"The Great Gatsby" share us the discussion

[Ranoo]

Hi everybody,
Some of you agreed on having discussion on "The Great Gatsby" by F. Scott Fitzgerald I'll send some comments which ,I had written on the novel, and I'll be waiting to see your participation.
Before anything how would you like to start our discussion? As a suggestion I think one of the main idea that we have to give it more emphasis , is that WHY Gatsby is GREAT?
This's main let me hear from you dear, Till that, I'll start our discussion by question that made me beset with curiosity In fact, I couldn't find a satisfactory answer for it. The question is Why number 4& 5? To be honest I find something about number 4 click here hattp://www.fcps.k12.va.us/westspringfieldhs/academic/english/1projest/99gg/99gg2/water.htm
Yet ,I don't understand why number 5.

[Ranoo]

Do you notice the domination of number5 in the novel ,and espically it appears with the important events or episodes .
Follow me please :

1)Daisy gets married to Tom at 5 o'clock" at five O'clock she married Tom Buchanan without so much as a shiver" chapter 4p..62

2),Gatsby's reunion with Daisy happens in chapter 5.

3)Gatsby meets her after 5 years "Five years next November " chapter 5, p.71.

4) The meeting itself happens at around 5 o'clock ,because Daisy arrives at 4 o'clock to Nick's house ,which means as I imagine that, for it must take time till the ice barrier between her and Gatsby melts .By reason of it is a first meeting to her with Gatsby after a long time .

5) Gatsby stayed Five months at Oxford university "I only stayed five months….I can't call myself an Oxford man…"chapter 7,p.104

6)Gatsby's funeral happens "about five O'clock …." Chapter 9.p.143

7) also on the same page ."a little later four or five servants and postman fro West Egg,….all wet to skin" chapter 9

8) Nick meets Tom after Gatsby's death again " along Fifth Avenue in his alert……Suddenly he saw me and waked back…"chapter 9p.146

9)Also number 5 is repeated many time in Chapter 3,for example,
a) "..five crates of orange and lemons arrived from a fruiterer in New York….."p.31
b)"..the cars from New YORK are parked five deep in the drive…"p.32
c) Nick describes Gatsby's smile as "IT was one of those rare smiles ….. that you come across four or five times in life. "p.38


Why number 5?
Is it a coincident, or Fitzgerald intendeds that for a certain reason? Does this number have any specific connotation or denotations ?

[Sitaram]

I was unable to find anything in the search engines which explicitly discusses Fitzgerald's recurrent motif of FIVE.

As Sigmund Freud, that great interpreter of symbols, once said, "Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar."

Sometimes five is just five. We have five fingers. The word G-R-E-A-T has five letters, but that may well be accidental. The word "five" has a nice sound. How interesting it is that the word "five" has only four letters! What can we make out of all this?

The number six is important in Plato, since six is the "first perfect number," (i.e. a number which is the sum of its prime factors).

We may observe that five is the THIRD prime number.

I am searching for material on the symbolism of FIVE in genera.

The Chinese system also uses the symbolism of five elements - wood, fire, earth, metal and water.

5dspace-time.org/Chapter0.html

The original purpose of this investigation was to probe deeply into the symbolism of five Chinese characters, those characters that symbolize the first five numbers (). These characters symbolize ancient Chinese finger signs.

What were discovered in these finger signs are patterns. These patterns demonstrate that there is order in the universe. Each of the five patterns symbolizes one stage in a cycle. The universe evolves according to one cycle, one pattern, and all evolution in the universe follows the same cyclic pattern.

