Personal Responsibility

[Dark Muse]

I am huge believer in and proponent of personal responsibility. I am really quite ruthless when it comes to my belief and advocacy of personal responsibility. It is one of the reasons why I am not often very compassionate or sympathetic to listen to others complain about their problems. Because I believe that more often then not the individual is personally responsible for the situation they find themselves in. Either because of past actions they took, or because of actions they refuse to take, because it is easier to just complain and wallow in self pity and have others pat you on the back and tell you it is not your fault.

I think one of the biggest problems in the world today is the fact that nobody holds any one accountable for anything anymore. Whatever happens, people have to try and blame some outside force for it, or others excuse them, by saying well it is not really thier fault, it is because of their environment, or society, or this that and the other thing,

I grant that there are some things that happen which are out of a persons control and power, but I always believe, that in any given situation there is always a choice, everything comes down to the matter of choice. The choices may not always be pretty, they may not be easy, but that is how life is. I do not truly believe that anyone has no control over there situation, or that anyone can truly be forced into doing anything. Whatever action they take, it is an action they choose to take, though there may be a variety of reasons that lead them to take said action. It still all comes down to individual choice.

I do not believe in protecting people from themselves. If someone does something stupid, they deserve, and should, suffer the consequences of that action, no matter how sever the consequences are, that is how they will learn not to do it again. People should not be babied or parented by the government. Laws should not be made that solely focus around protecting a person from themselves. (i.e. the seatbelt law). If a person sticks their hand in fire, and gets burned, they should not have the right to sue some company because the company did not warn them that fire was hot.

I am sick and tired of people being compensated, and viewed upon as victims of some "evil" because they lack any resemblance of common sense. I am also tired of people thinking they are owed something from someone else, if they do something stupid. No one looks at themselves any more and says "hey maybe this happened to me, because I acted like an idiot."

I am also tired of listening to people bellyache about circumstances in their life, which they do have the power to change, but they simply do not wish to take the steps to do so, because it would be too hard, and they rather just boo woo, and play the role of the victim, because it is easier and because others have gotten in the habit of accepting this, and patting you on the back and telling you it is not your fault instead of saying "hey why don't you get off your arse and actually do something about it."

You have these options. It might be a struggle, you might have to make certain sacrifices, and it won't be an easy road, but it will get you out of the current situation which you are unhappy with.

People are a victim only of themselves and the fact that they are not willing to look themselves in the eye, and say, just why am I in this situation, in what ways am I reasonable for these circumstances, and what options do I have to take to change it.

[Jozanny]

Are you reacting to something specific Dark? Having been born a quadriplegic, I do not think "pulling yourself up by your boot straps" is all that simple, honestly. I was spared intelligence, which may or may not be an irony in itself, but my failure in life is partly due to the oppression, even when it is unwitting, of an ableist society. I am not working because the Department of Transportation took the ADA, made it a weapon, and allowed my regional transit authority, (SEPTA) to drastically curtail Paratransit services. I can't use it anymore in good weather because I have a power chair, and if the power chair needs repair, SEPTA demands proof which I cannot provide because my medical vendor stopped doing repairs.

Want to come live on my planet for a week or two?

[Dark Muse]

Just my thoughts in general about the lack of people being held a accountable for their own actions, and the tendency in people to prefer self-pity over taking action, simply because they don't want to take the effort or make the sacrifices required to altar there situations.

As well I think part of the degradation of the world today is from the tendency for people to think they deserve to be rewarded when they do something stupid and don't want to own to the consequences of those actions, primarily being the majority of frivolous lawsuits stemming from someone trying to sue because of their own lack of common sense.



Are you reacting to something specific Dark? Having been born a quadriplegic, I do not think "pulling yourself up by your boot straps" is all that simple, honestly.

I never said it was simple, but I think part of the problem is the fact that people do not even want to try and do it precisely because it is not simple. It is far easier for a person to accept a state of vicitimhood, and doing so has become acceptable. Then making hard choices in an attempt to try and better themselves.

[wessexgirl]

People are a victim only of themselves and the fact that they are not willing to look themselves in the eye, and say, just why am I in this situation, in what ways am I reasonable for these circumstances, and what options do I have to take to change it.

That sounds very harsh to me.
I don't know where to start. Jozanny's example above perhaps, or the victims of war, famine, plague, disease etc. Is it their fault? Can they do anything to change their circumstances? Are they responsible for their situation?

I hope you never find yourself in need of something as necessary as food, or shelter. Or find yourself in the midst of a war-torn country, where survival is everything. Would you be willing to look yourself in the eye then and say, why am I in this situation, in what way am I responsible for these circumstances, and what options do I have to change it? You would not have the inclination to participate in such abstract theorising when you were fighting to survive.

You may see examples of cases where you think someone may need a prod to try and do something to help themselves. But such sweeping generalisations do not help. Apart from the practical day-to-day issues of surviving for many, their "apathy" as we could call it, stems from being locked into a spiral of depression, anxiety etc. which needs help, not a full-on attack.

[Ohmyscience]

I do believe people are held accountable. When someone makes a poor choice whether conscious or not society holds them accountable even when it is or isn't their fault. In fact I find society too harsh against those who truly need our sympathy. There is so much feel good I can do anything attitude in our culture that sometimes I think we ignore some realities and limitations of circumstance. I'm not condoning those who are ignorant and are lazy but can you expect everyone to rise above their misfortune? Could those facing genocide have a choice to fight back? Are they aware they have a choice? If the choice is between suicide or fighting, is it much of a choice?

[Dark Muse]

That sounds very harsh to me.
I don't know where to start. Jozanny's example above perhaps, or the victims of war, famine, plague, disease etc. Is it their fault? Can they do anything to change their circumstances? Are they responsible for their situation?

No, I am not saying that at all. I am talking more about people who are more inclined to simply complain about the situation they are in, then taking steps to try and change the situation, when in fact said person does have options, but just finds those options too difficult and prefers instead to constantly complain about the same problem over and over.

I am not speaking of people who are in dire cirucumstances in which they have not been given any control. But those who do not wish to hold themselves accountable when in fact they are reponseable.

Those who wish to blame outside forces, when infact it was by thier own actions that they have found themselves in a particular situation.

[wessexgirl]

[QUOTE=Dark Muse;629425]

I grant that there are some things that happen which are out of a persons control and power, but I always believe, that in any given situation there is always a choice, everything comes down to the matter of choice. The choices may not always be pretty, they may not be easy, but that is how life is. I do not truly believe that anyone has no control over there situation, or that anyone can truly be forced into doing anything. Whatever action they take, it is an action they choose to take, though there may be a variety of reasons that lead them to take said action. It still all comes down to individual choice.

As I said, sweeping generalisations do not help. You concede that some things are out of a persons control, but then say there is always a choice. So the suituation they find themselves in is purely down to their bad choices. And so back to the circular argument that it is their own fault...

[Dark Muse]

Perhaps I worded it badly, but I did not mean to imply that it is their fault but they do have a choice in how they respond to the circumstances. They can either simply lay down and accept it, and complain about it, or they can make choices to try and better the situation. Just because they are not to blame for the circumstance, they are in control of how they react to the circumstance.

And it is true, that everything does come down to making one choice or another, and again, I expressed, the choices are not always preferable, not always good, but they are still there.

[Virgil]

Except for extreme circumstances, like Jozy's or the ones Wessexgirl points out, I agree with you Muse. You know there are people that don't go to school, take drugs, get themselves into trouble, and find themselves with a poor job or lose their jobs. And then they want to take through tax redistribution of income the money of people who did the the right things and work and actually make society function and prosper. I have a lot of compassion for the misfortunate; my father lost his sight completely in mid life. He needed help. But a lot of people have no problems in life but their uncontrollable impulses.

[Dark Muse]

Thank you Virgil, I had a feeling you would get where I was trying to come from with this.

I was not trying to indicate, or include the most extreme of cases. But rather, those who do have options, but simply choose not to act upon them or those who by thier own bad choices find themselves in unfoavroable circumstances and wants someone else to be held responseable.

Those who prefer to just bellyache, or look for a free handouts when there are steps they could take, but do not want to make the effort to take those steps, and instead find it easier to try and just wallow in thier self-pity.

