A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Before I write my thoughts on this series, first let me ask if anyone else has read it? It isn't normal fantasy. It is darker, more realistic, and much more character oriented than some other series. It is my favorite fantasy series by far.

[JBI]

I read the first one, and half of the second. I wasn't impressed - and quite frankly, the treatment of sexuality in that book is more disturbing, in the fact that people want to read that stuff, and are interested in it, rather than impressive.

As for the best fantasy series, well, I would probably go with Earthsea, though Zelazny is very interesting in his Amber works - not to the point of masterpiece mind you, but far more interesting than the perverted Martin.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Hmm, well, if the reality of sex does disturb you so much, I guess that it would not be for you. I'm not sure if you realize this, but sex is very much a part of real life, and is often less than glamorous. To think that it would not exist, or did not exist (as Martin's world is very much a reflection of our own during medieval times), would be a gross naivety.

And, as far as the description goes, Earthsea sounds less than impressive. An awkward boy becomes an apprentice of a wizard and realizes he is destined to be a hero, etc etc. Sounds very original.

[JBI]

It is not that I am prude - I can read books like Lolita unflinchingly - but when an author is obsessed with pre-pubescent virgins being prostituted etc, which is a major factor of the work, and isn't reprehended by any of the book's characters on moral ground, than I find there is a problem. Especially in a world where such horrific events are a reality, I cannot see how any reasonable person can sustain their disbelief long enough to engage in said work with relish, savoring the misogynist undertones of the novel, and "rapist flare" that seems part of the works appeal.

Since it is fantasy, and the setting is detached from reality, it becomes clear that this vision is a projected fantasy of the work's author - this essentially rape fantasy, which, though perhaps there are interesting elements in the text, from a practical perspective I cannot help but finding reprehensible.

I do not want to be quick to label Martin a misogynist, but I'm afraid he comes off that way from his text. But beyond that, there are other grounds for criticism, this is though, for me, perhaps the one deserving the most rebuke.



And, as far as the description goes, Earthsea sounds less than impressive. An awkward boy becomes an apprentice of a wizard and realizes he is destined to be a hero, etc etc. Sounds very original.

You would note, neither books are particularly "original" in that sense. As for LeGuin though, even specialists of fantasy literature on the academic novel single her out as a ground breaker in trends of fantasy narrative, and fantasy coverage. For instance, from what I have read, she was a pioneer in featuring a non-white protagonist, a pioneer in blending cultures other than Western within a western frame (a habit taken up by subsequent authors under her influence), amongst other things. But beyond that, if that is all you see in Earthsea, I wish you luck - I find her later works in the series more interesting, especially when she explores female protagonists, and less conventional themes.
Perhaps not your cup of tea, but to deny LeGuin credit for being original when a) neither is Martin, who, if you request, I can draw a influence graph for, and b) isn't to blame for subsequent authors copying her.

It's like condemning Tennyson for using the line "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all," when he was the first to do so.




To go back to another point, on the subject of Medieval culture, and the realities that you are supposing existed back then, I think that is quite naive. I for one have written on and read works on medieval sexuality, me specifically on medieval prostitution, and I will say it is safe to say that the presentation of sexual activity in Martin is roughly constructed out of a fantasy, perhaps originating in a misreading of bronze age sexuality, and then planted in the medieval setting.

Just so you know, prostitution in the Medieval times isn't as vague a subject as one may imagine, and there are many documents which provide a nice frame work for understanding it. Martin's creation has no real resemblance, which is unsurprising given his removal of a sense of religiosity, which was so central to Medieval thought and culture. Trust me, it is not my naivety which is talking, but the oppsotie. Perhaps it is you who is naive.

[Drkshadow03]

I've read all the books published to date of Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. I like them a lot. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts if you care to share.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Okay, but these portrayals of rape and sexuality (the ones that are disturbing) are not portrayed in a positive light. It isn't like the rapists and what-not are the heroes of the series. And I really don't see Martin as being Mysoginist. There are many strong female characters in the series (Arya, Sansa, Daenerys, Brienne, Catelyn, even Cercie). And I never said that Martin was completely original, just that what he is doing is a bit out of the norm for fantasy.

To say that every novel ever written is a reflection of the author's inner self is quite preposterous. In that case, you shouldn't be reading anything "unflinchingly."

[JBI]

My point, was that they are there to add flavor - to add a sexual aspect - not a thematic one, but to contribute to the fantasy of, I hate to say, stereotypical fantasy novel readers - insert your image here - who read these novels. And I would say with confidence, in the 1 and a half novels I read, that women were portrayed as less than men.

My problem is the nature of fantasy literature in general. Such a thing is designed for detachment from reality, breaking away from the conventions of realism. If such a thing is detached, then it becomes clear that the reader, and the author, wish themselves in this setting.

For a genre which is stereotypically read by males to be portraying women as essentially prostitutes I find irredeemable. but beyond that, I think, given the realities of this world, and the fact that the novel portrays women in that light, that the novel, and its suggestions become problematic.



I think the reason for the text getting away with saying such things is the exception criticism takes with genre work, essentially ignoring it. Had this been transposed into a contemporary setting, in a part of the world where such things still occur (though they occur to a lesser extent generally everywhere in the world) and portrayed women in the same light, I have no doubt people would be outraged.

Either way, I don't think it is to big a stretch to say varrious heroes of the series show misogynist tendencies. From what I read, they show no signs of reprehending things which make medieval society look like a Hilton. To what extent then can you justify these things within the text which are so clearly despicable.


The justification that a text is fantasy, and therefore can feature such aspects to add an "original flavor" is to me even more harmful. It creates a sense that the book is justified in its portrayal by the fact that it is outside realism, whereas sexual slavery, rape, violence against women, forced prostitution, and other such things seen in the first one and a half volumes of the text that I have read still exist.

Misogyny in fantasy literature is still misogyny. If I were writing historical realism to a bronze age society, than that would be different, as that is portraying something in order to add commentary, or to create perspective. The only term I can use for this sort of literature is rapist fantasy.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

"Rapist fantasy"? Whatever.

I still contend that this is not misogynistic, as much of the later parts of the series supports. The female characters even use sex to their advantage.

And, frankly, I find it insulting that just because I enjoy reading the series, that this would somehow suggest I want to rape women. The author does not portray these scenes as something that is enjoyable, but rather leaves the reader with a bad taste, which is the point. You seem to be misinterpreting these parts of the series, thinking that teenage nerds are jacking off to these scenes, and that is the only point to those scenes. I don't know, maybe this says more about your character than it does the reasonable reader.

And, thanks, Darkshadow03, I am glad to see I am not alone. I got so caught up in the back-and-forth with JBI, I passed over your comment, lol.

Spoilers ahead to those who may read the series in the future.


I like how Martin throws the reader for a loop, you never see the things coming. The first thing that comes to mind was the death of Catelyn and Rob, I couldn't sleep that night after that. No book ever affected me that way. To me, it just shows how good Martin is at getting the reader attached to the characters, and I wasn't even a huge fan of Rob or Catelyn (Catelyn especially). The fourth book was definitely the most difficult read. Introducing new characters and plot lines in an already complex story was challenging, but I made sense of it, just need to read slowly. I will probably re-read A Storm ofSwords and A Feast for Crows before the next book comes out, which can't be soon enough.

[JBI]

I didn't say that, you came to that conclusion on your own pre-conceived knowledge, therefore I sense the point is grounded in some truth, which to an extent you see as well.

I don't suggest you are interested in raping people, but I contend that the text itself supports that sort of misogyny. I doubt I am the first to remark on the novels' misogynist content, and I doubt I will be the last. The problem with fantasy though, is it is a, for the most part, male run genre. Mostly male authors, and from what I understand, generally, mostly male readers in the epic vein. What that leads to is a whole stereotyping of women, and a recasting of women in the male fantasy role, deliberately designed, like a pornography video, to entice.

I think even a specialist in the field wouldn't have trouble admitting that female characters are stereotyped to an extent in conventional fantasy literature, the same way that they are stereotyped in a different way in romance novels. The problem though, ends with a conflict of reality verses fantasy.

If I were to transpose what goes on in those novels in a contemporary setting, which is very possible, I would be burned by the media, assuming anyone read the text, and rightfully so. Why is it OK for some make believe women in a fake culture to get a different standard than a realist make believe character?

[Joreads]

Before I write my thoughts on this series, first let me ask if anyone else has read it? It isn't normal fantasy. It is darker, more realistic, and much more character oriented than some other series. It is my favorite fantasy series by far.

This sounds like something i might like. I am going to see if I can pick it up for some holiday reading. My holiday reading list is now offically longer than my holidays:lol:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

If I were to transpose what goes on in those novels in a contemporary setting, which is very possible, I would be burned by the media, assuming anyone read the text, and rightfully so. Why is it OK for some make believe women in a fake culture to get a different standard than a realist make believe character?

Yes, but these aren't in a contemporary setting. The same could be said for countless other novels, fantasy, sci-fi, or otherwise. And, it is acceptable because it is perfectly understood the woman is make believe, as is the whole story. Is it now wrong to create different cultures for a fantasy novel? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

And, again, I will repeat, these scenes are not in some way an endorsement of this sort of behavior.


I didn't say that, you came to that conclusion on your own pre-conceived knowledge, therefore I sense the point is grounded in some truth, which to an extent you see as well.



No, but you insinuated it by labeling it "rapist fantasy."

[JBI]

No, but you insinuated it by labeling it "rapist fantasy."

And I stand by that.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[JBI]

Yes, but these aren't in a contemporary setting. The same could be said for countless other novels, fantasy, sci-fi, or otherwise. And, it is acceptable because it is perfectly understood the woman is make believe, as is the whole story. Is it now wrong to create different cultures for a fantasy novel? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

And, again, I will repeat, these scenes are not in some way an endorsement of this sort of behavior.

Are they or aren't they? If I am to make believe a setting, I can put what ever I want in there, for whatever reason. Why then, would someone put a rapist fantasy into a text. Why would someone deliberately create a world where women are marginalized to such an extent, to make Hamurabi's Babylon look tame?

I can think of a reason - one to project an opposite message, as is the case in the works of Atwood, specifically the Handmaid's Tale, which creates a distopia to comment on such things - a popular trend of feminist writing. But she comments, she doesn't support. That text is a metafiction, whereas I would say Martin's relies on a suspension of disbelief, and an abandonment of reality

The excuse that it's fantasy makes no difference. A rapist is a rapist is a rapist. Those books contain aspects which are disgusting. Try reading some of that out loud to anyone you respect, and see how they take to it.


That being said, the opposite side can say, but look at Lolita. But I think Lolita is different. Lolita is concerned with psychological aspects, and aesthetics. This is simply concerned with portrayal, and not rational. The depictions and acts are there for the pleasure of the reader, to satisfy himself, and not for any other reason. Whereas Lolita self-acknowledges the despicablility of its narrator, Martin on the other hand praises the rapist, giving him titles like Noble, or King, and doesn't leave any comment on the victim, who is disregarded, tossed away. It's almost as if the book is cheering on the reader saying, "Hey Look at this, a rapist fantasy, come watch us gang-rape this poor adolescent virgin and get away with it." and to what purpose? Thematic advancement? no. Plot advancement? Slightly. Setting? Yes that's it. The book wishes to establish this setting. Why? what is the meaning of the text? Perhaps no meaning, but the setting is still there for a reason. Why?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I am done debating with you, because I am sick of you insulting me for enjoying the series.

