Did God create evil? [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

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RG57

11-05-2008, 12:51 PM

Those of us who are Christians believe that God created everything.
If that is so did He create evil?
If so, to what purpose?
Or was it something that just happened?

I have to admit I am not sure

El Viejo

11-05-2008, 01:14 PM

Those of us who are Christians believe that God created everything.
If that is so did He create evil?
If so, to what purpose?
Or was it something that just happened?

I have to admit I am not sure

Ancient question. In some ways it's like 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' or 'can God make a stone so heavy that he can't lift it?'

What do you think?

togre

11-05-2008, 02:10 PM

What is evil? Is it a quantitative thing? Or is it a lack (of holiness or righteousness or goodness)?

If you want to use anything more certain than your own opinion (El Viejo, I assume, is comfortable with making El Viejo the supreme arbiter of truth, but I recall RG57 acknowledging Scripture as authoritative--that is the position I hold), Scripture clearly says God did all the "creating" that ever happened. It also says that God is holy and the source of all goodness and only goodness and that the universe was unblemished when he completed it.

It therefore seems clear that evil isn't a substance but rather a lack. The Fall didn't create evil, but destroyed perfection.

Now, insofar as God remains Almighty, he permitted evil to occur, but not in a causative manner. In a similar way God is "responsible" for a murder, because he sustains the laws of nature that cause gun powder to explode and blood loss and trauma to stop the heart and mind, yet in such a case God is not morally responsible but rather the one who pulled the trigger is. The whole interplay between foreknowledge, omnipotence and free will is not solved by simply blaming God. If you want proof of God being holy and good, look at the cross where he willing suffered to repair what He did not damage and save those whom he created without need for saving.

Joreads

11-05-2008, 05:53 PM

I think God created man and man created evil.

El Viejo

11-05-2008, 10:41 PM

...El Viejo, I assume, is comfortable with making El Viejo the supreme arbiter of truth...

Hardly. I do question authorities, however, and I do keep my own counsel. I'm a slow learner, but after willingly subjecting myself to twelve years of Catholic schooling, and another decade under various evangelical pastors, both formal and self-styled, I eventually got to that point.

If I remember right, I asked RG57 an honest question. I don't recall making any sort of pronouncement.

romantic novel

11-06-2008, 06:21 AM

blp

11-06-2008, 07:43 AM

Yeah, I believe that God has created both goodness and evil...

Im Muslim, and in Isalmic point of view..i think as most other reliogions.

God has created evil for a purpose..so God can differentiate between a good person and a bad one..

which one can resist tempetations and follow God's orders

The logic here appears very circular. If there was no evil, there would be no bad people, so God wouldn't need a way of being able to identify them. Also, why would God need people to resist temptation and follow orders if there was no evil that could result from failure to do these things?

One way to understand evil in a religious context is to see it as deviation from the divine mechanism of reality. Imagine God set the world and the universe going like a gigantic, complex clock works. Its complexity is such that we are free to the extent that many actions are in accordance with the overall workings of the mechanism. However, certain actions are not and these are evil.

Still some problems with that one. Are we expected to know which actions are right and wrong from the get go? The complexities of theological questions such as this are enough in themselves to render the idea absurd.

Another way to look at it is to say, God has to allow us to be free, to do wrong as well as right, in order that we can come to know him. Love and knowledge of the divine has to be arrived at through the freedom to choose or it means nothing. This idea largely works for me, though I'm not a believer.

romantic novel

11-06-2008, 11:16 AM

The logic here appears very circular. If there was no evil, there would be no bad people, so God wouldn't need a way of being able to identify them. Also, why would God need people to resist temptation and follow orders if there was no evil that could result from failure to do these things?

If God has not created Evil..there will be no challenge to win his Love, Careness...though God loves us all whatever we do.

Still, the existence of evil is the very bottom line that creates a meaning of this life.

If there was no evil..and we all behave as we like cause we are all good..then what challenge we can do? what goal we are seek??

As in a family..parents love all their children but the child who obey his parent's order and instructions weather he like it or not will gain their love more.

I believe this is the same ..God loves us all
But he creates evil to put a goal to us to seek..to seek his love more..to be near him..so to avoid this evil we can achieve this

This is what I believe

El Viejo

11-06-2008, 11:42 AM

Assuming there is a God, and assuming He's the one depicted in the Bible, His creating evil is certainly within the bounds of belief.

There's a legal concept called the 'attractive nuisance.' If you have, say, a trampoline in your yard, or a swimming pool, and someone finds their way into your yard and is injured or killed using the pool/trampoline, you can be held responsible.

Using this peculiar logic, God could be said to have invented evil by putting Adam and Eve in a garden with the tree of knowledge, although technically it was Adam and Eve who did so by transgressing.

On the other hand, since the knowledge the tree held was the knowledge of good and evil, we can suppose that evil was already in existence. Assuming that everything that had been created was created in that eventful week, then God must have made it.

Answering 'why?' takes us into the uncomfortable area where we may see God as possibly malicious.

billyjack

11-06-2008, 12:02 PM

dzebra

11-06-2008, 01:17 PM

There's a legal concept called the 'attractive nuisance.' If you have, say, a trampoline in your yard, or a swimming pool, and someone finds their way into your yard and is injured or killed using the pool/trampoline, you can be held responsible.

Although that's legally true, I know that if I go jump on that trampoline, it's my own fault... especially if I was told, "Don't jump on that, it's broken." (you may eat of any fruit except that one)

togre

11-06-2008, 04:04 PM

Why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil/why did he forbid eating from it?

First, the eating was a transgression, only because it was forbidden. It's not like the fruit contained Vitamin C, fiber and, oh yes--evil! No evil was not a substance of the fruit that passed to Adam and Eve. Therefore the tree is not evil and God cannot said to have created evil solely because he created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Still, the question: Why did God forbid eating from it?

I have heard that Martin Luther (okay, this isn't as certain as the Bible, but bears consideration) suggest that it was an altar upon which Adam and Eve could worship the Lord. Think about it. The earth was perfect. They were perfect and holy. Everything that God desired them to do was good and natural and exactly what they would do if they had no command. [This is based on the biblical concept that what God declares as good is actually good. For example he gives wine/alcohol but instructs us how to use that gift (in moderation). If we ignore that advice/command we find out that too much wine=splitting headache or poor judgments. I can expand this point if it is desired.] With doing everything that God desired so naturally, God gave a semi-arbitrary command--he asked them not to do something (eat fruit from a tree) that wasn't inherently wrong or off limits. Therefore every time Adam and Eve did not eat from the tree they did so from only one reason--their love for God. This would have been a fitting act of worship.

El Viejo--forgive me. Based on a sketchy recollection of your posts on other topics I recalled that you seemed to pick and chose from various schools of thought or religions but followed none. If this is inaccurate I owe you a double apology. If it is accurate, the gist of my statements stands, and yet the manner of my saying it was neither kind or respectful. Again, please forgive me. The thing we all can agree on is that sin/evil has entered the world. Evil/sin dwells in me. I am forgiven by God through Jesus(though I do not deserve it) yet my struggle to live in a way pleasing to him does not proceed with unmingled results.

RG57

11-06-2008, 05:40 PM

I believe that God did indeed create all things spritual, physical and and any other form existance, be it thought or action. If God did not create the actions and concepts of evil, somewhere along the line He must have had an indirect hand in it via another of His creations.
In Genesis we are told that Eve was tempted by the serpant who was supposed to be Satan, and I think that you will agree that God must have least created Satan and therefore indirectly evil/sin and in the long term made a rod for his own back. I believe the story goes that Satan was a fallen angel, which means he gave His angels free will and then come back to the thought that either directly or indrectly God created evil.
perhaps He thought free choice was a good idea, after all He created man in His own image and may have thought that being man was His creation and in His image they behave exactly as He did?
My mind is still partially open on the question but I think that after reading the above posts I'm heading for the idea that God had a hand in creating evil.

librarius_qui

11-06-2008, 06:05 PM

Those of us who are Christians believe that God created everything.
If that is so did He create evil?
If so, to what purpose?
Or was it something that just happened?

I have to admit I am not sure

The god I serve did not create evil.

He created people (including invisible people).

Some people chose to rise against him.

This god is believed to be good. So, if someone rises against good, this person becomes ... evil. The first one who did that became so. This is the part of the story I don't know. (Nor is it for me to.)

The Author

11-06-2008, 07:11 PM

First, I must state that I am not a religious person: that is I do not follow a set of arbitrary rules set down by some organized church. I am not an atheist; I am an agnostic. That means I am a person who claims that I cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but I do not deny that God might exist).

If we stand on the biblical interpretation of 'evil' as 'that which goes against God's laws,' we must ask ourselves some very serious questions. The first of these is; Is my belief in God, MY belief or one that was implanted in me by parents, ministers or churches? The next questions are based on the first; If I believe in God, then what do I believe about him? And, finally, are the rules I follow God's laws or man's laws? What is 'Faith' and where can I get it? These questions confound most people who try to define their 'faith'.

Most religious people use the phrase, "Faith is what the bible says..." (Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13)). The word 'persuasion' implies that there are empirical proofs to support the statement. (i.e., Inducement by argument or reasoning or entreaty.)

Well that, I am sorry to say, is not faith. That is relying on an artifact to 'prove' that there is a God. Faith can be defined as 'A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.' The operative word here is belief. But, how does this relate to the question; Did God Create Evil? Well, let me take you through the logic; God created all things (thing is defined as 'A separate and self-contained entity'). No where in any of the religious writings that I have read does it say that God limited man's ability to think, and only a thinking being can create evil. Hmmm. That seems to allow that God, a thinking being, could have created evil. But here we are faced with a dichotomy of Religion: The bible says 'God is Absolute Good' but, God allows 'Satan' to roam the world and tempt man into sin (from the book of Job), and that man is free to choose sin if he wishes. But therein lays the lie; if God is all Good, then he cannot tolerate Bad/Evil in any form. So either God is part bad or the bible is in error. This is where faith must override religion; faith says 'God is good. Period, end of report.' Religion says "God is good but allows evil/Satan to test man.'

From the time that man first started codifying his religious beliefs, he instilled his own outlook on those tenets. And, of course, had to find a way to blame someone else for his failings. The minute that man began to put his own interpretation on these tenets they no longer reflected faith. They were now a religion. It must be noted that the very word 'religion' has its roots in the Latin word 'regulus' which means 'rules.' No religion relies on faith; they all rely on rules. These rules are written and edited by men. I can hear many people saying, 'The bible was written by the finger of God!' My answer? 'Show me his fingerprints.' That would be empirical proof that would stand the test of trial.

No, God did not create evil, man did. Man decided that he was the sole interpreter of God's words and then he set about creating specific laws that must be obeyed under punishment of hellfire and damnation. Poppycock! If the really faithful would look into the one place that the religions demand that they do not look, their own hearts, they would find that they knew the difference between good and evil from the time they first began to talk and reason.

We have all heard that man is 'born in sin and lives in sin' and we also hear that the only way for him to get into a state of grace is to attend this church or that church. Again, Poppycock. If you think about it, you will find that even when you do something wrong (sinful)... you know that it is wrong. You make a concious decision to do it. The only thing that the organized religions give you is a way to disclaim responsibility for your actions by saying, "The devil made me do it." Or better yet, "The Devil made me do it, but I have been washed inthe blood of the lamb of God, and now I am not responsible for that action." God did not make evil, the devil did not force evil onto man. And the Devil DID NOT make them do it. Man decided to do evil things and then spent the remainder of his time blaming everyone one else for his own weakness.

I will state here and now, I have done things in my life that I wish that I had not done, but I blame no one but myself for my behavior -- NO ONE MADE ME DO THEM, I DID THEM MYSELF.

Even the question 'Did God Create Evil?' is a form of looking for someone to blame for our own behavior. WE, mankind, brought evil into the world. Not some superntural being like a God or a Devil. Mankind did it. And now we seek to blame others for our behavior. If you really believe in the collected works that people call the bible, try reading Genesis very carefully. You will find a categoric list of all the things that 'God created' and there is no mention of Man's thoughts. Good or Evil. Nor is there a suggestion that God controls all of our actions; according to the bible he gave mankind freewill. (The relating of the tale of the Tree of Knowledge drives home the point that man chose to 'eat of the forbidden fruit.' Of course Adam immediately blamed Eve for that.) That freewill means that WE and we alone are responsible for our actions; good or evil. So, in the last analysis we find that, like boy who shot cockrobin, we are responsible for where our arrows go. It might be a good idea for all of us to look into our hearts and see if maybe, just maybe, the devil didn't make us do it.

I expect that there are many readers of this that will feel that I have cast aspersions on their religious beliefs; that was the farthest thing from my mind. I stated very clearly that I am not a religious person. But, I was raised in a very religious household. For generations my primogenitors followed the rules of the Roman Catholic Church. I was baptised, made my first communion, and my confirmation in the Roman Catholic Church. I even studied for the priesthood. Then I began to read, and really study what I was being fed and I found that there were thousands of Rules, but little faith involved in organized religions. So, I began to question even the existance of God. I found that while I could discover no way to empirically prove that there is a God, neither could I find anyway to empirically prove that there was not one. So, I sat down and really looked deep into myself and found that with out empirical proof; I believed there was a God. I had nothing to base this decision on -- no facts or artifacts -- just my faith. So, if you wish to accuse me of being anti-religious, first you must prove to me that your religion is the ONLY religion that could possibly be faithful. No theologian has EVER been able to do that. They all revert in the end to the simple statement, "It's a matter of Faith."

One last comment: I will not force my faith on you, and I hope that you will not force your religion on me. Believe as you wish, and so will I. Freewill.

librarius_qui

11-06-2008, 08:29 PM

It must be noted that the very word 'religion' has its roots in the Latin word 'regulus' which means 'rules.'

Actually no. Religion comes from re-ligo. It has nothing to do with the word reg-; it's re- + lig-.~

librarius_qui

11-06-2008, 08:33 PM

We have all heard that man is born in sin and lives in sin and the only way for him to get into a state of grace is to attend this church or that church.

Where did you hear that from??? :eek: Children have no sin! At all! (According to the christ ... :D )

I expect that there are many readers of this that will feel that I have cast aspersions on their religious beliefs; that was the farthest thing from my mind. I stated very clearly that I am not a religious person. But, I was raised in a very religious household. For generations my primogenitors followed the rules of the Roman Catholic Church.

Ah, here's the answer to my question. Catholic doctrine does teach so ...

islandclimber

11-06-2008, 10:56 PM

theodicy again... lol... I think this has come up quite a few times in this section..

you should read St Augustine's "Confessions".. he has an interesting solution to the problem of evil.. and I really don't feel like typing it out here.. but it suggests evil is just the absence of good, or something that has less good in it then something else.. there is no separate entity or thing called evil... Augustine goes a lot deeper than this, it is quite interesting.. but just look up the theodicy question, you will find an infinite number of solutions to the problem and numerous people tearing each solution down after.. lol..

NikolaiI

11-06-2008, 11:39 PM

hoope

11-07-2008, 09:57 AM

No .. God didn't creat Evil.. its impossible.
Evil is just the absence of Good.
God created everything that is good .. everything that benefits the human
and we chose the evilness.. just because some people chose it.
If anyone claims that God created evil that means that God wants it ; which is not true.

planet earth

11-07-2008, 10:23 AM

Bism Allah the Merciant the Merciful

I believe in Allah the One and Only, He has no partners, He is the Owner and Possessor of the Whole whole cosmos.

Allah created Life and death to test which of us is the best of doers. This sentence is a verse from the Muslim Holy Scripture The Quran.

Life and death are the most two extremes in the Universe and hence any other opposites are also the creation of Allah.

One other Muslim belief and a saying of Allah but not in the Quran, but in the reported speech carried by his messenger sin and evil are not the same. Someone good can commmit a sin due the imperfection of human beings and Allah said, if mankind did not sin, he would have took them away and created others that would sin, to come back to him, when they recognize him.

Evil, is represented through satan, and Allah created Satan. It is true that he was not evil from the beginning but he commited a sin that led to evil, which is pride. It was when he refused to submit to his creator, that he became evil.
Lots of actions of sin not followed by repenting lead to evil.

Goodness is the rule, and is mentioned around 214 times in the Quran while while evil is mentioned 30 times only. Allah Himself is gooness and who does an atom weight of good finds it, while who does an atom weight of evil finds it. Repenting turns evil to good again.

I want to add somehting THe presence of Allah is evident all around

Wherever you look, there you will He find
Use your heart’s eye and don’t be blind
Know Him to love Him and not to suspect Him with your mind
With choice he honoured you and called you man-kind
If you don’t find him in everything, know you are a way behind

I really wish this is of benefit. Allah deserves to be loved, because he loves us so much.

librarius_qui

11-07-2008, 11:47 AM

hoope

11-07-2008, 11:48 AM

hi guys ..
well.. i was rethinking about what i said ..
and i would like to correct my answer..
YES .. GGod created Evil.. just like how He created everything in this earth..
He created Evil, hell, Devil.. but there is one line i have to add which is :
that " There is a wise reason behind all this.. "
and that is to test us to see what we chose and how we react to it..

