Humility

[Pendragon]

Is the humility taught by Christ in the Bible really followed in Christianity today?

Christ taught us to not be haughty, to take the low seat instead of throwing around our weight as if we were somebody important. He taught that we were to prefer one another, bearing the other persons burdens. He taught us to share and not be greedy. He taught that even Masters should sometimes take on the role of servants when He washed His disciples’ feet.

Why then do Christians often puff themselves up as if they were better than others? Why do Churches seem to get richer all of the time, building grand edifices as though worshiping God requires the absolute best? Can we not worship just as well in a less expensive building? I realize that the church must be able to support the size of the congregation, but all the frills really necessary?

Christ Himself was poor as were his disciples, and went from house to house preaching and fellowshipping. Are we so decadent as to always have to have the best and have churches were not everyone can feel right at home, because they don’t have the clothing or means to buy expensive cars or other creature comforts? Do we run people off with our haughty attitudes?

I am interested in seeing what others think. Should we try to get back to the basics and have we forgotten our roots? Do the big time preachers have their eyes on people or the dollar sign? What do you think.

[motherhubbard]

Pen, I wish you could come worship with me. A simple building and regular people. We know each other and love each other too much to put on airs. I think you'd like it.

[Pendragon]

Pen, I wish you could come worship with me. A simple building and regular people. We know each other and love each other too much to put on airs. I think you'd like it.
You never know. I know the area fairly well. I might show up one day!:)

[billyjack]

yeah, you'd think that being a christian would mean nothing more than living as and being faithful as christ

[teleios]

Ah Pendragon, this is something that has bothered me quite a bit in the region that I live...

My former church had a beautiful building that they were given for $1. It was truly a gift from God - moreover, it was huge, and easily fit everyone who came to church.

However, the pastor had heard from other pastors that when you increase your church size, your congregation size seems to increase rapidly as well, and he got caught up in the fever.

There was a ministry at that church that was devoted to raising money for the charity Blood:Water Missions (a charity dedicated to getting clean water and blood to people in Africa). The people in the ministry were struggling to raise money, going so far as to ask the whole congregation to save bring their recyclables to church and car washes... After about 6 months of work, they were able to send about 2,000 dollars (they got no help from the church pastors, who were in control of the offerings).

The pastor announced, in about the middle of those 6 months, that he had decided to purchase a new building that cost... 10 million dollars. It would double the number of seats in the church, and add some new nice amenities.

The pastor has an incredibly nice car and a big house on a hill overlooking the city. If he's looking for nice earthly possessions, he should of gone into Law or Medical care.

I had to leave that church. I am more than happy to meet at a park, or on a rainy day in a house, and just worship in an informal setting with my fellow believers. If a building can be had, wonderful. A 10 million dollar building is not needed, especially when it would put the church into debt.

We need to return to the fundamentals of Christianity. Mammon has indeed become our idol.

God bless,
Teleios

[absurda]

I think that if all the money donated to churches was used to feed the hungry and educate the poor, the world would have A LOT less poverty and hunger. Even if you use some of the money to pay the bills for modest churches. At least in my country, many religious leaders are rich (most if not all of them christian), and some of them are wanted by the police. I'm not saying that it happens in all churches, but it is a reality. It is just too easy to trick uneducated people into giving the little money they have, in order to garantee some happiness in the afterlife. But I do think that churches don't really need air conditioning, modern sound systems and other fancy stuff.

[motherhubbard]

I agree, absurda. I think there are people who associate having more as some kind of divine symbol of righteous and having less with some kind of Godly retribution for living a sinful life. How ironic, really. But, it’s nothing new. Job’s friends wanted to know what sin he was being punished for when he suffered so much loss.

[TheInsomniac]

Why then do Christians often puff themselves up as if they were better than others?

I find this to be of some truth also. One day when I simply walking to the bus stop, a group of christians walk past me and had the nerve to snicker amongst themselves and say 'there goes another sinner'... =_=
So they suppose they are perfect? God did not create us to be perfect, im agnostic and so im not concerned in the existence of god, neither do i rule out the existence of god.

But why do people of christian faith seem to push their beliefs onto others as the abnoxious 'truth'. I may be generalising here, and i understand that not all people do it, but that is one thing that pisses me off...