[JBI]

Yes, sorry for reposting, I didn't see your last post before I posted. As it is, I meant no personal offense, and merely wished to condemn the book, not the readers though, perhaps I got carried away. All the best - I think I'm done here. You probably would get a better response on the attached science fiction and fantasy board, which has a link from the forums - more people probably have read the texts there.

[Drkshadow03]

If I taught a fantasy course at a college level, I think SOIAF (probably just the first book because of time constraints) would be an excellent choice for the Capstone of the course, especially if you're including some Heroic/Epic fantasy in the reading list. It's the perfect book to rethink all the other books that I would probably include. Since one of the main purposes of the book is as critique of epic fantasy, a critique of the simplistic morality of good and evil, a sharp look at the nature of power, and in many ways its themes are extremely modern.

My Essential Question to the class would be: "In what way does Martin de-nobilize the heroes and world of Epic Fantasy?"

On these grounds I think it is worth noting what Martin changes in the traditional Epic Formula:

1) We have a world with very little magic. It's a fantasy world that borders on the realistic because it lacks magic or magical creatures that pervade so many other Epic Fantasies. You don't really need monsters because the humans are the monsters.

2) There is no central character. There is no real protagonist. Is Eddard Stark the protagonist? Jon Snow? Daenerys? Catelyn? Tyrion? Instead of a single protagonist, the chosen hero who can save the world, we are just given characters who we follow and have their own individual concerns. They are neither good nor bad characters.

3) Characters die. They die a lot. This may seem like a negligible point, but if LeGuin was the first to include a non-white hero, Martin can be said to be one of the first fantasy writers to be willing to kill off major characters. This refreshes the genre of Epic fantasy precisely because Epic fantasy often relies on predictably (we already know the hero probably won't die, his companions probably won't die, or if they do they'll come back through a miracle like Gandalf, and the hero will win, etc.) When you have no central hero and you've shown that your willing to kill off major viewpoint characters, suddenly everyone is game and it adds a sense of suspense missing from many major Epic fantasies.

4) What many fans note about the series is that there are no good and evil characters. Fans call the characters morally gray. I would prefer to put it a slightly different way. Instead what we get are perspectives. Everyone has their own moral perspective and rationale for their actions. Pragmatism is pitted against idealism, and pragmatism generally wins.

5) Martin is applying realism to a fantasy world. It is grittier and darker than your typical fantasy. The violence is graphic. The sex is graphic. The Nobles swear. They banter about sexual innuendo and macho bravado. Martin doesn't sugarcoat his fantasy world. For all the claims that Epic fantasy is misogynistic, most of it is a rather sugarcoated sexism (where women just simply aren't major components of the plot other than to be a love interest).

6) Martin clearly has done a ton of research into medieval history and culture. Scenes from his plot have a direct one for one correlation with real historical events. As one commenter I read put it, there is a ton of nuggets for the historian to enjoy.

Of course what Martin is doing with all this is a critique of traditional Epic Fantasy with its unlikely baker boy hero who turns out to be the Chosen One who can then turn to the wise wizard or his own amazing magical ability to perform the quest that defeats the evil Dark Lord where castles and kings and aristocrats are depicted as noble and beautiful, and even violence is a sterile affair (throw a fire-ball and the evil monster disappears into a puff of flame).

In Martin's world there are no heroes (only perspectives), there isn't really much magic (when you kill you have to get up close and personal and there will be blood and screaming and real pain), there is no evil Dark Lord (at least so far), the aristocrats are NOT depicted as being particularly noble or beautiful people other than in their own minds (they commit incest, adultery, rape, murder children, etc.) Not to mention the characters can die. Martin is denobilizing and desterilizing Epic fantasy. He is challenging many of the things that JBI I imagine dislikes about the Epic fantasy genre; Martin's world is not one divorced from reality or meant to provide comfort in predictability. It incorporates a hard-dose of reality into the Epic Fantasy with unglorified, very gruesome violence, and it relishes in its unpredictability.

It's worth noting that even given this gritty realism, Martin never directly depicts a rape that I can remember (I could be wrong about this); he usually talks about them indirectly after the fact. So a) the purpose obviously isn't to titillate because if it were you'd probably want to show it b) there really aren't much grounds to call those scenes a "rape" fantasy because of "A."

As far as Daenerys is concerned. It true that she is 14 and certainly "forced" into marriage to Khal Drogo by her brother, but I wouldn't exactly call that prostitution -- I want to be hesitant here given the various Feminist Theories that point out that often women don't really have much of a choice so it might as well be rape, and that seems to be the case here. However, it has more the quality of an arranged marriage. Daenerys in fact enjoys her life with Drogo as his Queen as is made explicitly clear in the subsequent chapters after her marriage to him.

Now it's true that they show the sex scene between what in our society is a minor and an older man. Most people I've talked to find this scene repulsive, including many male fantasy readers who JBI claims this scene was concocted for as an appeal to them, however, many of them note this scene as the one that really nauseated them.

Still, I think there are narrative reasons to include it:

1) Historical reality. It's based on a medieval setting. Women could marry at 14 in the Middle Ages (see pg. 98 at this link (http://http://books.google.com/books?id=Z4SL2X3uHEAC&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=marriage+age+in+middle+ages&source=web&ots=kil-KE5zCD&sig=uFRGfkk3q2kOq2HxBLx8KEWDy0s&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result)). Likewise, her older brother would've been her guardian and had the right to arrange her marriage.

2) Stylistic reasons. If you're going to include babies getting their heads violently bashed in and are willing to depict incest then you better have a good reason to shirk away from sexuality.

3) Characterization. As I already pointed out this a story about perspective. Everything is siphoned through the character's viewpoints. One viewpoint is Dany's. Dany is about to have sex for the first time, barely knows her husband, and is naturally frightened. It would hold that this constitutes a major event in her life; likewise, there is gender parity shown in the books. When Jon Snow first has sex this is also shown with as much graphicness (if I remember correctly). The Dany scene also serves as a transition from the scared girl who obeys her abusive brother to a Queen who has some agency of her own and is no longer afraid to mock her brother.

Lastly, there is no denying this an extremely misogynist world, but I think that's the point and there seems to be self-awareness of that fact rather than a blind relishing in the misogyny as an appeal to fanboys. In other words, Martin is in fact commenting on the misogyny of his world. The character of Brienne of Tarth (a minor character in the second book who continually grows in importance as she gains a viewpoint in the 3rd book) with her attempts to be a female knight in a man's world and her commentary on those difficulties I think proves this point beyond a shadow of a doubt. In fact, almost all the female characters at some point comment on it.

The rampant sexuality of the female characters isn't so much male fantasy as it is commentary on this world's patriarchal system; by telling the story from the perspectives of the most powerful women, including the Queen herself, we see that no matter what their rank women for the most part can only obtain power in this world through sexual favors. Martin is not putting this perspective forward uncritically, however. There are plenty of counter-examples of women who try to find other means to have agency and power. Arya, Dany, and Brienne are the most obvious of those examples.

In conclusion:

1) We have a lot of female main characters and an extremely diverse cast of women with very different personalities and who have fairly complex motivations (as equally complex as the male characters). Women are not stereotyped, but instead there is diversity.

2) The novel passes the Bechdel test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dykes_to_Watch_Out_For#The_Bechdel_test), which so much fantasy and genre work miserably fails.

3) I think there is evidence in the narrative that it is self-aware of the misogyny and the female characters directly comment on the misogyny in the world and their lack of power.

4) There are quite a few female characters who find agency through means other than sexuality. To put it another way, there are main characters who provide counterexamples to the women who rely on sexuality for power.

On the other hand, it's true that there is a lot of violence against women in the series, and I although I think Martin is in fact commenting on it rather than promoting it, I can also understand why it would be a bit offputting for some people and why some feminists might read it differently than I do.

Nonetheless, if anyone wants to see actual women of a feminist bent discussing the merits and demerits of the series you can try (the vast majority of these women had more positive to say about the series than negative):

The comments of this blog entry (http://aldersgatecycle.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/and-she-was-women-in-fantasy-fiction-a-post-feminist-rant/).

And the comments of this blog entry (http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=2172).

[Jozanny]

I will confess, while observing the usual raging debate between the usual suspects, the series has perked my interest as curious bedtime reading, and I am thinking of buying all 7 or 8 of the books. I do not really enjoy sword and sorcery, but I do like having my expectations challenged, and it seems like they would be with this series.

JBI, I get what you are protesting, even with the skimming I have done, but, otoh, not too many centuries ago, war was a kind of terrorist brutality where rape was, unfortunately, one of the weapons used to force submission. The Mongol survived history for a reason.

[Joreads]

[QUOTE=Jozanny;649682]I will confess, while observing the usual raging debate between the usual suspects, the series has perked my interest as curious bedtime reading, and I am thinking of buying all 7 or 8 of the books. I do not really enjoy sword and sorcery, but I do like having my expectations challenged, and it seems like they would be with this series.

QUOTE]

I am with you there Jozanny. I am going to see if I can pick the books up over the holidays. I love fantasy reading

[JBI]

I will confess, while observing the usual raging debate between the usual suspects, the series has perked my interest as curious bedtime reading, and I am thinking of buying all 7 or 8 of the books. I do not really enjoy sword and sorcery, but I do like having my expectations challenged, and it seems like they would be with this series.

JBI, I get what you are protesting, even with the skimming I have done, but, otoh, not too many centuries ago, war was a kind of terrorist brutality where rape was, unfortunately, one of the weapons used to force submission. The Mongol survived history for a reason.

It is not that, which is problematic, it is the portrayal - go ahead and by them, they aren't particularly well written to begin with, but you'll see what I'm saying sooner or later.

It's pseudo-realism at best. The historical portrayal is not accurate, and the brutality of rape in war time (seen not just centuries ago, but still a contemporary issue) is perhaps not the problem as is the nature of the text.

Martin is sex obsessed, especially with the defilement of adolescent girls by old brutish men.

As a writer, and a critic, I find the content morally reprehensible.

If I wrote the same thing, honoring a Japanese perspective on the rape of Nanking, I most certainly would be crucified by the press, had I had the same sales as Martin, and rightfully so.

My main problem is the excuse that is given to the text, because it is in a particular genre.

The depiction of sex in the book resembles more the bronze age than the medieval times. In truth, prostitution in the Medieval times was heavily controlled by the church, under the teachings of Augustine of Canterbury, rendering the accuracy of such a depiction rather inaccurate.

By what standard then can we judge a book? Are we to say anything is permissible in a fantasy novel, because of the detachment from reality? Where is the line drawn?

[Jozanny]

As I have not so much as read an excerpt, I will have to leave this to you, Drk, the OP, other fans, other detractors. I am too tired to fuss with Amazon to get a look see, but if his diction is truly poor, then no, not for me.

Update: Went to his web site, and it seems like the usual grandiose patter. Good thing I did not act, even though I want fresh reading--your critique, JBI, is probably on spot, and I'd suggest something about his picture, but I'd get into trouble. :)

[Awakening]

I read the first two books in the series but only made it halfway through the third. I did enjoy the different character threads and the unpredictable storyline. I would be surprised if I pick the series up again, however -- there is simply too much else to read.