[amanda_isabel]

I get you, DarkMuse.
A thought, though.
Indeed it is only ourselves to blame for a lot of the screw-ups we get into.
But sometimes, it's an offshoot, if you will, of someone else's decision. Still, no matter how we are affected by others' decisions, others are affected by ours, too.
There is a balance to it all.

[lepto]

Dark--I think you will have to look long and hard to find anyone who doesn’t believe in personal responsibility. Clearly the disagreements, when they come, will be in matters of degree. Thus when presented by Jozanny and wessexgirl with extreme examples you are forced to clarify your position by saying you don’t mean people in those particular circumstances. In my mind, by doing this, you create the exception that swallows your rule. In effect you are saying "I believe in personal responsibility except in those cases in which people really aren’t personally responsible.” An exception that, in my mind, is only reasonable but seems in opposition to the hard line position you take in your post.

Finally, the individuals you describe in your post are stereotypes. I would argue that, as with all stereotypes, the reality is usually something very different.

Just my two cents!

[Dark Muse]

It seems to me that there are a good deal of people willing to make excuses for others or accept the excuses make for themselves rather then expecting them to hold themselves responsible for their circumstances.

As for your argument about the stereotypes, my stance upon the issue comes from things that have actually happened. And just my own experiences with other people.

While I have perhaps excluded cases of people living in 3rd world countries, or in another similar positions from this discussion, my stance is still relatively harsh and sever upon the issue.

I could give a personal example which will likely make everyone hate me all over again, but I never let a thing like that stop me.

I know someone who is in an abusive relationship, and she is constantly whinning and crying about it. And I am sick of listening to it, and sick of everyone else enabling her, by just telling her what she wants to hear, and holding her hand. When she has a choice. She is choosing to stay in the relationship when she could get out of it. She is not physically being prevented from leaving, so she is responsible for her situation because she chooses to stay there simply because she is not willing to face the struggles that would come if she were to get out of the relationship.

But until she is willing to actually take steps to correct her situation I do not want to hear another boo woo from her, because she is allowing it to continue with her own inaction.

She is not taking any responsibility for herself, because she finds it easier to just drink in the sympathy of all of her friends when things go bad.

[papayahed]

Yeah, I get what your saying Dark. It drives me crazy - a friend of mine has been complaining and whining about her job and salary for years now. She's been saying she needs to find a new job but after two years (maybe three now) still hasn't even updated her resume let alone even looked for a new job.

[motherhubbard]

I get what you are saying, too. I know this couple that bought a new life on credit- house, cars, clothing, furniture, trips and even a boob job. Once they had everything they wanted they took bankruptcy. That kind of thing drives me crazy and I know that is the kind of thing you are talking about. But there are so many bad situations that are like that, similar on the surface, but not so easily avoidable.

Look at a family in poverty (I know I talk too much about poverty, but it’s my pet issue and one of study for me) that has a 22 year old, high school drop out mother, and a different estranged father for each of five different children. This family lives in section 8 housing and eats what the government pays for. Now can we blame the mother? Of course, I’m here to tell you that the mother can always be blamed! Can we blame each of the five men in the situation, yes and no. Would you stay with a woman who had four children and was screwing her dealer for crack? No way. Would you send that woman money just so she could smoke more crack? Again, no way. Can you blame the children, of course not. But these children are going to have to deal with life in this situation. They have to fight. To be a man in this situation you have to fight. Even middle class children living in a metro area have to be pretty tough, but in poverty situations there is no choice but to fight. Can you blame an eight year old? What about a 12 year old? As long ad this boy is in this environment he has no choice. How can a boy raised in this situation get out? Let me tell you, education has not been top priority in his home- getting more crack for momma has been far more important. And, something else to consider is that when a child is in a home with parent addicted to drugs the addiction is not the worst part. People will do any horrible thing to get their fix, anything, no matter how bad or how much it hurts their kids. Unspeakable things. And a daughter in this situation is in worse shape. She has to fight, too. And she is often at a greater risk of being the one who “pays” for favors. Sex becomes her only resource. School doesn’t meet her immediate needs. Next thing you know she’s pregnant, has no support from the father, no education to speak of, no job. Her best option, at least in her mind, is to try to find another man to shack up with to make ends meet. Can we blame the girl for her decisions? Yes, even though she was 10 or 12 or 14 when she was making these very grown up choices. She made bad choices. What is her escape? Where can a mother go with her children when she has no support, money, education, or job skills?

These are some of the people who bellyache about their problems and they did make poor decisions. But, desperate people don’t have the same options that even slightly more privileged people have.

I’m not saying that everyone in poverty has a life like this. But look at Jean ValJean. What choice did he have?

[Dark Muse]

I agree that people in poverty do not have the same options, and that it is not the fault of the children, but as they grow up they can make some choices to better thier lives, and I can speak from people who I have personally known, who were raised in horrible conditions, and as a result of that, he made some bad mistakes when he was younger, but as he grew up, he matured, and in spite of how he was raised he still knew he had to make changes that what he was doing was not good or right, so he did take steps to better his life.

A person always has a choice to do something. Once a person gets old enough to make thier own desiscions, if they continue on a certain course of bad behvaior, or simply expect the government to take care of them without making an effort, I do not buy into "it is not my fault, I had a bad childhood"

Becasue there are others who had the same, or simillar conditions, but they did raise above it. It is possible.

[motherhubbard]

In many ways I agree. I had a friend who came from an abusive childhood and really did have a lot to overcome. She loved to blame her parents for every bad choice she made and she made a lot. I remember once when we were 16 telling her that at some point she couldn’t blame her folks anymore and would have to blame herself. She really didn’t appreciate that and we weren’t friends after that. The last I heard about her wasn’t good.

I’m really glad that your friend was able to overcome his childhood. It really says a lot about a person who manages to beat the odds. Did he do that with children? Was he able to go to school or get some kind of job training? If he had kids, who watched them while he was in school, and then at work, and then doing homework? Did he have to try to support a family while working at McDonalds and no family or friends to help? If so, how did he have money left over to pay for college? It’s impressive when someone can support a family by working for seven dollars an hour at McDonalds or Wal-mart while they go to college to improve their situation. Seven dollars doesn’t cover rent, gas, utilities, groceries, childcare, diapers, medication… It’s not really enough to cover milk and gas. I suppose all the people working at the low paying jobs should just get better jobs and if they weren’t so lazy or stupid they would. Many many people in bad situations got there before they were old enough to be truly accountable for their desperate decisions. Then what can they do? Sometimes it takes more than hard work; sometimes it takes more than good decisions. I’m not saying it never happens. It does and I’m so glad it does. The fact is that without personal responsibility it won’t happen for those in poverty. But it takes more than that.

If you pull support from these families their children will starve to death. If the government won’t help these children who will? Individuals lack the infrastructure to go into the homes and assist the children. I suppose the government could just take the children from the homes of everyone who uses government assistance, but what could we do with millions and millions of needy children. How do we prevent the parents from having more?

[Dark Muse]

I am not saying that all goverment support should be pulled, but perhaps I am just cyncial, but I do belive that a lot of people use it to handicap themselves instead of using it as an aide to try and get by and hopefully try and eventurally get into a better situation, but there are those who abuse the system. There are those who think they are "intitled to it" without them having to make any personal effort. People who just live off of it, and do not try to find thier own source of income.

I had a friend in highschool, and her father and step-mother never legally got married, becasue with thier combined income they would not qualify for food stamps, even though they both had jobs, and they could have supported thsmelves and thier family without it, they wanted the free hand out.

[motherhubbard]

I am not saying that all goverment support should be pulled, but perhaps I am just cyncial, but I do belive that a lot of people use it to handicap themselves instead of using it as an aide to try and get by and hopefully try and eventurally get into a better situation, but there are those who abuse the system. There are those who think they are "intitled to it" without them having to make any personal effort. People who just live off of it, and do not try to find thier own source of income.

This is the absolute truth! I couldn’t agree with you more.