A few people that portray the belief system they are in as greedy and abnoxious, and this i can imagine would harm newcomers to christianity and the such.

Just a thought...

[NikolaiI]

I find this to be of some truth also. One day when I simply walking to the bus stop, a group of christians walk past me and had the nerve to snicker amongst themselves and say 'there goes another sinner'... =_=
So they suppose they are perfect? God did not create us to be perfect, im agnostic and so im not concerned in the existence of god, neither do i rule out the existence of god.

But why do people of christian faith seem to push their beliefs onto others as the abnoxious 'truth'. I may be generalising here, and i understand that not all people do it, but that is one thing that pisses me off...

A few people that portray the belief system they are in as greedy and abnoxious, and this i can imagine would harm newcomers to christianity and the such.

Just a thought...

Yes, they are just charlatans if they say things like that.

One thing Jesus said was that we would go after material things which do not make us happy. Those greedy Christians will not be happy in the end, and they are not focusing on what Christ wanted them to in the first place. Christianity is very valid as a path to God-realization, which is the highest form of self-realization. The path is a long one though... but what I mean is that it is valid for spiritual growth... but not if you are completely close-minded when you enter association with Christians, and if you only wish to insult people, etc... then you are missing it completely.

[Pendragon]

Good points and precisely what I am talking about. I am not rich, but part of my money helps the missionaries in countries where they reach people who live in poverty. I am not rich but I pay my tithes to a church. I attend home services every Sunday. I have nothing against churches that follow Christ and stay away from material gain. But they are few and far between...

[RG57]

Sadly, a lot of Christians do not practice what they preach. The church I go to I have found that there is a cros of those who truly do try to be has the Bible teaches, and there are those who are saying they are Christians but tend not to show it. I am not perfect by any means but i do try to go by Biblical teaching.
Could a part of the problem of the modern Christian is that they are bought up in a Christian family (traditional - Catholic or Anglican) and attend church because it is expected?

[El Viejo]

Is the humility taught by Christ in the Bible really followed in Christianity today?

This problem of non-Christian Christianity may be as old as the Church itself. I remember hearing the Prosperity Gospel. "We're God's kids, and he wants us to have nice cars, nice clothes, and so on. Don't you want that for your kids? What sort of witness is it to be broke?"

I wanted to believe it, did believe it for a while, but couldn't see how it fit with the red-letter portions.

A few generations earlier it was "Muscular Christianity," emphasizing sports and being imposing enough to further righteous causes. After all, Jesus can't really want us to /always/ turn the other cheek, can He?

Christians want the same things everyone else does and, as with everyone else, some of those wants are in conflict. We/they look for ways to reconcile the conflicts. It's so nice when we can show that Jesus wants what we want too.

[El Viejo]

I think that if all the money donated to churches was used to feed the hungry and educate the poor, the world would have A LOT less poverty and hunger.

Whatever one has to say about churches, we have to acknowledge the tremendous good many have done to feed the hungry, educate the poor, care for the sick, minister to prisoners, free the enslaved. Those churches harness and direct the will and energy of their members. Hard to say how much of this happens today. Most of the attention is drawn by the mega-churches.

We were advised not to announce our good works with horns, and one of the lessons we should have learned from that admonition is to ignore the horns and listen for the quiet. Many churches, Christians, seem to think that letting one's light shine involves PR, ads, and building projects. But what are the quiet ones doing?

[NikolaiI]

I was interested by your response El, and so I did a quick search and found a page about that... here are some verses.

Matthew 6:19-20
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
(KJV)

“love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might” (Deuteronomy 6:5),

Luke 12

22Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27"Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!

1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world - the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does - comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives for ever. (New International Version)

All of these sort of speak against the saying "we are God's sons, so we should have great cars."

[billyjack]

Matthew 6:19-20
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
(KJV)


1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world - the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does - comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives for ever. (New International Version)


I've quoted it before, but it applies again. "speak of heaven, ye disgrace earth" thoreau. I cringe reading this world renouncing, heaven seeking stuff. but to each his own



Luke 12
25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

this i agree with:thumbs_up

[NikolaiI]

Earth comes from God, though.

