shoes I really liked and I needed them) because I've always heard that those famous expensive sport shoes factories exploit children... even if it's not certain that smaller factories dont do it too....Boycotting is good though...

[mono]

Can I ask, though...Is it a sacrifice for you all to be a vegetarian? As I explained, to me it would be...I actually know about a friend of a friend of mine who is a veg 'just' because he doesnt like meat so it was easier that way... I also wonder about geography somehow cos I know only one Italian who is a veg while I've heard that there are many in Germany for example and curiosuly she became one when she was in Germany...
Of course you may ask, Koa. Years ago, when I first turned vegetarian, the change did not seem much of an alteration in lifestyle; I had never considered myself a fan of eating meat. The choice seemed nearly indeliberate, but just occurred, as if I did not require a great effort, but I knew and felt confident that this seems how I should live, just as many people feel they should consume meat and wear clothing made from animals, which does not offend me in the least. Now, that I have carried this lifestyle for years, I feel comfortably undistinguished from others; I just feel like myself.
As for geographics, as you mentioned, living in the U.S., and being vegetarian, has a few down falls. Most people understand, but while the majority consume and wear animal products, some become easily offended, and, to remain honest, overly-sensitive with an assumed stereotype.

[Koa]

I see... thanks for the answer. I guess it must be 'hard' at least in one sense at least here, because when you go to eat out not always places have a wide choice of stuff with no meat, and even more rarely a vegetarian menu. Or when you are invited for dinner at someone's, in a big family meal it's hard not to find meat... By the way, when I was in Hungary there was an American guy who is a vegetarian and sometimes it took him a while to find something suitable to eat when we were out. Oh well, c'est la vie...

[Koa]

Eheh sometimes I've wondered if I should be a vegeterian but as I said I wouldnt survive it...I need the pleasures of food! Btw I dont know any 'radical' vegetarian, those who dont eat milk products or eggs...

[Helga]

a vegetarian eats dairy, it's called a vegan when you don't even eat dairy. so if you are willing to give the steak up it won't be a big problem... just so you know....

[subterranean]

So the classifications are made to accomodate people preference? I mean, if you want to eat vegetables plus dairy you'd be classified as this..but if you eat 100% vegetables you'd be classified as this..?

[baddad]

Yes, ugly death happens in a multitude of ways on this planet. But I defy anyone to claim a pretty picture of death.

P.E.T.A., as an example, is a political force which must raise money to muster attention to its cause, in order to raise money to muster attention to its cause...etc,etc, and so it hunts out he cruelest most despicable forms of death it can find to raise money.....(but claims only to raise an issue of vast importance)..the emotional impact of these animal death videos is huge...and donations pour in...

Cruelty is wrong. Anything taken to an extreme is probably wrong.

But hunting, culling, trapping, husbandry, and slaughter, etc, have been human activities since the dawn of man. Yes there are alternatives to the products produced by these activities, but the whole world does not move in an organized phalanx of change to modernity. Some of these despised activities are culturally motivated. Left-wing extremism and knee-jerk reaction to these issues may generate the emotion needed to bring in the 'believers', and their wallets, but change is brought about by rational interaction, not finger pointing and callaous accusations not solely altruisticly generated. IMHO *hmmm...humble?*

P.S. Here in Canada we have a rock star named, 'Bif Naked'. She is a raw food vegan. Now, that might limit your caloric intake.........

[Snukes]

Where do fungi fit into the veggie diet? I assume since they aren't generally cute or fluffy and can't look you in the eye at any point in their pre-consumed life, they also count as edible. Just curious... :)

[atiguhya padma]

I once read somewhere in a book by Lyall Watson (probably one of the Supernature books), that a test had been performed which suggested that plants may feel something like pain. Lyall Watson was so disturbed by these tests, that he gave up mowing his lawn!! Apparently, some businessman in New York City was playing around with an EEG machine strapped to a potted plant, and when he accidentally poured some of his hot coffee onto the plant, the EEG went berserk. He did some further tests that convinced him that plants do in fact have some form of suffering.

Interestingly, Gandhi refused to eat vegetables, restricting himself to a diet of fruits and nuts. He reasoned that fruits and nuts were made to be consumed, indeed the act of consumption propagates the plants from which they come. Its rather a sad life when the most ethical diet is a peach and a peanut!

