An Introduction To Poetry

[Tallon]

As a person completely self-taught in literature (my parents and my friend's aren't great readers) i seem to have largely missed out on poetry. Whenever i try to read poetry i seem to phase out, not concentrate, and then realise i haven't really been paying attention. I guess i find it hard to concentrate without characters to enjoy. Sometimes i won't understand the message behind the poem, but even when i do it doesn't seem to touch my emotions like novels.

Now, i'm pretty sure that i can like poetry, i love poetic lines in prose, and i have enjoyed the odd bit of Keats and T.S. Eliot in the past. Many of my favourite novelists are also poets, and great writers in general appreciate poetry. I know the problem is with me and i want to fix it, to enlighten myself.

So i'm looking for advise on what might be a good starting point for a beginner. Perhaps something funny, not too recondite or cryptic, or perhaps even a book on how to appreciate poetry? What got you into poetry? Also, i want to know what about poetry is it that you love, and how does it touch you?

[Jozanny]

Tallon,

I am pretty weird, as a published poet I have little patience with the genre of poetry itself, and Shakespeare's sonnets are not always to be worshipped; he had trouble with his end couplets. JBI, stlukesguild, Petrarch's Love, and quasimodo1 are the forum technocrats. I care less about form and more about emotive power, which you seem to indicate you wish to avoid :D.

A good selective anthology of the *greatest* poetry in the English language is put out by Oxford; if I find my paper back edition I will give you the ISBN, but it is a good starting point for individuals who want to explore. Sample the sonnets, try a little Donne--I love Donne, he survives my scorn because his authenticity transcends abeyance to formalism. Look at Keats, Wordsworth, and I am particularly fond of Coleridge, or was. Robert Browning comes on the heels of the Romantics, and he has been rehabilitated in latter day critical parlance; perhaps you will like his wry mildly sardonic take; he is not too heavy and he is accessible, which is saying a good deal. Modern poets who might not be too intimidating, Robert Frost. WH Auden is intimidating, but he is one of the greats of the 20th century. That is my sampling, not all inclusive, and I left out the epics, but Dante changed the world, and he pays his dues on that to Virgil, both of whom, conveniently, lived before Milton.

[Tallon]

Thanks for all the recommendations Jozanny :D
Having just read Jude The Obscure i'm familiar with a few lines of Browning (Hardy must of been a big fan) so i shall have a look at him certainly. All i know of Donne is "No man is an island, entire of itself" etc. from Hemingway's For Whom The Bell Tolls, and i once saw a good film about a scholar of Donne called 'Wit (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243664/)'. The older poets seem quite difficult to me? Lots of references to mythology etc. which go over my head.

[Jozanny]

Google is the greatest reference tool ever invented. :) Seriously, a good anthology would give you a decent overview. Norton, Oxford. JBI and Petrarch may know of some decent editions which are not too exorbitant.

[Psycheinaboat]

Tallon, I can relate. I wish I had friends I could discuss books with. My mom sometimes asks me what I am reading, to seem that she is really interested in my life, but when I try to explain it falls rather flat as her face looks more and more confused. "Why would you want to read that old stuff?" her expression seems to ask.

Any way, there is a really good anthology that we've discussed here before called Immortal Poems of the English Language edited by Oscar Williams. Another anthology I am fond of is The Voice that is Great Within Us. It includes American poetry from the twentieth century and is edited by Hayden Carruth. I found both of these anthologies in thick paperback for under $10.

As for individual poetry books, I like Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass, Frost's A Boy's Will, Sylvia Plath's Ariel, and Spoon River Anthology by Edgar Lee Masters, just to name a few to start with.

[Jozanny]

Any way, there is a really good anthology that we've discussed here before called Immortal Poems of the English Language edited by Oscar Williams.

I actually think Immortal Poems is the text I was thinking of Psyche, thank you. For myself, I think some of Williams' selections are highly suspect, but for Tallon it would be a decent springboard.

As to your observations about the plight of literary readers, writers fare little better. My mother threatened to sue me more than once for publishing poetry about her mental illness, and she wasn't joking. After I showed her one of my elegies, I learned my lesson, because she could barely restrain her fury, and I never again discussed my output with my family. Still don't. They think it violates them.:idea:

[JBI]

If you want to start general, first you should, if you want life to be easier, read some of the essential Greeks and Romans. Homer, Sappho, Virgil, Hesiod, Virgil and Ovid will be a good start, and you can add 3 or so names in there that will help you to some extent (I left out the idyllic and Elegiac poets of Greece and the political poets of Rome).