[El Viejo]

All of these sort of speak against the saying "we are God's sons, so we should have great cars."

Some Gospels, like the Prosperity Gospel, are seemingly readily refuted. It would be interesting to hear one of its proponents answer those verses.

I imagine it would be along the lines of how we brush aside 'turn the other cheek' and 'seventy times seven' and 'give him thy cloak as well' and 'sell what you have, give to the poor and come follow me.'

The argument, when we're required to do the difficult or the impossible or what we simply don't want to do is that they're figurative statements, not literal.

[byquist]

Although you can find loudmouths on the radio or t.v. pushing religion, often from a monetary incentive, most of the religious folks I encounter are very mild, loving, and meek. They've leaved some hard lessons from experience. If a person grasps that there is an infinitude or power vastly bigger than one's own pea-size intellect or selfish will, they become very humble very fast. And most of us are invited to learn this lesson repeatedly -- it's called disappointment. " I wanted X, but didn't get it." Or, "I wanted X, but was given Y instead."

[billyjack]

Earth comes from God, though.


I'm assuming that you speak of god as a creator, something that isnt reality itself but pruduced our reality then stands outside of it judging, watching. yes?

[El Viejo]

Although you can find loudmouths on the radio or t.v. pushing religion, often from a monetary incentive, most of the religious folks I encounter are very mild, loving, and meek. They've leaved some hard lessons from experience. If a person grasps that there is an infinitude or power vastly bigger than one's own pea-size intellect or selfish will, they become very humble very fast. And most of us are invited to learn this lesson repeatedly -- it's called disappointment. " I wanted X, but didn't get it." Or, "I wanted X, but was given Y instead."

True of many Christians, but we tend to flock with like-minded souls. There are many mega-church Christians who wholeheartedly believe that socioeconomic standing correlates directly with God's favor. They like the parable of the talents, for instance, in which the shrewd financier reaps the greatest favor.

[crystalmoonshin]

This is exactly what's been going on in my head for months now. Last semester, I had a really good professor in Spanish history class and she's a missionary who lives in a posh village near my university. When we were shown pictures of different missionaries scattered all over the world, I was so amazed that they all looked well-off, so far from what I would have expected them to look like.

It got me thinking, why do they live comfortably? I mean, of course, anyone can live comfortably, but isn't it better to live a life full of simplicity if one's a missionary? It's to practice humility and utter denial of worldly things.

Oh, and that prof of mine does not respect the opinions we share in class. She deems herself the sole authority, which is very contradictory to her professions.

[weltanschauung]

Humility



"humility is only doubt,
and does the sun & moon blot out. "



William Blake (1757 - 1827)

[blazeofglory]

Is the humility taught by Christ in the Bible really followed in Christianity today?

Christ taught us to not be haughty, to take the low seat instead of throwing around our weight as if we were somebody important. He taught that we were to prefer one another, bearing the other persons burdens. He taught us to share and not be greedy. He taught that even Masters should sometimes take on the role of servants when He washed His disciples’ feet.

Why then do Christians often puff themselves up as if they were better than others? Why do Churches seem to get richer all of the time, building grand edifices as though worshiping God requires the absolute best? Can we not worship just as well in a less expensive building? I realize that the church must be able to support the size of the congregation, but all the frills really necessary?

Christ Himself was poor as were his disciples, and went from house to house preaching and fellowshipping. Are we so decadent as to always have to have the best and have churches were not everyone can feel right at home, because they don’t have the clothing or means to buy expensive cars or other creature comforts? Do we run people off with our haughty attitudes?

I am interested in seeing what others think. Should we try to get back to the basics and have we forgotten our roots? Do the big time preachers have their eyes on people or the dollar sign? What do you think.

Jesus and Buddha both embodied humility.

[Mr. Vandemar]

Christianity has been so warped and spread so thin that you can not make such generalizations. I will say that humility is involved in every Christian's life because I think it is the defining point of "Christian".

Christianity was fine until it entered Europe...

[blazeofglory]

Earth comes from God, though.

From where does God come.

We have no answer. And we take God is the last point, the genesis of everything
We do not know except for what we read in scriptures whether there is something beyond God or not. But this is logically more confusing not to think something beyond God.

