The Brothers K

[Molko]

Has any one here read the Brothers Karamzov? If so, what is your opinion on the novel...Thanks :)

[nikki]

I did maybe 2 years ago, I remember i fund it strong and that i prefered the teenager ( l'adolescent, in french) an amazing memory of a sad-boring-russian life... After that, u just can think yours is so cool-free and maybe boring too, but, u probably know what im sayin'.
Fedor Dostoiewski was a damned master of sadness that's why we like him so much

[Molko]

Ah - finally a reply! Lol. Yeh, I guess that is why I find his novels captivating. He seems to capture misery and depression at its most poignant. Excellent stuff :)

[Idril]

I've read all his novels and I have to say, and I know I'm in the minority here, but Brothers Karamazov is easily my least favorite of Dostoevsky. I think my main complaint with it is that there is so much in there that doesn't really have anything to do with the main story and the main example of that is the pages and pages devoted to Alyosha. He plays such a minor role in the actual main plot, as far as I can see, his main purpose is to make us love him and think him good and worthy so that when we see his love and devotion and forgiveness of Dmitri, we too will see that Dmitri is worth sympathy, his love humanizes Dmitri in a way that can't be done otherwise but I think that goal could've been realized without pages and pages of his religious training and thoughts and then there was that weird relationship he had with that boy and I don't mean weird as in inappropriate just weird in that it was somewhat pointless because it's not connected to anything. Now if he had wanted to devote pages and pages to Ivan, relavant or not, I would've been happy, he was a fascinating character and one I would've love to know more about.

[MikeK]

Interesting post, Idril. There's nothing to disagree about if you say that it's your least favorite Dostoevsky novel, that's just a matter of opinion: but I'd certainly disagree with your saying that "there is so much that doesn't really have anything to do with the main story." And I'd further disagree with saying that so many pages devoted to Alyosha are superfluous and that we need him to "humanize" Dmitri in a way that can't be done otherwise.

First, the main antagonism in this novel (the religious/philosophical/ideological questions) is between the worldview posed by Ivan - and all of his disciples - and the worldview posed by Zosima - and all of his disciples. Briefly, it's the antagonism of faith vs doubt, belief vs unbelief and all of the consequent ideas. Alyosha is the character in this novel who carries Zosima's (and Dostoevsky's) beliefs into the world outside of the monestary. He embodies the antithesis to Ivan's rebellion, and serves as the continuation of Zosima's thoughts in the novel after Zosima dies in Book 7. The book would not really be comprehensible without Alyosha and all of the focus on what he believes, it is the counterpoint to Ivan's rationalistic humanism.

Secondly, as to whether we need Alyosha to "humanize" Dmitri, I couldn't disagree more. Books 8-9, where Alyosha doesn't appear at all, do that job pretty well, along with many other passages and chapters in the novel.

Lastly, I'd say that you're wrong about there being a lot that doesn't have to do with the main story. The main idea, as I said before, is the conflict between faith and doubt, belief and unbelief, living and acting in a world with or without God. The plot is a continuation of that theme - the murder of a father - and all of the accompanying issues like responsiblity, guilt, forgiveness, etc. Every episode in the novel illuminates some aspect of that conflict. As a couple of examples:

Read Book X, "Boys", and the entire Ilyusha sub-plot as an echo of Book V and Ivan's rebellion. Pay attention to Kolya's actions and the Grand Inquisitor, and Ilyusha as a counterpoint to Ivan's argument of unredeemed suffering of children. Look at Book IV, "Strains" or "Lacerations" (depending on the translation), as symbolic of what happens to people who accept Ivan's worldview. Look at the episodes from Zosima's life in Book VI as a reflection of the three brothers. There are countless other examples. Every episode and chapter within this book helps us better understand the main theme. It's the richest, most inter-connected novel that I've ever read, in terms of nothing being superfluous.

[Boris239]

I agree with MikeK and think that Alyosha plays a very important role in the novel. The conversation between him and Ivan, when Ivan tells the story about how a little boy was torn apart while his mother was viewing just for the pleasure of one of the nobles, is one of the most important parts of the novel. The first Alyosha's response : "Shoot him" is of course not very christian and this is also my reaction to this story. For my tastes Alyosha is too perfect, almost like prince Mishkin in the "Idiot". There is no surprise that he is viewed amost as "God's fool", there is the word "jurodiviy" in Russian- I'm not sure if it's used in English.