[bluevictim]

If I taught a fantasy course at a college level, I think SOIAF (probably just the first book because of time constraints) would be an excellent choice for the Capstone of the course, especially if you're including some Heroic/Epic fantasy in the reading list. It's the perfect book to rethink all the other books that I would probably include. Since one of the main purposes of the book is as critique of epic fantasy, a critique of the simplistic morality of good and evil, a sharp look at the nature of power, and in many ways its themes are extremely modern. ...

Drkshadow03, thanks for this informative post. I've been curious about this series for a while, and now I'm even more interested. I'll probably read A Game of Thrones sometime in the next couple of months.

[Drkshadow03]

Drkshadow03, thanks for this informative post. I've been curious about this series for a while, and now I'm even more interested. I'll probably read A Game of Thrones sometime in the next couple of months.

Heh. All this discussion is making me want to re-read it again.

[bluevictim]

Heh. All this discussion is making me want to re-read it again.You should -- take a break from all that Greek stuff! :)

[JBI]

Meh, Read Guy Gavriel Kay instead. As fantasy goes, Kay is far more original than Martin could ever be, and, especially in his later works, approaches something which is unseen in Fantasy fiction - decent prose.

[Drkshadow03]

Heh. Ironically enough I just posted on Plato's Euthyphro on the blog, Bluevictim

If I decide to read any fantasy in the near future I should probably read the other New Crobuzon novels of China Mieville, Jeff Vandermeer's novels, and Scott Baker's Epic fantasy trilogy, which I've heard really good things about. Actually to jump off JBI's comment, I would even love to read some Guy Gavriel Kay who I have thus far not read, but have also heard nothing but good things.

[Mopey Droney]

JBI, I have not read the books, but I confess, I find your accusation that Martin is openly misogynist and pro-rape a little flimsy, and such serious charges should not be thrown around so lightly. What is your response to Drkshadow03's argument?

[JBI]

JBI, I have not read the books, but I confess, I find your accusation that Martin is openly misogynist and pro-rape a little flimsy, and such serious charges should not be thrown around so lightly. What is your response to Drkshadow03's argument?

Who said openly. He doesn't come out and say he is, but I find his texts are.


Heh. Ironically enough I just posted on Plato's Euthyphro on the blog, Bluevictim

If I decide to read any fantasy in the near future I should probably read the other New Crobuzon novels of China Mieville, Jeff Vandermeer's novels, and Scott Baker's Epic fantasy trilogy, which I've heard really good things about. Actually to jump off JBI's comment, I would even love to read some Guy Gavriel Kay who I have thus far not read, but have also heard nothing but good things.

Kay isn't perhaps a conventional fantasy author, in the sense that Bakker (is that who you meant?) (who I profess I find virtually unreadable) is.

He comes more from the new historicist movement, in the sense that he tries to break away from historical views by building on the notion of history as narrative, and blending that into his text. I think he does that very well, and his characters to me, from the books I read of his a while ago, seem far more thought out. I think his earlier work in the more traditional vein is lacking, but his works in the Moorish and Byzantine settings that he used, and to an extent the one set in 12th (ish) century France is very interesting.


Bakker, from what I am told from the people I know who have finished his work, his loaded with pseudo-philosophy, often times told to me as at the expense of content. What that means, I don't know, but I found the prose irritating, and within 30 or so pages I returned the first volume to the library.

As for Mieville I have heard some good things, and was planning to take out his young adult book Un Lun Dun, but never got around to it.

[Mopey Droney]

JBI,
This is the part of Drkshadow's post I would like to see you address.

Martin is denobilizing and desterilizing Epic fantasy. He is challenging many of the things that JBI I imagine dislikes about the Epic fantasy genre; Martin's world is not one divorced from reality or meant to provide comfort in predictability. It incorporates a hard-dose of reality into the Epic Fantasy with unglorified, very gruesome violence, and it relishes in its unpredictability.

It's worth noting that even given this gritty realism, Martin never directly depicts a rape that I can remember (I could be wrong about this); he usually talks about them indirectly after the fact. So a) the purpose obviously isn't to titillate because if it were you'd probably want to show it b) there really aren't much grounds to call those scenes a "rape" fantasy because of "A."

As far as Daenerys is concerned. It true that she is 14 and certainly "forced" into marriage to Khal Drogo by her brother, but I wouldn't exactly call that prostitution -- I want to be hesitant here given the various Feminist Theories that point out that often women don't really have much of a choice so it might as well be rape, and that seems to be the case here. However, it has more the quality of an arranged marriage. Daenerys in fact enjoys her life with Drogo as his Queen as is made explicitly clear in the subsequent chapters after her marriage to him.

Now it's true that they show the sex scene between what in our society is a minor and an older man. Most people I've talked to find this scene repulsive, including many male fantasy readers who JBI claims this scene was concocted for as an appeal to them, however, many of them note this scene as the one that really nauseated them.

Still, I think there are narrative reasons to include it:

1) Historical reality. It's based on a medieval setting. Women could marry at 14 in the Middle Ages (see pg. 98 at this link). Likewise, her older brother would've been her guardian and had the right to arrange her marriage.

2) Stylistic reasons. If you're going to include babies getting their heads violently bashed in and are willing to depict incest then you better have a good reason to shirk away from sexuality.

3) Characterization. As I already pointed out this a story about perspective. Everything is siphoned through the character's viewpoints. One viewpoint is Dany's. Dany is about to have sex for the first time, barely knows her husband, and is naturally frightened. It would hold that this constitutes a major event in her life; likewise, there is gender parity shown in the books. When Jon Snow first has sex this is also shown with as much graphicness (if I remember correctly). The Dany scene also serves as a transition from the scared girl who obeys her abusive brother to a Queen who has some agency of her own and is no longer afraid to mock her brother.

Lastly, there is no denying this an extremely misogynist world, but I think that's the point and there seems to be self-awareness of that fact rather than a blind relishing in the misogyny as an appeal to fanboys. In other words, Martin is in fact commenting on the misogyny of his world. The character of Brienne of Tarth (a minor character in the second book who continually grows in importance as she gains a viewpoint in the 3rd book) with her attempts to be a female knight in a man's world and her commentary on those difficulties I think proves this point beyond a shadow of a doubt. In fact, almost all the female characters at some point comment on it.

The rampant sexuality of the female characters isn't so much male fantasy as it is commentary on this world's patriarchal system; by telling the story from the perspectives of the most powerful women, including the Queen herself, we see that no matter what their rank women for the most part can only obtain power in this world through sexual favors. Martin is not putting this perspective forward uncritically, however. There are plenty of counter-examples of women who try to find other means to have agency and power. Arya, Dany, and Brienne are the most obvious of those examples.

In conclusion:

1) We have a lot of female main characters and an extremely diverse cast of women with very different personalities and who have fairly complex motivations (as equally complex as the male characters). Women are not stereotyped, but instead there is diversity.

2) The novel passes the Bechdel test, which so much fantasy and genre work miserably fails.

3) I think there is evidence in the narrative that it is self-aware of the misogyny and the female characters directly comment on the misogyny in the world and their lack of power.

4) There are quite a few female characters who find agency through means other than sexuality. To put it another way, there are main characters who provide counterexamples to the women who rely on sexuality for power.

On the other hand, it's true that there is a lot of violence against women in the series, and I although I think Martin is in fact commenting on it rather than promoting it, I can also understand why it would be a bit offputting for some people and why some feminists might read it differently than I do.

[JBI]

I saw that you wanted to address it, so I will put it simply. I find parts of the text reprehensible, Drkshadow thinks differently, we'll have to agree to disagree, or some other such. In truth, I don't have a text in front of me, so I cannot use quotes, so it becomes a game of mere speculation, and memory digging.

Like Drkshadow said, it is a perspective novel, a technique vaguely borrowed from, I would think, Faulkner, with a different narrator on each chapter, though with the absence of the interior monologue in favor of a highly focalised third person rendition.

The one, perhaps most disgusting scene I remember reading, before putting down the book, was one about some fellow named Greyjoy (the son of some rebel island guy) misoginystically taking advantage of a barely teenage peasant girl on some boat trip, before abandoning her, and ridiculing her.

The attitude without consequence that such a scene produces I find horrifying. Textually, the scene was not plot relevant, and only an indulgence into the setting, which is despicable. There was no need for the scene thematically. No need for the scene for plot development, or any other such reasons. And in truth, after that, the narrative tried to show the character as sympathetic, rather than condemning him, which I found utterly disgusting.

[Bluebeard]

First, you critique the series for a lack of realism. Then, you condemn it for portraying a sympathetic side to an otherwise villainous character. This is really the paradox of your criticisms, JBI: an expectation of fantasy and ultimatum of realism.

The fantasy world the GRRM depicts is not something wondrous and glorious. GRRM's intent, in creating such a world, is not to liberate his suppressed misogyny, but to indulge in--what boils down to--a cage match between a variety of characters. It's genre fiction, pulp stuff; all the writer and the reader are attempting to accomplish here is that indulgence. One could argue that this is not in the character development, but the sexual grotesquerie. This argument falls apart, though, when we are faced with a strong cast of dominant female characters who pummel men into submission, leaving the pervert-critic to conclude that GRRM is a sadomasochistic nutjob with violent sexual ambivalence. It sounds good, and I'm sure Freud would hop around in glee, but it just isn't supported by the text.

I enjoy it quite a bit, along with plenty of others, because it has good characters. It's not Literature: it's literature. Fun. One of the few fantasy series, in my opinion, that overrides its bad prose with genuine entertainment. But LeGuin, Kay, Peake and the others are better, more rewarding reads, definitely.

[JBI]

Bluebeard, you wouldn't happen to be some alias of another poster, would you?

The point is, it is a removed setting. If an author needs to create a setting where women get raped in order to indulge in his cage match then the world for that is a misogynist. Sorry, unless you happen to be George R. R. Martin, in which case it is against the rules for me to accuse you of anything.

As you said it, all the author and the reader are trying to do is indulgence. On those grounds, I see my point accentuated, that the reader and the author are indulging in a misogynist vision as a means of carrying out some sort of perverse fantasy.

[Bluebeard]

Bluebeard, you wouldn't happen to be some alias of another poster, would you?

Nope, just a lurker.


The point is, it is a removed setting. If an author needs to create a setting where women get raped in order to indulge in his cage match then the world for that is a misogynist. Sorry, unless you happen to be George R. R. Martin, in which case it is against the rules for me to accuse you of anything.

As you said it, all the author and the reader are trying to do is indulgence. On those grounds, I see my point accentuated, that the reader and the author are indulging in a misogynist vision as a means of carrying out some sort of perverse fantasy.

Sex is really not the political arena that cultural critics seem to think it is. It's an act where biological imperative takes over, not the intellectual makeup of a writer's mind. What you're arguing now is that Martin's sexual fantasy revolves around the degradation of and indifference towards women, and I'll say it probably is. The mistake would be in muddling that sexual fantasy with intellectual (metasexual, if that's even possible) fantasy, which isn't warranted. Now I think you'd argue that the mere expression of this sexual fantasy is unacceptable, but Martin exalts no one, indicts no one. He's somewhat similar to Camus, in that sense (though he couldn't dream of coming close): not so much a concern with the ethics or morality of a character's actions, but a persistent query into that character's nature, choices, metamorphoses.

