Some recommendations about the craft of writing?

[sillyman]

I've always been a reader, but never a fiction writer, although I have done well in essays for school. Now into my second year at college, I'm going to try and give it a go and write some fiction. I know I'm going to need a lot of practice to write something decent so could anyone recommend me some books that talk about writing, or just grammar in general? I have Stephen King's "On Writing", since he's my favorite author, and I found it very helpful.

[aBIGsheep]

I love 'On Writing.' If you're into that and truly want to be a more efficient writer, take the time to read 'Writing with Style' by John R. Trimble.

The commentary in the book itself are great examples of writing with style.

[Mag Master 21]

This was a pretty good resource:

Barnett and Stubb's Practical Guide to Writing (Paperback)
by Sylvan Barnet (Author), Marcia Stubbs (Author)

This may be worth checking out as well...

Ernest Hemingway on Writing (Paperback)
by Larry W. Phillips (Editor)

[Silas Thorne]

Maybe the others are better, but I think I've learned a few things from this book :
Technique In Fiction
by Robie Macauley ,George Lanning.

[LitNetIsGreat]

If you want to write just read as much as possible. I intend to write something in ten years time (or so) I just don't feel that I have read enough yet, despite reading a fair amount of material. Read everything you can but quality counts. Other than that others may be able to help you more than I can.

[JBI]

The art of the short story, though I cannot remember the editor, but it has I think 50 short stories, and essays on the form by the stories' authors.

[Jozanny]

If you want to write just read as much as possible. I intend to write something in ten years time (or so) I just don't feel that I have read enough yet, despite reading a fair amount of material. Read everything you can but quality counts. Other than that others may be able to help you more than I can.

Neely, I beg to differ here. I had my first submission rejected when I was nine years old, and when my parents put me in a home prior to subjecting me to everything else, I kept a journal. When I was in high school, I published my first news articles, and poetry in the Ridley lit-mag, which John envied later in university as a better product than the university lit-mag, and around that time I had my first short story shredded by a well-meaning college professor via my mother's efforts. I only really hit my stride in my late thirties.

You do not really want to write if the excuse is that you haven't read enough; if you really want to publish, and have ambition, you write, you submit, you figure out a way to take writing workshops, free ones, cheap ones, online ones. You break your heart.

I know these forums are not Poets & Writers, nor even Writers Market, but as a community, LN seems to have a strange diffidence about what it takes to see manuscripts as a work product, and publishing as a business, which it is, regardless of the type of writing done.

The only reason my hard hat is not on now is I have to move to another floor temporarily for about twelve weeks, and if an editor chances to say yes to a suggested assignment, I don't want to have to explain that the deadline might be hamstrung because of packing boxes, so I am doing other things, and can still make unsolicited submissions. But I break my heart because I am egotist enough to know I am good enough to feel the love when my byline scores a hit.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Neely, I beg to differ here. I had my first submission rejected when I was nine years old, and when my parents put me in a home prior to subjecting me to everything else, I kept a journal. When I was in high school, I published my first news articles, and poetry in the Ridley lit-mag, which John envied later in university as a better product than the university lit-mag, and around that time I had my first short story shredded by a well-meaning college professor via my mother's efforts. I only really hit my stride in my late thirties.

You do not really want to write if the excuse is that you haven't read enough; if you really want to publish, and have ambition, you write, you submit, you figure out a way to take writing workshops, free ones, cheap ones, online ones. You break your heart.

I know these forums are not Poets & Writers, nor even Writers Market, but as a community, LN seems to have a strange diffidence about what it takes to see manuscripts as a work product, and publishing as a business, which it is, regardless of the type of writing done.

The only reason my hard hat is not on now is I have to move to another floor temporarily for about twelve weeks, and if an editor chances to say yes to a suggested assignment, I don't want to have to explain that the deadline might be hamstrung because of packing boxes, so I am doing other things, and can still make unsolicited submissions. But I break my heart because I am egotist enough to know I am good enough to feel the love when my byline scores a hit.

I'm glad that you disagree with me Jozanny then there is a fair chance I may be wrong about it. But what sort of writing are we talking about though? Are you talking about writing fiction or journalism?

I think your absolutely right if someone is wanting to get into journalism, submit everything, do anything you can, but is this the same method used if someone wants to write something, not necessarily 'literary' but at least a novel with some sort of weight? Or do you think it is better to build-up and go down the journalistic route even if your ambition was fiction of a different sort? I am open to ideas, I'm just sure that a good writer is a good reader.