I am sure am right :-)

Redzeppelin

11-07-2008, 02:43 PM

romantic novel

11-07-2008, 02:45 PM

islandclimber

11-07-2008, 04:09 PM

This time hoope..You ar really right..at least to me..100% :)

This exactly what I beileve too

for that to be right requires a huge amount of faith in something that there is not one shred of evidence for..

why, if god is omniscient, omnipotent, and all good would he create a world that is not all good? because, even if we are created ex nihilo, we are still made by god, and through god, so if god does not have evil as a inherent part of it, well than how did evil come to be? god created it, so the idea of evil was there inside this infinitely good god?? that doesn't make sense...

the only answers are: that evil doesn't actually exist as a separate entity (therefore evil is just an absence of good to varying degrees), or that god is not all good, or that we just can't understand god (which admits that god is part evil in human defined terms, but that this is irrelevant as we don't know what is good, because we can't know the mind of god)... but neither of these will satisfy organized religion lol... so herein lies the problem..

also there is the problem that if any theodicy actually works.. well this is pulled off wikipedia as I don't feel like using energy to explain this...

An argument that has been raised against theodicies is that, if a theodicy were true, it would completely nullify morality. If a theodicy were true, then all evil events, including human actions, can be somehow rationalized as permitted or affected by God, and therefore there can no longer be such a thing as "evil" values, even for a murderer (indeed, this is the basis of the moral argument from evil, by Dean Stretton).

Volker Dittman argues that "the crucial point is, that when we accept the perfect solution for the POE, than there will be no evil, because every suffering could be justified. Worse: It would be impossible to act evil. I could torture and murder a young child, but this would be justified for a higher good (whatever the perfect solution is, it could be something else than free will). This would be the end of all moral, which clearly is absurd. The theist could not point to the ten commandments and claim that they are necessary, because one goal of morals – to prevent evil – would be granted no matter how I behave, if he is right with his perfect solution to the POE

this illustrates the problem with the below argument, which is part of the free will argument for evil by Augustine and others... so if this true than all evil acts are justified in my opinion and work towards the greater good, which was allowing man free will..

Evil, we can say exits only in good things. The reality of evil is not that of what is; it is that of what is not (negation), or rather more exactly, of what is not when it ought to be (privation). Evil is not a being; it is a hole in being, a lack

for as is suggested

Permitting evil, as He does, within a design (creation) that is essentially good, exerting his causality only in what is positive in this design, God applies himself, when evil occurs, to preserve and enhance the value of the good that still remains.

St. Augustine in dealing with the question of evil and free will pointed out that “God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist” (St. Aug., Enchirid., xxvii). Evil contributes to the perfection of the universe, as shadows to the perfection of a picture, or harmony to that of music (De Civ. Dei,xi). As darkness is nothing but the absence of light, and is not produced by creation, so evil is merely the defect of goodness. (St. Aug., In Gen. as lit.) Further St. Augustine, holding evil to be permitted for the punishment of the wicked and the trial of the good, shows that it has, under this aspect, the nature of good, and is pleasing to God, not because of what it is, but because of where it is; i.e. as the penal and just consequence of sin (De Civ. Dei, XI, xii, De Vera Relig. xliv).

In other words as Augustine seems to imply the question of evil can clearly be seen as another sign of God’s omnipotence as it shows that He is capable of allowing evil while Himself remaining independent from it; and in His infinite wisdom foreseeing the greater good which is to result from it.

the idea that a perfect and infinitely good and omniscient and omnipotent god punishes for evil acts that this god choses to allow to happen, chose to create creatures that this god knew would chose to perform these acts, as god is omniscient (so arguing otherwise is absurd lol), well that suggests god is evil in another way, creating humans so that they can be damned and punished for actions that this god knew would occur... if god is testing us, well that suggests this infinite god is quite insecure, which should not be possible.. why does god who is perfect in every way need praise bestowed, need to test what he/she/it created? why does god damn people to hell for following a nature that god created them with? this gets into the free will argument as well, for god necessarily knows our actions before we do, or maybe at the same time as we do.. see if god is omniscient which every monotheistic religion suggests, well he knows everything and can forsee our choices and actions, but this eliminates free will, or does it? one argument for free will with an omniscient god, is that just because god knows what we will chose to do, we still chose it... god didn't force us.. another suggests that because god is outside of time, everything for god is one singular moment, with no spatial and temporal definitions, therefore god being Omniscient doesn't mean anything with regard to free will in a finite and temporal world... but regardless, for evil to exist even as just a lack of good, it requires god to permit it for the greater good, and therefore it invalidates all morals in my opinion... and if any action contributes to some greater plan, to the greater good, why is it punished?

anyways, check out the wikipedia link Theodicy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy) if you want to study the theodicy question it is a good place to start from, you can branch out to more reliable sources from there, although the wikipedia article is pretty good.. There are too many just personal opinions flying around here without any relevance to the actual issue... if you have an answer to the problem of evil, please explain how it works, lol... because no one has come with a universally satisfactory answer in the history of humanity, so if you can I would be very interested in reading it... and even if it isn't satisfactory I would be interested anyways as the question is quite fascinating to ponder... I studied the theodicy question in a few different classes in university, even ended up participating in a directed study on it for fun after I left school..

rima

11-07-2008, 05:12 PM

Is there really a DEVIL?

What did your CHILDHOOD look like?
Can you remember the earliest Days in your Surroundings
Did you play with your Schoolmates? Or maybe you was alone.

My Childhood Was a Big Fairy Tale-Rich of Play,Imagination,Full of Laughters
I Wasn't Born like a Child Bringing HATE in myself.

Unfortunately the Hate that Somebody was born with Finally define our FATE
The Secret Question and the Answer give us a HORRIBLE TRUTH-There is
NO HELP

Everybody Draws the SIGN belongs to.

One Question came out :Can we really to Recognize EVIL?
Maybe EVIL is present too much all around.

Maybe,since Relationship with DEVIL is Hidden, it make we feel Confused, and
again a terrible TRUTH EVIL possess ATTRACTION.

I think no SALVATION for Nobody-the little Particles ,emitted by our Bodies ,
works without our Control.

This is my Abstract written a couple months ago and reflect some my thoughts
about Evil.
If we look for answer in physics ,there are particles bear positive and negative energy.Spirit contain energy as well and since a Life organism radiate more powerful energy it is possible to create Evil.

Thank you

billyjack

11-07-2008, 09:19 PM

What God creates, reflects His character. God's character - as the Bible describes it - is good; He is described as perfect justice, mercy, love, compassion, judgment, etc. God desires to give and receive love - but love can only exist where the choice between two plausible alternatives exist. If I have no choice but to love, then we cannot correctly call that "love." Love must the result of a choice. As such, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a testament to God's love for us: He desired that we love Him, but for that to be so, we had to have a viable alternative to choose to not love Him back - and that required that God provide the choice (here in the form of the tree).

Unfortunately, the free will required for love also carries inside it the risk of not choosing God - which is disasterous; if God is Life (He is), then choosing to refuse His love is choosing Death. Evil came from the choice to disobey. Many theologians point out that God left creation unfinished and invited humanity (via their creative and procreative abilities) to continue the job. We, unfortunately, created something terrible.

hello there zep

nice post. i notice you use some logic to make your point, and a good job of it i must admit. yet, your reasoning is based on a proposition that i find impossible to say whether its true or false, ie...god's character is good bc the bible tells me so. shouldn't profound issues such as good vs evil and god's character have their foundations based in the present day god/good/evil rather than 2000 year old references to said issues? i'm assuming its the same god today as it was back in bible times. so why not bring forth some syllogisms with logic rooted in the present day?

Morad

11-07-2008, 09:43 PM

Allah (God as you call Him) created everything. He made it clear when he explained in the Holy Qur'an that everyone is responsible for what they do. So He gave us the clues to differentiate between what is right and what is wrong. Consequently, we are free to be good and to be evil. It's something we control.

El Viejo

11-08-2008, 02:28 AM

that's a splendid reference to the "attractive nuisance" when talking of the tree of knowledge. god would have put a fence around the tree if he didnt want to be held liable. thereby, he must have wanted responsibility for good and evil

Or maybe He just forgot to put the fence up. Or maybe the concept of 'attractive nuisance' is part of the evil that's been introduced to the world.

Although that's legally true, I know that if I go jump on that trampoline, it's my own fault... especially if I was told, "Don't jump on that, it's broken." (you may eat of any fruit except that one)

You know this, and I know this, but what we know ain't always so.

Why did God create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil/why did he forbid eating from it?

First, the eating was a transgression, only because it was forbidden. It's not like the fruit contained Vitamin C, fiber and, oh yes--evil! No evil was not a substance of the fruit that passed to Adam and Eve. Therefore the tree is not evil and God cannot said to have created evil solely because he created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Agreed. The act, the transgression, was evil and it's reasonable to say that 'The tree of knowledge of good and evil' might not be literal in its meaning. But much has been made of the 'days' in Geneis, with different experts asserting that they were 'ages' or twenty-four hour days marked by evening and morning. We can't rule out that the writer was saying that evil was indeed a property of the fruit.

Still, the question: Why did God forbid eating from it?

I have heard that Martin Luther (okay, this isn't as certain as the Bible, but bears consideration) suggest that it was an altar upon which Adam and Eve could worship the Lord. Think about it. The earth was perfect. They were perfect and holy. Everything that God desired them to do was good and natural and exactly what they would do if they had no command. [This is based on the biblical concept that what God declares as good is actually good. For example he gives wine/alcohol but instructs us how to use that gift (in moderation). If we ignore that advice/command we find out that too much wine=splitting headache or poor judgments. I can expand this point if it is desired.] With doing everything that God desired so naturally, God gave a semi-arbitrary command--he asked them not to do something (eat fruit from a tree) that wasn't inherently wrong or off limits. Therefore every time Adam and Eve did not eat from the tree they did so from only one reason--their love for God. This would have been a fitting act of worship.

Wonderful story about the altar, but I've developed a problem with exegesis. There is no sure way to know when the 'drawing out' has gone too far. Parables and scripture have useful meaning within certain limits, outside of which the meaning is at the mercy of the interpreter.

El Viejo--forgive me. Based on a sketchy recollection of your posts on other topics I recalled that you seemed to pick and chose from various schools of thought or religions but followed none. If this is inaccurate I owe you a double apology. If it is accurate, the gist of my statements stands, and yet the manner of my saying it was neither kind or respectful. Again, please forgive me. The thing we all can agree on is that sin/evil has entered the world. Evil/sin dwells in me. I am forgiven by God through Jesus(though I do not deserve it) yet my struggle to live in a way pleasing to him does not proceed with unmingled results.

Forgiveness is not required, I do pick and choose.

Schools of thought, like parables and scripture, have their limits. Some scripture is gold, and some is not. I think scripture should assume its rightful place, alongside the concept of four elements, as a milestone in our search to understand ourselves and the universe. We need to move on, but not via extension.

You speak of sin in you. I call it adaptability. Jesus went to the slaughter, but also cleared the temple.

Redzeppelin

11-09-2008, 11:48 PM

hello there zep

nice post. i notice you use some logic to make your point, and a good job of it i must admit.

Thank you, kind sir. I think you are the first person here to accuse me of using logic.

yet, your reasoning is based on a proposition that i find impossible to say whether its true or false, ie...god's character is good bc the bible tells me so. shouldn't profound issues such as good vs evil and god's character have their foundations based in the present day god/good/evil rather than 2000 year old references to said issues? i'm assuming its the same god today as it was back in bible times. so why not bring forth some syllogisms with logic rooted in the present day?

The Bible is our only guide to the character of God - it is the only book that asserts to describe who God is by telling the history of His chosen people and the revelation of His character through Jesus Christ. If we are to make sense of good and evil, we must put those ideas through the filter of God's character - and without the Bible, God's character becomes victim to our impressions (or worse, our desires) of Him. That leads to chaos. There must be a foundational "ground" to the identity of God, something objective in nature - otherwise, discussions of the character of God becomes meaningless.

Pendragon

11-10-2008, 07:53 AM

Prov.16

1. [4] The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

There seems to be some purpose that evil will be required to do before the end of all things...

God bless

Pen

RG57

11-10-2008, 09:33 AM

Missed that one, nice quote.

blazeofglory

11-10-2008, 10:39 AM

God, evil or devil and man all are part of the cosmic system, and no can remain out of the system.

Man suffers limitations in point of fact, and he can not escape it.

What we call God is the creation of man's thought.

I do not mean there is no God, and there can be some God or no God we can not comprehend beyond the range of our thinking capacity, and we are circumscribed by a periphery of our mind and capacity.

But all of us want to know our origin and afterlives.
We are not satisfied with the scientific explanations we have and we want to know something unknowable, ordinarily unthinkable.

God, heaven, hell, the devil and the like fascinate us and we therefore are romanticized to know all these mysteries.

In fact both God and Devil birth from our existence. If we do exist the rest exist.

Redzeppelin

11-10-2008, 11:48 AM

God, evil or devil and man all are part of the cosmic system, and no can remain out of the system.

The Creator of a system cannot be a part of that system. The creator of a computer is not part of the computer; God created the cosmic system - He cannot logically be a part of it.

What we call God is the creation of man's thought.

That is the cart before the horse. God provided us with the ability to think. Since we're capable of "arguing God out of existence," we tend to think that we are the sole arbiters of what is real and what is not. One must possess exhaustive knowledge of the universe and its contents in order to rule out the existence of God.

In fact both God and Devil birth from our existence. If we do exist the rest exist.

There is no reason for earthbound, terrestial creatures to dream up such entities. The fact that we can conceive of such entities suggests that they indeed exist - just as hunger suggests that I was created to eat food.

Pendragon

11-11-2008, 11:16 AM

RG57

11-11-2008, 11:36 AM

While I firmly believe in both God and the Devil and preach from the Bible, I would like to pose this question:

If everything is the creation of man, who then created man? An organisim as complex as humanity just didn't happen by chance, the odds are too great.

And if everything then is illusion, is it illusion that I live and am typing this note to you?

God bless

Pendragon

Very cleverly put, it took a few reads to get it right in my head, I think it is a question that has been asked since man has been able to reason. Those without God will always ask and those with God has no need.

As for illusion, well if everything is illusion then this is biggest mass illusion known to man (or the illusion of him):).

Bitterfly

11-11-2008, 12:44 PM

There is no reason for earthbound, terrestial creatures to dream up such entities. The fact that we can conceive of such entities suggests that they indeed exist - just as hunger suggests that I was created to eat food.

That's no argument, as you probably know: I can imagine a chimaera, but that doesn't mean one actually exists. I'm rather pleased that all the monsters I used to imagine aren't real! :D

I went to look up Freud since the last time I came onto the religion pages, and he seems to classifies the religious phenomenon as an illusion, something dreamt up by man in order to reconcile himself with the ideas of death, deprivation or danger. God the Father, in monotheistic religions, is a projection of our need to have protection and meaning. I don't always agree with Freud, but here he does seem to have a point...

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

There seems to be some purpose that evil will be required to do before the end of all things...

Nice quote, but it could very well point to the need to understand - without really understanding, since God's ways are unpenetrable - the existence of evil which, if you're logical, seems to contradict the reality of a benevolent God. It's a little too easy to say that God created evil, and that we just don't understand why.

Pendragon

11-11-2008, 05:19 PM

There is no reason for earthbound, terrestial creatures to dream up such entities. The fact that we can conceive of such entities suggests that they indeed exist - just as hunger suggests that I was created to eat food.
Now Red, you are a dear friend and brother, yet I am going to have to call you on this argument. Many might call the urge to eat "instinct", after all even microbes feed. The human body requires so much sustanence to survive, of various types. We could take it in supplments, but that would not savor the palete would it? This is a poor argument all the way around.

Man dreams up much that could never exist, much less those that do not exist. I believe God's existing is because of what the world is and contains, I cannot accept chance as a basis of creation of all this complexity.

God Bless

Pen

March Hare

11-11-2008, 11:52 PM

Some individually numbered thoughts.

1. If God created Man and Man created Evil then God must have imbued Man with the capacity for evil. Therefore God has the capacity for evil.
Question. Does the capacity for Evil make God less than perfect?
2. God created. Evil and Good are simply constructs of the human mind.
3. God either allows Evil, proving Himself inbenevolent or cannot contain Evil, proving Himself unomnipotent. [spellchecker says that 'inbenevolent' and 'unomnipotent' aren't words, but I like 'em.] Many years ago I read John Hick. This may have been an argument of his.

Rozzy

11-12-2008, 02:35 PM

Those of us who are Christians believe that God created everything.
If that is so did He create evil?
If so, to what purpose?
Or was it something that just happened?

I have to admit I am not sure

I did not go and read all the previous posts so I hope I am duplicating a previous one here.

In some ancient Jewish thought and texts it is explained something like this.

God being infinite is all in all everywhere so in order for him to create the space and world we now live in He actually had to withdraw his presence from an area that He already existed in. When He withdrew himself from that given area He left a void that now was open to chaos, that made it possible for evil to exist where it had not been possible to exist before. Though evil does not exist in God or with God the possibilty of evil outside of Him does exist.

Rozzy

1n50mn14

11-12-2008, 02:46 PM

You can run yourself in circles over this question for a lifetime and more, and still never come up with a definitive answer, because there are holes and paradoxes in every possible answer.

What do >you< believe in: a compassionate God, or a vengeful God?

RG57

11-12-2008, 09:38 PM

M. Caldwell

11-13-2008, 02:02 AM

I think this question hinges entirely on the God Hypothesis. Since I refute God, I refute its capacity for the creation of evil. Meh.