Well, I like it, though I don't find misogynistic sex appealing. I just find it's place within the narrative, and you don't--but that's fine too. It's pulp. :thumbs_up

[Drkshadow03]

Considering we've been talking about rape and the sexual depiction in Martin's work and fantasy as a removed setting (which technically only applies to 2nd world fantasies, by the way), I found this to be an interesting post on the topic that intersects quite well between some of what JBI said and some of what I said: Treatment of Modern Themes in Epic Fantasy (http://ofblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/keeping-it-real-reader-values-textual.html).

I thought some people might be interested in reading it.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Holy crap, a lot has been posted since I last checked this thread. I don't have time now, but I will read it all and comment.

[Jozanny]

Considering we've been talking about rape and the sexual depiction in Martin's work and fantasy as a removed setting (which technically only applies to 2nd world fantasies, by the way), I found this to be an interesting post on the topic that intersects quite well between some of what JBI said and some of what I said: Treatment of Modern Themes in Epic Fantasy (http://ofblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/keeping-it-real-reader-values-textual.html).

I thought some people might be interested in reading it.

Well, I read it Drk, and I really don't read enough fantasy literature to nit pick over these pc caveats, but methinks it is a case of a rather tired genre taking itself way too seriously, and, his sexual fantasies aside, there is nothing in Martin's work to draw my interest:

Animal identification dream--been there, done that, and have read much better texts about human affinity to the totem.

Protagonist with pet as supporting character, ditto, too many times to repeat:rolleyes:

And to peruse tripe sentences like "Men will be men and women women, and these were the only women to be found in a thousand leagues..."

Cheap hyperbole. There is no reason why fantasy writers cannot put realism within the fantasy to use, and sweat, and really work at it, like real writers do, and put out a quality product. You're an intelligent critic, Drk, and I respect many of your counter-points, but so much of fantasy is just too over the top to be anything but trivial. The Legend of The Seeker, Disney's first effort at syndication, is visually interesting, with a script so conventionally overwrought it is not even amusingly bad, and the choreography is terrible, cheaply repetitive. The last few episodes have slightly better story lines, but geez, I wonder why I can't join the screen writers guild, as we, the writers ourselves, seem virtually unnecessary in terms of what we bring to our craft.

[JBI]

Well, I read it Drk, and I really don't read enough fantasy literature to nit pick over these pc caveats, but methinks it is a case of a rather tired genre taking itself way too seriously, and, his sexual fantasies aside, there is nothing in Martin's work to draw my interest:

Animal identification dream--been there, done that, and have read much better texts about human affinity to the totem.

Protagonist with pet as supporting character, ditto, too many times to repeat:rolleyes:

And to peruse tripe sentences like "Men will be men and women women, and these were the only women to be found in a thousand leagues..."

Cheap hyperbole. There is no reason why fantasy writers cannot put realism within the fantasy to use, and sweat, and really work at it, like real writers do, and put out a quality product. You're an intelligent critic, Drk, and I respect many of your counter-points, but so much of fantasy is just too over the top to be anything but trivial. The Legend of The Seeker, Disney's first effort at syndication, is visually interesting, with a script so conventionally overwrought it is not even amusingly bad, and the choreography is terrible, cheaply repetitive. The last few episodes have slightly better story lines, but geez, I wonder why I can't join the screen writers guild, as we, the writers ourselves, seem virtually unnecessary in terms of what we bring to our craft.
I wonder, is the television series worse than the primary text? From what I remember, Goodkind is perhaps a worse of a rapist than Martin, in fact definitely, where, I think he has down right sado-masochistic tendencies, and an obsession with raping women.

Say whatever you will about Martin, on Goodkind I know I'm right.

[mortalterror]

Here's to politically correct language and the sanitization of our thought. It takes real courage, especially in these times, to stand up for what's right. Slavery, racism, homophobia, misogyny, and rape are all wrong and if nobody wrote about them, like, how would anybody know? It's not pandering at all to speak up and say that if you'd been alive seventy years ago when the Holocaust was happening, by golly, you'd a been again' it. And if you didn't say that, I guess everybody would just assume you were for all of those things. I know I would.

[JBI]

It is not about writing about them, it is about how you write about them. If a text is creating an opportunity for escapism into a world where women are marginalized to the extreme, what impact does that have on readers? Are they going to think higher of women? Be unchanged? or think less of women?

I don't mind the idea of historical realism, but the text is detached from reality to the point that it seems to deliberately portray sex in this regard for the pure relish of it, which I find disgusting, to say the least.

Why can't, for instance, fantasy literature offer a positive construction rather than a negative one? Is the anxiety of influence on fantasy literature that intense that one needs to rape women to seem original?

I understand about talking about these things - many, for instance, rape victims and holocaust survivors have written about personal experiences, but that is different. The tone is different, the style is different, and overall the text means in a completely different way.

The fact that fantasy fiction gets away with these things is rather puzzling as well. You have a stereotypical genre, which stereotypes and degrades women to the extreme, and its excuse for going unscathed by criticism is a) it's mediocre pulp fiction, so who will bother, and b) it's not set in our world, therefore it is acceptable.

Those points are both silly. Since the 80s, and to a lesser extent since Tolkien, fantasy literature has been one of the most dominant popular-fiction forms, in terms of sales figures, and fanbase. To ignore the social implications of such texts now would be, I would think, impossible, given their range of appeal.

[Drkshadow03]

I wonder, is the television series worse than the primary text? From what I remember, Goodkind is perhaps a worse of a rapist than Martin, in fact definitely, where, I think he has down right sado-masochistic tendencies, and an obsession with raping women.

Say whatever you will about Martin, on Goodkind I know I'm right.

Ditto. Something we can agree on for a change. I hated the one book I read of The Sword of Truth Series!

[Jozanny]

Right mortal--fantasy teaches modern readers how lucky they are, and the overeducated have no right to show it up as crass, which it is, barring LOR, because there, the enticement of evil is taken seriously, and the novels do have ideas about justice, righteousness, and the cost of selling out to the demonic--but we can't say Martin is tasteless, since that would be an offense to the moral code of his readers.

[Bluebeard]

JBI, actually, hit the nail right on the head when he mentioned the anxiety of influence. The entire modern practice of fantasy writing seems to be distancing itself from the color of Zelazny and Eddison's tradition and creating bleak environments to challenge its characters with. The marginalization and violence therein really is just part of that atmosphere.

[Drkshadow03]

I was searching the internet and found this excellent review of the entire Song of Ice and Fire Series that has been published so far: Link (http://dannyreviews.com/h/Song_Ice_Fire.html).

I also liked this review because this guy seems to notice exactly what I do in the series. He gets at the core theme dominating the story, which is essentially power and its abuse. Not to mention he offers a nice checklist at the end that I thought was creative for a review: Link. (http://fatjacksrants.blogspot.com/2006/05/literature-review-song-of-ice-and-fire.html)

I also find it a tad ironic that for all the comments about what genre fans do and don't like, they have the same exact debates we've all been having (is the sex in the series too gratuitous? Is the medieval society accurate enough?): link. (http://speculativehorizons.blogspot.com/2008/11/why-is-song-of-ice-and-fire-so-popular.html)

I don't mean to beat a dead horse (pardon the cliche), but the librarian in me wanted to offer some more resources so those considering the series have a lot of different viewpoints.

[JBI]

I think it key to note, that all the reviews you posted were written by men, most of whom have a natural bias, being that they are all fans, and therefore aren't writing their perspective of the specific from a very objective perspective. Those reviews aren't scholarly in the least, and Martin's world isn't as accurate as they pretend, given the nature of the source material he used, according to his website:



THE MEDIEVAL SOLDIER Gerry Embleton & John Howe
A DISTANT MIRROR Barbara Tuchman
MEDIEVAL SWORDMANSHIP John Clements
THE MEDIEVAL WARFARE SOURCE BOOK David Nicolle
LIFE IN A MEDIEVAL CASTLE and LIFE IN A MEDIEVAL CITY, both by Joseph and Frances Gies
THE DICTIONARY OF HERALDRY by Joseph Foster
TOURNAMENTS by Richard Barber & Juliet Barker
GREAT CITIES OF THE ANCIENT WORLD by L. Sprague de Camp
THE CHRONICLES OF ENGLAND, FRANCE, SPAIN, AND OTHER PLACES ADJOINING, by Sir Jean Froissart


Hardly the most scholarly books, of course, most of which based on old documents, or old ways of approaching history.

[Drkshadow03]

I don't think I presented them as being scholarly, only reviews. Neither reviewer as far as I can tell is a fan of the fantasy genre (or solely a fan of the genre anyway), but rather they are fan of this particular work as evidenced by the reviews themselves. Both offer a sober picture of the work talking about its various qualities fairly indepth, while recognizing some of these elements will turn certain readers off and trying to address those concerns. They are actually two examples of fairly successful reviews, although certainly not scholarly. I also chose them because I think they are pretty much spot-on in their descriptions. I don't really see them as being much different than someone posting here on the forum. If I was in a format that required scholarly sources (say I myself were writing a scholarly paper) that would be a different matter.

Not to mention that part of your argument borders on being a Genetic Fallacy. It can certainly be relevant to point out bias in certain cases, but it has to go beyond just, "reviewer has male genitals," and "they are a fan."

Add on top of all this that in my very substantial post in this very thread I DID in fact link to female feminists who liked the series and some of their thoughts, which pretty much match the male reviewers, and I'm not really sure what your point is anymore.

As far as the books Martin read I would have to check most of them myself to determine how scholarly or not they are, but I am pretty sure the Gies book is a Gold Standard for medieval history. I suspect their biggest problem is being old and perhaps a tad outdated.

However, the accuracy of his medievial society is a moot point anyway whether someone is arguing it with you or fantasy fans with each other. It needs to have ENOUGH accuracy, but at the end of the day it is a FANTASY world.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

God, JBI, why are you trying so hard to guilt trip every reader who enjoys this series. You think its misogynistic, you think it is rapist fantasy, WE GET IT. Plus, you just keep rehashing the same points, like because it is fantasy it shouldn't bean excuse, blah blah blah. Getting old.

And I don't really get why the prose is bad. Pretty good if you ask me, but I guess I don't measure everything against Faulkner.

[JBI]

God, Matuatis-Mutandi, why are you trying so hard to doge a reader who dislikes this series. You think its quality literature, you think it is a work of imaginitive genius, WE Get IT. Plus, you just keep rehashing the same points, like because it is fantasy, it should be excused, blah blah blah. Getting old.

And I really don't see why it's good prose. Pretty crummy if you ask me, but I guess it's fantasy so there isn't a need to measure it against Faulkner.

I've read some of the titles, and none offer anything more than trivial rubbish, like different occupations of people at the time. None offer real historical study, of any sort, and all of them are dated, being that they don't take into account recent movements in historical scholarship (I am referring to the ones I have read from the list).

It's pretty basic, I just wanted to point out that there is no real scholarship, in the sense that Eco's Name of the Rose, or Baudolino.


