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one_raven
11-28-2008, 03:18 AM
As a child, being a Catholic was no different to me than being an Italian/Scotch-Irish/German by descent.
I was Catholic by descent.
I knew other religions existed – I even knew a bit about what some of them believed.
I was fortunate enough to be raised in one of the most culturally and religiously diverse areas of the world – Northern New Jersey. My childhood school pictures looked like a UN Security Council in miniature.
However, just as I was born Italian, I was born Catholic.

One day, in my third grade class, the teacher was talking about what Deists believe. She taught us that they believed that there is a God who started it all, but then pulled away to let things happen as they will. Their God did not intervene at all.

My first thought was that this made sense to me.
Then something clicked. I’m not sure exactly how or why it happened, but it did.
I instantly realized that religion isn’t something that was part of who I am. It was something I chose to be a part of – or chose to not be a part of.

It made me think of all the questions I got in trouble for asking in CCD. For those who are not familiar, CCD stands for “Confraternity of Christian Doctrine”. It is the Catholic Church’s method of indoctrinating school-aged kids.
“Teacher. We have been to the moon. We know that if we get out of the atmosphere our heads will explode. How come God didn’t know that, and he felt he had to change everyone’s language when they were building the Tower of Babel?”
“Teacher. Who lived in the Land of Nod?”
“Teacher. If Adam and Eve were the first two people, and incest is a sin…”

I immediately decided I was no longer Catholic.

This started a long search for what I did believe. The more I learned about the history of the Church, the words of Jesus and what other religions had to say, the less faith I had in the Christian God.

No matter how much I was opposed to the idea of a cognizant Creator God watching over us, I could never call myself an atheist and I could not figure out why.
Was it my Catholic indoctrination? After all, as a very young child I talked to God and was convinced he talked back to me.
Was it social pressure?
Was it being unsure of myself?
Was it simply an easy way to explain the mysteries of the Universe?

For years I would never refer to myself as an atheist and when people would ask I would say that I was an agnostic with Buddhist leanings.

The reason, I finally figured out, why I could not call myself an atheist is that I did believe in something greater, grander and more powerful than us – than life itself. This thing I saw as divine. I had a humble reverence for it. I was in awe of its power. This thing was, for all intents and purposes, equivalent to – hell, even more powerful than – any God I had heard or read about.
It, however, was not cognizant. It had no intention, save for what we gave it. It was not angry, benevolent, malevolent, jealous or any other human trait we prescribed to Gods, yet it was – in my view – sacred.

The Devil and God are indistinguishable.
Both reside in the collective intentions, actions and knowledge of man, and they are in a constant struggle with each other.

Every action you take affects the lives and decisions of countless people around you and each one of those actions that were affected by your action affects many more.
It is an endless collection of ripples interacting in an infinite pool of time.

Any decision you make, regardless of how insignificant it may seem on the surface, could ultimately end up affecting the lives of millions of people that you don’t even know, and many that you do know.
What is most important is being mindful of the contributions you make to it by virtue of simply existing and interacting with other life.
It is important to acknowledge the fact that we and our lives are so intrinsically intertwined and powerfully influenced by this, and that we would do well to keep that in mind when we make the choices we do.
We certainly are self-determined animals, but we are constantly inundated with influences in our lives, and while that is certainly no excuse to absolve yourself of your responsibility and accountability for your actions, not being mindful of such influences will cause you to fall prey to it. The immense power of this is something that should be revered, not blamed, because the source of the blame is placed squarely on individuals and their actions.
As such, nothing is more important than integrity and compassion in action.

Although its existence cannot be seen, heard, measured or quantified, it certainly has very real effects.
It swept through the Deep South many years ago and convinced people that they were justified in lynching human beings based on the color of their skin.
It pulled people together at home to gather their efforts and cooperate while their sons and husbands were off fighting World War II.
It made Michael Jackson a star.
It made Michael Jackson a pitiful laughing stock.

Even inanimate objects have a role to play. If a tree falls and blocks your path, you must find a way over, through or around it.
What if that tree falls on an ambulance in its way to rescue a dying child?
Everything is interconnected, and those interconnections, are a beautiful example of synergy. The sum really is greater than the whole of its parts.
Every action you take, every word you speak, every thought you have, becomes a part of this, influences it and can be greatly magnified by it.
That synergy is what I worship.

It is Chaos Theory.
It is The Butterfly Effect.
It is Karma, Manifest.

