The question of theism and atheism

[blazeofglory]

In point of fact I am really confused and I think others too regarding this question about theism and atheism.

Some posters argue that beleif in Jesus is above all else, truisms, good deeds, charitable works, philanthropic acts. And even if one does totally devote oneself to the cause that help the poor and uplift the downtrodden, feed the hungry, heal the wounded and yet if one does not beleive in Jesus his life is not worthwhile.

God is not a name, and Jesus is just a name and nothing else. And if one does not take his name and yet follows the path blazed by Jesus, he must be praised.

Jesus did not teach theism and atheism and he is above all things and symbolizes love and compassion.

Even if one is an atheist and follows the ideals or the path of Jesus he is a true believer. And it is not words that matter but deeds.

[Rush_of_Blood]

i think i might have an answer, but i want to make sure that i understand what you mean. could you just explain more fully what you mean by these two statements:

God is not a name, and Jesus is just a name and nothing else. And if one does not take his name and yet follows the path blazed by Jesus, he must be praised.

Even if one is an atheist and follows the ideals or the path of Jesus he is a true believer. And it is not words that matter but deeds.

[JacobF]

Even if one is an atheist and follows the ideals or the path of Jesus he is a true believer.

I don't really agree with this. I'm an atheist and Jesus is one of my favourite historical figures. Still, that doesn't necessarily mean I believe he was the "messiah" nor do I believe in God. It just means I strive to have compassion and tolerance towards all beings, as Jesus did. The word 'believer' in and of itself is black or white: you either believe in God or you don't (unless you are agnostic).



And it is not words that matter but deeds.


I do agree with this. As I mentioned in another thread, it makes no sense that an 'evil' person can arbitrarily accept Jesus and go to heaven, yet a 'good' person who has devoted their life to being a benefactor to humanity and a compassionate person will go to hell for not accepting Jesus. Seems quite opposite to what Jesus himself may say.

[NikolaiI]

Lord Jesus Christ preached God-consciousness. He said the most important thing was to love God. So this is the center of everything he taught.

Now, you advocate serving humanity above anything else. But if one follows the commandment to love God - that is, if one is immersed in love of God - then altruistic or philanthropic acts follow automatically. But the philanthropic acts are not in themselves enough. We must serve God, otherwise we are increasing ignorance.

We are all parts and parcels of God, just as our body parts are parts of us. A hand, if it is separated from the body, may still resemble a hand but it has no functions. Similiarly we are created from Krsna, who is the root of existence. Since we are part and parcel of God, our primary purpose in this life is to serve the Supreme.

God is inconceivable to the materialists, and impersonalists. One idea is that if there were God, there would not be suffering. But I have studied many writings, and I have found the mystics paint an interesting view... not all mystics are theists, but I believe the greatest of them are. Mysticism is something which is not part of oridnary life. Our ordinary life deals with immediate terms and concepts, but mysticism is something which transcends these, which penetrates veneers to find the essence. Above all mysticism is revelation, which is a process of accelerated learning or insight.

All of this life, everything is connected and interdependent. We exist, and we wonder what we are. Can't we define it?

Some say we are the body, some say we are the soul. I am one of the latter.

Why do I believe in theism? Why am I a theist? Yes, because of scriptures, because of devotees, because of teachers. All is part of the same whole. The question of what are the laws of the universe is a very valid one. There are scriptures which are sufficient for God-realization in themselves. Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam are the two most important books in human possession, the former as it is the words of God, the latter because it is the story about Him.

Of course we will want to ask, who is Krsna? I would be more than willing to go into this, but it would become incredibly lengthy and it might not be totally right for this thread.

All are part of the same whole, and yes there is truth in different scriptures, poems, teachers. It is rare to find someone interested in these things.

[The Atheist]

In point of fact I am really confused and I think others too regarding this question about theism and atheism.

Some posters argue that beleif in Jesus is above all else, truisms, good deeds, charitable works, philanthropic acts. And even if one does totally devote oneself to the cause that help the poor and uplift the downtrodden, feed the hungry, heal the wounded and yet if one does not beleive in Jesus his life is not worthwhile.

You just need to update your theology, because only a small number of christians actually think that way. Unfortunately, because they're the ones which create the most written words on the subject, it can seem that that view is all-pervasive in christianity.

It isn't.

Roman Catholicism accounts for half of all christians and they definitely believe a life of good works will get you entry to heaven, regardless of whether you've believed in their god in this world. Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopalian and many other Protestant sects believe the same thing and it's only a small number of evangelical Protestant churches which preach the "love Jesus or rot in hell" message.


Jesus did not teach theism and atheism and he is above all things and symbolizes love and compassion.

He most certainly did teach theism. He was most insistent that people worship the christian god.


Even if one is an atheist and follows the ideals or the path of Jesus he is a true believer. And it is not words that matter but deeds.

No. As Jacob notes, living life by the golden rule in no way qualifies as any kind of belief, other than a belief in altruism for its own sake. They may well get to heaven if it actually existed, but it has nothing at all to do with theistic belief. Secular humanists are probably the greatest altruists on the planet, yet they are all atheists.

I know what you mean, though, and I agree with what you're trying to say, but it won't fit into anyone's idea of theistic belief.


Seems quite opposite to what Jesus himself may say.

That's another thing I'd see as a huge conundrum if I had that kind of belief, which is why it's a minority one. Almost all liberal christians I know - a very large number - would stop support of their church if they were forced to believe in Dante's hell.

[lupe]

Originally Posted by blazeofglory:
Even if one is an atheist and follows the ideals or the path of Jesus he is a true believer



I have dedicated my professional life in assisting the ones in need - I am a humanitarian worker. The biggest insult you could adress me is to be a "beleiver".

I prefer people keep their beleifs for themselves. There are indeed deeper motives to help others that just to hope for metaphysical rewards.

[NikolaiI]

In point of fact I am really confused and I think others too regarding this question about theism and atheism.

Some posters argue that beleif in Jesus is above all else, truisms, good deeds, charitable works, philanthropic acts. And even if one does totally devote oneself to the cause that help the poor and uplift the downtrodden, feed the hungry, heal the wounded and yet if one does not beleive in Jesus his life is not worthwhile.

God is not a name, and Jesus is just a name and nothing else. And if one does not take his name and yet follows the path blazed by Jesus, he must be praised.

Jesus did not teach theism and atheism and he is above all things and symbolizes love and compassion.

Even if one is an atheist and follows the ideals or the path of Jesus he is a true believer. And it is not words that matter but deeds.

If one wishes to live perfectly, then one will take very good care of the body. But taking care of the body is included in a healthy life. The soul is the more vital concern. Without the soul the body is nothing. And the body is actually merely the carrier of the soul, like an outer dress. It's been said, what is the benefit of caring for the dress of a drowning man? It helps them not at all. Similarly, philanthropic works are primarily directed at relieving physical suffering, and the state of our soul is more important, especially since it is the reason (usually) why we are homeless or not... (I only say this since many homeless people are this way because of addiction to alcohol or drugs).

[Redzeppelin]

There are indeed deeper motives to help others that just to hope for metaphysical rewards.

Like what?

[NikolaiI]

Ha, Red, nice post. But I would reply to


There are indeed deeper motives to help others that just to hope for metaphysical rewards.

in this way...

most religions, or most religious people I have ever met in my life, (I am traveled and interested in them.) teach or encourage the reason for helping people to be kindness, empathy, compassion, or love.