mill-valley.freemasonry.biz/symbolism.htm

The number five [1] and its byproduct, the pentagram, have symbolic prominence and have been attributed extraordinary qualities. Possibly before ancient Sumerian astronomers observed the curious natural phenomena that of the seven visible planets, only Venus traced a regular geometric pattern, a pentagram in eight-year cycles, this number and figure may have already achieved symbolic import. We can confirm at least that what was observed above, was repeated by man here below. In examining remaining monuments of this distant past we find evidence that in fact the symmetry of the pentagram was utilized in mans most important architectural edifices. We may also interpret the stone work of this initiatic tradition in light of literary references to such western traditions such as those of the Pythagoreans, Jews, Christians, Druids, as well as the Lataif of Sufi tradition, and Hindu Tattwas. (See Appendix.) The pentagram served the Pythagoreans as a salutation and a symbol of health. Medieval masons considered it a symbol of deep wisdom and integrated its proportions in ecclesiastical edifices. In recent times, professor Matila Gyrka called the pentagram the "gateway to absolute independence;" "symbol of deep wisdom;" and an "ideal archetype of dynamic growth." It is not surprising that we find such symbolism reoccurring in speculative Masonry and Masonic Rosicrusianism.

As A Masonic Symbol
The number five and the pentagram are prominent symbols in speculative Masonry, and its concordant bodies. They appear in both patent and latent forms. This trestleboard will explore where the number five occurs in the three degrees, and will attempt to explain why they have been and remain such potent symbols.

In Masonry, the pentagram first appears in the monitorial section of the first degree. It appears as the blazing star on the checkered pavement. In the second degree the symbolism of five becomes most prevalent. We find that a lodge of fellowcrafts is composed of five officers (two masters and three fellowcrafts). [2] In due-form, the candidate’s arms and legs form four right angles in different planes inside a fifth right angle.[3] Our attention is drawn to the five senses, and the five orders of architecture. Our attention is particularly drawn to the fifth liberal art, geometry. In some countries rather than the letter "G" the candidate is introduced to a blazing star suspended in the East. Another symbol that has become obsolete in American Masonry is the broached thurnel also known as the pointed cubical stone. [4] A fellowcraft is said to have attained the age of five years. In the third degree, the speculative mason is introduced to the five points of fellowship, which on some Masonic charts is represented as a star inscribed with clasped hands. [5] We might also see in the three interlaced triangles that make up a pentagram a demonstration of the intimate connection between the three ancient grand masters. [6] This tri-part relationship becomes even more apparent in the symbolism of certain supernumerary degrees.

Addition And Multiplication Of Numbers
Geometry provides a clue to what these symbols seek to reawakening in the mind of the initiate. In St. Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians, Paul questions how men, "May be able to comprehend with all saints what is breadth, and length, and depth and height." Ephesians, 3:18. We have learned in Lodge that geometry treats of the powers and properties of magnitudes in general, where length, breadth, and thickness are considered. From a point to a line, to a superfice, to a solid: Or it is the transition from the first, to the second, to the third dimension.

The beginning of all geometrical matter is the point. [7] A point has no length, breadth, or thickness. Hildegard [8] described the creator as a sphere with the center everywhere and circumference nowhere (i.e., a point within a circle). The point might be described as unity, the monad, [9] the source, the unrealized beginning of all matter. In symbolic mathematics one is omnipotence since one raised to any power (squared, cubed, etc.) is still one. [10]

The first extension into the first dimension is a line. [11] The line has length, but no breadth or thickness. It is the dyad, polarity, positive-negative (but without connection, still just a potentiality), yin-yang, hot and cold, wet and dry. It is the male-female relationship unmanifest because no child manifests their relationship. It is the artist, brush in hand before touching the canvas. In Masonry consider Boas and Jachin as terminal points in a line. Symbolically it is the will of God to manifest yet remaining unmanifested. [12]

[Ranoo]

Hi Sitarma ,
First of all I want to apologize my late replay. Sorry for this.
:thumbs_up Wow really great answer ! yes the word great contains five letters.

You know Sitaram I strongly believe that Fitzgerald meant something by number five, because the story is full with symbols and each one of them sometimes has more than one true interpretation.