While there may well be Fundamental Metaphysical Truths out there which we have no control over, reality is certainly manifest through belief and actions.
Does the Christian God exist? If people believe in him, he does. All Gods exist.
Whether or not God’s existence is a Metaphysical Truth, it is a reality. If people believe in him, their lives are affected by this belief as much as they would be if he did exist then he does.

The power inherent in Gods is the power inherent in collective belief and action.
If a million people believe in the God Ralph, and these million people act in a concordance with what they believe Ralph wants them to act, does it really matter if Ralph’s existence is a matter of Metaphysical Truth? The results are the same.

While I do not hold any belief that any cognizant Gods exist as a matter of Metaphysical Truth, they do, in fact, exist in reality.
I do not worship these Gods, I do, however, worship Karma Manifest in much the same way that people worship these Gods of theirs.
Thus, I am not a theist or an atheist.

I am a non-theist.

planet earth
11-28-2008, 12:25 PM
My first thought was that this made sense to me.
Then something clicked. I’m not sure exactly how or why it happened, but it did.
The Devil and God are indistinguishable.


Ok, Thank you for sharing your thoughts and how you became a non-theist. But you know what you are actually doing you are searching for God, and why you can't get this out of your mind it is simply because He is simple the common sense within you and within us all. God is synonomous to absolute truth, absolute beauty, and absolute justice. Look for them to find Him, Look within yourself, for your ability to read and write, and move your joints, and you will know who he is.

Let me tell you that for thirty one years I was able to open my mouth and close it, automatically, or so I thought, I did not sense the blessing in the fact that my jaws could open up. Until an accident that happened to me three months ago. A very simple bang on my left cheek, left me unable to open my mouth, Oh, then it was not something for granted then, It was He who allowed my mouth to open the past thirty one years is the one who allowed that I could not open my mouth, due to a very slight accident. It was then, although I am believer, that I saw Wisdom in His actions and His Mercy descending upon me. I witnessed such a simple blessing, or I thought it was simple. I was so sure it could have been worse, but it was not. It was a blessing that now I know and certify that the movement of my fingers on the key board are a blessing. The words he allowed me to write are a blessing and that witnessing His presence, beauty and overwhelming order, is a blessing.

He is there and Here and everywhere, He has no time or shape we know of. If we do not see his order it is not because He is not controlling us, our lives and our actions, it is because we are very limited and short sighted.

Once more I would give the example of the sugared cup of tea. Those who refuse to drink the cup claiming they can't see the sugar, cant realize that one must taste the cup of tea, to sense that the sugar is there, and it is what sweetened the cup of tea, and nothing else, no matter its form was like.

I believe who those who believe and have not seen are only those who are given the ability to see.

As for the Devil, let me tell you that the Devil's actions and plans are weak, and he could not ever be compared to God's Power, omniscience and Wisdom.

Allah; God for to Him belongs all the Splendid Appellations, is Supreme but close. Everything that occurs even a leaf that has fallen has fallen according to his order and for a reason according to his Wisdom.

I testify that

He is Allah the One
He has no wife, He has no son
Everyone has partners, He has not
All this universe is by Him alone Run
What He wants to happen, by a word is done
And he wants to end it everything is gone.

Worshipping Him is peace, as He is The Peace.

one_raven
11-28-2008, 09:06 PM
planet earth,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, but I could not disagree more with your asessment about what I am searching for.
I have no interest in following Allah.
I have found what I have been searching for.

backline
12-05-2008, 12:01 PM
I always thought adding the "A" to anything meant "of no particular."
I.E. Amoral as opposed to immoral.

To me if I said I was A-theist it would mean "of no particular theism."

However I realize that in today's parlance to say you're atheist informs others that you think there is no God. To say you are agnostic now means it cannot be known.

Language is a funny moving target. I know "A"-theists who are spiritually minded, but most atheists I know casually seem against the idea of there being any gods.

I suppose I could say I were "irreligious" (as maybe Jesus was), but still acknowledge deep core beliefs that masquerade as religious postures. I may call those values spiritual without believeing in any anthropomorphized supernatural characters in charge of the universe. The experience of awareness of universal truths may or may not involve dieties. Therefore I could be both spiritual and atheist by definition. Getting that across to others may take more than a simple label however. People seem to prefer easy one-word catagories to communication however.

planet earth
12-09-2008, 04:39 AM
I always thought adding the "A" to anything meant "of no particular."
I.E. Amoral as opposed to immoral.

To me if I said I was A-theist it would mean "of no particular theism."

However I realize that in today's parlance to say you're atheist informs others that you think there is no God. To say you are agnostic now means it cannot be known.