I had a friend in highschool, and her father and step-mother never legally got married, becasue with thier combined income they would not qualify for food stamps, even though they both had jobs, and they could have supported thsmelves and thier family without it, they wanted the free hand out.
I know! If everything in my life were exactly the same minus the marriage certificate my husband and I would qualify for everything the government has to offer. It would really be nice to have my tuition paid for! I understand your cynicism. Sometimes it looks like bad choices are rewarded and the transverse is that good choices are penalized. I just ask myself if I’m willing to be taken advantage of to help the few who are trying and in truth I am. I want to make a better life for myself and my family. I would totally use any government assistance I qualified for to do that. I know a lot of professionals and blue collar workers who wouldn’t have been able to improve their lives without the help, but I know loads of people who take advantage.

[Ohmyscience]

What do you mean by held responsible and accountable Muse? They may say they are not responsible for their situation but that is not the problem. It is most likely because they are in a bad situation that according to you can be helped where as they think the contrary. For example your friend in a bad relationship. Does she think she can ever find another partner? Do you think she can? Truthfully not everyone is capable of finding one. Perhaps this is why she choses to stay in a bad relationship rather than being alone.

On the opposite end are those that are successful, can they be truly held responsible for their success? Suppose a priviledge kid grows up to be a doctor and life is great for him/her can they really proclaim that they have earned it despite having such an unfair advantage to begin with

[Bitterfly]

I’m really glad that your friend was able to overcome his childhood. It really says a lot about a person who manages to beat the odds.

I really agree with this statement. I've always admired people from difficult backgrounds who've managed to make their lives into something. Children from privileged backgounds, even if they often have to work hard as well to succeed, have it easier on the whole, obviously.

As for those who take advantage of the system, maybe they've only had bad examples in front of them, and a lax upbringing? My parents have always told me to rely on myself, not on others or on government handouts. In consequence, I'd feel ashamed of myself if I took advantage of the system. But what about the people who haven't had the same kind of idea repeated to them since infancy? It makes sense that they should be, on the contrary, proud of wheedling money out of the government even if, especially if, they're not entitled to it. I'm not saying their behaviour is admirable, mind you, just that it's understandable.

[Dark Muse]

What do you mean by held responsible and accountable Muse? They may say they are not responsible for their situation but that is not the problem. It is most likely because they are in a bad situation that according to you can be helped where as they think the contrary. For example your friend in a bad relationship. Does she think she can ever find another partner? Do you think she can? Truthfully not everyone is capable of finding one. Perhaps this is why she choses to stay in a bad relationship rather than being alone


A person is capable of living without being in a relationship. And if she is choosing to stay with the person, she needs to stop complaining about it, because she is making that choice, and she knows the consequences of her choice, so she needs to deal with it, and quit trying to get pity from others when she is responsible for her situation.

As far is "not everyone can find another partner" that sounds like a bunch of bull to me. I cannot say I have ever heard of anyone who has been condemned to living the rest of their life alone because one single relationship did not work out.

Ending a relationship is not the end of the world like so many drama queens are given to try and think.


What do you mean by held responsible and accountable Muse?

Well let me give another example of what I mean by Personal reasonability and accountability.

With the hall obesity thing these days, there had been this group that wanted to sue McDonalds for the fact that they were obese, and there had been talk about raising the tax on fast food the way they did with cigarettes.

They wanted to hold the fast food companies accountable for selling unhealthy food, that others were of their own free will choosing to buy and eat.

People decided that it was not really there reasonability what they were choosing to eat, and that instead of thinking, hey maybe I should not have a big Mac for dinner, or maybe it would be a bad idea to have a super sized coke and fries, and a triple cheese burger.

No, instead of looking at themselves and saying, maybe I am 300 pounds, because I eat crappy food on a daily basis and do not get any exercise, they say, it is the evil cooperation's, because if they were not selling the food I would not be buying it, and I cannot be held responsible for what I am choosing to put into my own body.

And there is a certain fraction of people, and special interest groups who validate this response by saying, oh yes you are right, we need to go after those evil cooperation's. Because how can we expect an individual to have any control over themselves and what they choose to do.

[absurda]

I agree that mankind in general is responsible for everything we are living, and we complain but we don't do anything to change the current situation. But when we look closer, to each individual, then it's more difficult to be so strict. I have a friend who complains a lot about her life and never does anything to change it, but she suffers from obsessive–compulsive disorder. I honestly don't know if she could be held responsible for her situation, because I don't know how her mind works. There is also the personality factor. Some people have a stronger personality, while others are weak. The strong ones can always survive, no matter where life leads them. The weak ones though can't do it by themselves, they need someone to act in their behalf. I think we should avoid judging others, because usually when we do it we assume that the others are like us. But I sympathize with you, because yesterday my boyfriend ate A LOT of white bread knowing that white bread always makes him sick the next day. I told him not to eat it, but he ignored me, because he was hungry. Now, guess what he told me today? He's sick. I just had to tell him "I told you so".

[Dark Muse]

The weak ones though can't do it by themselves, they need someone to act in their behalf. I think we should avoid judging others, because usually when we do it we assume that the others are like us. But I sympathize with you, because yesterday my boyfriend ate A LOT of white bread knowing that white bread always makes him sick the next day. I told him not to eat it, but he ignored me, because he was hungry. Now, guess what he told me today? He's sick. I just had to tell him "I told you so".

Well I am a survival of the fitist type of person. I do not believe in babying those that are to weak-willed to take care of themselves. I think they create their own conditions and I do not think they are truly incapable but others feel sorry of them and enable them. I think they really could make choices in their own life if they were forced to. Instead of told it was ok to be completely infective in their own life, that someone else would just do it for them.

[motherhubbard]

Well let me give another example of what I mean by Personal reasonability and accountability.

With the hall obesity thing these days, there had been this group that wanted to sue McDonalds for the fact that they were obese, and there had been talk about raising the tax on fast food the way they did with cigarettes.


I don't have a problem with taxing things like fast food. Not at all.


Well I am a survival of the fitist type of person. I do not believe in babying those that are to weak-willed to take care of themselves. I think they create their own conditions and I do not think they are truly incapable but others feel sorry of them and enable them. I think they really could make choices in their own life if they were forced to. Instead of told it was ok to be completely infective in their own life, that someone else would just do it for them.


Spoken like someone who has either overcome a great deal with no help (or no help they can recognize) or like someone who has never had much to overcome. Strength may be your hubris. I read a thread about the correct way to use the word hubris last week and now I’m second guessing my usage here.

I don't like to baby people, but I always try to offer encouragement and support.

[wessexgirl]

Well I am a survival of the fitist type of person. I do not believe in babying those that are to weak-willed to take care of themselves. I think they create their own conditions and I do not think they are truly incapable but others feel sorry of them and enable them. I think they really could make choices in their own life if they were forced to. Instead of told it was ok to be completely infective in their own life, that someone else would just do it for them.

Again, this is very harsh. There may be some people who are capable, but many are not. You're tarring everyone with the same brush, and assuming that the situation they're in is their own fault, and they have the means, intelligence, circumstances etc. to change their lives. Your choice of language, i.e. "weak-willed", to describe them, is unfair. You don't know the circumstances behind someones situation, and many people in such circumstances are not "weak-willed", but either of low intelligence, mentally ill, depressed, and/or just plain unlucky. The situation they find themselves in makes them apathetic, if they have the knowledge or intelligence to try and change their lives. What's the saying..."therefore but the grace of God go I?"

[Dark Muse]

Again, this is very harsh. There may be some people who are capable, but many are not. You're tarring everyone with the same brush, and assuming that the situation they're in is their own fault, and they have the means, intelligence, circumstances etc. to change their lives. Your choice of language, i.e. "weak-willed", to describe them, is unfair. You don't know the circumstances behind someones situation, and many people in such circumstances are not "weak-willed", but either of low intelligence, mentally ill, depressed, and/or just plain unlucky. The situation they find themselves in makes them apathetic, if they have the knowledge or intelligence to try and change their lives. What's the saying..."therefore but the grace of God go I?"

I am talking specially of people who are mentally capable but simply do not wish to do anything that would be too much trouble or work, or do not wish to do anything difficult, or those that just want others to take care of them, when they are in fact capable themselves.

That is why I used the term weak-willed, a person who is weak-willed is not the same as a person who has a mental illness. They are a person who has the same potential as anyone else, but chooses not to use that potential.

I am sure all of us at one point or another has known that needy person, who really just wants everyone else to solve all their problems for them, because they don't want to put the effort into doing it themselves.