JBI

11-13-2008, 02:34 AM

The Book of Job is there to justify no matter what happens in the world as "part of the plan". a rather convenient thing for a religion which preaches the goodness of god to have. It basically says, whatever happens, it is for the "Greater good" in a sort of Panglossian moronishness. The truth is, the evil is a contradiction - how can someone so "good" have made something so evil, as this world is. Don't say "free will", because, if god is all-knowing, he would have known creating "free will" (which doesn't logically make sense) would have evil implications. Thereby, if you suffer, he wants you to suffer. If your loved ones die, he wants them to die. If you have nothing left, and wish yourself dead, he wants you to feel that way. If you are tortured, and undergoing unknowable pain, he wants you to suffer. Etc. Etc.

planet earth

11-13-2008, 07:29 AM

Personally for me a compassionate God, but again a question like this will a great many answers.

Looking at the Old Testament many will say that God was full of wrath and quick on the vengence. But in the New Testament God appears to have changed, he is loving and compassionate to the point of sacrificing His own Son.

It is easy see why a lot of people are unable to connect both the Old and New Testaments with the same God.

Well Allah actually stated that his compassion has surpassed his wrath. I have read the old Testament, the New Testament and the Quran. The three Holy scriptures are from the same source; Allah. His statments about His oneness, mercy and actions did not change. Allah is constant He does not change. He already comprises All the attributes of perfection. many of them are of Beauty and others are only to warn his worshippers through.

Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving, Concealing, Compassionate, Mercy and Love, and on the other hand he manages to take venegance from those who do wrong.

If this Universe is a kingdom, then He is the king. Just like a kingdom cannot be a kingdom without a King, the universe cannot be a universe without Allah. Just as the Kingdom would fail to be a kingdom with more than one king the universe would fail to be a kingdom with more than one king. The matter is a Kingdom not a kingsdom. A kingdom, with one omnscient Powerful Creator, works right. What we see might be evil in out view point is positively what he sees and finds right in his point of view. It is the mere submission to his will and wish that makes one see the good doings of Allah. Whatever he does is good and is mercy even if it appeared the opposite.

I do testify that I worship The KING. I believe in his presence and I love his actions whatever they are, and however they appear.

RG57

11-13-2008, 08:44 PM

planet earth - May God always be praised from the heart in all situations of life and I believe that you do!

planet earth

11-14-2008, 12:54 AM

Thank you for your reply.

I know you do believe and I do as well "Al Hamd Lillah", Praised be Him. It was just his constancy in all His attributes that I wanted to assert.

Thanks for the whole subject as well.

RG57

11-14-2008, 01:09 PM

That's okay, I felt that it was worthy of discussion and it has ben refreshing to read all the views on this subject. I have an open mind on most subjects in life. As you know I am a Christian but have no problems with other faiths, I believe we all have our own path to follow, all men/women can believe and tell others of their faith but none will no the true answer till we have breathed our last in this life.

absurda

11-14-2008, 02:09 PM

RG57

11-14-2008, 03:45 PM

absurda - obviously as most can tell I am a fairly religious person, there is much in what you say that I agree with. There is also the spiritual side of religion that can't be easily expressed in words without this side the church would be nothing nor the faith that it holds to.
I like your idea of marketing, some years back I researched into many of the Christian faiths/denominations, it was very interesting and at times scarey! The 'marketing' ranged from far fundamentalism which would scare the life out of people if they stepped out line with the doctrines to the very liberal evangelistc side (who too could use the fire and brimstone feature as well). At the end of the day I found that the established churches such as RC and Anglican etc had the middle ground. Also as aa point of interest it was the middle ground churches that were losing people and the extremes were gaining. I probably have not put this across very vlearly but I hope get wnat I am trying to say.

NikolaiI

11-16-2008, 03:16 AM

The simple fact is that we are here by our own actions. We used to exist with the Lord in the spiritual world, in full bliss and knowledge. But for whatever reason, we desired to enjoy separate from the Lord, and that is why we were placed in the material universe, which is like a prison. Because of our desires we assumed or took on bodies which are suitable for fulfilling those desires. As we began to enjoy, we began to develop false ego and lose our intelligence and all our knowledge and abilities. After contact with matter for millenia, we forgot our transcendental position. Now we are in the darkness of ignorance- we do not know who we are. We do not know that we are a spirit soul, the eternal parts and parcels of the Lord; we do not know who we are or who the Lord is. We have lost our transcendental bliss and knowledge.

The material universe only makes up 1/4th of all creation, the spiritual worlds make up the other 3/4ths. The Earth is the highest planet of a lower grouping of planets. We are here because our consciousness brought us here, our karma brought us. There are hellish planets, and the entities that live there are suffering for their actions. Eventually they will begin to elevate out until they reach a place like Earth where it is possible to end the cycle by regaining their transcendental position. God created all spiritual and material worlds; but our view is pretty much entirely based on our surroundings. We think everything we do based on the planet we live on, and if we lived on a planet higher or lower we would not have the same views. For instance on a heavenly planet, we would be enjoying so many pleasures, we would think it's so nice, but then, we would actually be harming ourselves in the long run, because it's beginning the forgetfulness, the descent, the fall.

hellsapoppin

11-18-2008, 05:59 PM

In a word: yes.

NikolaiI

11-18-2008, 06:18 PM

I thought you were an atheist, hells.

hellsapoppin

11-19-2008, 09:53 PM

... not entirely.

;)

crystalmoonshin

11-24-2008, 07:29 AM

RG57

11-24-2008, 06:33 PM

With my limited knowledge, I humbly offer my opinion that God didn't create evil. How can a being full of goodness create evil? And isn't it said that "everything He created was good"? (Can't remember the exact verse, but it's in the Book of Genesis.)

So where did evil originate from? I think that it's man's creation and an indirect result of the free will bestowed on us by the Supreme Being. So naturally, I also believe that man is good, being a creation of God. But since man is not perfect like God, he lacks goodness and this lack of goodness results in evil.

I think the verse(s) you are thinking off are at the end of each day's creation in the first chapter of Genesis. Whilst I agree with you sentiments concerning God being full of goodness, if man created evil through the sin of disobediance, God is still indirectly the creator of evil because He created man.

weltanschauung

11-24-2008, 09:55 PM

"i can do no evil for i do not know what it is."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBGGAjMg9vw
quite simple, actually.

blazeofglory

12-25-2008, 04:36 AM

This question can not be answered. But I think evil or the devil, the embodiment of evil is not far from God for the entire cosmos is the manifestation of God and by virtue of the fact that the devil or evil is also here how can it or he or she be away.

spiritabove

12-30-2009, 08:42 PM

Hi there, and God Bless Everyone.

I'm christian but also have no problems with others of different faiths. As to the original posters question "Did God create Evil" .... If God say's He created evil, then God created evil. We are given a choice/freewill to pick either way good or evil. If we pick the latter God will punish us with evil. God created everything including satan, demons, the serpent, the beast and HELL. All created by Gods hands.

There are many many parts of the bible that clearly shows God bringing evil because of people and their sins who provoke God to jealously then to anger then wrapth of evil upon the people.

Exod.32

[7] And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
[8] They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
[9] And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
[10] Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
[11] And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
[12] Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
[13] Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
[14] And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Deut.7

[15] And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

Deut.29

14] Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
[15] But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
[16] (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;
[17] And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them:)
[18] Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
[19] And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
[20] The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
[21] And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
[22] So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
[23] And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
[24] Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
[25] Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
[26] For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
[27] And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
[28] And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.
[29] The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Deut.30

[15] See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Deut.31

[16] And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
[17] Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day. Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
[18] And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
[19] Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

Josh.23

[15] Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Judg.9

[23] Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sam.16

[14] But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
[15] And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

2Sam.12

11] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

2 Sam.24

16] And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

1Kgs.9

[1] And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,
[2] That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.
[3] And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
[4] And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:
[5] Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
[6] But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
[7] Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
[8] And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
[9] And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

1Kgs.14

[10] Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

1Kgs.21

[29] Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

2 Kngs.21

12] Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

2 Kgs.22

[16] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
[17] Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
[18] But to the king of Judah which sent you to inquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;
[19] Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
[20] Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

1 Chr.21

[15] And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

2 Chr.7

12] And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.
[13] If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
[14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
[15] Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
[16] For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
[17] And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statues and my judgments;
[18] Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
[19] But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
[20] Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.
[21] And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?
[22] And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

Job.2

[10] But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job.42

[11] Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Prov.16

4] The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isa.45

[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amen.

Nations who walk away from Gods commands will recieve a horrible punishment from the Almighty, a punishment filled to the brim with evil.
Isa.45
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
4Ezra.15
[1] Behold, speak thou in the ears of my people the words of prophecy, which I will put in thy mouth, saith the Lord:
[2] And cause them to be written in paper: for they are faithful and true.
[3] Fear not the imaginations against thee, let not the incredulity of them trouble thee, that speak against thee.
[4] For all the unfaithful shall die in their unfaithfulness.
[5] Behold, saith the Lord, I will bring plagues upon the world; the sword, famine, death, and destruction.
[6] For wickedness hath exceedingly polluted the whole earth, and their hurtful works are fulfilled.
[7] Therefore saith the Lord,
[8] I will hold my tongue no more as touching their wickedness, which they profanely commit, neither will I suffer them in those things, in which they wickedly exercise themselves: behold, the innocent and righteous blood crieth unto me, and the souls of the just complain continually.
[9] And therefore, saith the Lord, I will surely avenge them, and receive unto me all the innocent blood from among them.
[10] Behold, my people is led as a flock to the slaughter: I will not suffer them now to dwell in the land of Egypt:
[11] But I will bring them with a mighty hand and a stretched out arm, and smite Egypt with plagues, as before, and will destroy all the land thereof.
[12] Egypt shall mourn, and the foundation of it shall be smitten with the plague and punishment that God shall bring upon it.
[13] They that till the ground shall mourn: for their seeds shall fail through the blasting and hail, and with a fearful constellation.
[14] Woe to the world and them that dwell therein!
[15] For the sword and their destruction draweth nigh, and one people shall stand up and fight against another, and swords in their hands.
[16] For there shall be sedition among men, and invading one another; they shall not regard their kings nor princes, and the course of their actions shall stand in their power.
[17] A man shall desire to go into a city, and shall not be able.
[18] For because of their pride the cities shall be troubled, the houses shall be destroyed, and men shall be afraid.
[19] A man shall have no pity upon his neighbour, but shall destroy their houses with the sword, and spoil their goods, because of the lack of bread, and for great tribulation.
[20] Behold, saith God, I will call together all the kings of the earth to reverence me, which are from the rising of the sun, from the south, from the east, and Libanus; to turn themselves one against another, and repay the things that they have done to them.
[21] Like as they do yet this day unto my chosen, so will I do also, and recompense in their bosom. Thus saith the Lord God;
[22] My right hand shall not spare the sinners, and my sword shall not cease over them that shed innocent blood upon the earth.
[23] The fire is gone forth from his wrath, and hath consumed the foundations of the earth, and the sinners, like the straw that is kindled.
[24] Woe to them that sin, and keep not my commandments! saith the Lord.
[25] I will not spare them: go your way, ye children, from the power, defile not my sanctuary.
[26] For the Lord knoweth all them that sin against him, and therefore delivereth he them unto death and destruction.
[27] For now are the plagues come upon the whole earth and ye shall remain in them: for God shall not deliver you, because ye have sinned against him.
[28] Behold an horrible vision, and the appearance thereof from the east:
[29] Where the nations of the dragons of Arabia shall come out with many chariots, and the multitude of them shall be carried as the wind upon earth, that all they which hear them may fear and tremble.
[30] Also the Carmanians raging in wrath shall go forth as the wild boars of the wood, and with great power shall they come, and join battle with them, and shall waste a portion of the land of the Assyrians.
[31] And then shall the dragons have the upper hand, remembering their nature; and if they shall turn themselves, conspiring together in great power to persecute them,
[32] Then these shall be troubled bled, and keep silence through their power, and shall flee.
[33] And from the land of the Assyrians shall the enemy besiege them, and consume some of them, and in their host shall be fear and dread, and strife among their kings.
[34] Behold clouds from the east and from the north unto the south, and they are very horrible to look upon, full of wrath and storm.
[35] They shall smite one upon another, and they shall smite down a great multitude of stars upon the earth, even their own star; and blood shall be from the sword unto the belly,
[36] And dung of men unto the camel’s hough.
[37] And there shall be great fearfulness and trembling upon earth: and they that see the wrath shall be afraid, and trembling shall come upon them.
[38] And then shall there come great storms from the south, and from the north, and another part from the west.
[39] And strong winds shall arise from the east, and shall open it; and the cloud which he raised up in wrath, and the star stirred to cause fear toward the east and west wind, shall be destroyed.
[40] The great and mighty clouds shall be puffed up full of wrath, and the star, that they may make all the earth afraid, and them that dwell therein; and they shall pour out over every high and eminent place an horrible star,
[41] Fire, and hail, and flying swords, and many waters, that all fields may be full, and all rivers, with the abundance of great waters.
[42] And they shall break down the cities and walls, mountains and hills, trees of the wood, and grass of the meadows, and their corn.
[43] And they shall go stedfastly unto Babylon, and make her afraid.
[44] They shall come to her, and besiege her, the star and all wrath shall they pour out upon her: then shall the dust and smoke go up unto the heaven, and all they that be about her shall bewail her.
[45] And they that remain under her shall do service unto them that have put her in fear.
[46] And thou, Asia, that art partaker of the hope of Babylon, and art the glory of her person:
[47] Woe be unto thee, thou wretch, because thou hast made thyself like unto her; and hast decked thy daughters in whoredom, that they might please and glory in thy lovers, which have always desired to commit whoredom with thee.
[48] Thou hast followed her that is hated in all her works and inventions: therefore saith God,
[49] I will send plagues upon thee; widowhood, poverty, famine, sword, and pestilence, to waste thy houses with destruction and death.
[50] And the glory of thy Power shall be dried up as a flower, the heat shall arise that is sent over thee.
[51] Thou shalt be weakened as a poor woman with stripes, and as one chastised with wounds, so that the mighty and lovers shall not be able to receive thee.
[52] Would I with jealousy have so proceeded against thee, saith the Lord,
[53] If thou hadst not always slain my chosen, exalting the stroke of thine hands, and saying over their dead, when thou wast drunken,
[54] Set forth the beauty of thy countenance?
[55] The reward of thy whoredom shall be in thy bosom, therefore shalt thou receive recompence.
[56] Like as thou hast done unto my chosen, saith the Lord, even so shall God do unto thee, and shall deliver thee into mischief
[57] Thy children shall die of hunger, and thou shalt fall through the sword: thy cities shall be broken down, and all thine shall perish with the sword in the field.
[58] They that be in the mountains shall die of hunger, and eat their own flesh, and drink their own blood, for very hunger of bread, and thirst of water.
[59] Thou as unhappy shalt come through the sea, and receive plagues again.
[60] And in the passage they shall rush on the idle city, and shall destroy some portion of thy land, and consume part of thy glory, and shall return to Babylon that was destroyed.
[61] And thou shalt be cast down by them as stubble, and they shall be unto thee as fire;
[62] And shall consume thee, and thy cities, thy land, and thy mountains; all thy woods and thy fruitful trees shall they burn up with fire.
[63] Thy children shall they carry away captive, and, look, what thou hast, they shall spoil it, and mar the beauty of thy face.
4Ezra.16
[1] Woe be unto thee, Babylon, and Asia! woe be unto thee, Egypt and Syria!
[2] Gird up yourselves with cloths of sack and hair, bewail your children, and be sorry; for your destruction is at hand.
[3] A sword is sent upon you, and who may turn it back?
[4] A fire is sent among you, and who may quench it?
[5] Plagues are sent unto you, and what is he that may drive them away?
[6] May any man drive away an hungry lion in the wood? or may any one quench the fire in stubble, when it hath begun to burn?
[7] May one turn again the arrow that is shot of a strong archer?
[8] The mighty Lord sendeth the plagues and who is he that can drive them away?
[9] A fire shall go forth from his wrath, and who is he that may quench it?
[10] He shall cast lightnings, and who shall not fear? he shall thunder, and who shall not be afraid?
[11] The Lord shall threaten, and who shall not be utterly beaten to powder at his presence?
[12] The earth quaketh, and the foundations thereof; the sea ariseth up with waves from the deep, and the waves of it are troubled, and the fishes thereof also, before the Lord, and before the glory of his power:
[13] For strong is his right hand that bendeth the bow, his arrows that he shooteth are sharp, and shall not miss, when they begin to be shot into the ends of the world.
[14] Behold, the plagues are sent, and shall not return again, until they come upon the earth.
[15] The fire is kindled, and shall not be put out, till it consume the foundation of the earth.
[16] Like as an arrow which is shot of a mighty archer returneth not backward: even so the plagues that shall be sent upon earth shall not return again.
[17] Woe is me! woe is me! who will deliver me in those days?
[18] The beginning of sorrows and great mournings; the beginning of famine and great death; the beginning of wars, and the powers shall stand in fear; the beginning of evils! what shall I do when these evils shall come?
[19] Behold, famine and plague, tribulation and anguish, are sent as scourges for amendment.
[20] But for all these things they shall not turn from their wickedness, nor be always mindful of the scourges.
[21] Behold, victuals shall be so good cheap upon earth, that they shall think themselves to be in good case, and even then shall evils grow upon earth, sword, famine, and great confusion.
[22] For many of them that dwell upon earth shall perish of famine; and the other, that escape the hunger, shall the sword destroy.
[23] And the dead shall be cast out as dung, and there shall be no man to comfort them: for the earth shall be wasted, and the cities shall be cast down.
[24] There shall be no man left to till the earth, and to sow it
[25] The trees shall give fruit, and who shall gather them?
[26] The grapes shall ripen, and who shall tread them? for all places shall be desolate of men:
[27] So that one man shall desire to see another, and to hear his voice.
[28] For of a city there shall be ten left, and two of the field, which shall hide themselves in the thick groves, and in the clefts of the rocks.
[29] As in an orchard of Olives upon every tree there are left three or four olives;
[30] Or as when a vineyard is gathered, there are left some clusters of them that diligently seek through the vineyard:
[31] Even so in those days there shall be three or four left by them that search their houses with the sword.
[32] And the earth shall be laid waste, and the fields thereof shall wax old, and her ways and all her paths shall grow full of thorns, because no man shall travel therethrough.
[33] The virgins shall mourn, having no bridegrooms; the women shall mourn, having no husbands; their daughters shall mourn, having no helpers.
[34] In the wars shall their bridegrooms be destroyed, and their husbands shall perish of famine.
[35] Hear now these things and understand them, ye servants of the Lord.
[36] Behold, the word of the Lord, receive it: believe not the gods of whom the Lord spake.
[37] Behold, the plagues draw nigh, and are not slack.
[38] As when a woman with child in the ninth month bringeth forth her son, with two or three hours of her birth great pains compass her womb, which pains, when the child cometh forth, they slack not a moment:
[39] Even so shall not the plagues be slack to come upon the earth, and the world shall mourn, and sorrows shall come upon it on every side.
[40] O my people, hear my word: make you ready to thy battle, and in those evils be even as pilgrims upon the earth.
[41] He that selleth, let him be as he that fleeth away: and he that buyeth, as one that will lose:
[42] He that occupieth merchandise, as he that hath no profit by it: and he that buildeth, as he that shall not dwell therein:
[43] He that soweth, as if he should not reap: so also he that planteth the vineyard, as he that shall not gather the grapes:
[44] They that marry, as they that shall get no children; and they that marry not, as the widowers.
[45] And therefore they that labour labour in vain:
[46] For strangers shall reap their fruits, and spoil their goods, overthrow their houses, and take their children captives, for in captivity and famine shall they get children.
[47] And they that occupy their merchandise with robbery, the more they deck their cities, their houses, their possessions, and their own persons:
[48] The more will I be angry with them for their sin, saith the Lord.
[49] Like as a whore envieth a right honest and virtuous woman:
[50] So shall righteousness hate iniquity, when she decketh herself, and shall accuse her to her face, when he cometh that shall defend him that diligently searcheth out every sin upon earth.
[51] And therefore be ye not like thereunto, nor to the works thereof.
[52] For yet a little, and iniquity shall be taken away out of the earth, and righteousness shall reign among you.
[53] Let not the sinner say that he hath not sinned: for God shall burn coals of fire upon his head, which saith before the Lord God and his glory, I have not sinned.
[54] Behold, the Lord knoweth all the works of men, their imaginations, their thoughts, and their hearts:
[55] Which spake but the word, Let the earth be made; and it was made: Let the heaven be made; and it was created.
[56] In his word were the stars made, and he knoweth the number of them.
[57] He searcheth the deep, and the treasures thereof; he hath measured the sea, and what it containeth.
[58] He hath shut the sea in the midst of the waters, and with his word hath he hanged the earth upon the waters.
[59] He spreadeth out the heavens like a vault; upon the waters hath he founded it.
[60] In the desert hath he made springs of water, and pools upon the tops of the mountains, that the floods might pour down from the high rocks to water the earth.
[61] He made man, and put his heart in the midst of the body, and gave him breath, life, and understanding.
[62] Yea and the Spirit of Almighty God, which made all things, and searcheth out all hidden things in the secrets of the earth,
[63] Surely he knoweth your inventions, and what ye think in your hearts, even them that sin, and would hide their sin.
[64] Therefore hath the Lord exactly searched out all your works, and he will put you all to shame.
[65] And when your sins are brought forth, ye shall be ashamed before men, and your own sins shall be your accusers in that day.
[66] What will ye do? or how will ye hide your sins before God and his angels?
[67] Behold, God himself is the judge, fear him: leave off from your sins, and forget your iniquities, to meddle no more with them for ever: so shall God lead you forth, and deliver you from all trouble.
[68] For, behold, the burning wrath of a great multitude is kindled over you, and they shall take away certain of you, and feed you, being idle, with things offered unto idols.
[69] And they that consent unto them shall be had in derision and in reproach, and trodden under foot.
[70] For there shall be in every place, and in the next cities, a great insurrection upon those that fear the Lord.
[71] They shall be like mad men, sparing none, but still spoiling and destroying those that fear the Lord.
[72] For they shall waste and take away their goods, and cast them out of their houses.
[73] Then shall they be known, who are my chosen; and they shall be tried as the gold in the fire.
[74] Hear, O ye my beloved, saith the Lord: behold, the days of trouble are at hand, but I will deliver you from the same.
[75] Be ye not afraid neither doubt; for God is your guide,
[76] And the guide of them who keep my commandments and precepts, saith the Lord God: let not your sins weigh you down, and let not your iniquities lift up themselves.
[77] Woe be unto them that are bound with their sins, and covered with their iniquities like as a field is covered over with bushes, and the path thereof covered with thorns, that no man may travel through!
[78] It is left undressed, and is cast into the fire to be consumed therewith.
The Word of The Lord.
Yes!! God creates evil.
In Jesus Name Thy Will Be Done, Amen and Amen.

