Fantasy = Stale?

[twilight661]

As a genre, is fantasy starting to lag in quality? With the likes of Christopher Paolini now dominating the market with poor novels -- we certainly need a change. Yes, publishers want to sell books that sell, people are ignorant, people want stale rehashs of what is already on sale. That is at least what the publishers seem to think, nobody knows what they want to read. Yet, Paolini and co, are whoring themselves out, my main problem isn't just the overuse of archetypes and cliches, which makes is ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, makes me want to burn babies, my problem is how the principles have become skewed -- fantasy used to about using imagination for escapism. Now we have a genre of Tolkein rip-offs, there's thousands of mythologies to look into. Why are we putting up with this cowpat?

[Akeldama]

When I was much younger all I read was fantasy, but I grew out of it the exact reasons you stated: everything became stale and formulaic. That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy a good fantasy novel if it were to fall into my lap right now, but I can't be bothered to wade through the genre to find something worthwhile.

It seems as though I've replaced my fantasy reading with "real" mythology, that of the Norse, Greeks, etc. It's much more interesting to me than reading about demi-god wizards and redundant quests to save some mystical land or another.

[JBI]

It is not stale, I think if anything it is finally starting to get good, though it has to lose some of its mediocre giants first, and head towards more imaginative grounds.

[Zee.]

Fantasy, stale? dead?

NEVERRRRR

[kelby_lake]

Can anyone recommend a good fantasy book? Generally i think the genre is pretty bad.

[Zee.]

Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials series.

Northern Lights - Golden Compass if you're in America
The Subtle Knife
Amber Spyglass

[andave_ya]

I haven't read a lot of fantasy, although I am a Lord of the Rings nut. However I've realized that for me, usually fantasy books with a child/children as the main protagonist usually leave me bored. There are no children, per se, in LOTR, so nothing...immature. Why does fantasy have to be for children only, anyway?

[Zee.]

It shouldn't, and most of it isn't.

[aBIGsheep]

I like how you complain about rip-offs but you like twilight.


Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials series.

Northern Lights - Golden Compass if you're in America
The Subtle Knife
Amber Spyglass

I agree full force. I love that series.

[Gustavo L.]

kelby_lake:
George MacDonald’s “Lilith”. There are nor dragons neither knights, and there are no wizards. And, well, it’s in Bloom’s Western Canon at least. :D

[LitNetIsGreat]

I once did a utopian module at university and the tutor claimed that the fantasy genre contained strong capitalist ideology, or rather it was not at all utopian (utopian read Marxist in this sense). Would anyone agree with the tutor's assessment in this case? It must be noted that the tutor in question is highly regarded in this particular field so one tends to take notice, though I had my doubts at the time. He argued that fantasy was primarily concerned with maintaining the established order, therefore being anti-Marxist in that sense. He didn’t want to get drawn into this interesting point however as this was not the objective of the seminar so he didn’t go into further detail to support this argument, shame really. Based upon such short assessment with a lack of supporting arguments I have never really made my mind up on this issue, any suggestions?

Sorry to have diverted the thread somewhat but I felt this was an interesting perspective that some may find of value.

[aBIGsheep]

O' and if you want a new spin on fantasy, go read the comic series 'Fables.' It'll blow your mind.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I once did a utopian module at university and the tutor claimed that the fantasy genre contained strong capitalist ideology, or rather it was not at all utopian (utopian read Marxist in this sense). Would anyone agree with the tutor's assessment in this case? It must be noted that the tutor in question is highly regarded in this particular field so one tends to take notice, though I had my doubts at the time. He argued that fantasy was primarily concerned with maintaining the established order, therefore being anti-Marxist in that sense. He didn’t want to get drawn into this interesting point however as this was not the objective of the seminar so he didn’t go into further detail to support this argument, shame really. Based upon such short assessment with a lack of supporting arguments I have never really made my mind up on this issue, any suggestions?

Sorry to have diverted the thread somewhat but I felt this was an interesting perspective that some may find of value.

Argh, this thought is bugging me now, JBI if you are around please help. :thumbs_up:cool:

[JBI]

Can anyone recommend a good fantasy book? Generally i think the genre is pretty bad.

The Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay.

[Joreads]

[QUOTE=aBIGsheep;654193]I like how you complain about rip-offs but you like twilight.



Sheep I am guilty of that as well. I love Twilight - might be more acurate to say I am obsessed actually:lol:

[andave_ya]

I once did a utopian module at university and the tutor claimed that the fantasy genre contained strong capitalist ideology, or rather it was not at all utopian (utopian read Marxist in this sense). Would anyone agree with the tutor's assessment in this case? It must be noted that the tutor in question is highly regarded in this particular field so one tends to take notice, though I had my doubts at the time. He argued that fantasy was primarily concerned with maintaining the established order, therefore being anti-Marxist in that sense. He didn’t want to get drawn into this interesting point however as this was not the objective of the seminar so he didn’t go into further detail to support this argument, shame really. Based upon such short assessment with a lack of supporting arguments I have never really made my mind up on this issue, any suggestions?

Sorry to have diverted the thread somewhat but I felt this was an interesting perspective that some may find of value.

How is fantasy concerned with keeping the status quo? Taking into consideration that most fantasy books are centered around a quest, however, to destroy some evil thing or take down some villain, I would disagree.