Spoken like someone who has either overcome a great deal with no help (or no help they can recognize) or like someone who has never had much to overcome. Strength may be your hubris. I read a thread about the correct way to use the word hubris last week and now I’m second guessing my usage here.

I will say this, one thing perhaps to my credit. I am one of those rare people who practice what they preach. I do hold myself to the same standards I hold others to. I judge myself as harshly as I judge others. I do not make excuses for myself. And when I do act in a way which I would condemn in others, I hold myself accountable.

And I am lucky that one of my closet friends is much of the same mind as me, so he does not enable me or validate me when I am acting a fool, he tells it to me straight without sugar coating.

He tells me you are acting like a victim, knock that crap off because you are better then that.

[Jozanny]

Dark, I am not really sure what you are reacting against. Is it complaining, or entitlement? I do not always agree with George Will, the conservative columnist, but I respect him for an independence of mind, and he has mocked the entitlement society, which he sees as a cancer spreading across the country--but self-reliance is not an end all and be all in itself, and that is what you seem to be suggesting. I know from my own personal narrative that it isn't, and I know from living in the inner city that it isn't. The forces of caste, in and of themselves, can be overwhelming, whether you look at how federalism helps the dynastic wealth of Warren Buffet, or simply reinforces the fear within the drug culture of a city like Baltimore, or Philly, where I live.

Yes, you can point to a life narrative like Obama's and see an astonishing success story, but Obama had a certain amount of exceptionalism that a child beholden to the public school system here where I live, doesn't.

I used to be a lot like you, trust me, but government made it nearly impossible for me to emerge on my own into the middle class. I had to lose my job so that the *state* would pay for me to get a personal attendant--and I put up with this program for ten years, under a good deal of duress, violated mentally and more rarely physically by a few of these helpers--and it took the death of my mother to tell my service provider to stuff it, at least for the time being.

But I don't think you've really seen enough to know what you mean--and the forces the play against any individual will when the community around that individual doesn't provide appropriate support. Choice is a small thing when you're a single mother on Walmart wages with three children to feed.

[Virgil]

Sometimes it looks like bad choices are rewarded and the transverse is that good choices are penalized.
Perhaps bad choices are not always rewarded but many times they are. But good choices are always penalized. And then they tell you you're not paying your fair share or that it's patriotoc to pay taxes. That burns me up.


He tells me you are acting like a victim, knock that crap off because you are better then that.
Hear hear!! There are victums in life through no fault of their own. But if you're healthy you have the responsibility to get your a** out into the world and work. I don't feel like paying for them.

[Dark Muse]

Dark, I am not really sure what you are reacting against. Is it complaining, or entitlement? I do not always agree with George Will, the conservative columnist, but I respect him for an independence of mind, and he has mocked the entitlement society, which he sees as a cancer spreading across the country--but self-reliance is not an end all and be all in itself, and that is what you seem to be suggesting. I know from my own personal narrative that it isn't, and I know from living in the inner city that it isn't. The forces of caste, in and of themselves, can be overwhelming, whether you look at how federalism helps the dynastic wealth of Warren Buffet, or simply reinforces the fear within the drug culture of a city like Baltimore, or Philly, where I live.

I am reacting to those that:

Spend most there time complaining about their problems instead of taking action, when in fact there are things they could do to try and improve their situation, but they find it is easier to just feed off of the sympathy of others. And they have found when they boo woo someone will come and hold there hand and tell them it is not their fault. So they do nothing, but still moan and gripe about it. Yet there are things they could actually do to make changes, they just think those options are too hard and don't want to make the effort or sacrifice.

And those who think there bad decisions should be rewarded. Or those that think they are entitled to something, when in fact they are not contributing anything, and they are fully capable of doing so. As well as those, who want someone else to be responsible for their own lack of common sense, and think they should have the right to sue someone else and deserve a fat settlement when in fact they are reasonable. (as in the McDonalds example I gave earlier. I buy junk food, and eat it of my own free will, but the company should be held accountable for the choices I made, because if they did not sell the food then I could not go and buy it. So it is not may fault)

I am also reacting against those that think the government should act as parents and who want to make more laws that are purely for the sake of protecting people from themselves, and anytime someone does something in which basic common sense would tell a person they ought not to do, someone wants to make a law. Instead of accepting the fact, that individual has to suffer the consequences of their deciding to act like an idiot.

In airports now one of the stupidest things, is because of the whole peanut allergy thing, some group complained about the peanuts on airplanes, and now, it actually has a warning label on the bag of peanuts, that says "may contain peanuts"

Now, isn't the fact that it is in fact a bag of peanuts, warning enough that it contains peanuts? Does there really need to be a warning label telling people that a bag of peanuts contains peanuts?

But because some ninny babies got together, they had to waste time and money with that pointless warning.

[Jozanny]

II buy junk food, and eat it of my own free will, but the company should be held accountable for the choices I made, because if they did not sell the food then I could not go and buy it. So it is not may fault).

I think social paternalism is another issue. I have cut down a great deal on junk food, if not processed food--but do you really see the flip side of the coin? In black neighborhoods, junk food and take out lines every corner, because processed corn and trans fat is cheap. Produce is not, and has to be traveled to to purchase farther out from the home territory.

I don't think it is as black and white as you'd like to make it. Should Micky D's be sued? No, but the food industry isn't entirely blameless for the fact that Americans are diabetic and sick from corn fructose.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, there is another side to the issue, but the people who actually wanted to start the lawsuit were not growing in poor neighborhoods, they were people who had options to eat better food, but they choose not to, and then when the obesity epidemic come up, they thought. "Hey maybe I can find a way to profit over the fact that I am fat and lazy by my own actions, I don't have to be responsible, I can blame someone else"

Another little example of more along the lines of what I am getting at here.

Some years ago, there was this big water park out here, and a group of high school girls were there for something, and they had adult chaperones with them, and on one of the big water slides there was an "accident" the reason so called accident occurred was because the girls were not obeying the posted rules, and the chaperones were present when it happened.

On one of the slides, there was a sign posted with the rules, which stated, only one person at a time. But about 15 of them got together and decided to all go at once. And when they did the slide collapsed.

After it happened there was a bunch of outrage against the water park, and wanting it closed down and threats for lawsuits.

Did anyone once think to blame the girls who were inappropriately using the equipment and ignoring clearly posted rules, or the chaperones who were there when it happened. No, it was all the fault of the water park and they all thought they were owed something.

The slide would have been perfectly safe if it was being used in the way it was intended to be used. Those that were involved in the "accident" were directly responsible for it happening, so I do not think any of them, or any of their families deserved a single dime from the park.

[wessexgirl]

The water slide incident is a far cry from what you were saying about "victimhood". You were propounding the philosophy of "the survival of the fittest", and taking a very hard line about people being able to change their circumstances. Incidentally, surely the slide incident, daft as it is, should be praised by you. The "I can do it, so why can't everyone else?" attitude is surely nearer the idiots claiming compensation for their predicament. If they can make a buck from their situation, then why shouldn't they? If the park owner goes out of business, then tough. It's the survival of the fittest, dog eat dog, etc. etc. Darwin's theory of natural selection is being taken to an absurd extreme here, but do you see what I mean? The line you're taking, which offers no flexibility, was taken to the nth degree in Nazi Germany. The "survival of the fittest" in their terms would have had Darwin spinning in his grave. The very phrase has become abhorrent. As this is primarily a literature site, perhaps with Christmas coming up, you could read A Christmas Carol, where Scrooge sums up that theory well, with his comment on decreasing the surplus population. Or perhaps Hard Times, with Gradgrind's mantra about cold, hard facts. Where does human frailty come in your scheme of things?

[absurda]

People are different, what is easy for you may not be that easy for others. When I was in high school, I did't understand why some people couldn't understand math. It came so easily for me, I didn't even need to study. But I used to try and teach my friends, and even though we stayed for hours studying, they still didn't get good grades. They made more effort than I, but I got better grades. When I was in college, I just couldn't learn physics. I did all the exercises, studied a lot, read the book over and over, but still I couldn't get it. It just wasn't in me. Then I understood my high school friends. At work too, we see that some people welcome changes, while others always want things to remain the same. That's because for them, it is more difficult to adjust to changes. People ARE different. I think we should encourage others to overcome their difficulties, but not judge them if they can't.