From there, in English you probably want the longer fifth edition of the Norton Anthology of Poetry, if you want the most complete introduction, being that it has the majority of most respected English poems in it.

From there, you would need anthologies of the poets themselves. But really, what you need is an introduction of sorts to verse forms, and rhetoric too, which helps. There are a few notes in the Norton, but the book I used as a textbook in school, which taught me basic rhetoric, and scansion was Stephen Adams' Poetic Designs, which according to my professor is the most accessible, and contemporary of books on the subject for beginners.


What you really want though, is to jump into the conversation. So you start with renaissance poets, move through Milton, spend a little time in the 18th century, and move on through the romantics.

The problem though, is the renaissance poets are building on the works of the Italian poet Francesca Petrarcha, and the Sonnet form, which is dominant, is taken from there. So you need to jump in, and grab that one. And then as you go, the trends blur again, and you end up reading more books, even prose works.

By that reason, getting to really know poetry essentially takes hours and hours of reading. You can get a basic grasp quickly, but to get the full throttle, that is, be able to really understand and speak and write on the subject, it takes hours and patience.

For instance, you can read Keats, but if you had Shakespeare, maybe his ending to the Ode to the Grecian Urn would have made more sense, in the sense that he is alluding to Sonnet 54 with his:
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty," -that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

Compared with Shakespeare's

O! how much more doth beauty beauteous seem
By that sweet ornament which truth doth give.

and

And so of you, beauteous and lovely youth,
When that shall vade, by verse distills your truth.


It's those little things which I think most add enjoyment, when you can break down the poem, and see how each of the pieces, each word, is used to add, or change to the effect of the poem. That, I'm afraid, only comes with practice. Someone like T.S. Eliot is essentially incomprehensible to anyone who is reading him first.

That being said, there is some easy poetry out there, but even that benefits from more reading. Even Housman's effect, though he be probably the easiest poet in the language, benefits from a wider knowledge of the tradition.


I think the best way to go, is to get a big anthology, and pick out some poets, preferably earlier ones, that you enjoy, and get a selected works, or a collected poems from the library, and read that. Then branch out from there. I would stay away from any 20th century works at first, simply because they are generally less accessible than earlier works, as the earlier conventions have been so absorbed into our way of thinking.

[Tallon]

I'll try and find that Immortal Poems anthology, if they have it in New Zealand.

JBI aren't the Greeks and Romans hard to read/understand/relate to for a beginner? Does one really need to know the whole history of poetry to enjoy it? It seems like a lot of work to me. I'm no scholar of literature, nor would i want to be, i have no education on the subject i just want to be able to enjoy the odd book.

[JBI]

They are the beginning, it helps when you read something like "The Passionate Shepherd to his Love" to have some sort of idea of the Idyllic tradition - then when you read Raleigh's reply, the poem seems far more profound. But true, you don't need so much learning, but experience adds to the effect - identification is pleasing to the reader, I find, and being able to relate things is very enjoyable. Really though, you need a basic understanding of the tradition - for like 30 or so books I would say, most for only a few poems, which would create a good grounding. The Norton Anthology contains most of the tradition inside it, up until around 1960. But beyond that, it depends at what level you wish to sit.

[Silas Thorne]

I also find that Stephen Fry's 'The Ode Less Travelled' is a very enjoyable way to learn to appreciate verse forms and metre. I've only just started it, but I appreciate iambs even more now, though I still need lots of practice ;)

New Zealand's summer rains wait in the clouds
until I go outside- and then I'm screwed.
Umbrellaless, I must accept my fate.

I tried to read books on metre before... but none were as appealing.

[Saladin]

I hope that Norton Anthology is good, i just ordered it :=)

[Tallon]

I also find that Stephen Fry's 'The Ode Less Travelled' is a very enjoyable way to learn to appreciate verse forms and metre. I've only just started it, but I appreciate iambs even more now, though I still need lots of practice ;)

New Zealand's summer rains wait in the clouds
until I go outside- and then I'm screwed.
Umbrellaless, I must accept my fate.

I tried to read books on metre before... but none were as appealing.

:D I am definitely going to get the Fry book, which i have heard of. I love Fry, his autobiography is great.

[Tallon]

I just got Norton out of the library, it looks intimidating. Unfortunately they didn't have Immortal Poems on their system, and i couldn't find it in my bookshop.