As for your link in your thread Drkshadow, one is dead, another points nowhere, and I read the third, but it doesn't talk about the book specifically, so it only creates a rather vague, unscholarly overview of one perspective of a whole genre. Especially when one describes herself as a post-feminist, meanwhile, contradicting herself over and over again, as well as breaking completely with the objectives, and essentially the definition of post-feminist (as vague a term as it is).

[mortalterror]

I've read some of the titles, and none offer anything more than trivial rubbish, like different occupations of people at the time. None offer real historical study, of any sort, and all of them are dated, being that they don't take into account recent movements in historical scholarship (I am referring to the ones I have read from the list).

I may be wrong, and I'm not a history buff, but isn't Froissart's Chronicles one of the primary documents of medieval European history? I was under the impression that it ranked right up there with the Venerable Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People and Holinshed's Chronicles.

[JBI]

Perhaps, but Greis certainly isn't. Either way that is a historical record of events more of the battles in the Hundred Years War than an historical record of society. The Battles, knowing they are lifted from history doesn't really change anything. The views of medieval towns and society are based on mediocre research.

Either way, a primary from those times perhaps will give an idea of one account, but it is not grounds for labeling something historically accurate.

[Bluebeard]

It's a fantasy series. The only way Martin could be inaccurate is if he were stricken with amnesia; it's his creation. There are no current trends in scholarship on the history of Martin's world.

[Jozanny]

Drk, the fact that you recognize thematic intent in Martin's work does not mean that he is a good writer, sorry. He has pacing down, which is commendable, but I can do that too. This segment is from one of my stories which an editor from the now defunct Bone & Flesh praised for being "a realistic depiction of violence against women". And it is a fantastical piece, though in an urban setting:

"His erection came upon him before Frecca knew a man was there, before the shape and form of an intruder brooked alarm to her mind, before she knew it as a man was there, before she knew he was a man or even the pronoun of maleness (before she knew a man was there), even before she knew something was wrong as she stepped from the kitchenette to the living room, simultaneously speaking to her feline as a mother would speak to an adored adolescent child about the *****iness of the day, before she knew anything else, before he lunged at her--as erections, semen full and charged, somehow seem to signal themselves, she knew of it, her flesh knew of it, and the flesh turned, hackles raised, wanting to tear that aroused sensation out of the air, when he did lunge at her, threw himself at her with the force of a semi-automatic, the bulk of his body impacting against the muscular flesh of her intestines as she screamed, her eyes flashing the horror in phosphorescent red and green and yellows, don’t faint! the horror no this is not happening to me, no! But was there time for denial? The apartment had been empty when the key had unclicked the lock, this she would have sworn to, had she known she still had the ability to swear. She felt the danger a live wire seething just before it hits your skin with its tinge and sizzle, and then this man was on her, threw himself at her, his denim jeans scratching against her stockings, like burlap, the sound. She struggled hard even with the shock of it rolling on her in waves, fortunate in that her body was naturally athletic, taking its routines of jogging and workouts with ease, being an active member of the Washington Square Theatrical Performers Gym though you would never see her near the stage: An arrangement had been worked out in exchange for her occasional paid weekend instruction, that she could have permanent membership at a discount--and so she fought back, as equally, as what she had been given to fight against. Where did he come from? Where was the answer?"

The only reason I did not get paid was the magazine went under, but I will take my work ethic over Martin's any day. I don't care what the genre is, fantasy authors have no excuse for poor diction. No one is saying Martin has to be Faulkner, but he also doesn't have to be as lazy as his excerpts display him to be.

JBI: to answer your earlier question, Disney does not display graphic violence in its adaptation of Seeker-- it still sucks. :)

[JBI]

I wasn't talking about graphic violence, but graphic sex - that is the central content of the book - men getting killed, and women get raped, or in some cases, men getting sado-masochistically slaved. (I only read the first one, but according to a reader I know, he only gets worse, not better).


It's a fantasy series. The only way Martin could be inaccurate is if he were stricken with amnesia; it's his creation. There are no current trends in scholarship on the history of Martin's world.

No, I am trying to contradict the perceived notion of Martin as a realist, and giving a realist portrayal of the middle ages, to an extent.

[Jozanny]

I wasn't talking about graphic violence, but graphic sex - that is the central content of the book - men getting killed, and women get raped, or in some cases, men getting sado-masochistically slaved. (I only read the first one, but according to a reader I know, he only gets worse, not better).

Not that I can tell. It is closer to a really watered down TH White's The Once and Future King. Wizard places orphan with decent family. Orphan grows up. Good witch rushes to find him to give him special book. Wizard then conveniently informs orphan he is messiah to the Midlands, where a dark lord is trying to become all powerful. Wizard, Witch, and Seeker then kill entire brigades and run around trying to coax dark lord out of his lair, and have various misadventures in the process.

I wouldn't watch it, but the scenic view is nice, and Bruce Spence doesn't really take his Merlin role seriously, but he is a riot, and I don't have cable, so I can go postal, or take a smile where I can find it; the story has picked up a little, but they really can't film decent battle scenes.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

"you think it is a work of imaginitive genius"

I never said That. It is a good read.

The whole series doesn't focus on sex. That just seems to be the only parts you payed any attention to.

[Drkshadow03]

JBI, I just looked up where you got your information on Martin's site. You got your information from the FAQ on his website. He lists the titles as books he would recommend to the average reader wanting to buff up on medieval history.

Then follows up with the following lines which you conveniently failed to include:

Those are just the tip of the iceberg. There are also specialized books that focus on things like Fools and Jesters, Medieval Feasts, the Knights Templar, and the history of the Hundred Years War or the Wars of the Roses.

A writer cannot do too much research... though sometimes it is a mistake to try and cram too much of what you learned into your novel. Research gives you a foundation to build on, but in the end it's only the story that matters. (emphasis mine).

In other words, you took that entire section out of context.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

This will be my final post here:

I highly reccomend ASOIAF to any fantasy fan who can handle violence and sex. Anyone who wants to stray away from the normal fantasy formula, this is for you. I will not claim it is completely original, just different than the norm. There are no clear "good guys" (except maybe Jon) or "Bad Guys" (except maybe Joff). The use of magic is very minimal, which I like. Too many authors like to use magic as a scapegoat for any tricky place they find their narrative to be in. It is well written, keeps you interested.

[Cellar Door]

I absolutely love ASOIAF... can't wait for the next one... I enjoy complicated plots and circling, etc. This truly is epic fantasy at its best, as far as I'm concerned.

[Sepulchrave]

Excellent series. The anti-Tolkien in various respects, which suits me just fine, as I could never enjoy The Lord of the Rings.

I also take issue with this:


something which is unseen in Fantasy fiction - decent prose.

Have you read Perdido Street Station? Titus Groan or Gormenghast? The Liveship Traders, or maybe American Gods? I think the main problem is that I don't actually know what you personally regard as 'decent prose' -- I think slamming an entire genre (aside from Kay) is far too hasty, though.

[Tecumseh]

This is my favorite fantasy series as well, and I can't wait to see what the next books hold.

[PabloQ]

I have a theory that this series will never see its end. I read the first 3 volumes in this series and was looking forward to the fourth. And then we learned that volume 4 was too big and the editors wanted Martin to split it into two pieces, which took over a year to produce volume 4. Over a year later, volume 5 has yet to be published. If volume 4 was finished at one point, what takes so long to seperate it into two volumes?
I suspect that Martin has lost interest in his own story. I also suspect that Martin lacks the work ethic to stay focused enough to complete the story. The story was supposed to be six volumes, now its seven or possibly eight and the next in the series are not forthcoming. I suspect that Martin will never finish it. He'll either give up or croak before it's finished.
When I get back to reading mindless popular fiction, I may reread this series, but with a different light. Is Martin really revolutionizing the fantasy genre or is he just injecting gratuitous atrocities to sell books? I suspect that JBI is correct on this and that it's the latter.

[Sepulchrave]

I suspect that Martin has lost interest in his own story. I also suspect that Martin lacks the work ethic to stay focused enough to complete the story.

I can sympathise with those suspicions -- the wait between books has become utterly ridiculous, to be honest. Poor form from Martin.


Is Martin really revolutionizing the fantasy genre or is he just injecting gratuitous atrocities to sell books? I suspect that JBI is correct on this and that it's the latter.

This is an interesting question. I would argue that he has changed the genre to a degree -- most current big authors in the field acknowledge the influence he has had over their work (Lynch and Abercrombie, for example. Hobb has stated that she was 'stunned' by his work. Stover isn't as big, but he's also gone into his admiration for Martin in an interview). From another perspective, however, it's not so much him as it is the changing tone of society as a whole, with the shift toward darker/grittier material. In popular culture, the best examples would be the 'reboots' of classic franchises, in the form of Casino Royale and Batman Begins.

But, getting back to the point, I think that implying Martin is only selling books on the basis of 'gratuitous atrocities' doesn't fly. Maybe more people are embracing this 'dark' factor than ever before, but a good story needs more than that. It needs characters that the reader can connect to (on some level or another) for one. I think Martin is excellent in the realm of characterisation -- it's not just due to the format of one perspective per chapter, but due to the psychological verisimilitude of his portraits. Many people talk of being 'sucked in' to his work, and this is due to (in my opinion, of course) his skill with fleshing out characters on the page. Not an easy thing to do.

[bluevictim]

If I taught a fantasy course at a college level, I think SOIAF (probably just the first book because of time constraints) would be an excellent choice for the Capstone of the course, especially if you're including some Heroic/Epic fantasy in the reading list. It's the perfect book to rethink all the other books that I would probably include. ...
Drkshadow03, thanks for this informative post. I've been curious about this series for a while, and now I'm even more interested. I'll probably read A Game of Thrones sometime in the next couple of months.
So I did finally get around to reading the first three books of this series. I found them quite enjoyable, and I look forward to reading the rest of the series. I think Martin handles his multiple point-of-view approach pretty well; I thought it was a nice touch that the prose in each character's sections reflected that character -- Arya's sections sounded bratty, Tyrion's sections were jaded, and Daenery's sections were visionary. Unfortunately, I feel like he doesn't really have the plot under control, and it doesn't seem like he has the ability to write a good ending. I agree with you (Drkshadow03) that the nature of power is one of the central themes of all three books, along with the conflict between idealism and pragmatism (or between naivete and unscrupulousness?). I liked that he explored these themes in a fairly grown up way -- ideals contradict each other, power is unstable, cunning moves come back to cause catastrophes.

It's blatantly obvious that he is aware of and comments on the rampant misogyny in the story (he does this quite explicitly, really). I don't find the accusation that Martin himself is being misogynistic very convincing; he deals the women a bad hand, but he also gives many of the women in the story the strength (mental and physical) and self agency to play their hands well. At the risk of exposing to the world that I am a twisted pervert, I didn't really find the depictions of sex overly graphic or gratuitously titillating.

By the way, I am curious what the rest of the reading list for your hypothetical fantasy course would contain?