[RXG1225]

I totally keep the same opinion to you . It can also a question of attitude about life,is you positive toward you life,your enviroument,things happened to you or passive just complain and stay the same place would not like to change it. I am kind of belongs to the latter type, and usully blame myself, hey you!cheer up! complain just doesn't work.

And i want to make friend with people who speaks English and loves liturature so much, i am a chinese girl. If anybody see my message,please reply to me. I will be very honered.

[RXG1225]

I totally keep the same opinion to you . It can also a question of attitude about life,is you positive toward you life,your enviroument,things happened to you or passive just complain and stay the same place would not like to change it. I am kind of belongs to the latter type, and usully blame myself, hey you!cheer up! complain just doesn't work.

And i want to make friend with people who speaks English and loves liturature so much, i am a chinese girl. If anybody see my message,please reply to me. I will be very honered.

[Dark Muse]

The water slide incident is a far cry from what you were saying about "victimhood". You were propounding the philosophy of "the survival of the fittest", and taking a very hard line about people being able to change their circumstances.

Well it is true I have no sympathy for "weak" people, and when I say "weak" here I will clarify I mean people who have no mental or physical disabilities, people who are mentally capable and physically healthy, who choose to be inept in their own life because they want someone else to take care of them. Because they do not want to make any real decision in their own life, and all they want to do is complain about the state they are in, while not taking any steps to change it, when in fact there are options they could do in order to improve the situation.

There are people who do choose 'victim hood' who find it easier to view themselves as a victim then to make any true efforts of their own.

For instance, I had a friend who was always complaining about his life, and his job, and he was a very intelligent person, college educate, multiple degrees, but instead of actually doing anything, he just said, he took on this whole attitude that he was being oppressed by society, and it was the fault of the "man" that he was so unhappy and that his life sucked.

He had options, he could have gotten a new job, instead of complain everyday about the job he did not like. But he choose instead to view his problems as a product of society and because society was the way it was, he was a "slave to the system" and being "kept down"

That is a bunch of bull, he just was not self-motivated to get up and do something about it.

And I got tired of listening to it after a while.

[Dark Muse]

People are different, what is easy for you may not be that easy for others. When I was in high school, I did't understand why some people couldn't understand math. It came so easily for me, I didn't even need to study. But I used to try and teach my friends, and even though we stayed for hours studying, they still didn't get good grades. They made more effort than I, but I got better grades. When I was in college, I just couldn't learn physics. I did all the exercises, studied a lot, read the book over and over, but still I couldn't get it. It just wasn't in me. Then I understood my high school friends. At work too, we see that some people welcome changes, while others always want things to remain the same. That's because for them, it is more difficult to adjust to changes. People ARE different. I think we should encourage others to overcome their difficulties, but not judge them if they can't.

Life is not all about everything being easy. Life is about sometimes have to do something that is hard, and sometimes having to have a struggle. And not just saying "oh well it is too hard, so it is not my responsibility if to do it, it is not my fault, if it is too hard to do"

I have always been horrible at math. But guess what, I still had to take, and pass college math classes. I struggled with math throughout all my school year, even had tutors, but that did not change the fact, I had to bust my arse and do what I needed to do if I wanted to pass, because I would not be able to graduate without the math classes having a passing grade. So I did what I had to do. I did not blame the school for making me take math classes just because they were hard, I did not expect anyone else to fix the problem for me. I do did not think I was owed any special rights just because it was hard for me.

I bucked up and got it done.

[Ohmyscience]

Hey Muse I know what you mean with those who always complain but sometimes their complaints just go unheard despite them having merit or not. I have a friend with a few degrees in chemistry with tons of experience but just could not find a good job. There are some elements of luck involved that is not always up to the person. No matter how hard you try sometimes it does not guarantee success and if you are not being treated fairly why should you not complain? Do you know how difficult it is for black women in this country to secure the same positions as their counterparts?

[Dark Muse]

Well I have respect for those who actually take action and responsibility for attempting to change their circumstances, my arguments are aimed at those who want to complain but never actually do anything about it.

There is a difference between the person who is acutally out there doing something but not getting anywhere

and the person who is contantly complaining about the same things over and over, but instead of looking for a new job, they sitting in front of the TV and just talking about how much everything in their life sucks.

[Virgil]

Hey Muse I know what you mean with those who always complain but sometimes their complaints just go unheard despite them having merit or not. I have a friend with a few degrees in chemistry with tons of experience but just could not find a good job. There are some elements of luck involved that is not always up to the person. No matter how hard you try sometimes it does not guarantee success and if you are not being treated fairly why should you not complain? Do you know how difficult it is for black women in this country to secure the same positions as their counterparts?

I don't believe it. If he can't find a job with several science deggrees he's doing something wrong.

[caddy_caddy]

We are humanized by our weaknesses .




I am huge believer in and proponent of personal responsibility. I am really quite ruthless when it comes to my belief and advocacy of personal responsibility. It is one of the reasons why I am not often very compassionate or sympathetic to listen to others complain about their problems. Because I believe that more often then not the individual is personally responsible for the situation they find themselves in. Either because of past actions they took, or because of actions they refuse to take, because it is easier to just complain and wallow in self pity and have others pat you on the back and tell you it is not your fault. I think one of the biggest problems in the world today is the fact that nobody holds any one accountable for anything anymore. Whatever happens, people have to try and blame some outside force for it, or others excuse them, by saying well it is not really thier fault, it is because of their environment, or society, or this that and the other thing, [/QUOTE]

I do really respect and appreciate strong-willed people ; poeple who assumes responsibility of their life and everything they do but I 've never had the same attitude towards other people .
I think they need help not blame.



I do not believe in protecting people from themselves. If someone does something stupid, they deserve, and should, suffer the consequences of that action, no matter how sever the consequences are, that is how they will learn not to do it again. People should not be babied or parented by the government. Laws should not be made that solely focus around protecting a person from themselves. (i.e. the seatbelt law). If a person sticks their hand in fire, and gets burned, they should not have the right to sue some company because the company did not warn them that fire was hot.



oops no comment!!

[QUOTE]
I am sick and tired of people being compensated, and viewed upon as victims of some "evil" because they lack any resemblance of common sense. I am also tired of people thinking they are owed something from someone else, if they do something stupid. No one looks at themselves any more and says "hey maybe this happened to me, because I acted like an idiot."

I am also tired of listening to people bellyache about circumstances in their life, which they do have the power to change, but they simply do not wish to take the steps to do so, because it would be too hard, and they rather just boo woo, and play the role of the victim, because it is easier and because others have gotten in the habit of accepting this, and patting you on the back and telling you it is not your fault instead of saying "hey why don't you get off your arse and actually do something about it."

You have these options. It might be a struggle, you might have to make certain sacrifices, and it won't be an easy road, but it will get you out of the current situation which you are unhappy with.
People are a victim only of themselves and the fact that they are not willing to look themselves in the eye, and say, just why am I in this situation, in what ways am I reasonable for these circumstances, and what options do I have to take to change it.

this is applied on mature people , who have self- awarness and they belieive in themselves ; I think what we really need is the belief in our power , in our ability to change . As a result I will be responsible .
How can u ask me to be responsible of what I have done when I consider my whole being a result of circumstances(familial,social ,political..).??

[Dark Muse]

How can u ask me to be responsible of what I have done when I consider my whole being a result of circumstances(familial,social ,political..).??[/B]

If a person thinks that everything that happens in their life is the fault of some outside force, they should not be validated for that feeling, others should not further enable and support those ideas. They should not have their hand held and be told it really is not their fault.

They need to suffer the results of what happens to them, so they learn to take accountability of themselves. They need to be told to get over it, and grow up and take some responsibility for themselves.

They should not get a free pass because they want to play the act of the poor victim who does not have to be reasonable for anything that happens to them.

Nor should they be rewarded for such behavior and attitudes.

If people allow them to continue in this way, and no one exepcts them to acutally start taking accountablity for thier own lives, they will have no reason to change, and they will breed more ineffective members of society.