[subterranean]

:nod:

scr10


Its rather a sad life when the most ethical diet is a peach and a peanut!

[ennison]

Carrots are just as alive as any of the veggies contributing here. Potatoes even more so. By the way once you had skinned them alive (thus demonstrating your anti-cruel nature) what would you do with the skins? A nice tapestry perhaps? A tablecloth? George B Shaw was a simpleton of course who believed in lots of dross.

[RobinHood3000]

Already on a one-vegetarian-meal a day diet, have been since an animal-activist friend of mine showed me a video. Perhaps not as cruel as helga's, but significant nonetheless. My ostensible rationale, since it's not for religious reasons, is that a) people eat too much in certain parts of the Western World anyways, b) it's a poor use of biomass to cultivate meat en masse, and c) it's healthier to limit meat intake, to a certain degree, anyway.

Sorry if I seem like a wishy-washy part-time vegetarian...but at least my animal activist friend was proud of me.

[Serenata]

That video made me sick. I respect vegetarians for their views and their ability to adhere to their beliefs, but I eat meat. As a meat eater and an animal-lover, I may seem somewhat hypocritical. I agree with the view expressed about animals killed for consumption being killed humanely. I enjoy hearing about other member's views on this subject.

[Bysshe]

I'm a vegetarian out of habit, not because I feel strongly on animal rights (both parents are vegetarian, and they've brought me up the same). Although I must say, the thought of eating meat doesn't appeal to me at all.

I can see it from both points of view. It's frustrating for meat-eaters when militant vegetarians start chanting "Meat is murder!" at them, but on the other hand, it's irritating when meat-eaters accuse vegetarians over being wishy-washy and unecessarily sentimental.

I also hate the stereotype that all vegetarians are unhealthy, pale, weedy type things. It's possible to be a vegetarian and still have a healthy, balanced diet!

[Thorwench]

I don't mind vegetarians or vegans unless they ask me to cook an extra dish because of their personal restrictions. Of course we in the western countries eat far too much meat and treat our animals badly which has also an impact on the quality of the meat we get. However, I hate those posters spread all over town every now and then showing cute piggies and lambs who scream out to me "Don't eat us". This is just really sad. I am, as nature intended, an omnivore and I appreciate my food and where it came from. I also took part in slaughtering the so called "private pig" when I was a kid. I will take my children to such kind of farm work as well so that they can learn how it's done and how you make sausages and mince and bacon. I do believe that you have to be able to watch the process if you want to eat meat, it seems to be part of the deal. The main problem seems to be that for most people the food chain starts in a supermarket and everything is good enough as long as it is cheap and cheerful. The same with eggs or milk or creams. The real thing tastes so much better and has more nutritional value (albeit more calories as well), i.e. you need less to get your daily intake of essentials. There are similar problems with veges, perhaps they come from monocultures that destroy the soil in the long term or are heavily sprayed with pesticides or are, my favourite, genetically engineered. That sounds really wholesome and responsible, doesn't it? :(

[miss tenderness]

Not only animals, there is insufferable cruelty happening to people, too; not only hunger, starvation, but even worse...There is always a war in the world. Think of all the poverty and desolation. I can't understand how humans can consciously go around killing one another, it's just so...terrible and inhumane.

I agree, we should condemn the cruelty against animal, but we must strongly condemn the cruelty against people which we see increasing . Good point missy.

er
[QUOTE=Subterranean]I love animals and never acted cruel towards any, but I eat meat, fish and chicken. Apologize, but I don't feel guilty by doing that. I think they are breed in purpose to fill human basic needs (animal protein).[/QIOTE]

Same here..

[SleepyWitch]

Can I ask, though...Is it a sacrifice for you all to be a vegetarian? As I explained, to me it would be...I actually know about a friend of a friend of mine who is a veg 'just' because he doesnt like meat so it was easier that way... I also wonder about geography somehow cos I know only one Italian who is a veg while I've heard that there are many in Germany for example and curiosuly she became one when she was in Germany...


