A Song of Ice and Fire

[Cellar Door]

Has anyone ever read any of A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin?

I realize fantasy sagas are not everyone's cup o tea (I didn't think it was mine, either, until I read the first one)

However, I am dying for the next book, which keeps getting delayed...

Thoughts, anyone?

[Drkshadow03]

Good book series. Probably one of the better Epic fantasy series ever written. Of course it's not finished yet so it's too early to judge; it could still go downhill, and I find it equally as frustrating that he is taking forever to finish the next one, especially since the last one was subpar in what has been an excellent series thus far.

I love how unlike many fantasy authors who take a faux medieval setting, his fantasy world explicitly draws parallels with real medieval history, but still maintaining enough differences and fantastical wonder to call it a genuine fantasy. Unlike most fantasy, I love how there is not really really evil characters in the book, all the character's motivations are a shade of gray and their reactions to events are realistic, and how everyone from those who seem evil and unredeemable in the beginning but are reevaluated as the story progresses and they get to explain their motivations themselves to the way characters we were meant to empathize with can commit horrible atrocities. This is a world where good and evil doesn't exist, except in people's own viewpoints, only pragmatism and power.

I love how the title has mythological significance within the fantasy world as it refers to a prophecy about the main characters, reflects the overarching war unfolding between the god of fire and god of ice hinted at, and also draws on Robert Frost's poem which deals with the ambiguity of positions (how either fire or ice can bring destruction and there is no use fighting over it). This allusion reflects the world itself and the character; there is no good or evil in this world, but only a perspective and either side seems capable of immense destruction.

[JBI]

I found the first on boring, and the writing rather meh. I tried the second one, but found no real development in terms of style, and put it down. I admit, for epic fantasy, it is pretty good, but I remain rather skeptical about the conventions of epic fantasy.

That being said, they are not bad books, but I didn't find the first 1 and a half I read to be very inspiring. Also, the Faulknerian narrative flipping was, I find, terribly mishandled, and only worked to slow down plot progression in a plot-driven novel.

[Cellar Door]

I love it to the point of near obsession when I am reading them... However I am frustrated by the delaying of the next one. It was supposed to come out like, a year, maybe even two, ago. Here and now I make my vow: This is the last time I ever start a series book that is still being written.

[PabloQ]

I read the first 3 of these and enjoyed them, but I am generally frustrated by the drawn out saga. Is there an end in sight? According to Martin, the fourth one was split into two, which adds to the mystifying length of time between books. According to Barnes and Noble, the next one is due out in November. My theory is that Martin has grown bored with his own story. I believe your doomed when one sits down and scribbles, Book One of the Dragon's Toe Nail saga. One should be able to solve for x. How many will there be? Don't know? Well, it may be because the author had this great idea, can make a bunch of money by turning out door stops that move the story along, but in the end has no end. I'm interested to know if anyone has ever read one of these multi-volume sagas to the end and said to oneself, "That was fantastic." I've read several. Can't think of one that did that for me.

[Lioness_Heart]

What's the first one called? I think I'd quite like to give it a go... apart from being drawn-out, would you recommend it?

[Dark Muse]

I have the books, at least some of them, I do not have the whole seris but I have not read them yet, as I am still reading both Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind and Wheel of Time by Robert Jordon. So I will wait untill finishing one of those before starting a new series

[Cellar Door]

Lioness- here are the books:

* A Game of Thrones (1996)
* A Clash of Kings (1998)
* A Storm of Swords (2000)
* A Feast for Crows (2005)
* A Dance with Dragons (forthcoming)
* The Winds of Winter (forthcoming)
* A Dream of Spring (forthcoming)

Don't hold your breath waiting for the forthcoming ones though...

Also, Dance is not coming out in Nov.; he isn't finished writing it yet. *sigh

[PennKen2009]

I know this is an older thread, but I just recently started the 2nd, A Clash of Kings, and I gotta say I love it even more than the first. I've spent hours sitting in borders, sipping coffee and reading. Anyways, I know I have a ways to go, but I'm excited for the release of A Dance With Dragons as well. He posted a blog in february of 2009 on his livejournal. I don't know if anyone saw it, it's here (http://grrm.livejournal.com/74995.html). So yeah, there's an update. I hope he's right this time (I agree with him that he did not lie). Yes, it has been a long time in writing, but at the same time, he is only human and there is a lot of material in these books and he has other projects he's been working on as well. So I'll sit patiently and read my book and get really excited when it gets here :lol:.