[Jozanny]

Of course a writer needs to be a good reader and every writer draws on influences. Journalists, poets, doctors, lawyers, novelists--my point is that if you don't write you will not be a writer, and it has to start early. When I was young I was trite, sentimental, conventional, but I wrote, and wrote. You have to be bad before your voice finds itself and becomes unique--and, I do not care if you are a minor genius like Wallace or Mitchell, the sooner you learn that publishing is a business (even on the net) the better.

Poets and story writers tend to resist this, because most poetry and fiction get published for nothing--but it is still, primarily, market generated.

Poets must do other things to live, but success in the genre depends on seeing your product as sellable to your niche audience, and my other point is you have to get bloodied.

Submit, get rejected, get better. It is that simple. I hated rejections. Today, I just try my next market.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hmm, maybe you’re right. It is not as if a perfect novel is going to spontaneously combust from nothing I suppose. I think it is because everything I write in terms of fiction I utterly detest and destroy or delete immediately. I remember that Woolf did the same thing after reading Proust. I seem to have a ‘voice’ for essay writing that I can work with and for sending colleagues humorous extended emails, but nothing in terms of prose fiction. Maybe I should write humorous essays and seek a new market?

I think that what you are saying about people on LN being opposed to seeing writing as business is due to the feeling that ‘literature’ appears to diametrically oppose the world of business. It maybe goes back to the idea of the romantic image of literature and the stale, sort of stuffy world of business. Of course these clichés probably help no one.

[Delta40]

The more I write, the less I read. An observation.

[sytalls]

Jozanny is quite right. Reading books about writing can be a tremendous help, but only if you write and write some more and write some more after that. Every day, if possible. Then get your work in front of somebody. Do it again...fix what's wrong, when it's wrong...show somebody else your work.

sillyman, if you want to write fiction, then read any of the books suggested and follow up your reading with practice, experiment with what you learn. It will be awkward, most likely; the writing will look flat and unruly, most likely; you will want your words and sentences to come out and be beautiful and interesting and the best thing anybody ever put on paper, but they won't do that, most likely.

Your writing will never get better if you don't keep writing and getting valid feedback. It is always the next piece that is better...then the piece after that...and the piece after that. This is for journalism, features, non-fiction in general, as well as fiction.

And in all this, you must have an ego that can withstand insults and harsh remarks while also knowing when to stand down and accept those comments that will help you improve what you have written. Writing and showing your work will give you both the actual experience and put you through the skiin-thickening process.

So write...experiment, practice...there's so much to be gained from the actual doing. There are things you will never understand unless you put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard or chalk to sidewalk.

Write as if it is your job to do so--from the very beginning, as this will help you overcome the common feeling of "I have no right to do this." I think that waiting for some kind of universal permission is why it's terribly difficult for people who want to be writers to accept this simple advice--write!

Delta, the time of not-reading will pass. :) Although during certain phases of writing, reading can lead to comparison demons popping up.

[Virgil]

I couldn't agree with Sytalls more. Write and feedback, that is the key. Reading is important too, but reading from a writer's point of view, not a literary critic. That difference is very important and one I couldn't stress more.

Welcome to Sillyman and Sytalls by the way. Glad you've joined us. :)

[sytalls]

Thanks, Virgil! :)

I've enjoyed reading the comments and discussions posted on this site. There are some interesting insights and observations, and I like that people have a wide variety of tastes and interests.

As you said, the point of view of a literary critic is different than that of a writer, so I may not join in many discussions about books. My comments are likely to be...well, mundane. :D And possibly irrelevant.

But I do love reading the comments of others and seeing how they respond to characters or evaluate storylines, as well as what moved them or caused them not to like a piece of work.

[Virgil]

Thanks, Virgil! :)

I've enjoyed reading the comments and discussions posted on this site. There are some interesting insights and observations, and I like that people have a wide variety of tastes and interests.

As you said, the point of view of a literary critic is different than that of a writer, so I may not join in many discussions about books. My comments are likely to be...well, mundane. :D And possibly irrelevant.

But I do love reading the comments of others and seeing how they respond to characters or evaluate storylines, as well as what moved them or caused them not to like a piece of work.

Well, don't be shy aboout throwing your two cents in the opinion pool. ;) Plus we have creative writing going on here too.