[Silas Thorne]

Cool. I think Fry's pretty great and fun to get into. I must correct myself though:

My fears did not eventuate my friends,
the weather that they said would come did not,
and I, afraid of grey skies, went outside
to find that Summer's warmth embraced me still.

[JBI]

Fry, I fell, is more geared towards people who wish to write poetry, and not very great poetry anyway. If you want to get a real introduction into poetry, one that is more useful, I think Adams, or Fussell, or even Hollander's books are better. I have yet to read Mark Strands newish book on verse forms, though it should come from the library soon. When I read that, I will comment on it to - but for now, I think Adams is the king at teaching about scansion, form and rhetoric.


It depends though - some wish to simply write basic verse - that is what I think a book like Fry's gives you, but to understand verse, or write good verse, takes effort, and reading of the major players, and a studying of the major styles.

[Silas Thorne]

It depends though - some wish to simply write basic verse - that is what I think a book like Fry's gives you, but to understand verse, or write good verse, takes effort, and reading of the major players, and a studying of the major styles.

Exactly. I think its good to do that too (make an effort, and get joy out of reading the major players and styles) , and so does Fry in his book. I'll check out the books you refer to , but I do think that Fry's book is accessible as an introduction to poetic forms for me at the moment. I've started it anyway- later I'll move on to the others you have mentioned. Thanks for giving me some other places to look for information: Fry mentions other works, but not these.

I'm just having fun, practising as I do so.

And about Fry's book not teaching to write great poetry... he teaches the forms and metres. Whether or not the person reading the book can write great poetry or not (I believe anyway), depends on persistent effort, wide and careful reading, and talent. If a work is interesting enough for the reader to persist and find joy in the thing, and maybe to move on to other works on scansion, rhetoric etc, is that not a good thing?

[mayneverhave]

If a work is interesting enough for the reader to persist and find joy in the thing, and maybe to move on to other works on scansion, rhetoric etc, is that not a good thing?

I agree here. Interest (a desire to write to begin with) is necessary. If I did not want to write poetry (and to an even greater degree, understand it) a study of metre would hardly seem warrented.

It is not at all hard to believe that every human, no matter how destitute of even the basest of emotions, at one point or another in their life has a feeling they wish to express. The key to writing, then, is the ability to put this feeling into words, and more importantly, words that express something beautifully.

I've often been jealous of Shakespeare. Hamlet walks around displeased, but able to express himself in such eloquence that it is intimidating. Rarely, if ever, do we posses the ability to put our thoughts into such beautiful poetry.

That is what study and practice is for. Maybe one day...

[Snowqueen]

Hey Tallon!
I suggest you better start with Wordsworth, Coleridge, Keats and Shelley.
If you haven’t read “The Rime of the Ancient Mariner” (by Coleridge) yet, then read it now. It’s a nice and simple ballad (with a spooky touch).

[Jozanny]

Fry, I fell, is more geared towards people who wish to write poetry, and not very great poetry anyway. If you want to get a real introduction into poetry, one that is more useful, I think Adams, or Fussell, or even Hollander's books are better. I have yet to read Mark Strands newish book on verse forms, though it should come from the library soon. When I read that, I will comment on it to - but for now, I think Adams is the king at teaching about scansion, form and rhetoric.


It depends though - some wish to simply write basic verse - that is what I think a book like Fry's gives you, but to understand verse, or write good verse, takes effort, and reading of the major players, and a studying of the major styles.

JBI, I think you need to keep in mind that you are preparing to be a scholar; Tallon wants to read for pleasure, and as such, does not have to cram his head with iambs and spondees. You and I fundamentally disagree on a number of things, including what makes poetry good, or even great. I wrote terribly bad things as a student, but I wrote really strong material, as well, which got me my first notice from American Poetry Review, and that despite the fact that I loathe sonnets. I have published over 300 poems, some of which, true, are not worth the time of day--but then again, I have to be doing something right even if Yeats leaves me, for the most part, indifferent.

I am not trying to be anti-intellectual, and I value the insights of a good critic, but give Tallon a chance to breathe, and figure out what he finds moving. He is a lay reader, so allow him to be that for a little while.:p

Tallon, I find a good translation of Ovid fairly accessible, and what you do not know can always be researched, with or without Google. Relax, take your time, recite what you are reading, and don't pause at the line breaks. Pause as you would following standard punctuation. Good luck, and maybe I will mail you one of my collections, eventually.;) My imagery interlocks in complex ways...