Leviticus.26

[13] I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
[14] But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
[15] And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
[16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
[17] And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
[18] And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
[19] And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
[20] And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
[21] And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
[22] I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your highways shall be desolate.
[23] And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
[24] Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25] And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
[26] And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
[27] And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
[28] Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
[29] And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
[30] And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
[31] And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
[32] And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
[33] And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
[34] Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
[35] As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
[36] And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
[37] And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
[38] And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
[39] And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
[40] If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
[41] And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
[42] Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
[43] The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

The word of the Lord

marcolfo

12-30-2009, 09:32 PM

Can't remember who said the following. In relation to god and evil

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then is he impotent.
Is God able but not willing? Then is He malevolent.
Is God both able and willing? Whence then is evil?
Is God unable and unwilling? Why do you call him God

a_little_wisp

12-31-2009, 12:58 AM

JuniperWoolf

12-31-2009, 04:49 PM

Epicurus, 'cept it was, "Then he is not omnipotent," aaand "Then whence cometh evil?" instead of: "Whence then is evil?"

:rolleyes: It's a translation of ancient Greek, so they're both correct.

Dinkleberry2010

01-01-2010, 11:51 AM

All four questions are addressed in the book of Job

hellsapoppin

01-06-2010, 12:26 AM

Did some god create evil? Mark Twain thought so:

"Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast"

Mark Twain, Reflections on Religion, 1906

blazeofglory

01-06-2010, 07:07 AM

This births another question, a very grave one- is there a greater power than God to create de-create and recreate anything?

JackieGinger

01-06-2010, 01:26 PM

Wouldn't it have been boring if everything was good?
I'm going to answer the question with a cliche: if there weren't hard times and evil for that matter, we wouldn't be able to appreciate good, we wouldn't be able to distinguish the good things, because then it wouldn't be possible for it to exist.
Another thing...maybe God wanted to have fun.
Alright that's a nasty joke, but if we think of it...if it weren't for conflicts and evil an enormous part of our human culture (literature, music, films etc...) would have never come to life..

NikolaiI

01-06-2010, 02:06 PM

I guess one question would be, does evil have any substance? Does the world have substance? Sages and mystics of all religions, once they have broken out of illusion, have seen God, and expressed it as a truth beyond expression. They've said, "there's an infinite light at the center and source of everything, and that is God." Sri Aurobindo put it this way; "Look up, O child of the ancient Yoga, and be no longer a trembler and a doubter; fear not, doubt not, grieve not; for in your apparent body is One who can create and destroy worlds in a breath."

They have all said that God can be realized, and they felt that heaven, by whatever name, God's kingdom, or a divine life, was all around and imminent. So if we can say that perceiving divinity everywhere and God in everything is true perception, then evil loses its substance. Sages and seers have also said that this world actually is God. As Swami Vivekananda said, "This is no world. It is God Himself. In delusion we call it world."

ProsJustGo

01-06-2010, 08:53 PM

Didn't god create evil to give us a choice? To give us freewill? Or, should i say that Evil is a bi-product of giving us freewill? He wanted us to make our own choices. And we, as a people, decided to give into evil. And the story of Eden barrows heavily from other religions.

PierreGringoire

01-07-2010, 01:51 AM

IceM

01-07-2010, 02:49 AM

If we apply the Biblical interpretation of God, then yes, he created evil, for Man is created in God's image and evil surely exists on Earth.

Of course though, this question varies according to how one defines God, and more importantly, how one defines evil. Vegetarians may consider the slaughter of animals for consumption evil while Adolf Hitler may have considered his slaughter of Jews kindness. How one defines God is just as significant. So the question can be subjective, depending on religious interpretation or an independent belief of God.

blazeofglory

01-07-2010, 06:25 AM

In fact we simply make our on interpretations and then stick to that interpretation of God, the universe, the creation of the world and the like but the truth may lie somewhere else in an unknown zone. Logically speaking, why God created evil? Is it a humor or game God wants to play? There are so many sufferers and can God, the almighty one change it and make all his children happy? Does not God to take the responsibility for not imprisoning the Devil?

NikolaiI

01-07-2010, 02:11 PM

Are you basically saying that evil is not an entity. While God is? Evil is not a antimatter--it is simply a lack of light?

Well I was not saying that evil is not an entity, while God is. What I am saying is that all of this world is maya, or it is a dream. Enlightenment, reality, is God. Nothing else, evil or good, is real. God is not so much an entity as the infinite, infinite peace, power, bliss and knowledge. And God is the source of everything and everyone. We're never separate from God. How can we be separate from our source?

So it's about perception. You see, the maya is like a book, it is like a nearly-infinite amount of information. And yet it is all like frozen in time. Why? Because beyond all the restrictions of space and time is God, the Witness. Therefore, God alone exists. For example, consider that there is an entity, God, who is infinite. That means, He knows everything and He can do everything. Therefore His nature is infinite power, peace, bliss and knowledge. That is also His nature, of infinite bliss. Anyway so this entity, God, can do everything and knows everything. So in relationship to Him, what else exists? In relationship to the infinite, what substance has the number 23? Anyway, this is an ancient Hindu idea that God alone exists.

In our deep-sleep state, we can hardly do anything.

Consider it is like this, if you can move at an infinite speed, how fast are the cars of this world moving? They are not moving at all, in relation. The same is true for the rest. God has infinite power, so nothing besides God has any power, or substance, or reality or existence, except for God.

FoghornBellows

01-07-2010, 05:50 PM

IceM

01-07-2010, 09:58 PM

Yeah, I agree with the post above me. We can speculate where we stand in our relationship to God all we want to, but the fact of the matter is, evil exists. If one believes his God to be the Creator of everything that exists, evil cannot be excluded, unless turning a blind eye to empirical evidence is part of theology.

NikolaiI

01-07-2010, 10:16 PM

That's very pretty, Nikolai, and I'd love to read about it in a novel. However, it's all embellishment. Things simply are what they are. What you've written is purely speculative mental construction; it can never be proved.

Duality is an illusion. And since we are under the illusion of duality, everything from that point is untrue. Every joy you've ever had, though it perhaps has been pleasurable, never let you saw the truth of your existence - non-duality, or unity. At the first desire, there is incompleteness, imperfection; a perfect being has no incompleteness, or desire. But realization of non-duality is completely inconceivable without direct experience of non-duality. But experience of non-duality cannot be understood by language or concepts.

It is inexpressible but not speculation, it is an experience. That non-duality goes beyond anything previous to it. No matter a king or a beggar, all is illusion based on duality. So if you realize you are one with the universe, with the cosmos, you realize you are far greater than any role you could pretend to be.

Realization of non-duality and simultaneous freedom of desire - in other words, acceptance of the present, the circumstances, non-attachment to happiness or distress - this bears the fruit of complete peace.

PierreGringoire

01-07-2010, 10:34 PM

Duality is an illusion. And since we are under the illusion of duality, everything from that point is untrue. Every joy you've ever had, though it perhaps has been pleasurable, never let you saw the truth of your existence - non-duality, or unity. At the first desire, there is incompleteness, imperfection; a perfect being has no incompleteness, or desire. But realization of non-duality is completely inconceivable without direct experience of non-duality. But experience of non-duality cannot be understood by language or concepts.

It is inexpressible but not speculation, it is an experience. That non-duality goes beyond anything previous to it. No matter a king or a beggar, all is illusion based on duality. So if you realize you are one with the universe, with the cosmos, you realize you are far greater than any role you could pretend to be.

Realization of non-duality and simultaneous freedom of desire - in other words, acceptance of the present, the circumstances, non-attachment to happiness or distress - this bears the fruit of complete peace.

I think I might see what you are saying. Doesn't peace have a lot to do with being happy though? Happy, contentness, peace--can't they be interchangable? You make peace sound like an inebriated state! Or some kind of mysterious sixth sense that you need to have completely before you have it at all. I think we all experience little tastes of peace here and there. You make it sound like boiling water. You know when its boiling when its boiling as my mom used to say. So you only know what it is when you have it?

Serious question: How do I know I'm not enlightened?

Edited: Thinking about it more you could have meant that true peace isn't volatile. In other words it isn't too happy or too distressed. It dictates its mood depending on the situation?

billl

01-07-2010, 11:58 PM

Whatever enlightenment may seem to a person, I am not really interested in looking too much beyond how it might help someone calm down, reappraise things, keep things in perspective, etc. There might be other spiritual "benefits," but I think they might be easy to exaggerate.

Anyhow, if someone really has managed to get a complete perception of everything as being one, and getting past the duality entirely, then I hope they don't spend too much "time" peeking at other people's bank accounts, bathroom visits, romances, private chats, etc., certainly. (But perhaps they couldn't help it, once they dive in?)

On the other hand, if they simply are sensing that a minimization of thought expands one's focus, affects our sense of "self", and gives a peek at our perceptual machinery itself, and/or an insight into what becomes of our "self" once we perceive nothing else, or something like that--then I think such an experience can be quite significant indeed. Different from, and far greater in impact, but perhaps metaphorically akin to seeing a photo of the Earth from the moon or something. But also, something that one can't point at, and prove in all of its significance, to another person residing in another consciousness. I think it would be useful to have such an experience--but I don't think it, in itself, would be a good basis for turning one's back on a respect for the life-approaches of other individuals (enlightened or otherwise), nor even for disparaging the illusory world (maya) that I am, for example, typing on, and that separates each of us (in its illusory way...:)).

I think the idea of "peace" is of course good (great!) in the usual senses, as well as in the sense of a not-so-anxious sort of response to the world around one. However, I think this sort of thing can go too far maybe (at least in our imaginations), and it would be unfortunate for people to think that an enlightened person should be content with life in a slave-labor camp, a country that is corrupt, a relationship that is abusive, or as a second-class citizen, or with unjust restrictions on their curiosity, or with a friend's suffering, etc.

That they would desire to change things (and such desire might spring with clarity, and not be vulgar) would be something to applaud and encourage in a person, enlightened or not. Of course, that the enlightened person would act with a certain confidence and acceptance of the resulting "struggle" would be something that we should expect, and admire. But others would resist as well, naturally, and with passion.

For us to spend time trying to differentiate this dare-I-say-it enlightened sort of "desire" from other types might be a good thing. But I think there is a slippery slope that descends from an unbalanced, wholesale, and fundamentalist renunciation/condemnation of passion and desire in our lives.

I think it is good not to dwell on things, sometimes. And I do enjoy a nice walk in the woods, listening to and encountering Nature, and reconnecting with it. And I do (like most other people) make some decisions without thinking at all, when "being in the zone" seems like a good approach. But I feel some things are better when we think, have preferences, and have passion.

NikolaiI

01-08-2010, 12:04 AM

I think I might see what you are saying. Doesn't peace have a lot to do with being happy though? Happy, contentness, peace--can't they be interchangable? You make peace sound like an inebriated state! Or some kind of mysterious sixth sense that you need to have completely before you have it at all. I think we all experience little tastes of peace here and there. You make it sound like boiling water. You know when its boiling when its boiling as my mom used to say. So you only know what it is when you have it?

Serious question: How do I know I'm not enlightened?

Edited: Thinking about it more you could have meant that true peace isn't volatile. In other words it isn't too happy or too distressed. It dictates its mood depending on the situation?

I agree very much with what you are saying. Contentness and peace, those are definitely interchangeable. And that we experience little tastes of peace here and there, that is also true. But there is also a peace which goes beyond that. As life is unlimited, there are unlimited levels of peace, levels of happiness, levels of sanity, or spiritual growth, etc. But there is one specific boundary line which few ever cross. It isn't inebriation. Now there are more people in the Western countries who have come closer to this truth. There's people like Ken Wilber, who wrote books like "No Boundary," and they explored Eastern and Western psychology and philosophy.

Also several others have come to the idea that duality is an illusion. Lao Tzu, Alan Watts, Swami Vivekananda and Black Elk, all came to a paralell idea. As Black Elk said it, "Only when men shall know that they are one with the universe will they know peace in their souls." When I experienced this, I knew that I had never experienced it before, though I had been happy, peaceful, in love, many times if not most of my life, I had been joyous, as well as sorrowful, distressed, and all the other states of emotion. But I knew that none of these had reached the reality, the non-duality. Even the best of these was still in an illusion, even the best was, in relation, missing out.