[Pendragon]

Oh, and that prof of mine does not respect the opinions we share in class. She deems herself the sole authority, which is very contradictory to her professions.
People who deem themselves the sole authority are fooling no one except their own deluded self. No one has the final say so on anything. Things grow and change. Often when it gets down to it, we don't know as much as we like to think we do. Everyone has opinions, which may or may not be correct.

[blazeofglory]

People who deem themselves the sole authority are fooling no one except their own deluded self. No one has the final say so on anything. Things grow and change. Often when it gets down to it, we don't know as much as we like to think we do. Everyone has opinions, which may or may not be correct.

You are right. We have no other things than opinions.

[The Atheist]

Why then do Christians often puff themselves up as if they were better than others? Why do Churches seem to get richer all of the time, building grand edifices as though worshiping God requires the absolute best? Can we not worship just as well in a less expensive building? I realize that the church must be able to support the size of the congregation, but all the frills really necessary?

Bravo!

It's a pity more moderate christians don't ask the same questions. Unfortunately, the tax-exempt status of chruches often appeals to the wrong kind of person, who then uses it as a way of becoming very rich - Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar and other TV evangelists.

I am disgusted every time I drive through Auckland's poorest areas and see huge megachurches in amongst houses with leaky roofs and peeling paint, watching the pastors drive up to the church in their flash new cars while the congregation walks, or chuffs in in 20-year old Toyota vans.

The greediest ones seem to prey on the weakest members of society.

As was it ever thus.


Christ Himself was poor as were his disciples, and went from house to house preaching and fellowshipping. Are we so decadent as to always have to have the best and have churches were not everyone can feel right at home, because they don’t have the clothing or means to buy expensive cars or other creature comforts? Do we run people off with our haughty attitudes?

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

My childhood recollection of every stripe of reverend and priest was always the near-poverty conditions they lived in - poor pay, old, poorly-maintained homes, all the while working 80-100 hours a week in their parishes.

Yet those Anglican and Catholic churches, whose priests are still relatively poor, are falling in membership while the growth is in evangelical churches, which are the usual home of the ones you're talking about.

Of the twenty churches nearest to me, 18 of them conform to what I call "fundie" churches - loud, evangelical, speaking in tongues, bible literalists - and every single one of them has a pastor or pastor couple whom I consider to be living in luxury. The churches are in middle-class areas, so none of their parishioners are going hungry as a result, but I'd say the pastorial standard of living is higher than probably 90% of members.

Maybe people are impressed by ostentatious wealth?


I am interested in seeing what others think. Should we try to get back to the basics and have we forgotten our roots? Do the big time preachers have their eyes on people or the dollar sign? What do you think.

PR or die is more likely, I think.

In a world of instant gratification and worshipping of "success", I think flashy pastors with obvious cosmetic surgery driving BMW 4WDs is simply good marketing strategy. People are surrounded by unreal ideals, so where's the attraction in a monastic order wearing plain robes?

[Pendragon]

Well, this "flashy" stuff bothers me, but attitude bothers me more. Why should I think that because I believe in Christ and salvation, consider myself saved and a Christian, even more, a minister, that I am any better than my neighbor who might be an atheist? Down to brass tacks, we are both human. Recall the Bible states that Elias was a man of like passions, and Paul declared that himself and the other Apostles were as well.

I repent of the wrongs I do on a daily basis, but it doesn't give me a halo or anything like that. I am still only human, and subject to any and all human failures. I cannot in good faith look down my pious nose at anyone. That attitute is what drives people away from religion and God, the way religious people act.

[skasian]

Is the humility taught by Christ in the Bible really followed in Christianity today?

Christ taught us to not be haughty, to take the low seat instead of throwing around our weight as if we were somebody important. He taught that we were to prefer one another, bearing the other persons burdens. He taught us to share and not be greedy. He taught that even Masters should sometimes take on the role of servants when He washed His disciples’ feet.

Why then do Christians often puff themselves up as if they were better than others? Why do Churches seem to get richer all of the time, building grand edifices as though worshiping God requires the absolute best? Can we not worship just as well in a less expensive building? I realize that the church must be able to support the size of the congregation, but all the frills really necessary?

