Anyone know Cicero?

[Shea]

I read his speech against Catiline for my Roman Lit class. We won't be discussing it until Thursday, but I had to get some other opinions on it. My text book praises him as one of the great orators, but I just felt like he kept beating a dead horse. Yes, I could understand the necessity for killing Catiline, but really, couldn't he have used half as many words?

Maybe I haven't read enough for comparison, but I can't figure out why he was so great. Is it because his speech was so moving as to kill a man?

[Taliesin]

Cicero? Hmmm... It seems like We have heard the name somewhere. Hmmm...*thinking*
Nope. It was Cicore, a person one of our alter-egos know. We know no Ciceros.

[Shea]

That's what I'm afraid of. No one knows what I'm talking about. :(

[Scheherazade]

I am not familiar with Cicero apart from hearing here and there that he was a great orator of his time. However, a google search returns some detailed websites, which might prove helpful. Good luck! Hope all goes well! :)

http://gracie.smsu.edu/cicero.htm
http://www.utexas.edu/depts/classics/documents/Cic.html#Bibliography
http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/cicero.htm
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/gallery/rhetoric/figures/cicero.html

[Shea]

Thanks! This actually explains quite a bit, but I'll keep reading.

If one opens the pages of the American Congressional Report of a century ago, one will find Ciceronian periods completely dominating the verbal art. The tripartite sentence, the verb at the end jamming in the punch meaning home suddenly with delayed force, the aposiopeseis., the overstatements in sarcastic vein, the tricks and devices of rhetorical discipline are all too evident. Indeed Cicero was praised since the Renaissance as the supreme orator, his golden voice of persuasion was assumed to be the business of any congressional orator, since the schools had reinforced this view from the days when the first Latin paradigms were learned. This was the great period of English and American Rhetoric.

In the 20th c. this ground to an end. As we reminisce, the accents of Ciceronian eloquence now sound quaint, as antique as the gingerbread decoration on overdeveloped Victorian mansions. Nowadays we have moved into a new type of rhetoric, which relies on short, pungent phraseology, interspersed with long pauses for the radio or TV audience to catch up, and written mostly in the language of the people, with only so much "highfalutin' speechifying" as a politician thinks will confirm him as thoroughly American. The days of Ciceronian diction are gone, probably forever, and when we read his grand speeches, we have to disassociate ourselves from the world around us. This makes the speeches a bit foreign, tedious and finally boring, unless one can develop a taste for the niceties of an antique style which has passed into cultural oblivion.
(Prof. William Harris)

[Shea]

Lol! I just had a thought. I remember watching a Shirley Temple movie called "Dimples". It took place during the civil war and the slave that they had, had such a sloppy way of talking, that you could barely understand him. But his name was Cicero, after this eloquent speaker! :D

I hate discovering the meanings behind punchlines years later. It sort of ruins it.

[Taliesin]

That's what I'm afraid of. No one knows what I'm talking about. :(
Sorry. you have misunderstood us.

*jots down a note: Must not use any sarcasm*

For we personally believed that actually everyone has heard of Cicero and found the question :" Has anyone heard of Cicero?" rather.....rethorical.

[mono]

I have never read the Speech against Catiline, but someone has recommended it to me. I read Cicero's The Nature of the Gods and loved it; one can easily see who influenced many other thinkers, like Immanuel Kant, David Hume, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Michel de Montaigne. As one can guess, the long essay outlines religious philosophy, refuting the Epicurean and Stoic spiritual ideas, and proceeds to a less materialistic, ontological, design, and cosmological argument.

[simon]

Would this be the speech agianst Lucius Sergius Catalina? I've read many of Cicero's speeches, my favorite is the one arguing for Caelius Rufus, it really brings out his burgeoning political persona.

What specific questions do you have about it?

[Shea]

Sorry. you have misunderstood us.

*jots down a note: Must not use any sarcasm*

For we personally believed that actually everyone has heard of Cicero and found the question :" Has anyone heard of Cicero?" rather.....rethorical.


lol, :lol: sorry I missed the sarcasm. This is my first experience with Cicero and I guess I was so deep in thought to figure him out, that I misunderstood you. no worries though! :p

I'm working on a take home test for another class right now simon, but let me keep delving into it. I know I've got more specific questions but right now my brain is in standby mode for Literary Criticism.

[simon]

Okay, good luck with the take home test, I'll be lurking around if you need help with Cicero.

[Shea]

Okay, I wasn't able to get to a computer before class today, but a lot of the questions I had were answered in class.

The big one was, what did this Cataline guy do that was so bad? Everytime Cicero would ask him to change his ways, he would suddenly condemn him again. My textbook didn't supply this answer, but our instructor gave us a handout that I wish he would have given during the last class. It was an outline of Cataline's life. He had a long history of being jealous, stubborn, and very untrustworthy. So when Cicero asks him to change, I guess he realizes that Cataline can't be trusted to do so anyway.

But I still can't understand quite why he had to keep going on, and on. I know that he was building up to Cataline's sentence but I struggled to understand the method.