When you wrote about the symbol of that number in Chinese ,I remember our literary criticism :cool: professor's answer ,when I asked him if we can analyze the literary text depending on completely different culture, then he answered yes ,of course ,if it in harmony with the whole meaning of the text and if there were textual evidences .

Thank you Sitarma a lot you comfort me ;) .Still I belive that this is not the end .There must be something else.This is litreature :idea: :crash:

[Ranoo]

I appreciate this !
Thanks Sitarma.I just want to know if it's okay to send what you have written, of course under your name, to another literary site as a link :banana: . :wave:

[Sitaram]

Much of what I posted is just excerpts from the links I cite. Anything that is my own is free for anyone to take and use as they like. They don't even have to give me credit.

[Ranoo]

I don't know how to thank you Sitaram !

This is a site on numbers' meanings.I hope it is of use too :D .

http://www.thedreamtime.com/spirit/num_meanings.html#num5

[kelby_lake]

I think by 'great', he means sort of fantastic and unbelievable, like the great lengths he goes to in order to get Daisy. It could also be cynical- what's so great about being a bootlegger?- or in despite of everything Nick does tell Gatsby after all: 'You're worth the whole damn bunch put together'

[JBI]

Hmm, how about these for the two central themes, Sincerity and Authenticity. The opining paragraph describing Gatsby at the beginning of Chapter One seems to show the conflict between these two themes.

[HotKarl]

I think you guys are sort of overlooking something here. One of the central themes in American literature is the escape of time. Has is occurred to you that there are so many references to 5 because, for Gatsby, time has stopped? In his mind, Gatsby's courtship of Daisy takes priority over everything else in life. He effectively puts his life on hold until he recaptures Daisy's love. The recurrence of 5 reminds us that Gatsby has stopped the clock so to speak. Just a thought. As for what the significance of 5 itself? I haven't the foggiest. Why not a recurrence of 1 or 3? So, I certainly don't have all the answers. I'll give it some more thought. Maybe I'll come up with something plausible.

[kelby_lake]

what about accidents? the book is full of accidents- when drink is spilt on a woman's dress, the crash and myrtle being killed, gatsby's death (stemmed from an accident)

[Lioness_Heart]

I always assumed that the 'great' was an ironic comment - Gatsby seems to see himself as 'great', but I never got the feeling that he had much substance. Perhaps by the end of the story, Nick had come to this conclusion and he was dubbed 'great' in reflection of this discrepancy between reality and Gatsby's facade.

Oooh, just had a thought :)

Calling him 'great' in the title made me look at him in a positive, almost adoring light when first introduced to him: was this intentional? To see the illusion pulled down before the reader. That would make the tragic aspect of the book come across more powerfully.

And another thought... maybe stretching it a bit too far, but talking about accidents... although Gatsby is so 'great' he does not have the power to stop these tragedies from unfurling; he does very little to improve any situation... not quite sure exactly what my point was, but I started off with some insight I think...

[kelby_lake]

'the great gatsby' sounds like the title of a magician. 'Jay Gatsby' is a character, a persona assumed by James Gatz in order to appeal to Daisy.
i believe nick says gatsby represented everything for which he had 'an unaffected scorn for', yet it is gatsby's 'extrordinary gift of hope' that saves him. Deluded as he is, he never gave up.

[6079]

Hey guys and girls.
I'm new to this site, so sorry if there are some decencies I ignore.
I just had a thought about this whole five thing, and I'm very sorry if someone else has already pointed it out which is perfectly possible as it's late at night here, and I didn't get through all the comments.
The use of five could sort of be construed at a metonymy for desire(It's stretched, I know), because five related to pentagrams and and Satanism, and the key to Satanism is desire. Most characters in the book are ruled by desire, principally lust- ALL the women cheat, so does Tom, and Nick leaves his fiance for Jordan Baker. So the recurrence of five is to do with the theme of human desire in the book?
Sorry if I'm rambling, as I said, it's late.