[Jozanny]

Hmm, maybe you’re right. It is not as if a perfect novel is going to spontaneously combust from nothing I suppose. I think it is because everything I write in terms of fiction I utterly detest and destroy or delete immediately. I remember that Woolf did the same thing after reading Proust. I seem to have a ‘voice’ for essay writing that I can work with and for sending colleagues humorous extended emails, but nothing in terms of prose fiction. Maybe I should write humorous essays and seek a new market?

I think that what you are saying about people on LN being opposed to seeing writing as business is due to the feeling that ‘literature’ appears to diametrically oppose the world of business. It maybe goes back to the idea of the romantic image of literature and the stale, sort of stuffy world of business. Of course these clichés probably help no one.

It is not an easy task to know what to destroy and what to keep. It really comes from the experience of learning yourself, which may not make any sense to you, but my published writer *friends* (for lack of a better word) would know what I mean.

But for you Neely, I'd advise: Keep your stuff, and I really don't know how university level education works in England, I read a little about the differences when I was an American student--but, if you can afford it, take some writing classes with an accredited instructor. These normally do not come cheap but they do much more for someone who really wants to be a writer than do online communities. The OP hit on it: The problem with many of them is posts are mundane. LN and sites like it on the whole invite bland conformity (in a paranoid aside, I kowtow to Chris and say no offense:p) and I already feel myself a little too restless with the frequency of my posts and may just throw up my hands with my damn relocation and the horrible loaner bucket which hurts me physically more than my fitted power chair, and just get back to work, stress and lower productivity simply more of the cost.

If you cannot afford something live, then paying for online classes is good, with a little research. Writers Digest/Market send me their courses all the time, and they seem good for the emerging student; maybe they have a mirror British project.

But let me give you a small example of something that may get me nowhere, even with my experience: I started a reaction piece on the basis of all my political reading during the American campaign. I showed a version to a couple of members here, Virgil among them--and it is nothing really. I am not doing any reporting or actual research on it; I am more or less making an educated argument which would be baby food for a high end opinion writer like Michelle Cottle, and part of me knows I am just trying to make a fast buck because I am very well read in high-end political writing, and I have made the rare fast buck doing secondary media pieces on straight news event reporting before; still, I'd like to throw it out, because an informed editor would see it as a rehash unless I suddenly get an inspiration and develop an insight which would be worth paying me for--and that is why I am not tossing it, unlike the horrid thing I wrote about an unpopular senator in 06.

I submitted the horrid thing back then, as it cost me nothing to get ignored, and you never know--but after the election, I was experienced enough to know keeping it would not morph into a better sellable idea, as the senator became a has-been as soon as he was out.

Long post :), but I see part of my role here at the forum as experience informing youth....

[LitNetIsGreat]

Thanks for your thoughts Joz I will think on them, though I have very little time with work and uni to take on anything extra at the moment. I do have access to the university's creative writing department though which I would be able to get on relatively cheaply when possible. Right now though after being faced with a wall of aggression and frustration from work all day thoughts of doing anything much are far from my mind. Need to lay down or get a drink or something.

[Jozanny]

Well, I am not trying to be a big shot, my friend. I am a very published poet who discovered into her maturity that non-fiction is her stronger suit, and fiction is a beach, and I am shortly to be 46, and I am not *there*, and what worries me is maybe I can never reach that point now.

I find it difficult to produce with so much crap hanging over my head. Maybe to another writer it would not matter, but I have been physically uncomfortable for months, and that is not going to change quickly, and my building is next to impossible, and that won't change until late summer, I'm guessing. I have maybe less than 8 weeks left before I have to pack, and how in god's name can I work with an editor when I have to bounce to one unit and then back again? Maybe I should have applied for a residency, but they are competitive and my bylines are not to kill for--and they average 2 to 8 weeks, and if I could get one of them I'd need six months.

I am terribly frustrated--even the best authors are, as they remind us from time to time.

[sytalls]

Well, don't be shy aboout throwing your two cents in the opinion pool. ;) Plus we have creative writing going on here too.

I've noticed there are quite a number of creative souls around here. Excellent!

I'm not shy. :D Thanks for the push, though. I'll certainly jump in the pool from time to time and splash around some.

[Cat_Brenners]

I;m not a fan of sci fi or I would help out. Sorry. I have read some like Steven King.
Not much anymore.
Cat