[Niamh]

Fantasy is not dead. As was already said, its getting better.
Poalini is more of a teen fantasy, and the last book was a disapointment. Should have ended with the last book but oh no! its continuing... dragged out.

Can anyone recommend a good fantasy book? Generally i think the genre is pretty bad.

What is possibly the best Fantasy trilogy i have ever read is the Bitterbynde Saga by Cecilia Dart Thornton (The I'll Made Mute, Lady of the Sorrows, Battle of Evernight). It captures a lot of the mythologies of Britain, Ireland, Scandinavia and Contenental Europe. It is truely a masterpiece. Should try it.



Sheep I am guilty of that as well. I love Twilight - might be more acurate to say I am obsessed actually:lol:
Obsessed is an understatement Jo! :lol:

The New Trudi Canavan book is out next month and i'm really looking forward to it. :D

[Joreads]

Has anyone read "The Assiansan Apprentice" series that is suppose to be great also?

Niamh maybe we should start a support group:lol:

[PeterL]

Yes, publishers want to sell books that sell, people are ignorant, people want stale rehashs of what is already on sale. That is at least what the publishers seem to think, nobody knows what they want to read.

Fundamentally that is the problem and has been for a long time. Some of the early fantasy was great, but that was decades ago. The big names in the sub-genre write pointless stories that go no where.

[LitNetIsGreat]

How is fantasy concerned with keeping the status quo? Taking into consideration that most fantasy books are centered around a quest, however, to destroy some evil thing or take down some villain, I would disagree.

That was my first thought, but then again the "evil thing" could be the threat of an utopian possibility? When a group of individuals face a vision of evil and overcome it, they would therefore maintain the traditional order of things. Overall I would side with the tutor, though I only have half a jigsaw piece to go on. Even though I don't have classes with him anymore the next time I see him I'm going to bug him like a sad act.

[aBIGsheep]

Dude, look up socialism, the silver/golden standard controversy, and the Wizard of Oz.

[JBI]

That was my first thought, but then again the "evil thing" could be the threat of an utopian possibility? When a group of individuals face a vision of evil and overcome it, they would therefore maintain the traditional order of things. Overall I would side with the tutor, though I only have half a jigsaw piece to go on. Even though I don't have classes with him anymore the next time I see him I'm going to bug him like a sad act.

In a sense it works more interestingly on another level - the fact that the villain always seems to be alien, and "other" in fantasy. I find it interesting to note the connections with evil and blackness in Tolkien for instance.

But I think fantasy is more interestingly approached from a feminist perspective, after all, the industry seems to be, for the most part, males writing for males. In a sense fantasy, I would argue, creates a frame for the existence of abandoned patriarchal notions within a detached version of reality. It is not OK to treat women is such ways, but in fantasy, the moral ethic is ignored, simply because no one questions it.

The other in general is marginalized within fantasy. The notion of a chosen person undermines the notion of a collective, and the existence of nobility, and that which is noble, or special undermines the collective in general as well.

In the end, the farmboy Rastignac who ends up the king is glorious, in the sense that he lets his poor relatives and beginnings burn, while becoming the elite, by means of his hidden nobility - a divine right - not by means of justice.

In truth, a fantastic vision of the "good" automatically creates a problem, being that what is good is not so clear. In order for a perceived vision of good to exist, there must be a bad, and when there is a bad, there need to be associations. It would be interesting to see, for instance, a cross reference of traits that go against the English, or American, or even Canadian values found in fantasy villains.

In a sense, I think the genre in itself, in the American form always seems to be an allegory of America itself, where the farmboy is the booming nation - featuring the coming of age so typical of earlier forms of American literature.

The English on the other hand, I would argue, use fantasy to maintain their national pastoral, their Beatrix Potter marry ol' England. I know critics within the genre have argued as such, notably the author Michael Moorcock in his essays, particularly Epic Pooh, where he compares epic fantasy trends, and Tolkien to Winnie the Pooh esque childish garbage.

I think Canadians do it a little bit better, given that we are, I would argue, more attuned to wider perspectives than a solid identity, as we generally do not have a single identity.

[Silas Thorne]

I know critics within the genre have argued as such, notably the author Michael Moorcock in his essays, particularly Epic Pooh, where he compares epic fantasy trends, and Tolkien to Winnie the Pooh esque childish garbage.



...A bit off topic, have you read 'Postmodern Pooh'? I was very entertained by it.
:)

[Bluebeard]

I think Canadians do it a little bit better, given that we are, I would argue, more attuned to wider perspectives than a solid identity, as we generally do not have a single identity.

Aside from Kay, any other recommendations of Canadian fantasists? It is a convincing argument that a varied cultural identity would help in the task of crafting an entire, often alien world.

[Silas Thorne]

I think Canadians do it a little bit better, given that we are, I would argue, more attuned to wider perspectives than a solid identity, as we generally do not have a single identity.

I'm not sure whether any nationality can have a single identity, apart from on paper, for official purposes. I'm a New Zealander, a Scot, I've studied a Japanese martial art, I speak in Chinese at home, I'm impressed by Buddhism, which comes originally from India. Everyone has their own individual situation, has absorbed multiple cultural influences, that makes them who they are.