[6079]

Lioness Heart, thank you!
I was mystified as to why he was referred to as great, and now that I think about it Fitzgerald's title only made me feel more empty and hopeless for the situation by the end of the novel.
It's an interesting idea, deceiving the reader right from jump, simply to make the ending more tragic.
He was one clever drunk!

[Le Banana]

I think this may be too shallow of a thought but the first thing that came to my mind when you pointed out the continuous recurrence of the number 5, was Nick, Jordan, Daisy, Tom, and Gatsby. They are the main characters of the novel.

The number 4 seems like a very pleasant number. Dividable and such. And just the thought of 2 + 2 gives a feeling of completeness.

As for the number 5, there is always the odd one out. (In this case, it would be Gatsby). 2.5 + 2.5 ... does not give any feeling of completeness?

Hence, the number used to be 4 before Gatsby is introduced to the group, which soon leads to the problem.

At the end of the novel, the group breaks apart (Nick and Jordan and Gatsby) while Daisy and Tom still stay together. Nick then talks about how selfish they are.

I'm not so sure though. Just my thoughts.

[blazeofglory]

In fact I have started reading this novel thinking or reading somewhere that it is one of the great books,and I could not resist the temptation of reading a great book. However the book could not engage me the way it should. Of course another book that was more acclaimed to be great was Ulysses and of course it is a great book by all standards, yet it too was incomprehensible to me.

At times I buy a great book, a classic but they mostly belong to the rack of books, for after leafing through a few pages I do not like to continue. This book comes to that category.

[decode5683]

Well, for such a short title, The Great Gatsby can be interpreted in a couple of different ways. Fitzgerald might just be being ironic or is Gatsby’s ‘greatness’ what the book is really all about then? I would go with the ironic option. Gatsby’s life is a sham. Inspite of the glamour and fortune, he made his way to the top of the social heap through illegal means. And to the upper class that he aspires to, he is a phony. When the truth comes out, people show their true colors and his greatness is exposed. Of course, there are several other ways of interpreting the title.
Actually I would arggue that the emphasizing of "great" in the title could just be the sympathetic admiration Nick as the narrator shows for Gatsby. True, Gatsby's mean of aquiring wealth is not the most moral, however throughout the novel, he is also the only character true to his feelings. His dedication to Daisy is the main motivation to attaining wealth and status, and sadly also the cause of his death. I think it is this admiration for his love that wins him the title of 'Great'.

[Zimmer]

The number three is also a recurring number in the Great Gatsby.
-Nick receives a telegram from Henry Gatz three days after Gatsby's death.(167)
-The funeral was originally arranged for three o'clock in the afternoon. (170)
-Nick tries to call Wolfsheim three times after Gatsby died.(165)
-Wilson goes insane at three o'clock in the morning. (157)
-When Gatsby is young he resolves to save three dollars a week, instead of five. (174)
-The minister arrives for Gatsby's funeral around three. (175)
-Three cars in the funeral procession. (175)
-Pammy is three years old. (10)
-Nick served in the Third Division. (47)
-A band plays Three O'Clock in the Morning at one of Gatsby's parties. (110)
-Nick comes from three generations of "well-to-do people." (2)
-Nick left Gatsby's party around three in the morning. (53)
-Three people on horseback. (102)
-A limousine passed Nick and Gatsby with three "modish negroes" in it. (69)
-Nick met Owl Eyes three months before Gatsby's funeral. (175)
-Nick ate with Daisy, Tom, and Jordan three months before Myrtle's death. (146)
-Nick emphasizes three important nights. (56)
-Nick asked (two or) three people who Gatsby was. (42)
-Nick sits at a table with (two women and) three men. (43)

I'm sure there are several more that I'm missing, but these are the only ones that jumped out at me. Why is three so important? And I noticed that three is often paired with either two or five as well, why is that? Any suggestions?
I wish Fitzgerald was still alive...I would love to ask him.