[mortalterror]

I read all four of the books this year. I liked the first three, but the last seems like a bait and switch. Also, Martin's books just keep getting longer and longer. He regularly kills off main characters, but he keeps adding new ones which aren't as interesting as the one's they supposedly replace. A Feast For Crows was mostly filler and could have been less than half the size it is, especially since it's only half a book. My favorite characters Tyrion, Bran, and Jon Snow, haven't been in a book since 2000. I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for people who've been following this series since the beginning. Also, I thought AFFC was woman heavy with Brienne and Circe dominating the action. It seemed like a blatant attempt on Martin's part to correct the perception that Medieval fantasy is misogynistic. That's all well and good, but could he possibly have done so with less annoying characters. And what's with his villain turning on a dime into a goody two shoes? I'm still looking forward to the sequel which I guess will be out in 2020.

[JBI]

I read all four of the books this year. I liked the first three, but the last seems like a bait and switch. Also, Martin's books just keep getting longer and longer. He regularly kills off main characters, but he keeps adding new ones which aren't as interesting as the one's they supposedly replace. A Feast For Crows was mostly filler and could have been less than half the size it is, especially since it's only half a book. My favorite characters Tyrion, Bran, and Jon Snow, haven't been in a book since 2000. I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for people who've been following this series since the beginning. Also, I thought AFFC was woman heavy with Brienne and Circe dominating the action. It seemed like a blatant attempt on Martin's part to correct the perception that Medieval fantasy is misogynistic. That's all well and good, but could he possibly have done so with less annoying characters. And what's with his villain turning on a dime into a goody two shoes? I'm still looking forward to the sequel which I guess will be out in 2020.
His novels are misogynist, at least, the first two at any rate. No point denying it - maybe we can get a merge with the other thread, where I posted my real critique of the text. The little bit I posted here seems rather dull in comparison to my other post.

[JBI]

I have the books, at least some of them, I do not have the whole seris but I have not read them yet, as I am still reading both Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind and Wheel of Time by Robert Jordon. So I will wait untill finishing one of those before starting a new series

Geez, here I go off criticizing Martin as a Misogynist, and Goodkind gets thrown into the mix. Though, I guess Goodkind's fascination with women dominatrixes raping men could be considered a counterbalance? Supposedly in the later novels, not one woman goes unraped, and there is even a long, supposedly tediously graphic long rape sequence toward the end of the series. These sick adolescents and the way they get their kicks - yuk.

As for Jordan, well, I hold nothing against him. His writing is pretty meh, but ultimately, his intentions seem good, and, from a political perspective, he seems to be rather harmless. I like him in concept, in the sense that he took the concept of "World Building" to a whole new level with his text, and ultimately built a full world, and used his text to explore the very corners of it. Unfortunately, he dragged his series on to the point where he wasn't even able to finish it (and ultimately died before completing it) and really lacked a sort of craftsmanship necessary to be a truly great writer, but in a sense, I think there was something, quite harmless, and perhaps even touching within the first couple of books (I'm dragging my memory back almost a decade here) especially with the emergence of female and male characters playing side by side, yet the female not ultimately being subjected to the "sex object" role that usually accompanies such fiction.

In truth, as an artist, I would say Jordan has perhaps done some good for the genre, in that he has perhaps opened it up to the featuring of more perspectives, and more sort of relativism. His use of too much Black and White on his canvas does complicate things for me a bit, but ultimately, I think he redeems himself in many places by making the main badguys somewhat more human: of course, he still keeps with the George MacDonald convention of creating badguys that people don't feel sorry for when they are bashed in, which sets the genre back perhaps, as any such forms of "enemy" ultimately darkly tinge the diegesis of a text (in our world, it is quite easy to create the us and them dichotomy, and, for instance, Nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki) yet on the whole, I think he perhaps approaches something which can be described as a good step, well, at least in his earlier works.


When it comes to fantasy, generally my interest really, at this moment, seems to really search for a voice that contains a rounded perspective. The closest I have come, with the exception of Le Guin who is terrific, is perhaps Caitlin Sweet, who I think has a good sense of prose and language (even though she writes for a young audience, her command of English is rather remarkable) and also a good sense of roundedness, and also, (finally) an approachable writing of a female heroine that perhaps isn't so defined by stereotype or convention, or even hypersexuality as is the case, often, in Mercedes Lackey's texts. I haven't read her second book yet, but on the whole, if I was to choose a fantasy book that I really like from the past 20 years, I'd have to go with A Telling of Stars.