[caddy_caddy]

If a person thinks that everything that happens in their life is the fault of some outside force, they should not be validated for that feeling, others should not further enable and support those ideas. They should not have their hand held and be told it really is not their fault.
What I am saying is that we ashould ask ourselves why those people are irresponsible?
why are u very a responsible person? don't u think that u are risen by your family in a way that develop your sense of independence , strong will , you belief in your self ; I think they taught you that You MAKE your life , it does not make you .


They need to suffer the results of what happens to them, so they learn to take accountability of themselves. They need to be told to get over it, and grow up and take some responsibility for themselves. suffering does not help ; the belief in themselves is what really helps.


They should not get a free pass because they want to play the act of the poor victim who does not have to be reasonable for anything that happens to them.

How can u Judge a person that he is playing that act of the poor victim : maybe he really believes so .


Nor should they be rewarded for such behavior and attitudes. no one says " to be rewarded "!!



acutally start taking accountablity for thier own lives, they will have no reas
If people allow them to continue in this way, and no one exepcts them to on to change, and they will breed more ineffective members of society.I agree with u on the goal but not on the means ; for their sake they need to change their life and the way they think of lit but not in that tough way .

[Dark Muse]

Ok let me just ask you this. Would you really want your pay check, that you go to work to earn to go to support someone who does not think they can be held accountable for anything that happens in thier life, and do not think they have to be responseble for themselves, so they spend all thier time drinking beer and watching TV, without making an effort to get a job, becasue they beleive that everything that is wrong in thier life is the fault of goverment, or society, or thier childhood sucked, so they don't think they should have to acutally make any effort. They just want to sit around and complian without feeling they have any accountablity to do anything about it.

You want your money to finically support that person? Becasue it is not thier fault, in your view that they don't want to activiely do anything for themselves. They have the right to be supported by others.

[TheKmank]

I agree, for one it makes me sick that our current justice system allows for someone to plead insanity. If your legally insane and hurt someone does it make you less dangerous that if your not legally insane and hurt someone? Should it make you any less accountable?

[Dark Muse]

Yes I agree with that, even if someone is legally insane that does not change the fact of the wrongess of what they did, and they should still be punished for it, becasue them being unsane does not undo thier actions and the suffering of the vicitims and thier loved ones.

[blazeofglory]

I partly beleive in persons taking responsibilities for all that happens. But this idea is more of a philosophical or logical argument than of any substance in point of fact.

On the contrary to this we can not totally ignore the fact that there are circumstances in which man becomes helpless and he becomes subdued or falls victims to what others do or to others' actions.

Of course when a man steals he will be accountable for all what happens and yet we can say that when a circumstance makes him accountable for his action like when he was a baby and did know little of what is good or bad and then it is not him and of course his parents who were more accountable for his theft. And his parents are the circumstance that compelled him to be a thief.

[billyjack]

the bucks got to stop somewhere. even if its arbitrary, putting responsibility into the hands of the individual is practical and seems to work for most

[Dark Muse]

On the contrary to this we can not totally ignore the fact that there are circumstances in which man becomes helpless and he becomes subdued or falls victims to what others do or to others' actions.

It is true a person cannot control every circumstance that happens, but they can control how they respond and act to that circumstance.

[zolasdisciple]

if you get your self into a situation you have not right to cry on others shoulders for pity. you got yourself in get yourself out.

[zolasdisciple]

It is true a person cannot control every circumstance that happens, but they can control how they respond and act to that circumstance.

exactly. whatever you are in some way in control to change something or make something else happen.

[zolasdisciple]

Yes I agree with that, even if someone is legally insane that does not change the fact of the wrongess of what they did, and they should still be punished for it, becasue them being unsane does not undo thier actions and the suffering of the vicitims and thier loved ones.

completely true. its a wonder all murderers dont plead insanity so they dont have to pay for their crimes.

[caddy_caddy]

Ok let me just ask you this. Would you really want your pay check, that you go to work to earn to go to support someone who does not think they can be held accountable for anything that happens in thier life, and do not think they have to be responseble for themselves, so they spend all thier time drinking beer and watching TV, without making an effort to get a job, becasue they beleive that everything that is wrong in thier life is the fault of goverment, or society, or thier childhood sucked, so they don't think they should have to acutally make any effort. They just want to sit around and complian without feeling they have any accountablity to do anything about it.

You want your money to finically support that person? Becasue it is not thier fault, in your view that they don't want to activiely do anything for themselves. They have the right to be supported by others.[/

you take the extremes as examples .why!!
I won't finincally support that person but I can support " INSTITUTIONS " that help these kind of people when they ask for help to change their life .
I won't say as u are saying " let them suffer to learn that they are responsible of their life"!
Give them a chance then judge !
[QUOTE]
Yes I agree with that, even if someone is legally insane that does not change the fact of the wrongess of what they did, and they should still be punished for it, becasue them being unsane does not undo thier actions and the suffering of the vicitims and thier loved ones.

so in that way they won't suffer anymore !!!
when they get revenge ( it is a revenge not punishment since the aim of punishement is reform) of an " insane person"!!!!!
It is a revengeful attitude that is applied in the animal kingdom .
The laws are put to make " human beings " more human not to contribute in the process of their dehumanization!

[Dark Muse]

you take the extremes as examples .why!!
I won't finincally support that person but I can support " INSTITUTIONS " that help these kind of people when they ask for help to change their life .
I won't say as u are saying " let them suffer to learn that they are responsible of their life"!
Give them a chance then judge

Becasue the plain and simple truth is that some people do not want to actively do anything to change thier own life, they want everyone else to do it for them. They are unwilling to try and work and think they should get to live off the goverment. They think everyone owes them something and that they should not have to lift a hand.


so in that way they won't suffer anymore !!!
when they get revenge ( it is a revenge not punishment since the aim of punishement is reform) of an " insane person"!!!!!
It is a revengeful attitude that is applied in the animal kingdom .
The laws are put to make " human beings " more human not to contribute in the process of their dehumanization!

Some people cannot be reformed. And if someone kills another person, I do not care what thier excuse is, they need to pay for it, end of story.

And I do support revenge, and have no problem with the idea of revenge. Being insane should not be a free pass. They have done wrong there are consequences to those actions.

I can tell you, I do not think the victims family are going to think, oh well becasue he was insane, then he should not really be held accountable for what he did to our daughter, son, sister, father.

The guilty being insane does not make the vicitims any less dead or the family suffer any less.

[PierreGringoire]

This is an excellent debate, and Muse you are doing a great job of providing a lot of different examples to get your point across.

Muse, you make a solid argument that could be stated in three ways:
1) Everyone should be held accountable for murder, no matter what degree of "sensibility" they have.
2) People who have the "mental capacity" to better themselves should be held accountable and punished if necessary in order for the good of them, and all of society
3) In question form: Do you really want your money to go to provide for these self destructive leeches who do nothing to make the proper adjustments to support themselves. What kind of society does that promote?

First of all, you should not feel like anyone is giving you "the evil eye":yawnb:
Your arguments are well thought out, and very well communicated.

In response to the forum topic:
People do not see their situation in the same terms you see it from the outside looking in. So many variables result in people making irrational and antisocial decisions-- that can be destructive to themselves or to society. Some external factors (which you and everyone has named political, social, environment), some internal. The internal problems are the most complicated to understand from a bird's eye view.

You say "NO, I will not tolerate people and their inability to hold them selves accountable-- they will suffer--and they will learn--they must not be let off the hook--otherwise we are promoting their destructive patterns and jeopardizing the community assuming some will imitate them. If I had a choice, I would let them burn themselves so that they may learn--but I will not make their choices for them, and take on their responsibilities."

I think your right. I keep trying to think of an argument against you. But your stance makes a lot of sense. Keeping in mind that you remain sensitive to those incapable unfortunate souls' suffering. That is absolutely crucial. Realize that it is an ugly reality. You say that it would be a hard choice for them to break their pattern--to do something. OK. Then be sensitive enough to feel their pain. Why? Because, everyone's most trivial problems would be cycles of hell, if someone out there didn't touch them or if they couldn't observe a model. Everything in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. It holds true with your belief in the progress of the community as a whole. (I saw a bit of apathy between you and people who have problems they cannot solve (as stupid as they may seem)--that apathy is potentially dangerous, both for you and the community)

Remember, internal problems are complicated. You cannot weigh them. There are simply too many variables.
One last thing, concerning by what means people should be punished particularly for murder. For me the answer to this question is one of the many wonders of the world.
I learned something today that might relate to this and answer it indirectly.
The Roman Empire could have had an industrial revolution way back in 400 ce. They had the technology. Why didn't they have one? Because they relied on slaves to work their lands. Slaves seemed like an absolute necessity.
But what is our case now 200 years after the industrial revolution. We found a way around slavery. And in doing so-- not only did we become morally respectable-- but also a million times more efficient.