[JBI]

I'm not sure whether any nationality can have a single identity, apart from on paper, for official purposes. I'm a New Zealander, a Scot, I've studied a Japanese martial art, I speak in Chinese at home, I'm impressed by Buddhism, which comes originally from India. Everyone has their own individual situation, has absorbed multiple cultural influences, that makes them who they are.

Wait, are you Chinese or Scottish - I'm confused. Either way though - that makes you somewhat of a minority. There are many people who speak one language, have friends of only one group, and biased cultural views.

I think the Lit net top 100 shows cultural bias enough - notice the abundance of English and American novels, and the non-existence of Asian, and the virtual non-existence of Latin-American, or Eastern European, with the exception of Russian, work?

Not everyone has a wide range - I know I myself have a somewhat limited one, being that I am reduced to translations, and that I study English literature primarily, so my exposure is limitted even further. I don't think my view of Fantasy is too much of a stretch.

As for Canadians, I don't like to talk about Canadian fantasy authors on aesthetic grounds, because frankly most are mediocre, but an author like Charles de Lint I would say has a wider scope, and is beyond the good/evil epic vein.

[JBI]

Oh, and another good contemporary Canadian fantasy author, Catlin Sweet. Of course, this author's works seems a lot more clean cut, and dependent on convention, but the interesting notion is the author's use of a female protagonist, which changes the emotional range, and perspective of the novel. I would also think this authors work interesting beyond that, given her considerable talent at the execution of prose, which, I would say, she has taken far beyond the extent expected in genre work.

I think it is somewhat interesting to note also the acceptance of new historicist thought in some fantasy authors work, notably I would say Kay. The treatment of history as narrative creates interesting things, when given perspective, and I think fantasy allows authors to explore this at a more abstract level, rather than surviving on what is known of history, rather than a more objective grounding.

As it is, that is also, I would say, central to Sweet's work, given that she is interested, I would think, in the power of myth, which is a very raw concept, which was probably, I would think, borrowed in part from the Canadian novelist Margret Laurence, whose last book is completely preoccupied with these notions. As it is, the breaking down of the fantasy common tropes, which preoccupy her work, are a means of dissecting mythology, and its implications, rather than creating a fake set of myths, and playing off characters within them.


I think common fantasy functions on a level where history is fact, to an extent, unless there is a "hidden history" of sorts, good is real, and bad is real, and nobility is inherited, to an extent - that varies in part by author, but it seems to put emphasis on genetic ability over hard work. I don't know - I feel that these notions, in terms of scope, stem, at least in part, from at first an English colonial vision, and then, after perhaps the 60s and 70s, an American (and I hate to use this word, as it is sure to draw some sort of criticism) colonial, or perhaps just hegemonic, perspective.

Perhaps these cultural trends are more apparent, from what I know, in comic books, but for the most part, they seem central to much of contemporary fantasy. Whereas the British model seeks a return to the British colonial pastoral, the American model seems to try rather to solidify the current American identity, and perspective, with projections of the alien enemy oppressor, and the liberating heroes who go to protect and free the people. I think, though there are tons of exceptions, as fantasy isn't so monolithic as this, that there is some truth into what I say.

[Sepulchrave]

It is not stale, I think if anything it is finally starting to get good

Agreed.

I find the timing of this thread ironic, considering the recent surge of quality in the genre.

[Gretchen]

There are many fantasy books which are just garbage(Paolini, Meyer, Rowling and that one who wrote the awful series of "The Immortals"), but there are many good, especially the "classic" fantasy books.

Most of the "new fantasy" are just awful formula of childish adventure, I agree with you that this is "a genre of Tolkien rip-offs". They can't create something of their own, because they only think about the money.

[Drkshadow03]

This list might be a good place to start (http://www.bestfantasybook.com/node/6)if you're looking for something a bit more off-beat and different from your usual Epic fantasy. Quite a few of the titles intrigued me.

Similarly, you need to check out:

Jeff Ford, China Mieville, and Kelly Link.

[lyni]

Niamh, if you enjoyed Cecelia Dart-Thornton (which I did also) you might like to read The Seven Waters Trilogy (Daughter of the Forest, Son of the Shadows, Child of the Prophecy) by Juliette Marillier. that is also based on Irish and English folklore. recently a fourth book came out continuing this series so I suppose its no longer a trilogy. perhaps a saga?

[Jozanny]

In truth, a fantastic vision of the "good" automatically creates a problem, being that what is good is not so clear. In order for a perceived vision of good to exist, there must be a bad, and when there is a bad, there need to be associations. It would be interesting to see, for instance, a cross reference of traits that go against the English, or American, or even Canadian values found in fantasy villains.

But is goodness ever concretely identifiable JBI? As I have posted elsewhere, I don't read much fantasy. Science fiction is a different cup of tea, and I think serious science fiction is as good as serious literature, and that writers like Lessing and Mitchell grasp this--but I do not have to go Medieval to find the inexplicable hero. Dumas, who I know you do not like, assumes the innate is verifiable. Edmond Dantes is simply a straight arrow, from his opening rescue of his owner's ship, to his sail away with his princess. We root for him despite this one-dimensional quality because he is honorable, noble, and we enjoy that he thwacks naughty bankers and cowardly officers. Without Dantes there would not have been the modern Batman either--and Bruce Wayne, too, has an innate nobility about him, a secular knight for the modern world who understands the dark side of hubris.