[Idril]

I'm not even going to argue with your points because I don't disagree with anything you've said. There are some characters you connect with and some you don't and I just did not connect with Aloysha at all and I suppose that's why I found the amount of pages devoted to him somewhat laborious. I certainly don't contend that Aloysha isn't necessary at all, I do see that he is a balancing force to Ivan and to the general 'godlessness' around him but I still think he could have served that purpose with a few less words, if you're going to use one character to balance another, than balance them, don't let one dominate the narrative which I felt Aloysha did...but who am I to question the genius of Dostoevsky? Perhaps I should try to reread it and wipe my mind clean of my intense dislike of that character but I'm not entirely sure I'm up to the task.

[mia wallace]

i thought father zossima turned out to be the devil? i just read this, maybe i read it wrong

[MikeK]

I think you're thinking of someone else.

[Daniel A. C.]

[Spoilers below]

This is my favorite Dostoyevsky novel (of those I've read) as well.

As for Aloshya, I think he is in the novel more as an observer than as a character. He is, I think, the generally kind and sane person, who we can use to judge the many other characters who are under the spell of various types of madness.

I think a lot of Dostoyevsky's fiction centres around the psychological effects of idea and ideologies, and that the Brothers Karamazov revolves around Ivan's rejection of God (it is more a sheer rejection of God, whether or not he exists, than atheism) and Zosima's reverence and piety.

I don't think that the novel in anyway disproves Ivan's theories, but everyone in the book who was dominated by an ideology like Ivan's - Smerdyakov, Lise, Katerina (maybe?), and Ivan himself - "crack up", as the novel says, while those who abandon this sort of thinking for a worldview like Zosima's - Aloshya, Dmitri, Grushenka, Kolya - end up weathering the emotional storms of the novel.

I think it's significant that Ivan's rejection of God was based on the suffering of children, that Lise, who takes a view like Ivan's, ends up fanticizing about hurting children, while Aloshya, Zosima's disciple, is helping children in the final scene of the book.

[MikeK]

I think it's significant that Ivan's rejection of God was based on the suffering of children, that Lise, who takes a view like Ivan's, ends up fanticizing about hurting children, while Aloshya, Zosima's disciple, is helping children in the final scene of the book.

Great point. Furthermore, it's not just that Lise, Ivan's disciple, fantasizes about hurting children, but it's Ivan himself who actually does so. Remember the exchange between Alyosha and Ivan in the street in Book XI. Ivan insults Lise, and then this passage ensues:

"How can you, Ivan, how can you?" Alyosha cried warmly, in a grieved voice. "She is a child; you are insulting a child! She is ill; she is very ill, too. She is on the verge of insanity, too, perhaps.... I had hoped to hear something from you... that would save her."

"You'll hear nothing from me. If she is a child, I am not her nurse. Be quiet, Alexey. Don't go on about her. I am not even thinking about it."

Dostoevsky went out of his way in this novel to portray different characters' reactions to, and actions towards, children as an insight into their character. And it's the great defender of children in Book V, Ivan, who corrupts, and then insults, a child himself.

[Sabo]

Dostoevsky is my favorit author and Br K is his best work. For a few years I used it as a Bible :)

I agree with MikeK, especially his first post on the subject.

I would think that the reson why some people sympathize with Ivan is because he represents an intellectual of the new era. He's a skeptical, doubting character, as are many of us. But he represents everything that Dostoevsky was against. Just read the Great Inquisitor-chapter (never read Dostoevsky in English, I hope i got it right).

[MikeK]

In English it's called the Grand Inquisitor. But you were still right, it was Great.

[Sabo]

of course, thanks

[poofyhead15]

I read the Brothers Karamazov last year, but had difficulty grasping all the deeper meanings of the book. I just started rereading it, hoping to get a lot more out of it this time around...it's definitely a complex read.

[andave_ya]

I'm reading TBK right now and thoroughly enjoying it. I agree with Idril that a lot seems to be out of place with the story -- I'm reading Ivan's speech to Alyosha right now in the Pro and Contra section -- but I'm finding so much in it that it's ok by me.

[Psynema]

I liked it, but if you're not religious, you may not be into it as much as christian readers.

It's also, IMO, not quite in the style of past Fyodor novels, often switching perspectives where a lot of his more popular works were more insular.

It is deep, but found it quite theatrical in characterizations, where I found other novels/stories much more believable and timeless.

I'm not swaying you from reading it as I liked it, but I do recommend reading his other works first just to get the jist of his philosophy - Brothers Karamazov requires quite a bit of thinking and piecing together the character arcs yourself more so vs. other novels.

One thing I really wish Brothers K would've had was Alyosha conquering with adversity - someone cheating him, doing him wrong, just to see how he stacks up. Party of the novel's point is he's an amature in life, so Zosima orders him to return to secular society, but so far, all Alyosha does is try to help others, and we don't really see how he'd handle dealing with his own anger and a lot of ways he seems to ignore it, or calmly state biblical advice and walk away.

The most we see of him is at the very end, but that was more out of pity/sadness than actual personal conflict.