Shades of Grey? Maybe

[papayahed]

I've recently been talking to an ex-coworker recently and it reminded of an interesting situation.


Coworker, lets call her Tracy, was looking for a new job. Tracy's job was doing human Resources. After a few months and several interviews she found another job. During the hiring process the company wanted to verify her education so they asked her for her college transcripts. Generally the company just contacts the school directly but in this case they just asked if she could just send them a copy. Fate must have been on Tracy's side. The next day Tracy came into my office to ask for help, she lied on her resume and didn't have the required degree (associates degree). She asked if I could help her fake her transcripts. What should I have done?

[Niamh]

dont do it.

[papayahed]

I forgot to add, if it matters, that she had taken some classes but nowhere near enough for the degree and she was not in school at the time working on her degree.

[Joreads]

dont do it.

Same here don't do it.

[Niamh]

you could get yourself into a lot of trouble

[pussnboots]

I agree, don't do it. You don't want to run the risk of getting in trouble.

[Shalot]

Um, what did you do? In the interest of self-preservation, I would say don't do it. It could come back to haunt you. The world has changed so much and if someone wants to find something out about you, they can so she's not going to get very far with a fake transcript. Lying about your experience is a dumb move, although I've heard of people doing it and getting away with it, especially in seedy type, fly-by night companies, but if it were me, I wouldn't be comfortable with it. And I'm not comfortable in those shades of gray situations that you mention. Some companies don't seem to know when to stop pushing their luck and you have enron type situations. They flat out LIED and they ruined a lot of lives. World Com is another example. Someone in my family bought WorldCom stock, and I know that stocks are inherently risky, but there just isn't any justification for what the management at WorldCom did, and a lot of people who invested money lost money because the company was unscrupulous. It's one thing to know it's a risky game and lose money in the normal course of business and market fluctuations, but it's quite another to flat out cheat.

[andave_ya]

I wouldn't do it.

[papayahed]

Everybody said I could get in trouble, but from who (or is it whom)? The worst thing that could happen is the company would not hire Tracy because she forged her transcript.

[motherhubbard]

I don't know that you could get into trouble, unless it's a government agency. There is a falsifying government documents thing. But I still think you shouldn't do it. It's cheating and in some ways it's stealing. There are people who have put in the time, money, and effort to earn the degree and if she were to get the job based on lies she would also be stealing the job from someone else that legitimately qualified. Also, it might be hard to live with the knowledge that you compromised yourself, if you are inclined to feel that that was a comprise.

I'm not sure what is making it gray. Is it because you feel it wouldn't really be wrong to lie about qualifications or because this is a friend and you want to help her out? I think she really put you on the spot by asking this favor and she shouldn't have. It just doesn't seem very gray to me. But, I do sympathize with her and her desire to get a new job and your desire to help her out.

[Zippy]

It's simply wrong and devalues the efforts of people who have actually put in the work to earn a degree.

Also, in my opinion it doesn't matter if there will be no comeback for you if it's discovered, you'll know, and anyone with any moral integrity should refuse.

It's probably a little old-fashioned on my part to talk about things like 'honour' and 'reputation', but if it ever gets out you've done this then why would anyone ever trust your word again?

Your friend should hopefully understand this. If not then they're probably not much of a friend.

[Shalot]

What school did she go to? Or say she went to? Did she go to a private college or a state college? How would you fake a transcript? Everytime I've had to get a transcript (and I went to a state college) it has been such a process to get it. It's printed on this special paper, and I think it would be really hard to fake it. Plus there are chain of possession procedures in place.

couldn't an employer call a university to somehow verify the information? I realize there are privacy issues etc, but companies pay for background checks and it seems like it would come up. I guess it just depends on where she's trying to get a job. If it's some dumpy crappy place then they likely won't have the resources to do such a check.

If you did get caught it would be because your friend told on you I guess...

If she's applying for a government job, then forget about it. They don't mess around when it comes to that. they'll ask you to supply a transcript, but I don't doubt that they could get your transcript from the school directly if they wanted to. Not worth it.

[papayahed]

This is what happened:


I gave Tracy a copy of my college transcripts. She copied the format of my transcript, inserting her schools logo and the required classes from her degree program and sent it to the company.

Most companies do extensive background checks so i'm surprised it worked but she got the job and is now, oddly enough, almost done with her bachelors degree.


I'm not to worried about what I did and I'd probably do it again. I was just wondering how far off my moral compass actually is, if I was really moral should I have called the company and outed Tracy?

[pussnboots]

This is what happened:


I gave Tracy a copy of my college transcripts. She copied the format of my transcript, inserting her schools logo and the required classes from her degree program and sent it to the company.

Most companies do extensive background checks so i'm surprised it worked but she got the job and is now, oddly enough, almost done with her bachelors degree.


I'm not to worried about what I did and I'd probably do it again. I was just wondering how far off my moral compass actually is, if I was really moral should I have called the company and outed Tracy?

With your last post I now have a better understanding of what was done.
I don't see now how you can get in trouble. If anyone can get in trouble its your friend.

[Niamh]

its not right for the simple fact that there could be someone with more experience and quailified for that job that might not get it because she forged a transcript.

[papayahed]

its not right for the simple fact that there could be someone with more experience and quailified for that job that might not get it because she forged a transcript.

Agreed, I never said it wasn't wrong.