I love Batman, and that is just the way it is. He doesn't spin like a spider, or come from another planet in human form, or goes green and big. He uses his wits, his money, and his own physical agility--but we cannot truly pin down the qualities of his heroism. TH White makes this nearly his entire thesis on Arthur in The Once and Future King.

[Niamh]

Has anyone read "The Assiansan Apprentice" series that is suppose to be great also?

Niamh maybe we should start a support group:lol:

:lol: like TA? (twilighters Anonymus) :brow:

Niamh, if you enjoyed Cecelia Dart-Thornton (which I did also) you might like to read The Seven Waters Trilogy (Daughter of the Forest, Son of the Shadows, Child of the Prophecy) by Juliette Marillier. that is also based on Irish and English folklore. recently a fourth book came out continuing this series so I suppose its no longer a trilogy. perhaps a saga?
You know what? I might actually look into that series. Thanks. I like fantasy series' rooted in Lore. :nod:

[JBI]

I personally could not stand The Assassin's Apprentice - Hobb's writing is godawful, and her pacing is so darn mediocre. Really, I feel the book is a cliché Bildungsroman, watered down, and relying desperately on convention, rather than innovation. The plot was almost silly in its predictability, and quite frankly, the book could have been written in 100 pages, and saved me time.

[kelby_lake]

I keep meaning to read the Pullman trilogy and will probably get around to it eventually. I like fantasy to still have a human edge to it and for the world to actually be somewhere I'd want to be. For normal novels I'd love to be in Brideshead Revisited :) but I just don't get that feeling with fantasy books.

[Joreads]

[QUOTE=Niamh;656221]:lol: like TA? (twilighters Anonymus) :brow:

QUOTE]

What a great name I like it.

[Joreads]

I personally could not stand The Assassin's Apprentice - Hobb's writing is godawful, and her pacing is so darn mediocre. Really, I feel the book is a cliché Bildungsroman, watered down, and relying desperately on convention, rather than innovation. The plot was almost silly in its predictability, and quite frankly, the book could have been written in 100 pages, and saved me time.

Thanks JBI it was on my list I am have to take it off now.:)

[Niamh]

Thanks JBI it was on my list I am have to take it off now.:)

If you havent read the black Magicians trilogy by Trudi Canavan, read it.

[kelby_lake]

[QUOTE=Niamh;656221]:lol: like TA? (twilighters Anonymus) :brow:

QUOTE]

What a great name I like it.

Reminds me of school book club, Bookaholics Anonymous. Made us sound like loonies (no, I didn't choose the name!)

[aBIGsheep]

That reminds me of author's anonymous. It was a club at my school and people would meet in a room and share short stories. They were weird anime fan-fics and comic book mary sues. Bleh.
For some relevance to the topic: they all ADORED fantasy novels.

It wasn't all that anonymous, actually. They just needed a name.

[Drkshadow03]

That reminds me of author's anonymous. It was a club at my school and people would meet in a room and share short stories. They were weird anime fan-fics and comic book mary sues. Bleh.
For some relevance to the topic: they all ADORED fantasy novels.


Oh no! Horror of Horrors! Not "weird" anime fan fiction. The world must be coming to an end!

To also bring this back on topic, interestingly enough I think some of the best fantasy being written today is in short form rather than long form. So you might want to check out the Strange Horizons website and Clarkesworld Magazine and Chizine has pretty good stuff too.

[Nightshade]

Fantasy is always good... well ok I lie but there is always something new its just it seems people only ever hype up the same kind of stuff and the good stuff sort of gets lost. Like what was it the fantasy book of the year for 2006(?) firethorn I thought was the worst fantasy book Id ever read, there was nothing in it as far as I could figure except descriptions of flowers and scenery and lots of sex...needless to say I got very bored very quickly with that one. But I have seen a couple of books in the book store recently by K. E Mills who also writes as karen miller that look like they might be really good.


If you havent read the black Magicians trilogy by Trudi Canavan, read it.
Meh, I didnt like the end of that trilogy although admittedly the first 2 were brill

:lol: like TA? (twilighters Anonymus) :brow:

You know what? I might actually look into that series. Thanks. I like fantasy series' rooted in Lore. :nod:
You know what niamh? I told you about marillier ages ago, but I think the one of hers you would love the most is Wildwood Dancing its her teen-y one but its brill and clever with it.

[Niamh]

Meh, I didnt like the end of that trilogy although admittedly the first 2 were brill
I've read them three times now, and i like the ending now...still wish it was different but it like it.
Her new book is out soon. Magicians apprentice.

You know what niamh? I told you about marillier ages ago, but I think the one of hers you would love the most is Wildwood Dancing its her teen-y one but its brill and clever with it.

you know what you did! i was rummaging through the Anyone for coffee thread yesterday and there it was! around pg 46-63 cant recall which one.

[Joreads]

[QUOTE=Joreads;656496]

Reminds me of school book club, Bookaholics Anonymous. Made us sound like loonies (no, I didn't choose the name!)