Christ Himself was poor as were his disciples, and went from house to house preaching and fellowshipping. Are we so decadent as to always have to have the best and have churches were not everyone can feel right at home, because they don’t have the clothing or means to buy expensive cars or other creature comforts? Do we run people off with our haughty attitudes?

I am interested in seeing what others think. Should we try to get back to the basics and have we forgotten our roots? Do the big time preachers have their eyes on people or the dollar sign? What do you think.

Of course humility is taught in Christianity, then what else do you think we are taught? The idea of humility of being taught in Christianity is not the question we should ask ourselves. Its the idea if Christians are living by humility that is worth being questioned. Christians are human, capable of being arrogant and refusing to turn to Christ's Words and following them. Christians can be every inch unhumble, evil however this can be prevented by the help of Jesus.

Let me share my views on the riches the Church itself gains. I am against the luxury, extragavance that church can buy for itself. To be honest, when I looked at traditional Catholic system, it looked too flamboyant, layered with gold and embedded by precious stones. I wondered if some of these were torn down, situations of poverty wouldnt be aggravated as much. Today, I look at Catholic system, I see less flamboyancy, and have concluded that humility was increased. Churches I see around here are not flourished, and rather struggling to keep rent. They pour the givings of people to charity and missions. What I am saying is that most churches do not spend their money on themselves,but for people in need. Pastors and leaders I have always come across are poor themselves, and they are defined as assiduous people that work many times more than they earn. The very reason why some people avoid to become leaders of church as a profession is because it is inevitable for them to end up poor. People who work for God and love God do not care for money because physical materialism is nothing in comparison to God and the rewards He may give. When someone becomes one of God's people, they see outside the physical world, and they start to careless about themselves, their own exterior conditions and they commence to devote themselves to God and people in need. I want you to know that there are many Christians that do not work for money, not for fame, not for themselves but just for God and His people.

[blazeofglory]

I do not think humility springs from people whose hands have been

[AuntShecky]

I'm sorry that I missed the post that began this thread back in October. Pendragon raises extremely interesting point.

By the way, when I was in grade school (several Presidential administrations ago), we were indoctrinated with the idea that
the sin of pride was to be avoided at all costs, especially by young ladies.

What the h- happened to the educational system in the decades since? I can remember when humility was a virtue, but somewhere along the line teachers have associated with "low self esteem."

[jon1jt]

What the h- happened to the educational system in the decades since? I can remember when humility was a virtue, but somewhere along the line teachers have associated with "low self esteem."

What happened is college education programs were implemented that took the freedom out of teaching and put it into the hands of state curriculums, which includes TVs and computers in the classroom, not to mention the super big computer labs. Teachers are left trying to please their students at the cost of educating them.

Spending hours and hours on myspace, watching TV, or shopping at the mall for the next fashionable outfit for the next big party, students have come to believe that anything outside this world is a complete waste of time. The distinction between parents and children has eroded too. Parents dress in the same clothes and talk the same lingo as their kids because they desire above all to be accepted by them. The age of parenting is gone gone.

And this is only the beginning.

[weltanschauung]

I'm sorry that I missed the post that began this thread back in October. Pendragon raises extremely interesting point.

By the way, when I was in grade school (several Presidential administrations ago), we were indoctrinated with the idea that
the sin of pride was to be avoided at all costs, especially by young ladies.

What the h- happened to the educational system in the decades since? I can remember when humility was a virtue, but somewhere along the line teachers have associated with "low self esteem."


females are always taught to be submissive and passive (and silent), while males are always taught to be free and rubristic (and patronizing). how come they never taught anyone in school about the "sin" of eternal subliminal misogeny.

[BienvenuJDC]

Christianity has been so warped and spread so thin that you can not make such generalizations. I will say that humility is involved in every Christian's life because I think it is the defining point of "Christian".

Christianity was fine until it entered Europe...

Christ established His church and His doctrine. The church was already departing from its intended form within the first century. Read the book of 3 John 9-10, "9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. 10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church."

Early Christians were warned from the beginning...
1 Timothy 4:1ff, "1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

If you wish to practice Christianity in its intended form, we have to follow the Biblical instruction, not the traditions of our own churches.

[blazeofglory]

Humility is something, does not breed pity but daringness and courage