Koa, I've been a veggie for something like 10 years and it wasn't really a sacrifice for me. I do like meat and I will occassionally have some regional meat specialites (barbeque sausages), like once or twice a year.
I became a veggie gradually to make it easier. First I stopped eating meals with lots of meat like roast beef, roast pork etc. But I still ate some chicken and cold meat and sausages.
Then I stopped eating these too and finally stopped eating fish, as well. It took me about half a year or maybe three quarters. It's mainly a matter of getting used to it. Once you've reached a certain point it becomes habitual. You don't even think about eating meat (at least I don't). It's just like non-smokers would never think of touching a cigarette and never think about smoking or do any of the things smokers do (carry lighters with them or go to a tobacconist, eg.). At least it's like that for me.
After a couple of years even my senses unlearned things to do with meat!
E.g. when my dad cooked pork once it smelled like fish to my nose! Sometimes I lost a bet against my friends and had to eat a steak as a punishment and it was completely tasteless, even though it was a quality steak.

I'm not sure about the Geography of vegetarianism, Koa. Hum, do you have many meat-heavy dishes in Italy? I thought you'd have like lots of pasta with a bit of meat? In Germany we have many traditional dishes with tons of meat and a tiny bit of veg in them. So maybe people are disgusted by these? Whereas in Italy it's only little bits of meat, so it's not that disgusting for people who don't like meat?



mono it's funny carnivores get offended by you being a veggie. I've had the same experience lots of times. And it's not like I preach or try to impose my lifestyle on others. Most of the time I don't even mention I'm a veggie but people find out somehow. Some of them can get really nasty, although I try to avoid rows and try to talk about something different!
I think some people must have very low self-esteem, so they get offended by whatever is slightly different from their own views.

[SleepyWitch]

I do believe that you have to be able to watch the process if you want to eat meat, it seems to be part of the deal.
I like this idea. I've noticed that many devout carnivores (especially girls) will be the first to scream when they see how it's done or will refuse to cut up fresh meat etc. But as soon as they're not seeing it anymore they'll gobble down tons of meat again.
When I was in Mongolia, we had to cut up freshmutton (there wasn't anything without mutton to eat so i ate it too because i didn't wont to make a fuss; it was delicious by the way :) ) Some of the biggest carnivores (girls) refused to help with the cutting but as soon as the mutton was cooked and didn't look like "dead animal" they ate it... I'll not pass any judgement, I'm sure you can imagine what I think of these girls.

[RobinHood3000]

Indeed -- it's hard to know where people started to go wrong with meat cultivation, eh? You can't say they shouldn't have hunted animals, you can't say they shouldn't have domesticated animals, you can't say they shouldn't aim for a surplus to avoid starvation. But it reaches a point where it simply becomes irresponsible.

[Madhuri]

So far as I know, people who mostly take non-veg diet are from places where vegetarian food is not available easily or is very expensive, expecially in cold regions where vegetation is minimal, and hence they have to rely on other food sources to survive, which I think is okay. However, as we have advanced so much and due to globalisation, all sorts of food is available at any time of the year and at any place, so being a vegetarian or non-vegetarian has become a matter of choice. I am vegetarian, not because I chose to be one but because I did not have a choice, and there was no exposure to any of this, food or cruelty.

So far as cruelty is concerned, I do not understand -- cruelty to animals, whether one is cruel or not, I am sure either way the animal doesnt want to get killed.

Maybe i'll try some day meat, chicken or fish and then decide.

[MarkBastable]

This might be true. On the other hand, it might be an urbanization of a short story by Roald Dahl, which I think you can find in the collection "Switch B*itch".




I once read somewhere in a book by Lyall Watson (probably one of the Supernature books), that a test had been performed which suggested that plants may feel something like pain. Lyall Watson was so disturbed by these tests, that he gave up mowing his lawn!! Apparently, some businessman in New York City was playing around with an EEG machine strapped to a potted plant, and when he accidentally poured some of his hot coffee onto the plant, the EEG went berserk. He did some further tests that convinced him that plants do in fact have some form of suffering.

Interestingly, Gandhi refused to eat vegetables, restricting himself to a diet of fruits and nuts. He reasoned that fruits and nuts were made to be consumed, indeed the act of consumption propagates the plants from which they come. Its rather a sad life when the most ethical diet is a peach and a peanut!

[1n50mn14]

..........

[MarkBastable]

I do believe that you have to be able to watch the process if you want to eat meat.(

...Why?