I think we are way past the point of being simply loonies :lol::lol: We are down right nuts now and loving it:D

[faithalina]

For most of my reading life, I've stuck to the classics...only in the last few years have i ventured forth into the unknown world of fantasy, thanks to my students (it's important to know what they're reading). So far, i THINK i like it, but based on what i'm reading here...there are 'levels'...i'm stuck in teenage fantasy land...need to break free...that's not to say that i haven't LOVED most of it...although, when i got to the end of Eragon, i couldn't ignore that voice in the back of my mind saying 'luuuuuke, i am your faaaaaather!'

and yes, I too, am obsessed with Twilight...

Thanks for the list of recommended reads...perhaps it's time to branch out a little...

[Nightshade]

Thanks for the list of recommended reads...perhaps it's time to branch out a little...

Tad Williams!!! Neil Gaiman, Prachett.... all good people and different and teen fantasy is pretty much fantastic alot of the time.

I sort of 'discovered' eddings in 2008 havent got very far mind, a grand total of 5 and four fifths books read, not that they arent good..its just I hven't the time *sigh* I think that so far even condisdering the fact that I have yet to manage reading a complete trilogy or quartet I enjoyed the The Redemption of Althalus the most. :D

[JBI]

Tad Williams!!! Neil Gaiman, Prachett.... all good people and different and teen fantasy is pretty much fantastic alot of the time.

I sort of 'discovered' eddings in 2008 havent got very far mind, a grand total of 5 and four fifths books read, not that they arent good..its just I hven't the time *sigh* I think that so far even condisdering the fact that I have yet to manage reading a complete trilogy or quartet I enjoyed the The Redemption of Althalus the most. :D

Not to be sour, but I found Eddings Belgariad (which was the only series of his I read, being that it is supposedly his best) to be some of the worst literature I have ever read. The reduction and fascination with not only clichés, but down right creation of stereotypes is perhaps the baseist of all literature which has ever been popular.

I would make a case to argue that series functions as pure anti-Orientalism (and I mean this in the Edward Said sense) and pure pro-Western propaganda. Essentially he divides the world in half with good and bad, having one side unite to ward off the forces of evil, who ironically have the largest gold-mine (I'm surprised the gold itself isn't black and liquidity) and are pure brutes, and therefore warranted in being destroyed.

But on a darker level, I think his regressive portrayal of women is far worse than the standard misogynist fantasy. I find it ironic that in a world vision of religion is so central, all the gods happen to be male. The series is loaded with anti-female sentiment reducing women to hysterical damsels in distress needing the strength and power of their male counterparts to save them, and to praise them indefinitely in order to find satisfaction. Such portrayal is inexcusable.

Really, of all the fantasy I have read, Eddings's work has got to be among the worst. Hell, of all the books I've read, Eddings's has got to be among the worst, past all the mediocre fiction and doggerel verse.

[Nightshade]

Not to be sour, but I found Eddings Belgariad (which was the only series of his I read, being that it is supposedly his best) to be some of the worst literature I have ever read. The reduction and fascination with not only clichés, but down right creation of stereotypes is perhaps the baseist of all literature which has ever been popular.

I would make a case to argue that series functions as pure anti-Orientalism (and I mean this in the Edward Said sense) and pure pro-Western propaganda. Essentially he divides the world in half with good and bad, having one side unite to ward off the forces of evil, who ironically have the largest gold-mine (I'm surprised the gold itself isn't black and liquidity) and are pure brutes, and therefore warranted in being destroyed.

But on a darker level, I think his regressive portrayal of women is far worse than the standard misogynist fantasy. I find it ironic that in a world vision of religion is so central, all the gods happen to be male. The series is loaded with anti-female sentiment reducing women to hysterical damsels in distress needing the strength and power of their male counterparts to save them, and to praise them indefinitely in order to find satisfaction. Such portrayal is inexcusable.

Really, of all the fantasy I have read, Eddings's work has got to be among the worst. Hell, of all the books I've read, Eddings's has got to be among the worst, past all the mediocre fiction and doggerel verse.


Humm :D never said it had a great deal of literary worth, and I havent read that series but the one that was republished as part of the voyager classics series ( wierdly alongs side the greats such as Huxley, Asimov and Bradbury) was the first Sparrahawk trilogy Elenium now Ive git about 70 pages left of the last one but I know what is going to happend because Ive seen the blurb of the next book what with shelving and all, and I will say that all the 'heroes' were very westernised while the 'villians' ( well actually they arent even that they are more like puppets who are too silly to know what is happenintg) seemed more 'eastern'. But there is no way women are missih in that trilogy the main god, or at least the smartest one is female and perhaps the second most importtant and one of the stronger charcters is female. ANd in the redemtion well the main and stongest charcter is female- well at least the way I read the book.

Then again everyone is entitled to their opinions, I HATE The lord of the rings and don't even get me started on Verne..:D

[Cat_Brenners]

I like fantasy as in fairies and unicorns and such. Some things called fantasy is sci fi to me and I don't care for that much.
Cat

[Taliesin]

As for Canadians, I don't like to talk about Canadian fantasy authors on aesthetic grounds, because frankly most are mediocre, but an author like Charles de Lint I would say has a wider scope, and is beyond the good/evil epic vein.


JBI, I immensely enjoyed "Someplace To Be Flying" by de Lint - could you suggest some other good novels by him?

[1n50mn14]

Guy Gavriel Kay is a fantastic author, I'm glad JBI brought him up xD.

It's the same with every genre- many things are become redundant after enough books are written, hence why, when a truly good book comes along, it should be recognized and acclaimed.