I thought a lot about this, kudos to those who read through it

[Dark Muse]

First of all, yes, you have summed up my points perfectly. You truly understand where I am coming from. One of the trends I have noticed in this thread is that certain people seem to confuse what I am saying and perceive that I am simply passing a judgement against anyone who happens to be having a hardship and that I do not think any one should not be helped at all.

This is not true. I have respect for those who are making efforts and actively trying to do something, even if perhaps they run into bad luck, or other problems come up, I am not judging those that actually try to better themselves regardless of their level of success.

My arguments are aimed fully against those who do not make any attempts for themselves to do anything, and on top of that often wish to complain to everyone else, while they are choosing not to take any action whatsoever for themselves.

As for your thoughts about punishment, I would question your statement that we have trully become morally respectable. I do not think any so called "civilization" is ever truly that civilized.

[PierreGringoire]

yeah, I know what you mean. Great observation.
I was trying to demonstrate that maybe killing people for their heinous crimes is not always the best solution, that there are alternatives in a progressive society. Like prison systems.
But I would definitely scrutinize myself here. Perhaps retribution is necessary. Maybe execution is necessary as long as its not under the tag "retribution." I think in a very simple society. Execution to those who murder is the ONLY way. But maybe there is a more intelligent way to handle those who murder now-a-days. Maybe there isn't a difference. I need to let this one rest.

[Jozanny]

To the extent that I have been following this discussion, although I sympathize with Dark's sentiments, I think she is setting off *personal responsibility* as an artificial construct which breaks down rapidly when you look at socio-State systems as a whole. Have you read Plato's Republic


Argument

The argument of the Republic is the search after Justice, the nature of which is first hinted at by Cephalus, the just and blameless old man --then discussed on the basis of proverbial morality by Socrates and Polemarchus --then caricatured by Thrasymachus and partially explained by Socrates --reduced to an abstraction by Glaucon and Adeimantus, and having become invisible in the individual reappears at length in the ideal State which is constructed by Socrates. The first care of the rulers is to be education, of which an outline is drawn after the old Hellenic model, providing only for an improved religion and morality, and more simplicity in music and gymnastic, a manlier strain of poetry, and greater harmony of the individual and the State. We are thus led on to the conception of a higher State, in which "no man calls anything his own," and in which there is neither "marrying nor giving in marriage," and "kings are philosophers" and "philosophers are kings;" and there is another and higher education, intellectual as well as moral and religious, of science as well as of art, and not of youth only but of the whole of life. Such a State is hardly to be realized in this world and would quickly degenerate. To the perfect ideal succeeds the government of the soldier and the lover of honor, this again declining into democracy, and democracy into tyranny, in an imaginary but regular order having not much resemblance to the actual facts.

or Thomas Paine on liberty?

Or looked at the new emergence of the authoritarianism outside of the traditional West, or read influential utilitarians, like John Stuart Mill (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=7vcxlWKouAMC&dq=John+Stewart+Mill&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=eb-_cjov8v&sig=QCMb6hWSSq8opUQBvkRDCL7YUkM)?

I am not as well versed in creating philosophical constructs as jgweed or Richard might be, but I think there are a number of issues here being left out of the picture, including corporation, which I mentioned earlier during the "lawsuits over junkfood" sidebar.

[Jozanny]

To distinguish my unease somewhat further, since I seem inclined towards a civics lesson,:yawnb:, there is a difference, to my mind, between a negative behavior, like killing, and obligation, whether that obligation is to self, or one's relations to others, or the state.

And as to murder, people normally do not refrain from murder due to good behavior, but rather, self-interest--and when that self-interest conveniently ties in to motive, then things get interesting, to enjoy a pun. In other words, I do not harm because I do not want to be harmed. The law is the furtherest thing from my mind, in terms of keeping myself in line.

[Dark Muse]

For me not wanting to go to jail is a large reason why I don't harm other people, becasue I do have an aggressive personality and I realy don't like people and they irritate me quite easaily.

[Jozanny]

For me not wanting to go to jail is a large reason why I don't harm other people, becasue I do have an aggressive personality and I realy don't like people and they irritate me quite easaily.

While restraining myself from going into detail, I doubt you have much up on me there Dark; anger is a common emotion in cripworld, but assaulting or injuring people may not come as easily as you imagine.

Still, I would encourage you to explore some social and political theory, since you are a fair literary critic in some quarters.:)

[TheInsomniac]

You never know what a person will do, until their pushed into a corner.

A question that always plagues my mind is that is it ok to kill someone for the right reasons? such as shooting an evil dictator for the common interests of the country.

or...

Think of this scenario, 'Your in a camp in africa, their are rebels raiding the village killing everyone in sight. Your and a few others find a cellar to hide, you can see through the floorboards above. A lady with a baby is next to you, the baby starts crying. This jeopardises the lives of 8 other individuals in the cellar whom could make it out alive.'

Would you take the baby from the mother and take its life to save everyone. Or leave the baby to cry and get caught, but die honorably.

And Jozanny... do you think the legal system fairs in your favour?

[Dark Muse]

When it comes right down to tooth and nail, and a question of absolute suvivial. A matter of life and death, as long as it was someone I did not personally care about it, I would sacrifice anyone to save myself. If it was a friend or loved one, then whatever the risk, I would stand behind them.

[PierreGringoire]

Regarding that situation with the baby crying and the dictator:

I believe it is permissible to kill someone if you have reason to believe they are oppressing people to a certain degree. I believe it is a last option though. Even when you do kill them it wasn't necessarily the right thing to do. It would be a terrible deed, with no real justification. But I'd rather deal with that guilt than doing nothing in some scenarios.

Killing a baby because it is crying is foolishness. Think about this, especially you Dark Muse. You said everyone's lives are just as important as animals. Let's assume that that is true. Won't that also mean that other PEOPLES lives are just as important as your own? Why not kill yourself in that situation. What is life to you? You live-- and you die, it really shouldn't matter what order people die in. As a matter of fact nothing should really matter.

I would this is a wrong way of thinking. Let the baby live, and face your end if need be. Shouldn't we be living to ultimately prepare us for death? I would fight back-- perhaps even use myself as a diversion to give those people enough time to find a better hiding place (my self sacrifice would perhaps be witnessed by one of them and cause a real chain reaction of compassion) You know?

[Dark Muse]

Well one of the very misanthropic things about me, is that I do not feel any empathy or compassion for the lives of strangers. What happens to people that I do not personally know or care about means nothing to me.

If someone else's existence does come to interfere with me, or with someone I care about, then I will do what I feel needs to be done to eliminate the problem.

All my empathy and sympathy goes towards animals. I do not much care for other human beings if they are not within the small circle of people that personally mean something to me.

I am not going to sacrifice myself for someone else if I do not have a personal connection with that person. Because thier life has no value to me and I am a survivalist and fighter by nature.

[wessexgirl]

Well one of the very misanthropic things about me, is that I do not feel any empathy or compassion for the lives of strangers. What happens to people that I do not personally know or care about means nothing to me.

If someone else's existence does come to interfere with me, or with someone I care about, then I will do what I feel needs to be done to eliminate the problem.

All my empathy and sympathy goes towards animals. I do not much care for other human beings if they are not within the small circle of people that personally mean something to me.

I am not going to sacrifice myself for someone else if I do not have a personal connection with that person. Because thier life has no value to me and I am a survivalist and fighter by nature.

I find your stance not only shocking, but muddled.