And how to explain the peace? It's just that every single stress that we ever feel in this life, that is based on defense of the ego - or defense of the defense of - well, all of it is unnecessary, because the ego itself doesn't exist. As Buddhism says, "Emptiness is form, and form is emptiness." And then someone may say, "Doesn't that mean that life is empty?" But actually there is an underlying reality which we are missing. And realization of non-duality - is not an empty feeling. It's a feeling which can't be related to any other feeling. It's more than a feeling, it is knowing, a realization. And it's in full awareness an inexpressible joy and bliss. It is waking up from a dream, and at the same time being absolutely, completely filled with bliss, love, and knowledge. It is absolutely realizing the very highest ideal of love.

Other times, we feel love, perhaps if everything is perfect, we feel it all the time, and perhaps one day after many years of completely perfect life and practice, then we would attain the same realization. It is possible. But that is what I am speaking of, the complete realization of the ideal, which other times we merely feel at times, which when we remember sustains us. It is reazing simultaneously peace, bliss and knowledge basically.

I'm sorry in that I may have written too much, just in the attempt to describe it.

NikolaiI

01-08-2010, 12:13 AM

I think the idea of "peace" is of course good (great!) in the usual senses, as well as in the sense of a not-so-anxious sort of response to the world around one. However, I think this sort of thing can go too far maybe (at least in our imaginations), and it would be unfortunate for people to think that an enlightened person should be content with life in a slave-labor camp, a country that is corrupt, a relationship that is abusive, or as a second-class citizen, or with unjust restrictions on their curiosity, or with a friend's suffering, etc.

Of course - but your concern isn't specific to this topic, but rather to philosophy in general. You are saying that people should not mainly focus on philosophy, or spiritual practice or whatever, when there are very immediate and demanding problems in their life - an abusive marriage, a labor camp, etc. And what you say is definitely right - practical matters always come first.

billl

01-08-2010, 02:38 AM

I actually intended for my post to extend that point towards other less immediate and less demanding concerns. Passion and desire need defending from the other team, sometimes ;). I just think it is too simple to dismiss them entirely, although it is right to note that they can sometimes lead us astray, etc.

aquarium444

01-30-2010, 03:05 AM

Those of us who are Christians believe that God created everything.
If that is so did He create evil?
If so, to what purpose?
Or was it something that just happened?

I have to admit I am not sure

The Bible walks through creation and says exactly what God created on each day. He does observe that various things are good.

I think that the best way to view evil should be as it relates to sin. God is holy, so he is above sin, and man is not; although Moses did rise above sin for 40 days, etc.

Anyway, what you have here is opposites. Evil is an opposite of good, and it seems that opposites can exist. The reason why opposites can exist is for sure related to some form of God like relationship...perhaps the commandments.

chrissy613

03-28-2010, 10:32 PM

Those of us who are Christians believe that God created everything.
If that is so did He create evil?
If so, to what purpose?
Or was it something that just happened?

I have to admit I am not sure

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Hopefully that clarifies things.

blazeofglory

03-31-2010, 11:28 AM

This is paradoxical and why did have to create devil?

dizzydoll

03-31-2010, 11:53 AM

I believe we make our own heaven or hell right here on earth, now. We have a choice, but that doesnt make it any easier. Still it is our choice, heaven or hell. The same applies to good and evil, but it is paradox as Blaze says -- we will always be surrounded by both. So which side are you on?

Remember this:
Spanish Train by Chris de Burgh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yKVhbIBgso)

:angel:........... :reddevil:

Coming back to God, I believe God is in you and me and everything we see!. He is not outside of us. :willy_nilly: lol. So your question asks 'Did God Create evil?", is like asking did you/me create evil? So my answer is NO

Quarter Moon

03-31-2010, 02:56 PM

Yes God knew that evil existed in a nothingness space and time. Lurking in nothingness. But it is now out of it's trick bag.Not that God created it. It's that He knew of it's existance. Alowing it to express itself is only an effort to destroy it. Love Maureen

jet.thursday

03-31-2010, 09:07 PM

IceM

04-01-2010, 12:20 AM

Just like light and dark, we can never see light without the presence of darkness.
We can never distinguish that this one is heaven without hell.
But God as creator of hell, i'm not quite sure about that ^_^

Look a few posts above you to the poster whom posted Biblical verses.

God the Almighty created everything; light and darkness; happiness and sadness; good and evil. Stop being selective with how you see God with what the Bible, the book of God, says.

Musicology

04-02-2010, 09:38 AM

An absurd question. Since evil creates nothing. But only destroys. Evil is the perversion of good. So that good existed before there was evil.

Quarter Moon

04-02-2010, 12:19 PM

Good one. I like your reasoning. Love Maureen

swampthing

04-02-2010, 02:10 PM

Everyone seems to be confusing god with being good. How many wars are started by christian america because god told them? How many people do israel murder because they are gods chosen people? How many muslims murder people because their religion dictates that they kill other religions. How many children do jews and catholics sexually mutilate and rape?

Satan on the other hand is supposedly evil but can anyone name one thing that has ever happened where that character is responsible? Not sure rock music counts of the scheme of things.

The fact is that if there is a god he not only created evil but is evil beyond belief. That people choose to worship this unstable egomaniacal creation is pathetic in this day and age. Remember he loves you but if you don't worship him he will throw you to hell to be tortured for eternity. Sweet guy.

The most amusing verse from gods book is probably Exodus 31:15.

Quarter Moon

04-02-2010, 02:19 PM

You are very sad because you don't know if there is a God. My friend there is and he not what the churches say. He is merciful. Did they not Kill Christ too.And othe religions kill too.Moslem for one. It is people that do these things not God. We have free will. Evil is a name they put on something they don't even know the deep dark pit .
What gets out of the trick bag is evil.Not that God chose it. He knew evil would raise it's head into the physical world so he could destroy it.When it arrived there was a war in heaven. Love maureen

dizzydoll

04-02-2010, 07:30 PM

BienvenuJDC

04-02-2010, 08:33 PM

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-- Epicurus --

:D :Angel_anim:

He is ABLE and WILLING...
And ALL things are according His time! He wants to give all of us opportunity to escape the fate that will befall evil.

The argument is really flawed. And for those who actually understand God, it is evident.

IceM

04-03-2010, 01:28 AM

In Bien's defense, one must remember that God himself is outside of Man's dimensions; his thoughts; his ideas; his language. Perhaps it's possible that we consider God omnipotent, omniscient, loving because we fear the possibility of God being cruel, evil, malevolent. We cannot describe Him in our language because He is outside of us; any attempts to label Him one thing or another only pidgeon-holes Him to our romanticized visions of a God.

And to the poster who quoted Epicurus, who is to say God does not attempt to thwart evil through human beings? Who is to say we choose NOT to combat evil when God enables us? Your argument is invalid.

After all, evil wouldn't exist if humans like us (you included) perpetuate it.

dizzydoll

04-03-2010, 02:59 AM

In Bien's defense, one must remember that God himself is outside of Man's dimensions; his thoughts; his ideas; his language.

So where is your God? Where does he reside? Which GOD counts most out of the 34,000 different divisions of Christianity? Are the other 33,999 Christian believers outside of your denomination also wrong?

The long and the short of this is, if YOUR God would condemn and annihilate the whole world of differing religions, living belief systems and believers then that points to a very cruel God who I would prefer not to know, thank you very much.

:hand:

The argument is really flawed. And for those who actually understand God, it is evident.

You cannot speak for me and my understanding of God, just because I dont share your views doesnt mean I dont have my own. Its not wise to judge others before you know what their beliefs are, and even then its not your call. Its Gods call alone to make.

So again as Epicurus' quote states, if...

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

blazeofglory

04-03-2010, 07:09 AM

Some of the questions and answers revolving around the existence of God are totally unclear, confusing and misleading in point of fact. I choose skepticism. I cannot say God created evil or Evil has a different existence or is God's or everybody's enemy. If God is really merciful as the Bible or other religious texts say why he is not killing the Devil. Or God wants the Devil or it is a game God chooses to play with mortals. These are some of the questions we never can answer and even if we try to answer we never become convincing.

But whether or not we know or can know debating the issue is really moving and I love the discussion.

Musicology

04-03-2010, 08:58 AM

Everything of the creation is good. It is in harmony with everything else of that same creation. You will not find that God created compact discs although compact discs exist. And this is because the world that has come in to existence is the application or misapplication of the creation. Evil was not created. It was instead allowed. Because the creation was given choice. A product of freedom. Some choose evil instead of good. That is the source of evil. And God, knowing in advance what would be, allowed evil to exist, and allows it still, so that he, in the fullness of time, may show all of his characteristics despite evil.

Evil is therefore the perversion of good, as a lie is a perversion of the truth. And since He, the Creator, is also a Healer, he allowed sickness, in order that He might be revealed as a Healer. Likewise, he allowed evil, in order that He may be revealed as the antidote to evil. Therefore the whole of God's characteristics are revealed to mankind as a Healer, a Creator and the conqueror of evil. This known from the beginning by He who created all things.

IceM

04-03-2010, 01:03 PM

So where is your God? Where does he reside? Which GOD counts most out of the 34,000 different divisions of Christianity? Are the other 33,999 Christian believers outside of your denomination also wrong?

The long and the short of this is, if YOUR God would condemn and annihilate the whole world of differing religions, living belief systems and believers then that points to a very cruel God who I would prefer not to know, thank you very much.

:hand:

To your first paragraph:

If one truly believes in God then denominations are unnecessary. No one demonination is more right than any of the others because it is the fundamental view of God that is accepted and preached. While our romanticized views may pidgeon-hole what God truly his, denominational love of God is unnecessary if one truly believes. However, this doesn't mean splits in Christianity are any more right or more wrong than any others. I choose to take a non-denominational approach to Him because I feel my view of God is less biased than those of denominations; however, anyone whom participates in your "Christian splits" is no more wrong or right than me for doing so.

To your second paragraph:

Regardless of whether or not you find my God agreeable, he is a God nonetheless. You can refute the accepted views of a God all you want but that does not nullify the existence of a God; just those approaches to viewing him. Similarly, whether or not you find my God agreeable has no relevance; He is a God nonetheless, nullifying whether or not He actually exists. Sorry atheists. :smilielol5:

dizzydoll

04-03-2010, 01:15 PM

Thank you for your polite reply Ice. I feel it would be much better for society worldwide if, like you, we all took a non-denominational point of view towards our interpretation of God. If this were so there would be far less conflict. I do believe there is only one God who connects all of us in Oneness, who is not outside of ourselves. However, many believe God is outside somewhere sitting in judgment of us.

:thumbsup:

IceM

04-03-2010, 01:21 PM

I can't figure if you're being sarcastic or not.

dizzydoll

04-03-2010, 01:23 PM

No I am not ever sarcastic, thats the lowest form of wit.. not at all

Quarter Moon

04-03-2010, 01:27 PM

Were you asking me if I was being sarcastc. No I would mean no disrespect to you at all. I have been reading all your replies and they are nice. Love Maureen

sparechange

04-05-2010, 11:00 PM

Spiritabove. I guess no one read your post. I applaud this post because it cuts to the heart of the original question. The answer is that God does create evil and brings it upon people, nations, the land, cities etc, etc.
Many believers are afraid to acknowledge this, but the Bible teaches us that God is sovereign. The devil is man's adversary, not God's. The devil can no more battle The Almighty, than a tadpole can assult an Orca. :)
The problem comes in when people who believe in God attempt to reveal only a portion of his nature in order to make people feel comfortable.
If we believe God is who the Bible teaches us that he is, we have no basis to even ask these questions. One facet: God operates outside of time. Think about that for just one moment. This one aspect of God is so mind blowingly far away from our level of comprehension that it forces man to realize that we are infinitely unable to fathom "the big questions". God has revealed to us what he has chosen to reveal about himself, through His creation and His Word.
Big questions may be beyond us for now, because "we see through a glass darkly", but to those who believe, we are taught the we are loved by Him, and this should be sufficient to us. :)

Quarter Moon

04-05-2010, 11:06 PM

I love what you wrote. Have you ever heard of the Soul Asylum Poetry or the Poetry Alliance?
I spend most my time there. Alot of Christians there. Also Facebook. Quarter Moon is my Pen name. If you look you will find me. Thanks again for the oration and lovely piece of writing. Love Maureen

blazeofglory

04-06-2010, 07:16 AM

I always feel that there is no God and Evil as separate beings, and both are integrally one and the same thing; and God or Devil both form part of one universal whole. The name is not the thing, and what is there and our human brains cannot comprehend that super reality. We on a lower plain of creation have a divisive spirit and up there no division exists between devilishness or Godliness, but oneness. Our fragmented mindsets conditioned by our religions, faiths are creating illusions

The Comedian

04-06-2010, 10:26 AM

I'm always a little hesitant about these sorts of debates. If there is a g-d, a good g-d, then it probably did not create evil. But to even get this far we have to answer a ton of question like these: is g-d all powerful? is evil a separate entity or a perversion of good (as has been said)? And, would we even know good or evil if we saw them?

My sense on the good/evil problem is this: we don't know a damn thing about good/evil and related questions. Theists and atheists alike are just guessing and then supporting the position that makes them feel good. I'm suspicions of both bibles and "reason" insofar as they are held up to be life's "teacher edition" or answer key.

Did G-d create evil? Maybe. Then again, maybe not.

Rosie Cotton

04-06-2010, 02:00 PM

My religion thinks that good transcends God, and that God is bound by good and evil. He cannot do evil, or he would cease to be God.

Quarter Moon

04-06-2010, 02:09 PM

I personally believe God the Father when He says He sent His son to die because of our sins.After all was not everthing made by and for and through Christ. I believe in God the Father when He say thwart evil.Push it back into the nothingness place it belongs.We have free will and evil comes through us. It is our job to destroy it, from our lives.

/anyone who seeks to destroy the Holy God almighty will have a fight on there hands.
Respect is what we need to learn. Respect for God. God is Love and God is Happiness and He is Holy. No bad exsists in Him at all. He can control evil and destroy it when it manifests itself in the physical world.

chum

05-26-2010, 12:38 AM

I did not wish to read through this entire thread so this may have been stated before...God created "Man" with a free will to choose to love Him or not, To love Him is "good", to not love Him is "evil". If He had created beings that were "programmed' to love him...with no choice...is this true love?

blazeofglory

06-08-2010, 06:58 AM

I often wonder why God created evil and if He had not created who has created. Or to put it differently, evil was always there and god try to destroy him. If that is so Evil equates with God. Can anyone demystify this truth? I cannot believe any one can

Manalive

06-08-2010, 11:07 AM

I don't believe in a dualism of Good and Evil. I'm with St. Augustine in that: There is no 'Evil' to add balance to good. There is only Good. On one side of the scale, you have Supreme Good, and on the end side of the scale you have the lowest good that can come from an act(or whatever). If one is getting pleasure from killing someone then that pleasure is, in and of itself, a 'good' feeling. There is no such thing as a wholly evil feeling.

Augustine realized that the solution [of the origin of evil] was tied to the question: What is evil? The argument above depends on the idea that evil is a thing (note the second premise). But what if evil is not a "thing" in that sense? Then evil did not need creating. If so, our search for the source of evil will take us in a another direction

Augustine approached the problem from a different angle. He asked: Do we have any convincing evidence that a good God exists? If independent evidence leads us to conclude that God exists and is good, then He would be incapable of creating evil. Something else, then, must be its source.

If Augustine's approach is fair, it prompts a pair of syllogisms that lead to a different conclusion. First: 1) All things that God created are good; 2) evil is not good; 3) therefore, evil was not created by God. Second: 1) God created every thing; 2) God did not create evil; 3) therefore, evil is not a thing.

The key to success here, is the truthfulness of two premises. If Augustine can offer evidence through natural theology that God exists as Creator and also that God is good, making everything He created also good, then the conclusion--evil is not a thing--automatically follows.

This is Augustine's strategy. If evil is not a thing, then the case against Christianity stated in the original syllogism is unsound because one of its premises is false. The critical question is: What is evil?

Central to Augustine's idea of goodness (and, consequently, evil) was the notion of being. To Augustine, anything that had being was good. God as the ground of being was perfectly good, along with everything he brought into being. This goodness was a property that came in varying degrees.

With this foundation Augustine was now prepared to answer the key issue: 'Where is evil then, and whence, and how crept it in hither? What is its root, and what its seed? Or hath it no being?' To this Augustine answered: 'Evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name 'evil.'

Augustine observed that evil always injures, and such injury is a deprivation of good. If there were no deprivation, there would be no injury. Since all things were made with goodness, evil must be the privation of goodness: 'All which is corrupted is deprived of good.'

The diminution of the property of goodness is what's called evil. Good has substantial being; evil does not. It is like a moral hole, a nothingness that results when goodness is removed. Just as a shadow is no more than a 'hole' in light, evil is a hole in goodness.

To say that something is evil, then, is a shorthand way of saying it either lacks goodness, or is a lower order of goodness than what ought to have been. But the question remains: 'Whence and how crept it in hither?'

Augustine observed that evil could not be chosen because there is no evil thing to choose. One can only turn away from the good, that is from a greater good to a lesser good (in Augustine's hierarchy) since all things are good. 'For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil--not because that is evil to which it turns, but because the turning itself is wicked.'

Evil, then, is the act itself of choosing the lesser good. To Augustine the source of evil is in the free will of persons: 'And I strained to perceive what I now heard, that free-will was the cause of our doing ill.' Evil was a "perversion of the will, turned aside from...God" to lesser things."

"Evil exists because we have free will. God enables humans to freely choose their actions and deeds, and evil inevitably results from these choices."

Dekarto

06-28-2010, 08:45 PM

God did not create evil. Everything he created was good (Genesis 1).