[JBI]

Try Memory and Dream by De Lint. I can't remember the details, but I think it was about paintings coming to life, and the role of the artist, and other such things.

[Drkshadow03]

Not to be sour, but I found Eddings Belgariad (which was the only series of his I read, being that it is supposedly his best) to be some of the worst literature I have ever read.

Ditto JBI's comments about Eddings. I've read The Redemption of Athalus, and stopped in the middle because it just wasn't very good. There is much better fantasy out there.

[Silas Thorne]

Has anyone read R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series? I thought that was a very original epic, a cross between sci-fi and fantasy, but with rather non-standard fantasy characters and a harshly realistic fantasy world. I finished the series wanting to read more, even though, and maybe because, the character at the beginning of the trilogy I thought was the hero turned out to be a great deal less than heroic in the standard sense.

Oh, just found out that the author was a Canadian too. :)

[Drkshadow03]

Has anyone read R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series? I thought that was a very original epic, a cross between sci-fi and fantasy, but with rather non-standard fantasy characters and a harshly realistic fantasy world. I finished the series wanting to read more, even though, and maybe because, the character at the beginning of the trilogy I thought was the hero turned out to be a great deal less than heroic in the standard sense.

Oh, just found out that the author was a Canadian too. :)

I actually recently bought this trilogy because it received rave reviews from many of my trusted sources in the speculative fiction community (i.e. the ones who typically like the literary end of speculative fiction).

The author was ABD towards his Ph. D. in philosophy. I always find it interesting in Epic fantasy to see how one's area of study affects the fantasy world being constructed.

[Silas Thorne]

Abd? ?

[Drkshadow03]

Abd? ?

All but dissertation. After you finish all of your Ph. D. coursework and Comp Exams (assuming said program has such exams), you are considered All But Dissertation. The only thing left to do is write up the dissertation and defend it.

[Silas Thorne]

Thanks. That means he had done all the coursework, but hadn't submitted the thesis, right?

In New Zealand the first half of the Masters (for Arts subjects anyway) has coursework (which is an Honours year),and the second half is the Masters thesis.The PhD is a thesis and an oral defence , with no coursework.

[Silas Thorne]

sorry, didn't see your last post before I sent that. clarifies things a lot.

[Silas Thorne]

Didn't mean for it to get off topic. Yes it's interesting how the subject someone studies influences their writing. Like Tolkein, who was a language and Old English literature specialist...

[Drkshadow03]

Thanks. That means he had done all the coursework, but hadn't submitted the thesis, right?

In New Zealand the first half of the Masters (for Arts subjects anyway) has coursework (which is an Honours year),and the second half is the Masters thesis.The PhD is a thesis and an oral defence , with no coursework.

In the U.S. it is a bit more complicated. Every college is slightly different:

1) We have colleges that only offer a Masters in subjects.

2) Other colleges, which only offer a Ph. D. program. You go in after finishing undergrad.

3) While still others that have Master/Ph. D. programs, which means that once you graduate with your Masters from that program, you need to reapply to the Ph. D. program if you want to get in and the Ph. D. program only accepts people who have already earned their Masters at other colleges.

Usually once you complete your Master's coursework about ten 3 credit classes, you then start your Ph. D. coursework (72 credits total, 12 of which can be towards your dissertation). So 60 credits worth of courses, double what you have to do for a Masters typically. In the program where I got my Masters, the Ph. D students had to successfully pass three Comp Exams with booklists in their areas of interest prior to becoming ABD.

[JBI]

How many courses is 72 credits? Here 1 year course is one credit, and one semester course is half a credit.

[Drkshadow03]

How many courses is 72 credits? Here 1 year course is one credit, and one semester course is half a credit.

One course typically equals 3 credits. So 20 courses of actual coursework in a Ph. D. program (about two years), and 12 credits worth of dissertation (about a year to two years). I'm not even sure I have ever heard of a one year course in the Humanities, at least not in any of the colleges I attended. I actually think that's a really good idea, though.

[Admin]

Danger Danger Will Robinson! Thread off on tangent, must course correct now!

Tired of childish fantasy where a young boy finds powerful ring/dragonegg/sword etc and has to go on a journey to save/destroy it/the world?

Tired of one dimensional characters and fantasy that puts the "typical" in archetypical, worlds where the good guys are infallible and impervious and where the bad guys all wear black hats?

I have a book for you.

A Game of Thrones (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553381687?ie=UTF8&tag=everythingshak06&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0553381687) by George R.R. Martin.

How often, ladies and gentlemen, do I, your lofty admin, come down from my cloud fortress to actually join a thread? Not very often, and yet here I am, that should tell you something. I do not recommend this book lightly.

This is a complex, extremely well written, adult (and I mean adult in every sense of the word, this book is R rated), character drama set in a fantasy world. There are two fantasy series I would call literature, this one, and Lord of the Rings. The rest is just pulp fiction.

Not to say this is like Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Rings has archetypical characters (it defined them), this has none of the sort. A Song of Ice and Fire (the series to which A Game of Thrones belongs) has nothing but gray characters, no one is all good, or all bad, they're just shades of gray. But the quality and complexity of the books, that is what makes it literature. Other authors have tried but their dreck (I'm looking at you Stephen Donaldson) is nothing but pretentious use of a thesaurus upon a simplistic and predictable plot.