I re-read it tonight, maybe I'll get some more out of it now that I know who Cataline is.

[simon]

Did he tell you at all about Cicero? Becuase his backgroud is the intersting one, he's full of contradictions. Like he has members of a conspiracy murdered iin protest of the uprising, when he himself was a proclaimed member. The basic thing I think to remember about Cicero was that he was the worlds first politician. He was out for reputation and image and was very good at manipulating his audience of Athenian male citizens. He may have gone on and on and on becuase he was trying to drive points into them and his defences of some people are absolutely ridiculous. Also the orators were not judged on their arguments, or rather the condemned man was killed on the quality of the speakers oratory abilitites not the logicality of the argument. This is what Cicero is good at, and that's why he can wander off topic, it's a strategy of sorts, where he can show off his linguistic abilities to the advantage of the man on trial. The only reason these "trials" are happening is beause Rome changed from a city-state to an empire so there was a rise of corruption. Cicero is a versatile speaker, becuase he swtiches sides alot, he argued in favor of Pompei and then Pompei's enemy Archias.

But basically know that they were being defended by the oratory skills not the arguments in them, but the eloquence with which they were spoken.
Hope that helps.

[simon]

Should anyone else want to read some Cicero here is a website with many primary sources that may be of interest to those of the classics:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_Greco-Roman.html

[subterranean]

While the sick man has life there is hope.
—Cicero, Epistolarum ad Atticum. ix. 10, 4.

[Miss Darcy]

I haven't actually *read* any Cicero (yet...I'm too busy with Virgil at the moment!), but yes, of course, I have heard of him. :)

It was he (from memory) that said, "the spirit is the true self."

My first message! How special.... ;)

[subterranean]

Hi ya Darcy welcome :wave:


Wow this is funny, since my handle in Yahoo is also darcy..from the former bassist of the Smashing Pumpkins ;)

[Miss Darcy]

You don't say... :lol:

My name's from Mr Darcy of Pride and Prejudice (NOT Mr Darcy from Bridget Jones. I don't like Bridget Jones.)...sort of a second sister of his...:D

[Scheherazade]

You want to be his sister???

[Miss Darcy]

Well he's already got a wife, hasn't he. lol...

[subterranean]

We got new member named Kaida Darcy...still in the same family I suppose

[Miss Darcy]

Probably. ;)

[Ia Nabu]

"A healthy man does not dance." - Cicero ;)

[Scheherazade]

Well he's already got a wife, hasn't he. lol...

Next best thing, eh? :p

[simon]

A room without a book is like a body without a soul.
--Marcus Tullius Cicero

[Miss Darcy]

Next best thing, eh? :p

Sure would be. :nod:


"A healthy man does not dance." - Cicero

Ha! I'm sure Darcy would like that one! :lol:

Oh and I like, "A room without a book is like a body without a soul..."

None of our rooms would be soulless. :D

[Shea]

A room without a book is like a body without a soul.
--Marcus Tullius Cicero

Just for that, I have greater respect for Cicero.

Simon, my instructor went a little bit into all that you said, but you gave me a lot more info, thanks. The trouble is that this is sort of a survey course and this is the only little bit of Cicero that we get. I think I'm trying to over-acheive here, but I would like to study him some more during a break sometime.

Miss Darcy, so your a violinist? I'm a harpist, wanna do a duet? ;) Welcome to the forums! :D

[mono]

For anyone interested in quotes by Cicero, I collected many here:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3630
Enjoy.

[Miss Darcy]

....Miss Darcy, so your a violinist? I'm a harpist, wanna do a duet? ;) Welcome to the forums! :D

Thanks, Shea. I'm really enjoying them so far. Yeah, I play the violin, I'm a Suzuki student...well if we did, we'd probably have to do it via microphone, that's unless you live in Oz too. ;)

[Koa]

the only thing I remember about Cicero was that it wasn't too hard to translate. Or maybe it was, and that's why I remember it...Oops. How long will you Catilina abuse of our patience? :D Bah, I generally had no passion for latin, when we did literature I just learnt the translation more or less by heart...easier than remembering the grammar :D

Very relevant to the conversation, uh?

[simon]

I want to start taking latin, currently I'm only taking ancient greek. Or I was rather, I had tos top since I was doin too much, but I plan on continuing over the summer if I can find a place to learn it at.

[SleepyWitch]

hum.. maybe the reason he's so famous i because his speeches are especially well-composed? dunno? the other day i had to read some stuff about oratory for a Shakespeare essays and there were some quotes from Cicero's De Oratore and i understood every single bit of it although i haven't had Latin for a couple of years. there were also some quotes from other famous orators and they gave me a lot of trouble.
i remember i loved In Catillinam when we did it at school :) i'd love to read it again :) yeah.. i know i'm sad :)

[Koa]

Well he is famous for his speeches indeed...he's like the 'model' of the good orator (is this English?), that can persuade the crowd with his speeches...

And wasnt what catilina did wrong something like he was trying to conspire against someone? I've never really got into Roman history, it's a bit confusing to me...But I hate to have forgotten the little I used to know