You seem quite happy to announce your lack of compassion and empathy for mankind, to the extent that you would, you say, have no qualms about killing for your own survival, even if it was an innocent baby. Apart from a worrying lack of feeling for other humans, which I think is one of the factors tending towards the definition of a psychopath, you also seem quite blase in your assertion that the insane should be executed. This just doesn't make any sense at all. If someone is insane, they are not in their right mind, and therefore did not commit the act they did knowingly. Their "punishment", would be to commit them to an asylum. You seem to take an unswerving line against killing when others do it, but as you are a "misanthrope" with little feeling for your fellow members of humanity, it's ok for you to assert your willingness to commit such acts.

I know this discussion is academic, and in real circumstances things may be very different, who knows what we are capable of, but I would not like to think that I was so unfeeling.

[Dark Muse]

That is because I differentiate between different types of killing, or different reasons and motives for it.

In the example of the baby, the scenario given indicated the baby would pose a direct threat to my survival.

To me that would be different then if someone just went up and killed a baby because they were bored, or had a bad day, or just because they felt like it.

I do not approve of murder. But as I have mentioned in the revenge thread, I do not view all killing as murder. For me murder happens when an innocent person is killed without any just cause.

To kill another person because their actions are putting your own life in danger I consider just cause.

As to the question about people are insane. The fact that they did not know what they were doing, does not make the person they killed any less dead, and they should not be given a softer sentence for what they have done. Nothing changes their actions and the result of those actions.

As to my being a psychopath, while I do not claim to be completely sane. The difference between me and a psychopath, is that I do actually know the difference between right and wrong, though it is true I have my own code of morals and ethics that does not always agree with societies code. But I would not actually kill another person unless I felt it absolutely necessary to do so.

And the fact that I am actually capable of feeling and caring about other people, though I am not sympathetic to the human race generally. I am actually quite compassionate and caring and loyal to my friends and loved ones.

But it is true, anyone outside of my circle, does not truly concern me.

[mazHur]

DarkMuse:::
That is because I differentiate between different types of killing, or different reasons and motives for it.

In the example of the baby, the scenario given indicated the baby would pose a direct threat to my survival.

To me that would be different then if someone just went up and killed a baby because they were bored, or had a bad day, or just because they felt like it.

I do not approve of murder. But as I have mentioned in the revenge thread, I do not view all killing as murder. For me murder happens when an innocent person is killed without any just cause.

To kill another person because their actions are putting your own life in danger I consider just cause.

As to the question about people are insane. The fact that they did not know what they were doing, does not make the person they killed any less dead, and they should not be given a softer sentence for what they have done. Nothing changes their actions and the result of those actions.

As to my being a psychopath, while I do not claim to be completely sane. The difference between me and a psychopath, is that I do actually know the difference between right and wrong, though it is true I have my own code of morals and ethics that does not always agree with societies code. But I would not actually kill another person unless I felt it absolutely necessary to do so.

And the fact that I am actually capable of feeling and caring about other people, though I am not sympathetic to the human race generally. I am actually quite compassionate and caring and loyal to my friends and loved ones.

But it is true, anyone outside of my circle, does not truly concern me.


I find your stance not only shocking, but muddled.

You seem quite happy to announce your lack of compassion and empathy for mankind, to the extent that you would, you say, have no qualms about killing for your own survival, even if it was an innocent baby. Apart from a worrying lack of feeling for other humans, which I think is one of the factors tending towards the definition of a psychopath, you also seem quite blase in your assertion that the insane should be executed. This just doesn't make any sense at all. If someone is insane, they are not in their right mind, and therefore did not commit the act they did knowingly. Their "punishment", would be to commit them to an asylum. You seem to take an unswerving line against killing when others do it, but as you are a "misanthrope" with little feeling for your fellow members of humanity, it's ok for you to assert your willingness to commit such acts.

I know this discussion is academic, and in real circumstances things may be very different, who knows what we are capable of, but I would not like to think that I was so unfeeling.



I think the feelings expressed by Darkmuse are based on personal 'choice'. Having no feelings for others (not in one's circle) may also mean that the apathetic person also does NOT want any reciprocal feeling from others. Commonly this is not considered to be a commendable societal or human trait but there are exceptions. Maybe Darkmuse has its own reasons.

As far as killing is concerned it is probable in case of self-defense or in the event of a hangman executing a convict on court's order. Many things and actions which are socially and legally valid are invalid when done in personal capacity. even committing suicide is a crime!

[Dark Muse]

I think the feelings expressed by Darkmuse are based on personal 'choice'. Having no feelings for others (not in one's circle) may also mean that the apathetic person also does NOT want any reciprocal feeling from others

Yes I can verify that is quite true. I do not see why anyone outside of my circle should have any care for me, nor am I seeking it. I rather do find it uncomftrable when people I do not know attempt to engage me in some friendly way, becasue such is not what I seek.

When I am minding my own bussiness and someone I do not know attempts to try and have a conversation with me just to be "nice" and social. I really don't like it.

[mazHur]

Yes I can verify that is quite true. I do not see why anyone outside of my circle should have any care for me, nor am I seeking it. I rather do find it uncomftrable when people I do not know attempt to engage me in some friendly way, becasue such is not what I seek.

When I am minding my own bussiness and someone I do not know attempts to try and have a conversation with me just to be "nice" and social. I really don't like it.


I take your point on keeping to oneself but is not always for reasons of being ''nice and social''. Maybe someone likes you or likes something about you and wants to befriend?
I too don't like people to bother me when am out walking or doing something. But, this is not because I dislike them --it's because i don't like others disturbing and distracting me,,,,but again such a feeling sometimes grows stronger with age, especially after 50. I used to feel differently when younger,,,and wouldn't mind 'others' particularly girls getting closer to me!:)

Anyway, that's more like a personality trait and there shouldnt be any problem if you felt that way. However, a little courtesy added would justify societal needs, if you may so wish.:)

[Dark Muse]

I do not really feel much of an inclination to meet new people, and I do not like socializing with others. I have my select few friends and I am content and happy with that. When people try and talk to me, I just want them to go away and I feel like it is a kind of drag having to respond to them.

I am not always just out and out rude, I do express some semblance of basic courtesy when the mood strikes me to do so. But all in all I really do not care what society thinks of me.

I am pretty much apathetic to the opinions that other people may have of me.

[PierreGringoire]

And yet, you are here in this forum, expressing your opinions to complete strangers. I think many people in the real world have backwards priorities. There are so many people who don't take life delicately and sincerely. If you had confidence that everyone handled life RESPONSIBLY maybe you would think different about strangers.

[Dark Muse]

While I disdain socializing, I still enjoy intellectual stimuli, as well as a never ending enjoyment for disagreeing with other people and auguring.

Being online I do not have to truly deal with other people. It is just an exchange of thoughts and ideas, and I can choose to only talk about things which are of interest to me, while ignoring things of which I have no interest.

And I can bypass any unnecessary "chit-chat" I have never been one to engage in "normal" or "mundane" conversations. I do not like talking about my day, or how I am feeling, or pretending I am interested in such things in other people, and such is what happens when you try and talk to people in public.

Online you can just focus in on what you do want to talk about, and you don't really have to get to know anything about anyone or interact with them beyond exchanging thoughts.

[PierreGringoire]

Indeed there are a lot of insincere things that may go on in many social interchanges. I respect the fact that you like to live sincerely, everything you do you mean. Its great to live out what you believe in. Everyman Dies, but not everyone truly lives~Braveheart

But there is a certain void in human cognition. One has to respect that void. The void can be defined as Man's natural tolerance of error regarding abstract thoughts such as the conjuration of one's own "moral code."

Basically, I'm trying to say that its good to continually second guess your fundamental beliefs because of the limitations of the human mind. So how can you both continually second guess yourself and truly live at the same time?

For me the answer is by continually challenging the mind and the memory. Exercising its focus as well as improving its efficiency. Therefore the margin of error, when you fight for what you believe in with tooth and nail, is as small as possible. This to me is personal responsibility.

[MattG]

Dark Muse,

Have you ever read this book? (http://www.amazon.com/Might-Survival-Fittest-Ragnar-Redbeard/dp/0972823301/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228747975&sr=8-1)

I have a feeling you might like it. It becomes a tad tedious in repetition of theme, but overall it's very original in voice and somewhat original, for its time, in theme.

[Dark Muse]

It sounds quite interesting, I will add it to my list