Drk, the fact that you recognize thematic intent in Martin's work does not mean that he is a good writer, sorry. He has pacing down, which is commendable, but I can do that too. This segment is from one of my stories which an editor from the now defunct Bone & Flesh praised for being "a realistic depiction of violence against women". And it is a fantastical piece, though in an urban setting:

"His erection came upon him before Frecca knew a man was there, before the shape and form of an intruder brooked alarm to her mind, before she knew it as a man was there, before she knew he was a man or even the pronoun of maleness (before she knew a man was there), even before she knew something was wrong as she stepped from the kitchenette to the living room, simultaneously speaking to her feline as a mother would speak to an adored adolescent child about the *****iness of the day, before she knew anything else, before he lunged at her--as erections, semen full and charged, somehow seem to signal themselves, she knew of it, her flesh knew of it, and the flesh turned, hackles raised, wanting to tear that aroused sensation out of the air, when he did lunge at her, threw himself at her with the force of a semi-automatic, the bulk of his body impacting against the muscular flesh of her intestines as she screamed, her eyes flashing the horror in phosphorescent red and green and yellows, don’t faint! the horror no this is not happening to me, no! But was there time for denial? The apartment had been empty when the key had unclicked the lock, this she would have sworn to, had she known she still had the ability to swear. She felt the danger a live wire seething just before it hits your skin with its tinge and sizzle, and then this man was on her, threw himself at her, his denim jeans scratching against her stockings, like burlap, the sound. She struggled hard even with the shock of it rolling on her in waves, fortunate in that her body was naturally athletic, taking its routines of jogging and workouts with ease, being an active member of the Washington Square Theatrical Performers Gym though you would never see her near the stage: An arrangement had been worked out in exchange for her occasional paid weekend instruction, that she could have permanent membership at a discount--and so she fought back, as equally, as what she had been given to fight against. Where did he come from? Where was the answer?"

The only reason I did not get paid was the magazine went under, but I will take my work ethic over Martin's any day. I don't care what the genre is, fantasy authors have no excuse for poor diction. No one is saying Martin has to be Faulkner, but he also doesn't have to be as lazy as his excerpts display him to be.I know it was a long time ago that you posted this, but I wonder if you'd care to be more specific about what you feel makes the excerpt from your story better writing than Martin's? You hinted that you think Martin's diction betrays a lack of effort. I thought his prose was quite useful and appropriate for his novels. Whether or not he spent a lot of effort on it doesn't seem to be particularly relevant.

[Drkshadow03]

Unfortunately, I feel like he doesn't really have the plot under control, and it doesn't seem like he has the ability to write a good ending.

Yeah, I think this becomes more obvious in the 4th book where the plot really feels like it's meandering. He claims he can finish it in 7 books, but so far finishing book 5 has taken him forever, which is making me wonder if he really has lost control of his story.

Still, I'm looking forward to the HBO series.



It's blatantly obvious that he is aware of and comments on the rampant misogyny in the story (he does this quite explicitly, really). I don't find the accusation that Martin himself is being misogynistic very convincing; he deals the women a bad hand, but he also gives many of the women in the story the strength (mental and physical) and self agency to play their hands well. At the risk of exposing to the world that I am a twisted pervert, I didn't really find the depictions of sex overly graphic or gratuitously titillating.

By the way, I am curious what the rest of the reading list for your hypothetical fantasy course would contain?



The Odyssey by Homer

The Tempest by Shakespeare

Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien

The Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin

Smoke and Mirrors by Neil Gaiman

Perdido Street Station by China Mieville

A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin

Course reader:

Epic Pooh essay by Michael Moorcock
"The Library of Babel" by Jorge Luis Borges
"The Call of Cthulhu" by H. P. Lovecraft
"Little Gods" by Tim Pratt
"The Fantasy Writer's Assistant" by Jeffrey Ford
"Paladin of the Lost Hour" by Harlan Ellison
"Travels with the Snow Queen" by Kelly Link
A few other essays/lit crit on fantasy perhaps.

Maybe, or maybe not. There are a lot of directions I could go with a fantasy class. I am not happy that there are no people of color represented in the list, unless you count Borges. I am not thrilled that there are only two women (one novel, one short story). The book selection has a dual personality since one goal when constructing it was to get students to think more broadly about what constitutes fantasy, while focusing heavily on epic, but also including works of Urban fantasy or weird non-traditional fantasy.

[bluevictim]

Yeah, I think this becomes more obvious in the 4th book where the plot really feels like it's meandering. He claims he can finish it in 7 books, but so far finishing book 5 has taken him forever, which is making me wonder if he really has lost control of his story.Yeah, I just read the first three books because there was a long gap between it and the fourth book so I hoped he would have brought the story to some kind of stopping point. I'll probably wait at least until he finishes book 5 before taking the series up again.

The book selection has a dual personality since one goal when constructing it was to get students to think more broadly about what constitutes fantasy, while focusing heavily on epic, but also including works of Urban fantasy or weird non-traditional fantasy.Your inclusion of the Odyssey reminds me of a discussion I had a while ago with Petrarch's Love about fantasy being the inheritors of the epic tradition. I disagreed with her because I felt the fundamental nature of fantasy fiction and the role it plays in society were too different from epic. On those points I still pretty much feel the same, but having read more epic fantasy now I see that fantasy writers have adopted many conventions from epic.

[Tyrionforprez]

I have read the first four and i have to say i became nearly obsessed with them ever sense. I have never really been into High Fantasy like Tolkien or the god awful Wizard's first rule series, but A Song of Ice and Fire really sucked me in. I like the Large cast of distinct characters, the pacing and flow of the stories and some of the events which made me nearly jump up and cheering wildly at work. I love how much realism there is because, well, fantasy can sometimes get too caught up in the fantastic and i have a hard time believing what I'm reading. I dont see that with Martin. There may be Dragons, but there's also back-stabbings, infidelity and mothers who just miss there sons.

[Modest Proposal]

Meh, Read Guy Gavriel Kay instead. As fantasy goes, Kay is far more original than Martin could ever be, and, especially in his later works, approaches something which is unseen in Fantasy fiction - decent prose.

I am a late comer to the conversation, but have input both on JBI's condemnation of Martin and on the issue of Fantasy prose.

I have read GRRM's series as far as he has finished writing them and have enjoyed them to a point. His structuring of medieval politics and war are interesting as well as, often, historically accurate. His writting is servicable for the story and even occasionally sustains about as much aesthetic liscense as the mass of fantasy audiences will allow. Mostly, I'm impressed with his endlessly inventive characters--though not as psychologically deep as say Fyodor D.'s--who constantly bring new variations on the many perspectives of the events occuring. He rarely falters from pointing out the evil done by the "good" side, or the incedental justice imposed by the "bad" side. Succinctly, his characters are human, driven by human drives and act intellegently toward their desires, not as plot devices.

I do find myself however enjoying the story despite the treatment of sex. I read Lolita, not unflinchingly, because I read most of it during a week of watching my daughter while my wide was in class. It is difficult and heady, however, I never felt the author excused or condoned the actions--rather, there was a very circuitous absurd, horror at the events. G. Martin however, is not telling the story of a pedophile but the epic of a country. Is the percentage devoted to taboo sexuality really representitive of the percentage it neccessitates in the plot? No, I believe it is not. Like battle scenes, dramatic arguements, escapes, captures the sex is used as entertainment, another event loaded with excitement. But when something as awful as pre-pubescent rape is used in such a wanton manner I find it often obscene and always unnecissary. This is not to condemn all manner of illicit sexual writings, just ones that use such loaded concepts for such cheap aims. It is also, weak and beneath an artist.

As to whether Kay's best works have accomplished the "unseen" in fantasy, in the form of decent prose I must strenuously object. Even the modern dismissal of Lewis and Tolkein--in large part due to their politics and popularity--I would think any student of prose must be impressed with LeGuin, Chesterton, Crowley and even Gene Wolff. All of them--though LeGuin seems of the group the most concerned with substance over style--maintain a level of quality comparable with the highest standards of quality.

I have refrained from bogging down my thoughts with the essential "in my opinion" and hope that the fact that I am writing this makes clear that all of the above is just that.

[JBI]

Historically accurate? Please, show me where - I feign to see the "historical accuracy" in anything there - if we are to take the setting as The War of the Roses, than the warfare is anachronistic - Longbow was the way to go, not heavy cavalry - the Knight errand of the medieval imagination was all but replaced as the main bulk of the army by then - or better yet, the sexual morals which, having done some research into the subject, can be dismissed as anachronistic, and almost entirely a product of Martin's imagination too.

As for my statement about something "unseen" - that was largely hyperbole - I have praised the work of other fantasy authors at various points - I guess I just got carried away in the argument.


On another note, I think this whole concept of "round" fantasy, that is, fantasy without good or bad as something problematic - ultimately there is a good and bad, it is just hidden in its engagement with the audience. The removal of the world implies some necessity, or at least desire from removal - if the world is reflecting this urge of relocation, ultimately it must project an imprint that is a) readable, to an extent, meaning it tells a story people would choose to read, and b) marketable, meaning it tells a story that has the potential of an audience that can make decent money (otherwise we wouldn't all know about it).

In that sense, the removal of Martin's world acts as a means of carrying out a fantasy - one which seeks out the facets of this world, for whatever reasons - be they aesthetic or political. The moralizing then is, if we say that there is no definite good and bad, transferred to the reader, who, by cheering when the prepubescent girls are raped, or shouting when one character is killed, or another not killed ends up being part of that moralizing feature - the fact that there is a desire to read the book implies there is some subjectivity in the reading - it is impossible to escape good and bad, as, ultimately, the reader will decide if it is not obviously spelled out for them - neutrality isn't exactly possible given the nature of the diegetic removal.

In that sense, I don't think it is too big a stretch to suggest that the book invites a sort of rape fantasy - if it itself is not moralizing, the desire to rape - the urge to portray a sort of landscape filled with rape and murder, and forced prostitution - is made all the more disturbing. This isn't Atwood where the moral, or stance of the text is defined - As you put it, everything in Martin is supposedly "Grey", how then can we view an anachronistic portrayal of sexual violence? Can we take it as being part of a "desire" by Martin to have little girls raped in his books? Or a desire of the reader to read about little girls getting raped - either way, the diegesis reflects a fantastical vision of a rather disturbing rape fantasy - it perhaps "aestheticizes" violence against women as a form of entertainment - I think morally such a thing needs to be commented on - why is it that there is so much rape and violence against women in the text? Why is it that the characters are grey? why is it that the book is constructed to portray these things, and how does that fit into marketing?

If we look at other rape sequences in fantasy literature, perhaps we can come up with some other, although still strange, conclusions.


Goodkind is probably the king of rape fantasy fiction - I didn't read too far in his series, but I don't think there was one major female character who is not brutally raped somehow throughout the text - even some of the male characters get thrown to these weird dominatrix-rapist types - the landscaping of his world seems intent on creating an obscure dystopia for some strange political reasons - the actual rape is more commonplace than almost any other event besides dialogue - here we have a world constructed out of violence, and rape, with a sort of hazy political, anti-communist message tied in. What do we make of that then? What is the significance of the landscape in telling a story?