I really cannot recommend the books enough, so long as you're old enough, you should definitely pick up this book, you will not be disappointed.

[speck]

Can anyone recommend a good fantasy book? Generally i think the genre is pretty bad.
I thought The Stolen Child by Keith Donohue was interesting.

[Nightshade]

How often, ladies and gentlemen, do I, your lofty admin, come down from my cloud fortress to actually join a thread? Not very often, and yet here I am, that should tell you something. I do not recommend this book lightly.

.

Wow! That really is saying alot, mind there has been quite a long thread ( realtivly speaking just for this series..
Anyway just rembered someone else I stumbled across, in the last couple of years, a bit wierd but I really enjoyed his books, is A. Lee Martinez.
:D

[Niamh]

I thought The Stolen Child by Keith Donohue was interesting.

I didnt like that. It bored me to pieces and i couldnt finish it.

[Taliesin]

How often, ladies and gentlemen, do I, your lofty admin, come down from my cloud fortress to actually join a thread?

Deciding by your post count, 2778 times up till now.

[Nightshade]

Deciding by your post count, 2778 times up till now.

Actually a quick stalking reveals the number to be about 476 times... thats not including litnet advise and news and ahh help posts which is what the rest is made up of ...:D and the 900+ newsletters

[kelby_lake]

By the way I like fantasy mixed into an ordinary world (not Twilight).

[Maryana]

Twilight is just terrible) The worst fantasy I've ever tried to read. Maybe I'd have read it at the age of sixteen)

I do like fantasy but not the "fantasy where a young boy finds powerful ring/dragonegg/sword etc and has to go on a journey to save/destroy it/the world". In Russia, we have bookstores packed with this stuff, too. You're really lucky that most of it will never be translated into English) These are commercially successful projects but I don't have a clue why they are successful. It's nothing like LOTR or even Harry Potter)

[Modest Proposal]

I know this a resurrected thread, or for the sake of fantasy I should say undead..., but I will drop in my 2 cents for anyone else who hasn't read this whole thread but would like to read some solid fantasy.

Besides the obvious "classics" like 'Gargantua and Pantagruel' or 'Gulliver's Travels', there are some very solid authors who write fantasy or delve into it.

Ursula Leguin has a brilliant series entitled "The Earthsea Saga", a brilliant little novel called "The Lathe of Heaven" and some very solid children's fantasy.

Guy Gavriel Kay has some fairly good books in the genre such as "A Song for Arbonne" and "Tigana." Both use subtler devices, better language and more complicated characters and plots to further the genre's boundaries.

As the admin above said, GRR Martin writes a much stronger (adult) high fantasy than is usually found. I don't recommend the series as highly as the Admin, but it is a nice enhancement of the field of high fantasy, if not quite a revolution.

John Crowley writes VERY difficult but absolutely incredible work. Read Harold Bloom's review of 'Little, Big'. If the crotchety aesthete can be converted, so can you.

Philip K Dick writes SF that often comes off as more fantastic, it is certainly not the science-based 'hard' SF.

In this catagory is also a BRILLIANT writer named Gene Wolfe whose Book of the New Sun is a mind-blowing fantasy/SF epic retelling of the old-testement. Figure that out.

Walter Miller's 'A Canticle for Liebowitz' also strides the SF/Fa line but is surely more SF. The reason I recommend it, besides its being genius, is that the things that turn off non-SF fan's like tons of techno-babble are not present.

My last sort-of SF recommendation will be Adam's "The Hitchhiker's Guide". Just read it and find out what everyone is laughing about that you don't get.

Honestly, CS Lewis, whatever your religion wrote some pretty great youth work. The Chronicles of Narnia are really such an amazing accomplishment in writing. I look at Gaiman and Rowling and am not near as impressed, not really even the highly touted Pullman came close in my opinion. If you want an older and very, very impressive Lewis book I heartily recommend, "Till We Have Faces". A retelling of the Cupid and Psyche myth.

An even better Lewis, and less polemical, is G K Chesterton. He is a master prose smith and his work "A Man Called Thursday" is nothing less than astounding.

There are a couple other good author's that I've read and a few who write acceptable 'high fantasy' (see: boy-finds-a-sword-and-kills-the-king-of-evil) such as Tad Williams and Robin Hobb, but really, I've gotten away from these. There is a lot of stuff on the margins that is surpassing the staling Tolkien-esquers.

If you want REALLY good fantasy (and don't want to go back centuries), I must refer you to some of the masters of magical realism and other contemporary forms.

Marquez, Rushdie, Morrison, Kafka and Borges are all incredible reading experiences and besides exploring the fantastic, have come to define some of the highest moments of literary achievement in the century. Other authors like Chabon have started bridging the gap between 'literary fiction' and fantasy with works like "The Yiddish Policeman's Union", an alternative history.

I'm tired. And done. I leave you with one last talented man, though more a better Gaiman than a lesser Kafka, and that is Peter S. Beagle. "The Last Unicorn" is a beautiful and funny work as is "Tamsin" and The Innkeeper's Song."

[Maryana]

...and his "Come, Lady Death", which I first read when I was ten and which is probably one of the most strange and fascinating short stories I've ever read.

"Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell" by Susanna Clarke is no stupid save-the-world fantasy. It is intentionally old-fashioned in style and the world described isn't ordinary: England in the times of Napoleonic wars, some crazy version of elves, which is, in fact, rather close to Britain legends and fairy-tales, and dull English gentlemen studying magiс:)

"Little, big", "A Man Called Thursday", "Till We Have Faces"... they are really astonishing, all of them, the point is that they are anything but fantasy. Or, at least, not the fantasy people are used to.

[Modest Proposal]

It's nice to know that others are enjoying some of the periphery that fantasy has to offer. It's funny that, really, the fantastic is at the heart of some of the most cherished world literature and it is only relatively recently that it has gotten its current reputation as worthless.

I have Clarke's book on my shelf but its daunting weight has kept me shy up till now, I 'spose I should give it a shot.

[Night_Lamp]

Okay, I admit I didn't read the whole thread. BUT as someone who besides Tolkien and Lewis, never really got into fantasy; one name has recently sparked an interest: Ursula Le Guin. What an amazing writer! Her works continue to astound me with every book.

For anyone who has not read The Left Hand of Darkness it is truly recommended as worthy of reading regardless of your opinion about fantasy.

[Il Dante]

IMHO there is basically one major problem that plagues fantasy, and has plagued it since the beginning. The problem: there is a sad tendency among many (not all) fantasy writers to pay more attention to what they are talking about than how they are talking about it. To put it in less abstract terms, too many fantasy writers are more interested in quests/dragons/magick/golems/elves/etc. than telling their story in a way that is sublime, artistic, and masterful. They need to know that it is not sufficient to have a neat subject; you must also write about your subject in a neat way.

It seems to me that most of fantasy's woes lie with high fantasy. Beware, for here be cliches! For instance, why must the imaginary fantasy world always be a medieval civilization?!?!? Why not create a fantasy world that is in its renaissance, or in an industrial age, or in a futuristic situation, or in something else altogether?

Another thing that drives me up the wall: why do most characters from high fantasy always have to be either stock characters or personality-less? Why can't they have nuance? personality? quirks? Why can't fantasy writers ever create characters who are normal people? Must every line a character utters have Shakespearian pretensions? Must every single line do nothing but forward the quest/plot/story? Don't these characters have personal dreams? hopes? aspirations? No, they don't because they are not living, breathing personalities, but simply automatons interacting with quests/dragons/magick/elves/dwarves/& etc.

Some fantasy avoids the above problems. But too many don't.

[lyni]

Juliet Marillier has put out another of her fantasy books it is a stand alone not a trilogy. I have recently finished reading it. the name is Hearts Blood. a bit spooky but a great read.
another fantasy book I have recently read is Hyddenworld - Spring by William Horwood. it is set near Birmingham, England with invisible small beings living on the edge of the human world. the only bad thing about it is that this book is Spring. the next one will be Summer and it will not come out until next year then one per year for each of the seasons. so there is a long way to go.
both these books are great reads for fantasy fans.

[Aravona]

I love fantasy, its a great way to lose yourself. However, I've read my fair share and there is definately a small niche of very well written fantasy which is a good read for all.

Starting with the biggest series I've ever read, A Song of Ice and Fire is ultimately the longest (and in some cases a bit bored) fantasy I think I've ever seen - possibly with the exception of the Wheel of Time series (yet unread but on the to-read list) Massively descriptive but I must say when I hit the 5th or so book, half of it I had forgotten. I tried to re-read it and I just got bored. Its very descriptive and while this is a good thing in a novel its verging on being over the top. But if anyones a Tolkien fan, its definately something along his epic writings.

The discworld series is one of the only set of fantasy books that I feel has the balance between descriptive, entertaining, and most importantly gripping. They're definately not childrens books. I must say that it takes a wonderful mind to write a book that will read innocently to a child - just a great story with lots going on - and at the same time read to an adult as a dark and sarcastic tale.

If I had to pick, just one fantasy book to re-read and not touch any others... I'd be sitting forever deciding but I have a feeling I'd end up picking 'Stolen - Kelley Armstrong' second book in her 'Women of the Otherworld' series and I just adore these books. They inspired me to start writing, the books are so worn I may have to re-invest in some new copies.

My fiance's uni looked down on fantasy (Creative Writing Degree course) and yet I don't think any of them really got past the 'Harry Potter' stylings of most childrens fantasy, while still great books theres a whole league of fantasy that can wipe the floor with the mainstream books. People should always give fantasy a try ;)

[Aragorn Elessar]

It's true that there are many authors today getting away with fantasy works that did not require much thought and are indeed lagging in quality compared to older works. But don't just look at the most popular books out there. There are a lot of great fantasy books out there that just aren't as widely recognized but are very well-written and deserve a bit more attention. However, the fantasy fan base has become a bit too modernized, and that has added to the widespread development of poorly written, trite and unoriginal fantasy books in later days. But just take a closer look and you'll surely find some fantasy books published within the last decade that will take your breath away.

However, I find it rather unusual that the postman (as I like to say) of this thread is a Twilight fan. I like your view on modern books often being a little trite and so forth, but I think Twilight is a perfect example of such unoriginality. But I have nothing against it; I'm sure the author liked it, and obviously a lot of fans like it, and that's the important thing when it comes to writing and reading fantasy books: the pure joy of it.