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good [...] - (Genesis 1:31)

Evil exists only as an absence of good, much like cold exists as an absence of warmth and darkness only exists as an absence of light. It is true that God allows for evil to exist, but this is to give mankind free will. Free will can only exist when there are options, and because God created everything good, he had to allow for the absence of good, evil, to exist for the purpose of this.

Therefore, God did not create evil, he allowed for it to give mankind the free will that allows them to either obey him or disobey him. If God had not allowed for evil to exist, we would worship him out of obligation rather than a choice of our own will.

(Angels were also given free will and Satan is a fallen angel that chose to disobey God. Satan then appeared to Adam and Eve in the form of a serpent in the Garden of Eden and lured them to disobey God. By disobeying God, mankind was seperated from Him by the evil that entered them by this act of unfaithfulness and disobedience and this has passed down through generations, known today as sin. Obviously, this sinful nature that exists in every one of us today, was not created by God, mankind, nor Satan. It is the absence of good in us that became so great at the fall that we became separated from God, the Almighty Creator who created all things good.)

IceM

07-15-2010, 01:24 PM

Manalive

07-15-2010, 06:29 PM

If creating heat allows for the absence thereof (cold) to exist, then a creator has created the possibility of the absence existing. God created evil by creating good, in that He formed the possibility of an absence exisiting. Whether or not Man commits such follies out of free will is irrelevant, because A) we can discuss how God created free will which created the opportunity for Man to do wrong, or B) by creating one extreme you create the chance for the opposite to be committed.

Can you give me an example of a purely evil feeling, my friend? That is-- a feeling totally void of good or any form of pleasure? Murder is quite the evil act, but the doesn't stop the murderer from feeling some measure of gratification or pleasure from committing it. Good vs. Evil (in duality) is a Eastern philosophy mate. There is no "Evil" to stand in defiance of God. Nothing can oppose God on an equal footing. He created everything good.

Dodo25

07-15-2010, 06:37 PM

Can you give me an example of a purely evil feeling, my friend? That is-- a feeling totally void of good or any form of pleasure? Murder is quite the evil act, but the doesn't stop the murderer from feeling some measure of gratification or pleasure from committing it. Good vs. Evil (in duality) is a Eastern philosophy mate. There is no "Evil" to stand in defiance of God. Nothing can oppose God on an equal footing. He created everything good.

The example you just gave is much more Eastern philosophy than it is Christianity. Eastern philosophy is ALWAYS both, ying AND yang.

Christians say God is Good and nothing else (some add Satan is Evil, yet others disagree, franky, I don't care about that).

Taking a famous historical example, why would God create the Ichneumonidae? A family of wasps that has the habit to sting caterpillars, paralyze them and lay eggs into them (in many caterpillar segments). Then the larvae hatch out of the eggs and start eating the caterpillar - alive. Where's the 'good' in that?

And don't tell me humans brought this into the world by original sin. I would assume that this species was present before humans, and if not, I'm sure many similarly 'cruel' things were. Humans came AFTER death, disease and suffering.

IceM

07-15-2010, 07:39 PM

Can you give me an example of a purely evil feeling, my friend? That is-- a feeling totally void of good or any form of pleasure? Murder is quite the evil act, but the doesn't stop the murderer from feeling some measure of gratification or pleasure from committing it. Good vs. Evil (in duality) is a Eastern philosophy mate. There is no "Evil" to stand in defiance of God. Nothing can oppose God on an equal footing. He created everything good.

I agree with you that evil to some is pleasure to others, of course. But, in terms of the bold, you're wrong. I'm pretty sure either A) not believing in God or B) purposely violating his Ten Commandments (the ONLY ten laws we were advised to live by) would piss Him off. Why else would there be Hell if there was no "Evil" to oppose him? You don't expect me to believe that JUST Satan lives there, do you?

And besides, to roughly quote the Bible, "everything God made was good." (You probably recognize the quote; it was mentioned earlier). If God made everything good and someone set out to destroy this "good," would that not be considered evil?

Manalive

07-15-2010, 08:13 PM

The example you just gave is much more Eastern philosophy than it is Christianity. Eastern philosophy is ALWAYS both, ying AND yang.

And I'm arguing that it's only "Yin". My example is from St. Augustine and St. Aquinas who heavily borrowed it from the Ethics of Aristotle. The Ying/yang duality is the very thing that I am arguing against. Where is that not clear at? I'm not sure I can explain it any more clearly than I already have.

Taking a famous historical example, why would God create the Ichneumonidae? A family of wasps that has the habit to sting caterpillars, paralyze them and lay eggs into them (in many caterpillar segments). Then the larvae hatch out of the eggs and start eating the caterpillar - alive. Where's the 'good' in that?

I can't completely answer that for you, my friend. I'm not a biologist nor God. And I was speaking completely about Man and his nature. But going along the lines of my argument-- the good is that the food chain stays in tact, I suppose mate? The wasp reproduces which in turn keeps the caterpillar population down. Is that textbook enough for you?

And don't tell me humans brought this into the world by original sin. I would assume that this species was present before humans, and if not, I'm sure many similarly 'cruel' things were. Humans came AFTER death, disease and suffering.

Very well, I won't tell you that. But don't assume I am ignorant of natural biological observances because I'm Catholic or religious.

Meat eating Animals ate other animals. Adam and Eve at least ate plants which requires diegestion. Digestive Systems require decay or death to work. Adam and Eve didn't die physically the day they sinned. They were separated from God. Death is simply the separation of body and spirit. Losing grace meant that humankind lost the integration of body and soul so that there was a separation of the two.

Manalive

07-15-2010, 08:22 PM

I agree with you that evil to some is pleasure to others, of course. But, in terms of the bold, you're wrong. I'm pretty sure either A) not believing in God or B) purposely violating his Ten Commandments (the ONLY ten laws we were advised to live by) would piss Him off. Why else would there be Hell if there was no "Evil" to oppose him? You don't expect me to believe that JUST Satan lives there, do you?

And besides, to roughly quote the Bible, "everything God made was good." (You probably recognize the quote; it was mentioned earlier). If God made everything good and someone set out to destroy this "good," would that not be considered evil?

Yes, it would be evil. But that evil is not on par with God. I am only arguing that Evil is not a "being" like Good is. I have a post a few lines up that gives a more detailed response to your question.

Dodo25

07-15-2010, 08:34 PM

And I'm arguing that it's only "Yin". My example is from St. Augustine and St. Aquinas who heavily borrowed it from the Ethics of Aristotle. The Ying/yang duality is the very thing that I am arguing against. Where is that not clear at? I'm not sure I can explain it any more clearly than I already have.

You're arguing against the ying/yang duality by pointing out how even a murder has some good in it too. It appears to me as if you're arguing for it. That's what's unclear to me.

I can't completely answer that for you, my friend. I'm not a biologist nor God. And I was speaking completely about Man and his nature. But going along the lines of my argument-- the good is that the food chain stays in tact, I suppose mate? The wasp reproduces which in turn keeps the caterpillar population down. Is that textbook enough for you?

Technically, nothing in biology cares whether the caterpillar population goes down or not, it's all about the genes themselves, no romantic 'good of the species' or 'good of the ecosystem'. There are interesting examples to illustrate this, but since you don't consider non-human animals relevant, let's turn to humans.

The Bible makes it very clear that homosexuality is a sin. Sin is evil. Genes determine to a great extent an individual's sexual orientation. Studies with identical twins raised separately have shown this, people are born gay. Do you see the problem?

IceM

07-15-2010, 08:58 PM

Yes, it would be evil. But that evil is not on par with God. I am only arguing that Evil is not a "being" like Good is. I have a post a few lines up that gives a more detailed response to your question.

Alas, Evil does not have to be on par with God to still suggest He created it. Consider this: God gave us the ingredients necessary to create a vaccine for the seasonal flu; that doesn't mean the flu still isn't deadly--in some cases, the vaccine is stronger than the virus, and sometimes the contrary holds true. Just because the depths of evil aren't as expansive as those of good doesn't mean evil still has divine origins. I take your "on par with God" analogy as just a suggestion that pure good brings one closer to par with God than pure evil can distance oneself from Him. While not equal on His scale, that doesn't eliminate whether or not He created it.

Manalive

07-16-2010, 01:51 AM

Alas, Evil does not have to be on par with God to still suggest He created it. Consider this: God gave us the ingredients necessary to create a vaccine for the seasonal flu; that doesn't mean the flu still isn't deadly--in some cases, the vaccine is stronger than the virus, and sometimes the contrary holds true. Just because the depths of evil aren't as expansive as those of good doesn't mean evil still has divine origins. I take your "on par with God" analogy as just a suggestion that pure good brings one closer to par with God than pure evil can distance oneself from Him. While not equal on His scale, that doesn't eliminate whether or not He created it.

It does eliminate it. If evil is not a "thing" or a "being" then he did not create it. From a Catholic Christian perspective God did not create Evil. He only created Good. This good ranks from the Supreme Good all the way down to the lowest good. If you want to believe in dualism I suggest looking into Zoroastrianism.

You're arguing against the ying/yang duality by pointing out how even a murder has some good in it too. It appears to me as if you're arguing for it. That's what's unclear to me.

Well let's have your opinion on it mate. It seems to me from your point of view that you don't believe in ying/yang nor my assessment of Good vs. Evil. I want to hear what you believe now.

From an earlier post of mine:

Augustine observed that evil could not be chosen because there is no evil thing to choose. One can only turn away from the good, that is from a greater good to a lesser good (in Augustine's hierarchy) since all things are good. 'For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil--not because that is evil to which it turns, but because the turning itself is wicked.

You're exactly right I'm arguing that a murderer receives pleasure from the act of murder he commits. There is no innate "evil" feeling he gets from it. There is no "Good vs. Evil" battle like you get in Star Wars. No Jedi's using the force to combat evil sith lords or what have you. We all agree that murder is an evil act, but to the murderer he's still getting a "good" out of it. He gets pleasure out of it. The last I remember pleasure is a feeling that feels good-- not evil. Give me an example of an evil feeling, that is, purely 100% evil. We're arguing in religious terms though, if that's possible for you.

Technically, nothing in biology cares whether the caterpillar population goes down or not, it's all about the genes themselves, no romantic 'good of the species' or 'good of the ecosystem'. There are interesting examples to illustrate this, but since you don't consider non-human animals relevant, let's turn to humans.

Then what is your point if it doesn't matter? Don't ask me about wasps and caterpillars if it doesn't matter. If it all comes down to genes then why do you care about a religious question having to do with the origin of Evil? It sounds like a topic for a different time mate. I'm not interested in the "how" of these things, but the "why". This is why I usually hate scientific questions in regards to religious matters. They're not of the same category-- I'm not going to ask a mathematician to grade me on an English paper having to do with Shakespeare and vice versa.

The Bible makes it very clear that homosexuality is a sin. Sin is evil. Genes determine to a great extent an individual's sexual orientation. Studies with identical twins raised separately have shown this, people are born gay. Do you see the problem?

I do, brother. The problem is gay people can't reproduce. It's not a normal thing. The act of homosexuality itself is the sin. Not the homosexual. Any more bible thumpers?

Now it's my turn for a few questions: I want you to take me back to the beginning of the cosmos. And then I want you to take me back just one minute before the universe began and tell me what was there? What set this whole thing into motion? I want something scientific and factual. I'd like to see the man behind the curtain-- or I mean the evolution that started this whole existence into being. What started this evolution into motion? Can biology or any science answer this for me? What was there before there was an organism that was aware that it was alive or that it functioned?

IceM

07-16-2010, 02:23 AM

It does eliminate it. If evil is not a "thing" or a "being" then he did not create it. From a Catholic Christian perspective God did not create Evil. He only created Good. This good ranks from the Supreme Good all the way down to the lowest good. If you want to believe in dualism I suggest looking into Zoroastrianism.

You're exactly right I'm arguing that a murderer receives pleasure from the act of murder he commits. There is no innate "evil" feeling he gets from it. There is no "Good vs. Evil" battle like you get in Star Wars. No Jedi's using the force to combat evil sith lords or what have you. We all agree that murder is an evil act, but to the murderer he's still getting a "good" out of it. He gets pleasure out of it. The last I remember pleasure is a feeling that feels good-- not evil. Give me an example of an evil feeling, that is, purely 100% evil. We're arguing in religious terms though, if that's possible for you.

Now it's my turn for a few questions: I want you to take me back to the beginning of the cosmos. And then I want you to take me back just one minute before the universe began and tell me what was there? What set this whole thing into motion? I want something scientific and factual. I'd like to see the man behind the curtain-- or I mean the evolution that started this whole existence into being. What started this evolution into motion? Can biology or any science answer this for me? What was there before there was an organism that was aware that it was alive or that it functioned?

I start (read: create) a fire. The flame creates heat. I get warm. Suppose I put out the fire. The heat goes away. I get cold. By creating the fire, I create the possibility of warmth, as well as the possibility of becoming cold if I put out my fire.

Then, I donate money to a homeless person in dire need. He uses the money to buy essentials. I did a good thing. Suppose later I walk down the street and kill a man. I have taken his life and scarred his family. That is evil. It doesn't matter whether or not I find "good" or "pleasure" in this action, because, in the eyes of the 10 Commandments, I have defied God's laws, which is evil.

Understand my analogies? By creating heat, you create the possibility of being cold. By creating light, you create the possibility of finding darkness. By creating good, you create the opportunity to defy good (evil). God gave Man ten laws (the ten commandments); God also created Hell. People who break the religious law go to Hell because they have sinned. If everyone were "good," nobody would go to Hell, because, even if people committed lesser goods or minimal goods, they were still "good" actions, and would not be deserving of eternal damnation. To say God did not create evil would essentially say there is no Hell because there would be no need for eternal damnation.

And in regards to the "big bang" questioning, you're trying to draw this argument to a draw. Just as you ask what was there the moment before the explosion, I could ask you how God just came to be; and we both know our reasoning would seem radical to each other but perfectly sane to us. Your ability to defend your point has proven itself limited far more beyond mine; and while you'll probably claim faith in a higher power as the total answer, it doesn't answer anything here. If God, as you claim, created the Supreme Good, He also created the Supreme Evil. Satan exists, and he didn't create himself. Sin exists. The ten commandments present laws that can easily be broken by those who disregard them. And if any of those two prior statements are simply considered "lesser goods," then there is nothing barring us from Heaven, because no matter how petty the goodness may seem, it is still good nonetheless.

I respect your opinions and everything you've said, but your Supreme Goodness argument doesn't explain Hell, Sin, what happens with the violation of the 10 Commandments, Satan, or Adam and Eve's banishment (everything considered evil in Christian theology). It appears as if you're claiming to believe in a one-sided coin.

Manalive

07-16-2010, 02:47 AM

I start (read: create) a fire. The flame creates heat. I get warm. Suppose I put out the fire. The heat goes away. I get cold. By creating the fire, I create the possibility of warmth, as well as the possibility of becoming cold if I put out my fire.

Then, I donate money to a homeless person in dire need. He uses the money to buy essentials. I did a good thing. Suppose later I walk down the street and kill a man. I have taken his life and scarred his family. That is evil. It doesn't matter whether or not I find "good" or "pleasure" in this action, because, in the eyes of the 10 Commandments, I have defied God's laws, which is evil.

Understand my analogies? By creating heat, you create the possibility of being cold. By creating light, you create the possibility of finding darkness. By creating good, you create the opportunity to defy good (evil). God gave Man ten laws (the ten commandments); God also created Hell. People who break the religious law go to Hell because they have sinned. If everyone were "good," nobody would go to Hell, because, even if people committed lesser goods or minimal goods, they were still "good" actions, and would not be deserving of eternal damnation. To say God did not create evil would essentially say there is no Hell because there would be no need for eternal damnation.

And in regards to the "big bang" questioning, you're trying to draw this argument to a draw. Just as you ask what was there the moment before the explosion, I could ask you how God just came to be; and we both know our reasoning would seem radical to each other but perfectly sane to us. Your ability to defend your point has proven itself limited far more beyond mine; and while you'll probably claim faith in a higher power as the total answer, it doesn't answer anything here. If God, as you claim, created the Supreme Good, He also created the Supreme Evil. Satan exists, and he didn't create himself. Sin exists. The ten commandments present laws that can easily be broken by those who disregard them. And if any of those two prior statements are simply considered "lesser goods," then there is nothing barring us from Heaven, because no matter how petty the goodness may seem, it is still good nonetheless.

I respect your opinions and everything you've said, but your Supreme Goodness argument doesn't explain Hell, Sin, what happens with the violation of the 10 Commandments, Satan, or Adam and Eve's banishment (everything considered evil in Christian theology). It appears as if you're claiming to believe in a one-sided coin.

Your argument doesn't explain free will. God cannot be good if he knowingly created evil. Simple as that.

God created Satan. He gave him free will. Satan used that free will and he defied God.

I'm only arguing against the "Star Wars" theme of the nature of Good and Evil. God is good, if you turn away from God, you sin. If you are not repentant you are damned. You cannot go off and "join the dark side" and then start living an "Evil" life full of only purely evil things. The turning away from God to something lesser is what is wicked (or evil). That's where Hell and sin come in.

And thank you for answering the question I posed to him. Can you tell me what point you were talking about in regards to this question? You said "Your ability to defend your point has proven itself limited far more beyond mine". What point of yours are you talking about? I posed to him that question so he could give me a better reason to believe in Atheistic evolution rather than God. I'm sorry if you got some other message out of it.