Another strange example is Thomas Covenant (we'll take the first one, since I doubt anybody besides a true devotee to fantasy could go further) by Stephen R. Donaldson. What is the meaning of the rape at the beginning of the text? What does it signify - well, ultimately it is perpetuating a political impression based on the workings of our world. The fact that the book opens in our world suggests an intended meaning to the removal from the realistic plain into the fantasy - the rape then acts, I would argue, as the rape of the fantasy world itself - the world is open, and almost unreal in its existence, and the anti-heroic hero comes in, and does what he wants to it - he is unable to moralize, and is intended to show the weakness of our species, in that, perhaps, some of us aren't able to come to the right decision - still, I know many people who found the scene to be disturbing, and offputting (though, the terrible prose could have facilitated that). How then do we read the text? Well, that is another matter.

[Modest Proposal]

JBI, let me begin by saying I agree with you on most of your points, specifically those associated with the troublesome preoccupation with rape and other sexual abuses. Also, I find myself largely alone among my peers in agreeing with your view of morality in fantasy. My main qualm is a feeling that things are brought in for marketing purposes, or as a clumsy plot device. As I said, this type of usage is obscene and immoral.

I completely understand your hyperbole regarding the prose, no harm done.

As far as historical accuracy, I meant not so much perfect coordination between his world and ours, but a sense that things were organic within the cast rather than driven by the authors plan. Many times surprising, main characters are killed in a very unglorified, even "offstage" manner. Rather than following the formula of good losing every battle until the end--in which they are hopelessly outnumbered--and then winning soundly, I NEVER knew going in who would win. In the middle of a book would be a battle where we'd find out the anagonists were absolutely trounced. This as opposed to someone like Robin Hobb, who seems to give the protagonist no success until the last chapter. It always seemed like Martin flipped a coin to see who won battles and just wrote on the back of fate.

[Babyguile]

"you think it is a work of imaginitive genius"

I never said That. It is a good read.

The whole series doesn't focus on sex. That just seems to be the only parts you payed any attention to.

I've read the first two books. I hated the head-hopping which each chapter (combined with short chapters) and the treatment of women. Whenever I got into one person's story he would change the perspective so that I had to spend three or four pages reading against my will untill I became interested in this persons story, and then he would change it again.

Martin was portraying a misogynistic world for the sake of it. Because he could, because it sells, because it's fantasy and escapism and he could fall on that sword. He wasn't saying anything important about the treatment of women, he was just describing it.

I think it's poor. But remember that this man can write what he wants.

[Drkshadow03]

Did JBI just seriously argue that Martin's work is primarily a rape fantasy, despite the fact that if you brought together all the sexual content and rape scenes at best it would only make up perhaps four chapters of material from a four book series with 500+ pages in each book? And I don't remember the story ever directly depicting a non-consensual rape. There were scenes where the power differences made the sexual engagement questionable, but I don't remember any scene where they depict a completed rape in detail, challenging the titillation hypothesis, and pretty much confirming that most the sexual content is there to complete the "realist" aesthetics of violence as a critique of the fantasy genre's often sanitized violence, and to add another commentary on power dynamics, which is one of the main themes of the story (reason for its inclusion).

The multiple female POV characters (Arya, Sansa, Cersei, and Brienne) that directly comment on the misogyny of their world and restrictions on them as women, completely invalidates JBI's comments that one cannot discern Martin's POV on those issues like one could in Atwood's work. If he wasn't trying to comment on the misogyny of his world there would be no need for these characters whose decisions and desires directly pit them against that misogyny and who directly comment on it during their POVs.

JBI's analysis also confuses what is meant by "grey" characters. They are grey characters because their are many angles to what makes them tick, they have reasons for their behavior, but most importantly of all they are not by essence evil or good (this last point is the crux of the matter). That doesn't mean some of their deeds aren't immoral. To de-sexualize the content, trying to murder an eight-year-old by pushing him off the window sill is clearly immoral. Funny, no one is declaring that people get off on Bran falling and crippling himself, and it's really a child abuse fantasy or a disability fantasy. Having grey characters doesn't mean there are no moral issues; it just means they're more complex, and right and wrong isn't as easy to separate from each other, not that there is no right or wrong at all, hence the misreading.

So I will agree with one point that JBI makes, that the story invites a rape fantasy for certain readers. Usually very unsophisticated readers.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I was looking through old posts of mine and stumbled on to this, one of my first real debates on LitNet (one I executed quite poorly, I see now). Since this took place, I've grown a lot as a reader and appreciator of literature. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire still ranks as my favorite books.

Reading over this thread, the accusation that I most disagree with now is that Martin's prose and diction are poor (the pro-rape argument just seems silly, now). Just false.

Anyways, just bumping this to see if anyone has anything to say on the series. I'm really looking forward to the HBO adaptation; it looks really good. I just hope Martin actually finishes his series before he keels over.

[mortalterror]

Why would he finish it now? His check's already cleared.

[Drkshadow03]

Why would he finish it now? His check's already cleared.

Yet, he continues to work on a ton of other projects (http://georgerrmartin.com/news.html). I think the guy just has the worst case of writer's block imaginable. I mean seriously it's been five freaking years since the last one and he supposedly had half the book already done five years ago (in his decision to split A Feast of Crows and the long-awaited Dance of Dragons)!

[OrphanPip]

The fifth book is a bit overdue, it's been five years since the last one was published and Martin is tight lipped about his progress on the most recent one.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled a Robert Jordan though.

[mortalterror]

Yet, he continues to work on a ton of other projects (http://georgerrmartin.com/news.html). I think the guy just has the worst case of writer's block imaginable. I mean seriously it's been five freaking years since the last one and he supposedly had half the book already done five years ago (in his decision to split A Feast of Crows and the long-awaited Dance of Dragons)!

That's what I'm saying. He's got FU money now and can do whatever he wants, which doesn't include finishing this series. Meanwhile, HBO just drove another truckload of cash up to his house and dumped it on his lawn. You'll notice incidentally that the title of the series is A Game of Thrones, NOT A Song of Ice and Fire. If we get lucky and they pick up the series for sequential seasons he doesn't have to write another book for at least four years.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think he's written himself into a deep hole, which he's pretty much admitted, calling his current process unraveling a great "Knot," or something of the like. He's created such a complicated story, he doesn't know where to go. Or, maybe he realizes he doesn't have the ability to write a satisfactory ending, for him or his fans.

I'm still hopeful that it will be finished, though. After-all, more books means more cash. Plus, I would be surprised if there isn't a desire to see his project through. I am prepared, though, to not get an ending.

[Drkshadow03]

That's what I'm saying. He's got FU money now and can do whatever he wants, which doesn't include finishing this series. Meanwhile, HBO just drove another truckload of cash up to his house and dumped it on his lawn. You'll notice incidentally that the title of the series is A Game of Thrones, NOT A Song of Ice and Fire. If we get lucky and they pick up the series for sequential seasons he doesn't have to write another book for at least four years.

Maybe. I think Mutatis has it right, though, and it's probably a bad case of writer's block. This was probably his most ambitious project to date in that previously all his novels have been single books, not 500-1000+ page multi-book monstrosities. He's probably stuck for that reason. It's like nothing he's ever written previously, and he has plenty of money to do what he feels like without worrying about putting food on the table.

Supposedly he's almost done with the next book. Rumor has it he only needs to finish 5 more chapters.

[Paulclem]

It's a great series. I hope he gets around to finishing it. I stumbled onto the first one and recommended it to my brother. We both eagerly awaited the next publication. This one has been a long time coming.

He's a good writer. I was impressed by the quality in Fevre Dream.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Yes, Fevre Dream is excellent.

And Drkshadow has it right in that this is completely different than anything he's written. All of his other stories, long and short, usually follow only a couple characters and have a strict beginning-middle-end structure, which ASOIAF definitely doesn't have,

And, I too heard the five-chapter thing a few months ago. I'm hesitant to put any stock on his updates concerning progress, haha.

[Mr.lucifer]

In my opinion, I think he lost interest in the series for a while.

[Grit]

I love this series...when the eggs are put in the fire and...well I don't want to spoil it but what happens after that was, for me, one of the most epic moments I've ever experienced in story. Up until that point, Daenerys fate was up in the air, her future reign could simply have been insanity or blind hopefulness. When that happened, however, all her talk of fate and bloodline was solidified and made very real.

As far as epic fantasy goes, I'll still give Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time the nod as my favorite. Song of Ice and Fire is a close second, a very well written, and detailed universe.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Yes . . .

SPOILERS

The birth of the dragons is truly one of the most epic moments in fantasy literature. Awesome scene. Can't wait to see HBO's adaptation of it.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Hey, there is now a release date for the next book, A Dance with Dragons. July 17th.

I'm re-reading A Game of Thrones (it's still excellent) right now in preparation for the HBO (which looks awesome) and want to read the other three before I move onto ADwD. Hopefully the paperback will be out by the time I get finished with the rest of the series (as I plan to read plenty in between).

[Mariamosis]

I am about 3/4 of the way through the 3rd book. Unfortunately he killed off some of my favorite characters and I am having trouble picking it back up after a few months of neglect. .... and anyway I really don't see a point if he never finishes it. (Mutatis-Mutandi, how many times have we heard the news of a new release date) :)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

he killed off some of my favorite characters
He has a habit of doing that. :nod:

(Mutatis-Mutandi, how many times have we heard the news of a new release date) :)
I actually don't know. Ignorance is bliss.

[imoody16]

I saw that you wanted to address it, so I will put it simply. I find parts of the text reprehensible, Drkshadow thinks differently, we'll have to agree to disagree, or some other such. In truth, I don't have a text in front of me, so I cannot use quotes, so it becomes a game of mere speculation, and memory digging.

Like Drkshadow said, it is a perspective novel, a technique vaguely borrowed from, I would think, Faulkner, with a different narrator on each chapter, though with the absence of the interior monologue in favor of a highly focalised third person rendition.

The one, perhaps most disgusting scene I remember reading, before putting down the book, was one about some fellow named Greyjoy (the son of some rebel island guy) misoginystically taking advantage of a barely teenage peasant girl on some boat trip, before abandoning her, and ridiculing her.

The attitude without consequence that such a scene produces I find horrifying. Textually, the scene was not plot relevant, and only an indulgence into the setting, which is despicable. There was no need for the scene thematically. No need for the scene for plot development, or any other such reasons. And in truth, after that, the narrative tried to show the character as sympathetic, rather than condemning him, which I found utterly disgusting.


So I stumbled across this forum specifically looking for discussions of SoIaF, and I felt compelled to register so that I could respond (years after the fact, probably only to make myself feel better) to the accusations of JBI.

JBI. Your complaint, behind general accusations of "misogyny and rape fantasy fueling", seems to be that certain scenes in the books made you uncomfortable, by portraying topic that you (and no doubt the rest of the good people on this forum) would condemn, in a non-condemning fashion.

You were disgusted by the actions of some of Martin's characters. Why is that a bad thing? The cast of SoIaF is (with the exception of the lamentably headless Eddard Stark, IMO) to a man/woman seriously flawed in one way or another.

As some others have mentioned, there are scenes in the book that provoked strong emotions - Dany and the dragons rising from the fire was mentioned, as well as the Red Wedding. Among his characters, there are no heroes, only perspectives - some good, some bad, all presented for the reader's interpretation (well said, whoever said that first). How can a world where such evils, corruptions and banalities exist be adequately described, if not through scenes that provoke appropriate emotional responses to their content?