Language is a funny moving target. I know "A"-theists who are spiritually minded, but most atheists I know casually seem against the idea of there being any gods.

I suppose I could say I were "irreligious" (as maybe Jesus was), but still acknowledge deep core beliefs that masquerade as religious postures. I may call those values spiritual without believeing in any anthropomorphized supernatural characters in charge of the universe. The experience of awareness of universal truths may or may not involve dieties. Therefore I could be both spiritual and atheist by definition. Getting that across to others may take more than a simple label however. People seem to prefer easy one-word catagories to communication however.

Will simply "devoted worshipppers" to the divine be the very simple label. You know to think of a Divine Power controlling our lives, is common sense. It is innate in us. Being spiritual means believing in something. And when the Quest is on, you find what you are looking for. I believe no one asks God to guide him to His way and God will not Guide Him. Let us just all ask for His Guidance.

Abraham, searched for God and found Him, and so did Muhammad, and so will happen with everyone else searching for Him. whether when starts the search within himself or in the universe or in science and technology, clues are all around, we just need to see them

one_raven
12-10-2008, 08:55 PM
You know to think of a Divine Power controlling our lives, is common sense. It is innate in us.

I couldn't disagree more.
It's a conditioned response - we learn it.

planet earth
12-12-2008, 08:16 AM
No we don't believe me we don't learn it.

It is within us when we look at the skies, the moon, the sun, different seasons, as I said before the movement of joints and so on. Vision, everything. These possessions have a Possessor, an owner.

If you have a son who does not want to believe that you are his father, it does not mean that you are not his father. It is what you reach about God when you think about his presence alone without preaching that you know Him. Then choose whichever, gives you what you have known about Him.

I really don't mind if you disagree, but I am happy with this discussion, despite the opposition.The discourse is very respectful and that is what is most important.

one_raven
12-12-2008, 11:25 PM
I really don't mind if you disagree, but I am happy with this discussion, despite the opposition.The discourse is very respectful and that is what is most important.

I agree.

Tell me...
Would you have believed in Allah if no one had taught you who he was?

planet earth
12-15-2008, 04:43 AM
Let me answer your question with another

How do you know you have a heart without seeing it, what is the proof that a heart exists within us? Feeling, Love , and so on. I have a four year old daughter who knows for sure without myself telling her that the feeling of love arouses from somewhere in the chest. She points where the heart is and tells me I feel I love you from here.

One more thing. there is a difference between belief and certainity. In Arabic that would be al Iman and al yakeen respectively.

It may happen that even if you believe that you are not certain. But believing makes and performing what belief makes you do leads you to certanity. you have to believe to be certain.

Could you imagine that this forum was not designed by a webdesigner and some energy did it?

Could you imagine a Kingdom with no King or with multiple kings that would ruin it with their fights?

Could you imagine that the sun and moon change everyday in times so precise without a governing great power not doing this.

It is true that the world has its sufferings but this was not because God left it after he created it, it is to make us certain. When you incline to him after all these sufferings, you get closer and when you get closer you know Him and when you Know Him you Love Him, and when you Love Him you don't want to abandon Him and when you don't want to abandon Him, you will not see the sufferings of the world but will experience the ecstacy and joy of being with Him

One last point, what if there is God, Allah and we don't worship Him, and then it happens to be God, and an after life, what will we do then, but if there is not, but there is, but if there is not, and you have submitted yourself to him, thinking there is , what will you lose?

I have written a small piece of work called Kill yourself and Always Online, they are about the same subject, I have published them here, if you would wish to read them. If you don't find them tell me and I will send them to you.

Thank you one_raven for allowing me to express these thoughts hoping that we do reach a common point. and Inside me ofcourse this point is belief, or certanity.

NikolaiI
12-23-2008, 03:55 AM
I do not believe in any God. I do not believe in any Scripture.

blazeofglory
12-23-2008, 11:28 AM
In fact God is an ideology, a process, a concept. God is not a thing. God is not an entity.

All of us, Hindus, Muslims, Christians keep on shoring up our own model of God, and this is really foolishness and this creates a void or gulf between us.

NikolaiI
12-23-2008, 02:15 PM
Hehehe, my post was untrue, I just wanted to get a post from Blazeofglory :D:D

blazeofglory
12-25-2008, 12:43 AM
Hehehe, my post was untrue, I just wanted to get a post from Blazeofglory :D:D

Nikolai, I see you as a man of integrity who goes by his words. Here your schismatic quote flabbergasted me. I could not say whether you are satirical or straightforward. It is equivocal.