Of course, that isn't epic fantasy; epic really depresses me, in the sense that I am yet to find a work that really sticks out and inspires. Generally, in terms of epic prose, I think it is safe to say, that perhaps the most significant text composed would be The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which essentially, from the way I understand it, has been (even before its completion, as a form of folk myths and traditions) the most significant. I doubt any text could approach that level of power, and the decent into detail about the rather trivial (like how magic works or whatnot) seems to put a fence in front of achieving something like that.

Perhaps if Lord of the Rings stood for something more than just a sentimental take on contemporary history (with some anti-industry tossed in, as is the British fashion) then it could have achieved something. Certainly the environmental movement seemed to feel something, but the currents, ultimately, were not strong enough, the characters not important, the plotting kind of boring, the prose rather dry, the significance rather minimal. There hasn't, I would argue, been a significant epic fantasy worth while that I have heard of, mind you, written in English. Perhaps there is one hiding somewhere, but I am yet to find any trace of it. Somebody told me I could find that it Bujold, for instance, but boy was I disappointed.

[higley]

I quite like the books (funny, I've been thinking about this series lately as the next is "due" soon and HBO's making a pilot for a live series) and this comes from somebody who toes gingerly around fantasy books. His manner of writing seems to defy some of the stereotypes I associate with the genre. Fortunately I only encountered the books last year so I haven't been waiting as long as others for the next installment (and I still have the naive optimism of someone new to the series.)

Unfortunately, all my favorite characters get killed off or maimed.

[Seraphina]

I read them all in the same week just as FFC came out...in a lot of ways I love the series, but I've since got into Steven Erikson, and it's paled in comparison.

[Tsuyoiko]

I love this series, and I'm anxious for the next installment. Hopefully, the fact that Martin has taken so long over it bodes well for its quality.

My favourite episode of the series is Daenerys' marriage with Drogo, her "sun and stars". Although she was married to him against her will, she came to love him. When he is maimed by a witch, Daenerys smothers him, in one of the most moving passages I have ever read. It still brings tears to my eyes to think of it.


Also, the Faulknerian narrative flipping was, I find, terribly mishandled, and only worked to slow down plot progression in a plot-driven novel.

I think third person limited point of view is a good device to handle the vast number of different characters and plotlines, and it helps me keep track of what was going on. Considering that I've read each installment so far almost at one sitting, it certainly didn't spoil the pace for me.

Also, I don't think these novels are plot-driven. I think the strength of the series is in the richness of its characters. They are truly realistic. They have distinct personalities that are instantly recognisable, but they evolve like real people; they learn from their experiences. Also, as the novels progress we get to know them better, just like we do with real people.

One small niggle with this narrative mode is that if a main character doesn't have their own POV, you can be pretty sure their days are numbered. A bit of a giveaway :lol:

[higley]

I think third person limited point of view is a good device to handle the vast One small niggle with this narrative mode is that if a main character doesn't have their own POV, you can be pretty sure their days are numbered. A bit of a giveaway :lol:

Actually nobody seems to be safe. :P The POVs are just a little safer than the rest.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I started reading these for a bit of a change. I've not really read much fantasy for about 10 years at least. I'm also watching the series in bits after I have read it. I've read the first book and just started the second and will see how that pans out before going further. Have these books stopped at 7 or are they still being written?

[Admin]

They're still being written. There are 5 right now.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh right, thanks. Some of those 5 are split into two parts though aren't they?

I'm quite enjoying them I must say. I like Arya, Tyrion the Imp and Daenerys in particular. I think Tyrion is the most interesting character. He reminds me of the fool in Lear to some degree. The way he perceptively criticises everyone but at the same time always gets away with it.

[OrphanPip]

Oh right, thanks. Some of those 5 are split into two parts though aren't they?

I'm quite enjoying them I must say. I like Arya, Tyrion the Imp and Daenerys in particular. I think Tyrion is the most interesting character. He reminds me of the fool in Lear to some degree. The way he perceptively criticises everyone but at the same time always gets away with it.