And I do believe in a one-sided coin, my friend. It's either God or it's nothing. :cheers2:

(And by nothing I mean hell, I'm not the annihilationist/Jehovah Witness type)

blazeofglory

07-16-2010, 03:18 AM

This is an illogical and immature idea that free will exists. If God is really powerful and permeates all animate and inanimate substances in the universe why he does not change the mind of Satan. Is it just a cosmic or divine drama and we all are puppets in the Hand of the Great Heavenly Father? How do you define or relate free will logically? Do external factors not influence the way we behave? Can man always stand by ethical and religious codes of conduct and behave immaculately? This is one of the tools atheists or those who stick to organized religions trying to defend themselves in the age of reason and science in point of fact. There are other religious theorists in other nations who totally subscribe to determinism. In Hinduism they believe in determinism and man sins because his destiny overpowers him. In the Mahabharata, Krishna explains to Arjuna precisely when the latter wanted to withdraw from the battlefield since killing a Grandfather, a Guru, an Uncle is a great sin. Arjuna was firm and not to give on anything. Finally Krishna illuminated his mind through his divine theories and stated that neither Arjuna can slay a person nor anybody will be slain. There is a divine hand in every act. Does this not endorse the divine play and we mortals are just tolls? Where is your free will gone?

Dodo25

07-16-2010, 07:20 AM

You're exactly right I'm arguing that a murderer receives pleasure from the act of murder he commits. There is no innate "evil" feeling he gets from it. There is no "Good vs. Evil" battle like you get in Star Wars. No Jedi's using the force to combat evil sith lords or what have you. We all agree that murder is an evil act, but to the murderer he's still getting a "good" out of it. He gets pleasure out of it. The last I remember pleasure is a feeling that feels good-- not evil. Give me an example of an evil feeling, that is, purely 100% evil. We're arguing in religious terms though, if that's possible for you.

Yes it's possible, I can hypothetically assume that the Bible is true. I already said sin is evil, and if god creates humans that are born homosexual, they're evil in nature. Perversely, if they fall in love, normally god's favorite feeling, they are being evil and according to the Bible, need to reject this love. If I may quickly jump out of my hypothetical assumption, it is God's hatred against homosexuals that is evil. Or his reward for people like Ghandi who don't believe in god (eternal hellfire).

Then what is your point if it doesn't matter? Don't ask me about wasps and caterpillars if it doesn't matter. If it all comes down to genes then why do you care about a religious question having to do with the origin of Evil? It sounds like a topic for a different time mate. I'm not interested in the "how" of these things, but the "why". This is why I usually hate scientific questions in regards to religious matters. They're not of the same category-- I'm not going to ask a mathematician to grade me on an English paper having to do with Shakespeare and vice versa.

It doesn't matter to me, because I don't hold views about a benevolent creator. It should matter to you because it contradicts some important passages from the Bible. And saying 'religion and science aren't the same category' is of course true, yet your having it the wrong way around. Science has the evidence on its side, so religion can't just ignore science and the implications it brings.

I do, brother. The problem is gay people can't reproduce. It's not a normal thing. The act of homosexuality itself is the sin. Not the homosexual. Any more bible thumpers?

Still you contend that god 'created' beings with permanently evil thoughts. This would really bother me if I was a Christian. "It's not a normal thing." So?? First of all, many primates do it too, look at bonobos, they have sex with any other bonobo pretty much (I don't mean this offensively towards bonobos by the way). Additionally, what exactly is 'normal'? I recently saw a chimp forcing a toad/frog to have oral sex with it. Is that normal? Even if was 'unnatural', so what? Nature can't tell us what is ethical, think back to the wasps. We use condom, a very unnatural thing. Yet are you seriously going to advocate banning condoms? I know some Catholics do, and the result is millions of people in Africa dying of HIV, and the population explosion just brings more suffering to this world.

Now it's my turn for a few questions: I want you to take me back to the beginning of the cosmos. And then I want you to take me back just one minute before the universe began and tell me what was there? What set this whole thing into motion? I want something scientific and factual. I'd like to see the man behind the curtain-- or I mean the evolution that started this whole existence into being. What started this evolution into motion? Can biology or any science answer this for me? What was there before there was an organism that was aware that it was alive or that it functioned?

Fair enough. The term 'minute' doesn't have a bearing before the big bang, for time as we know it did not exist. I don't know what exactly happened, the thing is, I don't claim I do.

My hypothesis (as it is shared by many particle physicists working on it) is that it started as fluctuations of energy. Matter and anti-matter annihilating itself most of the time, yet in statistically rare circumstances, there is not enough anti-matter and it produces a big bang. The name of the phenomenon I'm talking about is the 'Casimir Effect'. Even a 'perfect' vacuum is not entirely empty, there are particles popping in and out of existance all the time. A better way to describe it is if we assume that 'zero' or 'nothing' just doesn't exist apart from pure mathematics. There is always this quantum action going on.

Anyway, somehow, and I'm admitting I have no idea how or why, this set off the big bang. One out of billions of big bangs (and for this there is actually some scientific (or mathematical in string-theory) evidence, albeit not conclusive one (yet). The reason why are universe is life-friendly is thus only a matter of statistics. There are probably billions of dead universes, we just happen to be in one that permits life, for we're here talking about it.

I admitted 'I don't know', so why am I satisfied with this answer? I'm not 100% satisfied, I would love to know more. Yet I know for sure that God doesn't solve the problem.

How could you think postulating an incredibly complex conscious being would solve the problem? It is much easier to explain where the universe came from
(and even that is hard) than where God came from. God, with all his powers, is statistically improbable to 'just happen' to the highest degree. The beginn must have been something simple (relatively speaking of course). If we only need to postulate matter and energy, that is one thing compared to consciousness itself. The human mind wonders 'why are we here', 'why are we conscious?' and then postulates another super-conscious being to solve the problem? Not only this, it also took away all the time for evolution the human mind had, and postulates consciousness from the very beginning. This didn't solve the problem at all, it made it much worse.

IceM

07-16-2010, 12:53 PM

Your argument doesn't explain free will. God cannot be good if he knowingly created evil. Simple as that.

God created Satan. He gave him free will. Satan used that free will and he defied God.

I'm only arguing against the "Star Wars" theme of the nature of Good and Evil. God is good, if you turn away from God, you sin. If you are not repentant you are damned. You cannot go off and "join the dark side" and then start living an "Evil" life full of only purely evil things. The turning away from God to something lesser is what is wicked (or evil). That's where Hell and sin come in.

And thank you for answering the question I posed to him. Can you tell me what point you were talking about in regards to this question? You said "Your ability to defend your point has proven itself limited far more beyond mine". What point of yours are you talking about? I posed to him that question so he could give me a better reason to believe in Atheistic evolution rather than God. I'm sorry if you got some other message out of it.

And I do believe in a one-sided coin, my friend. It's either God or it's nothing. :cheers2:

(And by nothing I mean hell, I'm not the annihilationist/Jehovah Witness type)

In regards to the science question first: your point was to explain scientifically that the big bang is more fact-based than God's creationism. My point was to say that, you know this cannot be factually proven, and in asking this question, are trying to cause a stalemate in this debate. Because, just as easily, I could ask you a similar series of questions that have no definitive answer, and we would be gasping at air. Our answers would seem logical to ourselves and irrational to each other.

I'll be brief. As you say, turning away from God is evil, but it isn't descending into something lesser--like a lesser good--but instead an evil. In the eyes of the sinner defying the Ten Commandments, he is doing good; but it is not the sinner who decides his afterlife destination--meaning, he cannot decide to murder his entire life and send himself to Heaven. That judgment is reserved for God. The sinner is not doing lesser goods, because that would still be "good" and worthy of entrance into Heaven, but evil, meriting his damnation in Hell.

I will defend you on free will because blaze has a misinterpretation. I consider free will as an airplane flying over a highway and seeing the infinite number of roads stemming from it; just because God knows the results for each of the infinite paths you could take doesn't mean that he forces you anywhere. You choose your own path. He knows the consequences. The Sisters of Fate aren't weaving your destiny.

However, as I have BEEN saying, by creating good (and the opportunity to do evil), you create evil. Evil does not have to be as equal as good in order for God to have created it. It was still created nonetheless.

hellsapoppin

07-24-2010, 11:27 PM

''This is an illogical and immature idea that free will exists. ''

We had a discussion on this before -- if free will exists then a fetus can walk away from an abortion, victims could have walked away from Hitler's death camps, and slaves could walk away from slavery. They didn't because free will does not exist. But if people choose to believe in the myth of free will that is their choice, not a fact.

LMK

07-25-2010, 06:34 PM

If one is talking theistically about God, either as one God, or the conglomeration of pantheistic Gods, then I would suggest, Yes, God the creator, created all, excluding nothing. However, this can quickly turn circular should one choose to make it so.

Free will, in this poster's opinion, does not indicate super power that allows me to will a bullet away from it's aim and trajectory, or that one can choose to fly.

Is it better to have good intensions or for end result to be good?
Is one person better than another if they live the same life of loving, giving, kindness; even if one is a believer and the other is not?

There are endless questions that can be asked similarly, and just because they can be asked, does that mean we should ask them?

Manalive

07-27-2010, 01:21 AM

I'll be brief. As you say, turning away from God is evil, but it isn't descending into something lesser--like a lesser good--but instead an evil. In the eyes of the sinner defying the Ten Commandments, he is doing good; but it is not the sinner who decides his afterlife destination--meaning, he cannot decide to murder his entire life and send himself to Heaven. That judgment is reserved for God. The sinner is not doing lesser goods, because that would still be "good" and worthy of entrance into Heaven, but evil, meriting his damnation in Hell.

However, as I have BEEN saying, by creating good (and the opportunity to do evil), you create evil. Evil does not have to be as equal as good in order for God to have created it. It was still created nonetheless.

Everything God has created is inherently good. Since evil is not good, it cannot have been "created" by God. There is no way around this in Church theology. Evil is not a "thing". It does not have being, and it doesn't "exist". Evil is a privation of something that should be present but is not. Sin is not directly choosing something bad, but it is choosing a lesser good when there is another greater good that should have been chosen. In your example the sinner doing the lesser goods would merit hell because he chose the "lesser good" rather than the greater good. He didn't chose "evil" as a option in equal contrast to good because "evil" does not have a being.

IceM

07-27-2010, 01:41 AM

Everything God has created is inherently good. Since evil is not good, it cannot have been "created" by God. There is no way around this in Church theology. Evil is not a "thing". It does not have being, and it doesn't "exist". Evil is a privation of something that should be present but is not. Sin is not directly choosing something bad, but it is choosing a lesser good when there is another greater good that should have been chosen. In your example the sinner doing the lesser goods would merit hell because he chose the "lesser good" rather than the greater good. He didn't chose "evil" as a option in equal contrast to good because "evil" does not have a being.

In Church theology, there is also no way around the story of Adam and Eve, even though it'd be genetically impossible for every known ethnicity to derive from two people.

God created the Ten Commandments because He saw these laws as "inherently good." Defying these laws allow the felon to turn away from God. He (the sinner) has turned away from God. He has turned away from good. He is evil. After all, if an arsonist ran through the rain forest destroying what God considered "inherently good," he would be committing an "inherent evil:" turning away from God.

Manalive

08-05-2010, 12:23 AM

In Church theology, there is also no way around the story of Adam and Eve, even though it'd be genetically impossible for every known ethnicity to derive from two people.

Yes, regardless of what secular scientists may speculate about human origins, the Catholic Church believes in Adam and Eve. Some take it literal; some take it metaphysically. That said, I don't see the "Out of Africa" theory as genetically impossible-- but again-- these are natural sciences theories; not theology. As long as a Catholic believes in the "Fall of Man" and "Original sin", then a literary, metaphysical interpretation of Genesis is permissible. Suffice to say, Catholic theology provides a structure in which the belief in Adam and Eve makes sense, given the foundational system in which the question arises. This is all I will say on the matter, the question isn't relevant to "Did God create Evil".

God created the Ten Commandments because He saw these laws as "inherently good." Defying these laws allow the felon to turn away from God. He (the sinner) has turned away from God. He has turned away from good. He is evil. After all, if an arsonist ran through the rain forest destroying what God considered "inherently good," he would be committing an "inherent evil:" turning away from God.

Breakthrough! (If we agree that "inherent evil" is the turning away from God, not the turning to the "dark side/Evil".)

By the way: are you some secular evolutionist or a quasi-Christian of some sort? Your initial posts on specific Church doctrine led me to believe you were a Protestant. However, your recent posts aren't quite of the Christian viewpoint.

blazeofglory

08-05-2010, 07:59 AM

In fact God is the maker of everything according to some theologies and since God created everything how come everything does not include evil. If God is not the creator who is? Maybe God created evil on purpose to punish humans. Is this a good motive or right thing to do for God? Why God created us and wants us in troubles?

caddy_caddy

08-05-2010, 10:26 AM

God created everything including evil.
Well Haribol there is a wisdom behind everything .

blazeofglory

08-05-2010, 11:19 AM

If there is wisdom behind everything, is the disaster, the flood in Pakistan that killed 1500 people has some wisdom? Is God right to kill the Innocent? Is God right to punish the poor and reward the culprit? This is hard to understand and in fact I fail to understand.

Mother Teresa, the indisputable person of great charity at the end of her life questioned the very existence of benevolent God. She famously said that if there was a god, and if the God was merciful too, why there were so many poor people and why the few rich and corrupt are advantaged in the kingdom of God. She failed to understand this.

Some adherents of God advocate that the world was created by God and all that God did was for the benefit of his creatures. But this is untrue.

There is no cosmic justice and the mighty have the dominance over the weak in this world.

We follow a particular faith based on our superstitious notion of God. We have Adam, Eve, Abraham, Gabriel and the like. In other religions there are Allah, Buddha, Vishnu. There is Confucianism, Taoisms, Jainism, Zen and the like and all have their own theologies and they fabricate their own sets of theories. As everyone has his own ego, so does every religious group has their own dogmas.

Therefore I question the very basis of creation and I am not convinced that any bigotry's ideas can be right at all. I infer that Darwinism is more convincing. Religious opinions have fragmented and annihilated the human race than irreligious opinions. If there was no religion the world would have behaved better. At least there would have not been fundamentalists who force indoctrinate people to behave violently.

Paulclem

08-05-2010, 03:18 PM

I disagree with your bit about the world being worse for religion. You said that there is no cosmic justice, and I agree. It is a dog eat dog world, and religion is just one tool that is used by the exploiters of power. It's not the religion or the truly religious themselves, but the power hungry and influential people who use it to their own ends. The world would be a poorer place without the massive amount of unacknowledged work done by religious people.

On the other hand, I too have always had a problem with a creator God, and couldn't believe in one.

blazeofglory

08-06-2010, 03:45 AM

At times evil is deemed heroically and we sanctions it a great amount of authority and power in point of fact and at times keep it equaling God or alongside God. Even if we have God to protect us from the attack of evil yet we fear the presence of evil. We cannot think about the presence of God without the symmetrical presence of Evil

TurquoiseSunset

08-06-2010, 05:10 AM

Nope, God created free will...evil was a choice made by the fallen angels and man...

blazeofglory

08-06-2010, 05:20 AM

Nope, God created free will...evil was a choice made by the fallen angels and man...

This is trash. The idea of Freewill is the invention of some medieval Christians. Man is a victim of circumstances and no matter what conscience you have that does not work at the end of the day. No matter what amounts of morals, ethics your Christian sages instill in your mind under a certain situation you will just behave instinctively, not conscientiously. Freewill is drivel. You are under a pang of hunger and thirst and there is food and drinks near by and your Christian doctrines may warn you against the stuffs but your natural instincts or the powers of the hunger or thirst is too strong to be subdues you will consume against your canons of Freewill

TurquoiseSunset

08-06-2010, 05:54 AM

blazeofglory

08-06-2010, 05:58 AM

Paulclem

08-06-2010, 07:50 AM

Nope, God created free will...evil was a choice made by the fallen angels and man...

Hi Turquoise

The problem I see with this is that if a creator God creates a universe, how can anyhting that occurrs in that universe be the responsibility of others? The physics, the geology, the forms , the ideas -etc - must all be created or their potential created.

blazeofglory

08-07-2010, 12:24 PM

Firstly, your tone is unnecessary. Secondly, how dare you call my beliefs trash? You don't have to agree, but you can respect me none the less.

I believe you always have a choice, faith or no faith. Sometimes you're between a rock and a hard place. When something happens that is beyond our control ("victims of circumstance") you can still choose how to react to the event. The God I believe in is not so unforgiving as you seem to think.

Besides that, are you trying to say that since there's no free will that people are not morally responsible for their actions????

My friend everyone’s tone counts here and is therefore necessary and you can comment upon my ideas. Everybody is at liberty to express himself or self. Not necessary that everybody must stick to your particular sets of ideas someone installed in your mind. You might have been indoctrinated into some dogmas and you cannot kind of rise above that canons, maybe that run through your veins. Try to keep yourself at a distance from all these doctrines things will be as clear to you as day instantly. You must first control your rage and cool or else your preoccupations will triumph over you and that provoked you to use “how dare you”. This is not necessary , is it?

Leland Gaunt

08-07-2010, 01:00 PM

This is not necessary , is it?
Well when looking at your previous post, calling his beliefs trash was also not necessary. The rest of your post would have been perfectly fine, adding trash only brings a level of disrespect which is not at all helpful in a civil conversation.

you will just behave instinctively
Humans do not have instincts. We cannot behave instinctively.