I would propose that the feelings of disgust that you felt reading certain scenes were intentional. Martin's a decent author, and tells a good story. The point of reading the hundreds of pages he writes is not to find out how the kingdom is saved at the end, it's to experience the journey, just as you're supposed to feel a surge of triumph when the dragons are born, or hear a mental wail of dismay when Eddard is beheaded (seriously, my favorite character, and you kill him in the first book? you're cold Martin, cold), you're supposed to fee disgust, or repulsion or whatever other negative, unpleasant emotion when terrible things are happening.

It's one thing to feel disgusted by a disgusting scene. Some people do disgusting things, and writing about them does not imply approval. It's part of building a richer experience.

It's another to put the book down and hide from the unpleasant feelings provoked by scene. He's not asking you to approve of the horrible things done, he's asking you to appreciate the wide spectrum of emotions required to describe a real world.

If you need your literature to come with moralistic footnotes agreeing with your disapproval of the actions of a character, Martin's probably a little complex for you.

[igrim]

Hello :)

I, too, found this thread and the forums while looking for discussions on the given series of books by Martin.

I agree with a lot of the points made by imoody16 and Drkshadow03 and some others.

A valid point that has been neglected in this (years old) discussion here is that G.R.R.Martin intended the story to be a trilogy - it just "grew" out of it, Martin has admitted to that personally; and it seems to go well with the opinions in this discussion that he'd hit a grandiose writer's block.

Therefore I find most of the things that JBI said close to moot as when you read the other books in the series (if I remember correctly then at the time when he wrote his critique he had read only around two books) the whole picture starts to come together. I find it strange how JBI took one instance of minor-oldster intercourse as a general theme of the books.
Yes - he is very graphic about sex, but he is very graphic about violence too. Truth be told he is very graphic about the whole story - the books read easy because of that, they have this movie-like quality to them, pulp, as someone called it. It is epic fantasy, but in no way is it high literature.

I personally discovered TSOIAF with the HBO series, but as it ran once a week and I had a lot of free time on my hands I picked up the first book before I finished the second episode and finished the third book a day after the last episode of the television series - it is now a fact already that they're going to do a sequel to that - probably the next book. Now I just started the fourth book and am waiting for the fifth to come out next month.

Why are people upset with him for taking a five-year break from writing this series ? I gather he's been busy writing other things during those years and as an author has every right to continue writing a story whenever he's ready. Goethe wrote his Faust over the period of half a century, mind I'm just comparing the times to write something not the literary value of said works of writing compared.

I liked how Ian Banks said that he likes to take a break from his Culture books, because he doesn't think that as a writer he's somehow obligated to cater to the fanboys, who might read his books in a few days and then demand the next one. A writer is an artist, if an artist starts rushing things for profit or popularity the work of art undoubtedly suffers from it.

Anyway, now that I've read some discussions on the series I'll return to reading A Feast For Crows and I'll get back to you :)

[Astazha]

Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to Drk for making this thread worth reading.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think JBI is most responsible for making this thread worth reading. :nod:

And, if you guys want to really get into ASOIAF discussion, check out the official ASOIAF forums. You can just Google them.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Has anyone read the new book in the series, A Dance With Dragons? I am about halfway through, and am less than impressed.

[OrphanPip]

It was alright, it moved the plot forward a bit, I felt the third novel was a bit dragged out.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think the third was the best. A little long, but it definitely had the best plot twists. I'm hoping something of the sort happens in ADWD (don't tell me, lol). So far it's been 500 pages of conversation and traveling.

[kinesj]

Has anyone read the new book in the series, A Dance With Dragons? I am about halfway through, and am less than impressed.

As someone who has read all of them thus far, I honestly wish that I had stopped after A Storm of Swords. The last two have been horrid in my humble opinion. Either he is now dragging the series out to make more money off more books, or he has lost his story and has no idea where he is going. I've no idea which, but the result is effectively the same.

[Drkshadow03]

I liked it. I thought it was a significant improvement from A Feast of Crows. It's the only 500+ page book that I burned through in like two days this year. It has some major plot events that happen, though granted many of them are during the cliffhanger ending, it introduces some new plot events that will complicate matters even further, and shows the aftermath of A Storm of Swords. Many major characters may or may not be dead. We get to explore in depth the previously restricted other continents. It's the only book in the series so far where I actually liked Theon Greyjoy's POV.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I am enjoying Theon's POV. Probably the most interesting of the book.

I think that I'm not reading it very fast (been reading it for two weeks now) is one of the reasons I'm not enjoying it. I think these books should be read fast so it does seem like more happens faster . . . reading a few chapters a night just doesn't cut it. Still, it seems like I've run into more than a couple chapters in which I read them and thought, "Was that even needed?"

Still, I'm not done yet. Need to pick up the pace.

[Chris 73]

I am enjoying Theon's POV. Probably the most interesting of the book.

I think that I'm not reading it very fast (been reading it for two weeks now) is one of the reasons I'm not enjoying it. I think these books should be read fast so it does seem like more happens faster . . . reading a few chapters a night just doesn't cut it. Still, it seems like I've run into more than a couple chapters in which I read them and thought, "Was that even needed?"

Still, I'm not done yet. Need to pick up the pace.

Theon's chapters were the best of the book and Ramsay Bolton one of GRRM's most disturbing creations. (Since The Pear Shaped Man anyway) Possibly inspired by Giles De Rais?

[Charles Darnay]

I enjoyed all 5 books immensely. Dance with Dragons suffers the same fate as Feast For Crows....I don't think his decision to split the two books the way he did really paid off. They result in books that start off slow and lag a bit more than the others....but the endings (particularly Dance With Dragons) are fantastic!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Yes, Ramsay was quite disturbing (and I agree, since I do know the Pear Shaped Man reference--what a creepy story).

I finished. Spoilers ahead.







I still feel disappointed with ADWD. For a 1000+ pages, it just didn't seem to move the plot forward enough. Bran had, what, three chapters? They were kind of neat, but didn't lead much of anywhere. GRRM seemed to have really been building up his character arc in ASOS, and it just kind of stalled once he started being a Greenseer. Arya had some interesting progress, though I don't think GRRM knows where to go with her character. Cersei got out of the jail, and Gregor is back which was not a surprise. Brienne showed back up, but we were given no explanation of how she escaped Corpse-Catelyn's noose, nor did we get any new info of Corpse-Catelyn. Tyrions's story was quite disappointing. He traveled for most of the book, and then had no impact on anything, and never even met with Daenerys. I guess that'll be for the next book, maybe. Jon's story went no-where until the very end, when it felt like GRRM was forcing in another shock for the reader, though I think it's becoming less shocking since the Red Wedding. Plus, I'm sure Meslisandre is just going to resurrect him. There's no way Jon will stay dead. Davos had a few chapters then disappeared. Victarion's chapters seemed pointless--seeing Euron Crow's Eye's exploits would have been much more interesting. Likewise with Asha--boring. As said before, Theon's chapters were excellent, though mostly due to the character writing, and not the plot (and plot is what carries ASOIAF). Quentyn ended up being a useless character. Sansa wasn't even mentioned.

The most disappointing was Daenerys' story arc, though. When she finally rode the dragon, I was like, "YES! Finally!" And then . . . nothing. She left the dragon! And then what happens? She runs into another Khalasar? That AGAIN? So, what, she becomes a Khaleesi again? That was extremely frustrating.

I did like seeing Varys show back up at the end. He's one of my favorites. I've come to the conclusion that he isn't really a eunuch. I'd bet money on it. Also, where was the Hound? Come on, after the huge tease in AFFC, and we don't even get a taste of where he is? Lame.

[Charles Darnay]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a bunch of points, Mutatis-Mutandi. I think, while ADWD was not as fast-paced, plot turning as SOS, I like how Martin took the time to develop some characters in a way he hadn't in the first 3 books. Such as Tyrion: while Tyrion is not as badass or maybe witty as earlier, I think Martin grew him as a character. So even though he doesn't impact much in this book, his chapters are still quite revealing.

Jon's plot - I don't think these were pointless. I enjoyed how we saw all the problems that forced Jon Snow to tear down centuries worth of tradition before he (SPOILERS) suffered a Caesar-like fate. And I do not think he will be revived (I really hope not) - I think his death is necessary for the stand-off between the Wildlings and Stannis' forces. Also I think Stannis is still alive and that letter was a fake.

Bran's plot - I think it became clear in the last Bran chapter, where it is hinted that he is the "enemy" to Azhor Azhai, that we would have to wait until at least book 6 for his story to develop further.

Dany - Since she birthed the dragons, there has been this push for "when will she just conquer the Seven Kingdoms?" But Martin has kept her on a tight leash and put up so many road blocks in her way - meanwhile paving the way for Aegon to come and take over. I think it's an intended frustration on Martin's part that Dany is constantly dragged away from her goals. And I don't think she will stay with Jhaqo.

Quentyn's plot is not the greatest - but I like Martin's style of building up someone's journey just to kill them off before they really do anything (see Eddard Stark). It's kind of a middle finger to those expecting traditional fantasy plot lines.

I agree with you that Victarion seemed pointless - and not all that interesting. It is clear that he will become important during the inevitable sea battle at Slaver's Bay - but he could have done more, or been in the book less.

There were some gaps in the book, I agree. The fact that Davos and Brienne show up, suggest what is about to come but don't do anything seems to just be a "screw you, wait for the next book" - which isn't a good thing. In that way, both AFFC and ADWD suffer the middle of the series syndrome in which they just move things on a bit so the final strike can happen.

That being said, I don't think ADWD was as pointless as you paint it.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Spoilers.



I highly doubt Jon won't be revived. Plus, we don't even really know if he died. He was stabbed four times and then blacked out. Tons of room left open, there. Too much to be coincidence.

Tyrion had some character development, true, but I also found his chapters to be quite annoying. Hoe many times did we have to hear his inner thoughts about killing his father with a crossbow, or where whores go? It got really old.

Aegon is another problem I had with the book, actually. All of a sudden, it turns out Aegon didn't die? He just seemed to pop up out of no where.

[nedstark_93]

the sex is not preferable mainly because its been a literary tradition for quite a long while to kinda to hint at sex but not come out and yell at it. wasn't until the mid to late 1800s that sex in literature got a lot bigger? i can't remember. anyway. i mean its a great book so far. I think that fact that Martin makes the characters so relatable its very easy to get immersed in the story. I think the character of Arya really takes me back to my childhood when I was in similar situations as her like getting into trouble and what i felt like when my dad came and talked to me. yeah im not a girl but its still relatable. tyrion, tho, is my favorite character so far. hes sarcasm makes laugh lolz

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Arya and Tyrion always get the most votes for favorite characters. They're awesome.

[Charles Darnay]

It's all about Littlefinger, or Barristan

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Just saw on Amazon that Martin is now putting out a Game of Thrones graphic novel. He's having Daniel Abraham (a better writer) do the "adaptation," so basically he gets to do nothing but collect the money. Seriously, how many money-grabs does this guy need?

I can't wait for Game of Thrones: The Animated Series.

[Mutie]

I read all the books up to Feast of Crows, but stopped there and couldnt bear anymore. Now I barely remember what was happening. Dany, Jaime, Arya and the bastard boy on the ice wall (forgot name) were characters id like to know the end of.