The projected 4th novel ended up being split in two, so the 4th and 5th novels were initially intended to be one novel. They were split on the basis of characters, so it lead to one of the most annoying features of the series, two books where a large chunk of the main characters are absent. Plus there was a 5 year break between the two novels which made the absence far more apparent.

[Paulclem]

Oh right, thanks. Some of those 5 are split into two parts though aren't they?

I'm quite enjoying them I must say. I like Arya, Tyrion the Imp and Daenerys in particular. I think Tyrion is the most interesting character. He reminds me of the fool in Lear to some degree. The way he perceptively criticises everyone but at the same time always gets away with it.

Tyrion certainly is. What's interesting about him is that he has a grotesque body, yet many of the other characters exhibit grotesque minds in contrast to his reasonableness.

I came across the series by accident, but have enjoyed all the books, though I agree about the less interesting ones being mainly in A Feast For Crows.

[LitNetIsGreat]

The projected 4th novel ended up being split in two, so the 4th and 5th novels were initially intended to be one novel. They were split on the basis of characters, so it lead to one of the most annoying features of the series, two books where a large chunk of the main characters are absent. Plus there was a 5 year break between the two novels which made the absence far more apparent.

A five year break must have been a blow for anyone reading it at the time.


Tyrion certainly is. What's interesting about him is that he has a grotesque body, yet many of the other characters exhibit grotesque minds in contrast to his reasonableness.

I came across the series by accident, but have enjoyed all the books, though I agree about the less interesting ones being mainly in A Feast For Crows.

Yes that's true. In the first book he talks about his mind being something he had to rely on which is why he turned to books. In the chapter I've just finished but one he mentions the ideal being his mind and his brother's (Jamie's) body, if he were to have children.

I don't know if you have seen the series (you probably have) but that's worth watching as well. I'm going to watch one in a bit because my head packs in at this time on a Friday night and I can't read that productively.

[Admin]

Your lowly Admin, when not running this site, actually works on the official prop replicas from the series and books. Its really pretty cool.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Your lowly Admin, when not running this site, actually works on the official prop replicas from the series and books. Its really pretty cool.

WHAT?!?!?!? You're just telling us now? Have you worked with the swords?

[Paulclem]

A five year break must have been a blow for anyone reading it at the time.



Yes that's true. In the first book he talks about his mind being something he had to rely on which is why he turned to books. In the chapter I've just finished but one he mentions the ideal being his mind and his brother's (Jamie's) body, if he were to have children.

I don't know if you have seen the series (you probably have) but that's worth watching as well. I'm going to watch one in a bit because my head packs in at this time on a Friday night and I can't read that productively.

It was a blow. My brother and I were waiting, and every now and then I would pop into waterstones to check the publication date. I know it was put back once, but maybe it was more.

I got the boxset with my son over the summer. We watched a couple of episodes, and then he went to Japan for his year abroad. I'm saving it for when he returns. It is very good.

[Paulclem]

Your lowly Admin, when not running this site, actually works on the official prop replicas from the series and books. Its really pretty cool.

That must be pretty good. The series is great so far. they've done a good job.

[qimissung]

Your lowly Admin, when not running this site, actually works on the official prop replicas from the series and books. Its really pretty cool.

How do you mean? Do you help make them? And, um, how did you get that job????

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

If you've held the swords, I'm gonna ****!

[Admin]

Yes, I've held them, I was legally responsible for them for around a month. Yes, it was awesome. Like George Lucas sending you Luke Skywalker's lightsaber.

Your lowly admin was a web designer, who decided to make some of his own content sites and he became a website publisher. Then he decided to try ecommerce, since it is a type of website too, and he became a retailer (of swords and medieval collectibles). Then his biggest supplier went bankrupt and he had a hard time getting inventory, so he decided to try to move up the food chain to better secure his position and his inventory. He contacted an author he liked with great swords in his books. He was able to reach a deal with the author and signed a license for book replicas. He hired people from the former supplier who went bankrupt and went into production. A couple months later HBO licensed the same books, and over 3 years or so developed the TV show. And then your lowly admin was able to get a license from HBO as well. So when admin is busy and doesn't visit litnet very much, this is what admin is doing. And that is how you go from web designer to arms dealer.

If you watch The Big Bang Theory on CBS, that sword they bought they now hangs in their department is one of mine.