[mayneverhave]

Good luck, and maybe I will mail you one of my collections, eventually.;) My imagery interlocks in complex ways...

Haha, I knew that was coming eventually.

[Jozanny]

Haha, I knew that was coming eventually.

All writers are terrible egotists, but I am a real one, and not someone just starting out, and I was also being a tad playful. JBI might not run from my tropes (and he has seen a few samples) but Tallon might. I kind of write for the priesthood already in the ivory tower.:p

[mayneverhave]

All writers are terrible egotists, but I am a real one, and not someone just starting out, and I was also being a tad playful. JBI might not run from my tropes (and he has seen a few samples) but Tallon might. I kind of write for the priesthood already in the ivory tower.:p

Excellent. I need to find an audience for my verse. My fellow students hate it, but that's because I measure it based on how many allusions I can fit on a single line.

[JBI]

Pound probably puts you to shame - he is the allusion king - he has multilingual ones, with different alphabets, unless of course, you do, in which case, I think you are as incomprehensible as he is.

[mayneverhave]

Pound probably puts you to shame - he is the allusion king - he has multilingual ones, with different alphabets, unless of course, you do, in which case, I think you are as incomprehensible as he is.

Oh definitely. I've had my encounters with Pound, Cantos that are made up entirely of a musical score. The Waste Land I can handle, to a degree, but Pound is a mystery for now.

Mostly though I like to have that sense of "F-You" in my poetry - in response to the very boring, drippy, sentimental, cliched writing that I encounter most often from my peers.

[prendrelemick]

Tallon, I too am a self taught, self motavated reader of literature. I know EXACTLY that feeling you describe when trying to read poetry.
I've done the Greek and Roman bit, I've read books on metre and stress and poetic thought. To be honest it hasn't helped much in my case. However there are certain poets and poems I can appreciate. I think its a case of finding a voice you can recognise. Good luck.

[Tallon]

Thanks everyone :) this is a great forum to ask questions on.

I know i can look up references that i don't understand on google, i'm a google-maniac, but i'm more worried about spotting the references. For example, Ode on a Grecian Urn is probably my favourite of the 3 or 4 poems i actually already know but i had no idea that "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," was a reference to Shakespeare. I guess i'll have to read some criticism to spot all the details.

[Bitterfly]

It's only after a while, when you've read a lot, that you start spotting references. It's a wonderful game to play, especially with poets such as Pound or Eliot, but I think you can appreciate them (and Keats!) without understanding every single reference. I love the Wasteland for its aesthetic beauty, but since I've never made the effort to study it, I definitely don't understand all the intertext. One day I'll make that effort, but for the moment I stick to basic enjoyment!

[stlukesguild]

Whenever i try to read poetry i seem to phase out, not concentrate, and then realize i haven't really been paying attention. I guess i find it hard to concentrate without characters to enjoy. Sometimes i won't understand the message behind the poem, but even when i do it doesn't seem to touch my emotions like novels.

There have been a good many excellent suggestions made here. Certainly I agree with the notion of starting with a good anthology as well as a good introduction to the forms, structure, language, etc... of poetry. To all of this I will add that you must recognize that poetry is another beast altogether from the novel or from narrative story-telling. Poetry is is many ways far more related to music... to song. The rhythm... the music... the sound is far more essential than in most prose. The "meaning" is often far more layered... or left ambiguous. Mood and atmosphere are often more essential. Poetry, in reality, employs a range of vocabulary... a language that is often far different from the novel or the story and as with any language it must be learned to be truly appreciated... and then enjoyed... but the effort is unquestionably worth it. While I love narrative... and my acquaintances continually suggest that I missed my calling painting when I should be a novelist/writer of stories... I find that poetry often speaks far more to my personal preferences as a visual artist. As such I tend to read far more poetry now than novels or other forms of narratives.


Now, i'm pretty sure that i can like poetry, i love poetic lines in prose, and i have enjoyed the odd bit of Keats and T.S. Eliot in the past. Many of my favourite novelists are also poets, and great writers in general appreciate poetry. I know the problem is with me and i want to fix it, to enlighten myself.

So i'm looking for advise on what might be a good starting point for a beginner. Perhaps something funny, not too recondite or cryptic, or perhaps even a book on how to appreciate poetry? What got you into poetry? Also, i want to know what about poetry is it that you love, and how does it touch you?