You are under a pang of hunger and thirst and there is food and drinks near by and your Christian doctrines may warn you against the stuffs but your natural instincts or the powers of the hunger or thirst is too strong to be subdues you will consume against your canons of Freewill
These are called needs. You need food, yes? So your body puts you in a state of bodily tension, a drive, to motivate you to satisfy your need. But, humans are capable of ignoring these drives. As soon as you feel thirsty, do you set off to find something to quench your thirst? Or are you able to put it off for later? Ever hear of fasting? An instinctual animal is completely incapable of fasting. I suppose you could try to argue against free will using determinism, but recent scientific evidence has illuminated a certain randomness within nature.

blazeofglory

08-08-2010, 12:09 AM

[QUOTE=Leland Gaunt;934993]Well when looking at your previous post, calling his beliefs trash was also not necessary. The rest of your post would have been perfectly fine, adding trash only brings a level of disrespect which is not at all helpful in a civil conversation.

Humans do not have instincts. We cannot behave instinctively.

QUOTE]

I apologize for all this!!!

IceM

08-08-2010, 12:57 AM

Yes, regardless of what secular scientists may speculate about human origins, the Catholic Church believes in Adam and Eve. Some take it literal; some take it metaphysically. That said, I don't see the "Out of Africa" theory as genetically impossible-- but again-- these are natural sciences theories; not theology. As long as a Catholic believes in the "Fall of Man" and "Original sin", then a literary, metaphysical interpretation of Genesis is permissible. Suffice to say, Catholic theology provides a structure in which the belief in Adam and Eve makes sense, given the foundational system in which the question arises. This is all I will say on the matter, the question isn't relevant to "Did God create Evil".

Breakthrough! (If we agree that "inherent evil" is the turning away from God, not the turning to the "dark side/Evil".)

By the way: are you some secular evolutionist or a quasi-Christian of some sort? Your initial posts on specific Church doctrine led me to believe you were a Protestant. However, your recent posts aren't quite of the Christian viewpoint.

I raised the Adam and Eve issue to show how "Church Theology" can be proven wrong. It is genetically impossible for our diversification of ethnicities to arise from two people. Yes, this doesn't pertain to "Did God Create Evil" directly, but seen as a comparison to the faults of "Church Theology," it can be used as an example for my point.

It increasingly sounds like you're willing to pardon any illogical notion as long as its origins are Biblical. You say the "Out of Africa" notion is permissable as long as a Catholic believes. In any other realm of study other than religion, this is impossible. It would be dismissed as illogical. Yet you're willing to accept it as truth because it was in the Bible?

My point throughout my posts has been that, if God created good, He created the existence of the other extreme. One who commits to blocking or destroying goodness is evil, not a lesser good. And if free will exists, God gave Man the chance to commit evil. Because He is responsible for all creation, He is responsible for evil. This doesn't discredit God, or refute His existence--it justs demonstrates that perhaps the strictly Biblical version of a Creator is antiquated and slightly inaccurate. I'm still waiting for a reason why this idea itself can't be valid.

To answer your final question: I grew up a Catholic and am now atheist. I typically waver between atheism and non-denominational approaches to God. Hopefully that's sufficient.

IceM

08-08-2010, 01:00 AM

Nope, God created free will...evil was a choice made by the fallen angels and man...

Man would be unable to choose evil if it were not created.

Manalive

08-08-2010, 01:50 AM

I raised the Adam and Eve issue to show how "Church Theology" can be proven wrong. It is genetically impossible for our diversification of ethnicities to arise from two people. Yes, this doesn't pertain to "Did God Create Evil" directly, but seen as a comparison to the faults of "Church Theology," it can be used as an example for my point.

It increasingly sounds like you're willing to pardon any illogical notion as long as its origins are Biblical. You say the "Out of Africa" notion is permissable as long as a Catholic believes. In any other realm of study other than religion, this is impossible. It would be dismissed as illogical. Yet you're willing to accept it as truth because it was in the Bible?

It's illogical to believe the "Out of Africa" theory or it's illogical to be Catholic and believe the "Out of Africa" theory? The Bible is filled with allegory and the Church accepts different interpretations of Biblical stories as long as the metaphysical truths do not conflict with the literal truths. I.E. Murder is a sin, there is no different interpretation of this. Jonah and the whale is a parable "instructing the Jews to go out of their comfort zone and share their faith with other nations". That's one way of looking at the story and it's valid because the truths of the story aren't contradicted by that belief. The truths of the story isn't necessarily that Jonah was in a whale.

My point throughout my posts has been that, if God created good, He created the existence of the other extreme. One who commits to blocking or destroying goodness is evil, not a lesser good. And if free will exists, God gave Man the chance to commit evil. Because He is responsible for all creation, He is responsible for evil. This doesn't discredit God, or refute His existence--it justs demonstrates that perhaps the strictly Biblical version of a Creator is antiquated and slightly inaccurate. I'm still waiting for a reason why this idea itself can't be valid.

It's a valid argument, but it's not Catholic. Theologically: can you give me a purely intrinsically evil feeling? A feeling-- not an act. We all agree that murder is evil. But it's not a feeling, it's an act. The murderer is "feeling" something, what intrinsically evil feeling is he feeling? Pleasure? Pleasure, in and of it's self, isn't something that is usually considered evil. Can give me a feeling that is, in and of itself, "Evil"?

From the Thomistic perspective, evil can generally be understood as the absence or lacking of a good, i.e., the absence of some trait that perfects or completes a thing’s being. For example, blindness is a physical evil because it entails the absence of sight and prevents the completion of a person’s physical constitution. To say that blindness is a physical evil, however, does not imply that individuals who are blind are morally bad or lead less valuable lives; only that they lack a physical capability that normally accompanies a complete human life. Moral evil, on the other hand, concerns the disordered nature or defect of a voluntary action (also known as a human act) that in some way fails to correspond to the will of God or proper human fulfillment. For St. Thomas Aquinas, every morally evil act is good in a certain respect, but is a deficient good and so is evil simply (see Summa Theologica I-II Question 18, Article 1, reply to 1). The greater the absence of perfection or completion, the greater the evil. In other words, the more the act fails to correspond to the will of God or proper human fulfillment, the more evil it is. It follows that some evil acts are worse than others.

For an appropriate understanding of the concept of intrinsic evil, one must appreciate first the Catholic understanding of goodness. From the perspective of the Catholic moral tradition, in order for a human act to be morally good, it must be good in all three of its aspects: in its deliberately chosen object, in the agent’s circumstantial intention and in the circumstances of the act. In order for a human act to be considered morally evil it need be defective in only one of these three aspects.Intrinsic Evil (http://www.ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=168&Itemid=172)

Leland Gaunt

08-08-2010, 04:01 AM

I apologize for all this!!!
Good. Still waiting on a thank you.:toetap05:

TurquoiseSunset

08-10-2010, 08:40 AM

Who indoctrinated this idea first speaking historically? Let me know the history of this idea? I heard some biblical sages in the medieval age. Is this idea not just common to Biblical society only? I do not think it reaches beyond that frontier

The concept of free will, or at least that it exists, is not exclusive to “Biblical society”, but is part of other religions as well. It’s not just a religious concept, but scientific and ethical as well.

Hi Turquoise

The problem I see with this is that if a creator God creates a universe, how can anyhting that occurrs in that universe be the responsibility of others? The physics, the geology, the forms , the ideas -etc - must all be created or their potential created.

I see what you are saying. I don’t think God created evil per se, as evil really isn’t a thing, but a concept and I also think it existed, as an concept, before the creation of the universe. Evil is the absence of good. However, God allows evil, in order for free will to exist. So obviously he created us with the potential to be evil, His idea being that we have to choose... I would therefore not say he created evil, but that really depends on one’s definition of create, I guess. That is also why I said that evil was a choice made by man, etc., so I then also don’t believe that God is responsible for evil, because man can still choose to be good, i.e. man is responsible for his actions none the less. Does that make sense? I always know what I mean, but I’m not always sure I’m able to express it properly :D ...maybe I should have phrased it like this to begin with, lol.

My friend everyone’s tone counts here and is therefore necessary and you can comment upon my ideas. Everybody is at liberty to express himself or self. Not necessary that everybody must stick to your particular sets of ideas someone installed in your mind. You might have been indoctrinated into some dogmas and you cannot kind of rise above that canons, maybe that run through your veins. Try to keep yourself at a distance from all these doctrines things will be as clear to you as day instantly. You must first control your rage and cool or else your preoccupations will triumph over you and that provoked you to use “how dare you”. This is not necessary , is it?

Hon, I do not have a problem with controlling my rage, thanks, but I still do not take kindly to people being so disrespectful. Otherwise, apology accepted.

Well when looking at your previous post, calling his beliefs trash was also not necessary. The rest of your post would have been perfectly fine, adding trash only brings a level of disrespect which is not at all helpful in a civil conversation.

Humans do not have instincts. We cannot behave instinctively.

These are called needs. You need food, yes? So your body puts you in a state of bodily tension, a drive, to motivate you to satisfy your need. But, humans are capable of ignoring these drives. As soon as you feel thirsty, do you set off to find something to quench your thirst? Or are you able to put it off for later? Ever hear of fasting? An instinctual animal is completely incapable of fasting. I suppose you could try to argue against free will using determinism, but recent scientific evidence has illuminated a certain randomness within nature.

Good. Still waiting on a thank you.:toetap05:

Lol, thanks Leland. I usually only check Litnet during the day, on weekdays (work days), and it happened to be a long weekend for SA (National Women’s Day) so that’s why I’m only posting today :)

caddy_caddy

08-10-2010, 11:18 AM

What about floods , earthquakes, and the like . Isn't that evil created by God ?This has nothing to do with free will , or human choice.

Leland Gaunt

08-10-2010, 11:28 AM

Lol, thanks Leland
Well, to be honest, my "waiting for a thank you" comment was directed at blaze.:p

But, for what its worth, your welcome.

The concept of free will, or at least that it exists, is not exclusive to “Biblical society”, but is part of other religions as well. It’s not just a religious concept, but scientific and ethical as well.
Quite right.

I see what you are saying. I don’t think God created evil per se, as evil really isn’t a thing, but a concept and I also think it existed, as an concept, before the creation of the universe. Evil is the absence of good. However, God allows evil, in order for free will to exist. So obviously he created us with the potential to be evil, His idea being that we have to choose... I would therefore not say he created evil, but that really depends on one’s definition of create, I guess. That is also why I said that evil was a choice made by man, etc., so I then also don’t believe that God is responsible for evil, because man can still choose to be good, i.e. man is responsible for his actions none the less. Does that make sense? I always know what I mean, but I’m not always sure I’m able to express it properly ...maybe I should have phrased it like this to begin with, lol.
Well, a concept requires the existence of someone/thing, to come up with it. It is just an abstract idea, so who had the idea of evil? The existence of concepts, before the universe, means to me that God was doing some thinking beforehand. Sorry, if I'm not making sense.:(

romeyblack

08-19-2010, 07:31 PM

God created paradise and man and lucifer violated paradise. God created heaven and earth, angels and man, then had to create the hell to contain those angels who thought of themselves like unto God. Satan used that same argument and convinced God's most precious creation to violate His statutes and so man was doom to an earthly existance until his death. Finally, God gave us free will and we (MAN) freely and willfully choose to observe his commandments or not too.

Redzeppelin

08-26-2010, 02:28 PM

What about floods , earthquakes, and the like . Isn't that evil created by God ?This has nothing to do with free will , or human choice.

God created a world that functions in a certain way - the things you listed are natural occurences; they are not "evil" created by God, they are simply part of living in a world constructed like this one - a world that has been contaminated by evil.

Adam and Eve's use of their free will resulted in all of creation being negatively affected by evil; as such, these catastrophic occurences are the result of original sin - not active, deliberate actions by God (per se).

caddy_caddy

09-01-2010, 01:47 PM

God created a world that functions in a certain way

the things you listed are natural occurences;

And natural occurences function in an evil way according to His own will .

they are not "evil" created by God, they are simply part of living in a world constructed like this one - a world that has been contaminated by evil.

No , God states clearly that He uses the natural occurances as a force of destruction and ruin .And destruction and ruin is evil. I can't conceive what happened in Pakistan as a result of the orginal sin . When I see what happened , I think that God created evil and He is capable of evil , too much evil .

not active, deliberate actions by God (per se).
So deliberate actions of whom , if not He ?

Redzeppelin

09-01-2010, 02:26 PM

And natural occurences function in an evil way according to His own will

No , God states clearly that He uses the natural occurances as a force of destruction and ruin .And destruction and ruin is evil. I can't conceive what happened in Pakistan as a result of the orginal sin . When I see what happened , I think that God created evil and He is capable of evil , too much evil ..

I believe the thread question was "Did God create evil?" God created nothing evil; He created beings with moral free will who could chose evil if they so desired. Once sin entered the world, it contaminated all of God's creation.

Would you mind refreshing my memory as to where God said that? Thanks.

Natural disasters cannot be "evil" because they have no moral will. If God allows a natural disaster to occur, then He intends some good to come of it - whether we understand what that good might be is not His concern (just as your parents may not worry if you don't get why you need to finish your vegetables and not just gorge yourself on sweets).

Whether you can "conveive" of something has no bearing on whether it is possible or not. If we are to speak of sin, and God, then we must also speak of a devil, who has placed himself in opposition to God and who - according to the Bible - seeks the destruction of God's creations. There are many explanations as to why destructive things happen in this world. God may choose to use a natural disaster to accomplish His will, but you cannot say with any certainty that ALL bad things that happen are His chosen will. There are plenty of things God allows that are not His express will. I do not believe it is His will that people get tortured, raped, molested or wasted away through terrible disease. Can He use those things to accomplish His will? Yes - but that's not the same as "willing" them to happen. If we accept the existence of God, we must also accept the existence of a spiritual dimension within which other forces besides God are active.

You may think as you wish, but since our only knowledge of God comes through scripture, you'll have to show where the Bible backs you up; as the definitive description of the character of God, only IT can convict Him; our own opinions and "understanding" are merely our expressed preferences or speculations.

So deliberate actions of whom , if not He ?

The universe works at the will of God; part of how it works is encoded into His design; in the absence of sin, the world would not suffer the disasters it does (but I'm speculating - maybe it would - but either way, God would not purposefully put His creatures in harm's way unless there was a larger purpose to accomplish). What we have to remember is that our value system and God's are not identical. While we care about this life, God cares about our eternity - and, as such, He will make decisions that are focused on where we spend forever - not just in how we spend now.

hellsapoppin

10-18-2010, 06:51 PM

What about floods , earthquakes, and the like . Isn't that evil created by God ?This has nothing to do with free will , or human choice.

In law these are called 'acts of god'. Assuming the existence of one, there can be no other source for it as humanity has no control over the prevention natural disaster.

''Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? '' Amos 3:6

''Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?'' Lamentations 3:38

It would be the high point of lunacy to blame humanity for the malefactions of an evil god. But then, many people would call Christianity just that.

hellsapoppin

10-19-2010, 11:01 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-dCbFozY-Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_52o2h7TzBg&feature=related

chrissy613

01-09-2011, 02:26 AM

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

weltanschauung

01-09-2011, 07:09 AM

good and evil arent absolute concepts. these are concepts that can only have any meaning when contrasted against a background.
god, the universe, whatever you wanna call it, cannot have created good or evil, for he does not know what that is.
why is it that people still have the infantile thought that the demiurg of this reality is a big PERSON, with personality traits and personal beliefs. for ****s sake, people.
god does not have a will, god does not have an intention, god does not desire, god does not test, GOD IS NOT A PERSON, these are HUMAN TRAITS. god isnt a GIANT HUMAN.
uuuuuuurgh.

chrissy613

01-09-2011, 03:21 PM

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Therefore, "weltanschauung" God created us in His image. So wouldn't you think that He knows and can experience every emotion and action we can? But seriously, I know even pointing this out to you, you will reject it even further. So why bother ?? :s

weltanschauung

01-09-2011, 03:32 PM

weltanschauung

01-09-2011, 03:38 PM

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/3.gif

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-09-2011, 03:42 PM

As Satan says, "Without evil there could be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes."

weltanschauung

01-09-2011, 03:45 PM

the point of view is the view of the point!

still the universe extends to a place that never-ends which is maybe just inside a little jaaaar http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/69.gif

chrissy613

01-09-2011, 03:49 PM

therefore he also grabbed a pen and wrote the bible, hm? therefore he talks, hm? therefore he thinks and eats delicious french fries fries when he is hungry, hm? THEREFORE HE IS HUMAN, HM? therefore you are correct! i bet he grabbed your hand and made you write that, hm? THEREFORE HE GRABBED MY HAND AND MADE ME WRITE THIS TOO, therefore he might be ****ing with our heads, hm? therefore my phone is ringing, therefore god is calling, brb..

*bows*
anyways, as i always say, "i have a roll of lifesavers in my pocket and pineapple is next"

In my opinion I would say you are pretty ignorant. I may not be wise and I may be young, but I think I can accurately say you don't have understanding of God's Word. I will leave it at that, knowing you would reject anything I would have to say anyways.

weltanschauung

01-09-2011, 03:53 PM

yes, im pretty ignorant. i know nothing of which i speak and i tend to take everything i hear or read literaly. i am so sorry. i probably have a hearing problem too, cause god's words are getting to my ear a little fuzzy... maybe he doesnt speak fluent english?? i dont know, so many possibilities.

DarkDude1423828

01-09-2011, 09:08 PM

You're all wrong, the great lord Cthulu created evil, good and all else. BOW DOWN TO HIM.

Scheherazade

01-09-2011, 09:18 PM

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Since this thread is not serving its original purpose, it will now be closed.

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