[manolia]

This is what happened:


I gave Tracy a copy of my college transcripts. She copied the format of my transcript, inserting her schools logo and the required classes from her degree program and sent it to the company.

Most companies do extensive background checks so i'm surprised it worked but she got the job and is now, oddly enough, almost done with her bachelors degree.


I'm not to worried about what I did and I'd probably do it again. I was just wondering how far off my moral compass actually is, if I was really moral should I have called the company and outed Tracy?

Not sure what i'd have done if i were you. Perhaps if the person was a friend i'd do the same. I don't believe you run any risk of being caught. You didn't sign anywhere did you :lol: and she wasn't filming the whole event, was she?

On a more serious note i don't think that it would be moral at all to call the company.

[Shalot]

This is what happened:


I gave Tracy a copy of my college transcripts. She copied the format of my transcript, inserting her schools logo and the required classes from her degree program and sent it to the company.

Most companies do extensive background checks so i'm surprised it worked but she got the job and is now, oddly enough, almost done with her bachelors degree.


I'm not to worried about what I did and I'd probably do it again. I was just wondering how far off my moral compass actually is, if I was really moral should I have called the company and outed Tracy?


I wouldn't say it would have been moral to call the company and out Tracy. That would be just plain crazy.

Did she have to supply her transcript before or after the interview/job offer? B/c she would have been in an awkward situation if she had misrepresented her education on her resume and was offered a job and then asked to supply a transcript.

[Annamariah]

I certainly wouldn't have helped her to forge any documents, and I really don't understand why people would lie on their resumees in the first place, it sounds like such a stupid thing to do.

And Zippy, I agree with you about "honour" and "reputation" :)

[papayahed]

I wouldn't say it would have been moral to call the company and out Tracy. That would be just plain crazy.

Did she have to supply her transcript before or after the interview/job offer? B/c she would have been in an awkward situation if she had misrepresented her education on her resume and was offered a job and then asked to supply a transcript.

The transcript was the last thing. The company had the recruiter handle the background check. The recruiter also had a bit of an interest in Tracy getting the job so I'm assuming the recruiter didn't look too hard at the transcript.

During the whole thing I kept telling Tracy it wasn't going to work and she was gonna get caught...


I certainly wouldn't have helped her to forge any documents, and I really don't understand why people would lie on their resumees in the first place, it sounds like such a stupid thing to do.

And Zippy, I agree with you about "honour" and "reputation" :)

In this case it worked - that's why people do it. Now take that cook on Dinner Impossible (Robert something?), he forged and got caught and he didn't have a reason to forge...

[Annamariah]

In this case it worked - that's why people do it.

Okay, I sort of understand that, BUT. I mean, there is always a great risk of getting caught and in that case the consequenses would be really serious. I think that alone should prevent people from lying about such things even if they don't feel it's otherwise wrong.

Really I just can't understand how people can live with themselves after doing something like that. I guess the rest of the world just finds lying much easier than I do...

[Virgil]

I've recently been talking to an ex-coworker recently and it reminded of an interesting situation.


Coworker, lets call her Tracy, was looking for a new job. Tracy's job was doing human Resources. After a few months and several interviews she found another job. During the hiring process the company wanted to verify her education so they asked her for her college transcripts. Generally the company just contacts the school directly but in this case they just asked if she could just send them a copy. Fate must have been on Tracy's side. The next day Tracy came into my office to ask for help, she lied on her resume and didn't have the required degree (associates degree). She asked if I could help her fake her transcripts. What should I have done?

Absolutely don't do it and if you feel she is a sniveling weasel on everything she does in life and you feel up to it, turn her in. Anyone that would ask for such help is a crook at heart. There is no shade of grey here.

Papaya you risk your own crediblity, reputation, and dignity. At a minimum she should be ignored and never paid attention to again.

[Jozanny]

Wow. I would never commit fraud like that. Highly unethical, and it is a crime. You are falsifying data; why you would even post about it or admit to it in public is beyond me, unless I've misunderstood.

[JoySmith]

Still getting over fifty shades of grey, but lately I've been hooked on Kenyon's Dark Hunter series and Emma Rose's His Every Desire series. Something about those billionaires... :)

[Volya]

People who only read the title of a thread and then just make a post based on that, REALLY irritate me. :rage:

[JuniperWoolf]

Hahahaha!

Aha...

Comical stuff.

[RicMisc]

Hahaha, welcome to the forum. Next time, read the actual post. This was from 2008 and Fifty Shades was only released last year.

[tonywalt]

I think the driving force here is that you are somehow close to Tracy or certainly have taken a shine to her.( I mean that is an awfully big favour). It's not so much the moral compass of your actions-I might do it for a close friend or relation but rather: Is she likely to lie about other stuff as well?

[Hawg Horse]

Only you can know whether ‘twas right, or wrong, even in hindsight (where the answer often changes), but one thing is true as the eleventh commandment--sometimes seemingly wrong is right and vice versa. Not sayin’ the ends justify the means, but that the means may have been right. Most think “right” a derivative of kindness, or perhaps one and the same thing.

[papayahed]

oh, wow. What an old chestnut. Still not as much fun as the alcoholic neighor thread but still interesting.

When I read the title I was like "What??? I've never even read fifty shades of grey."

[qimissung]

Just think, Papaya, how wealthy you could be, if you'd thought of the text as well as the title, first...