the idiot

[Gladys]

I have just seen a compelling link between two idiots: Lizaveta and Prince Myshkin (from 'The Idiot'). Both appear simpletons; both are love personified!

Lizaveta is the friend of the destitute prostitute, Sonia, while the prince is a friend of such unlikelys as Ippolit, Nastasya Filippovna, and the murderous Roghozin. On the death of Lizaveta, Sonia takes over her divine, self-sacrificing role.

When Sonia says of Lizaveta, "She will see God", I am reminded of the Beatitude, "Blessed are the pure in heart". And later, Sonia tells Raskolnikov, "I have another, a copper one that belonged to Lizaveta. I changed with Lizaveta: she gave me her cross and I gave her my little ikon. I will wear Lizaveta's now".

Are the characters of Lizaveta and Sonia, curtain-raisers for the fully developed character of the selfless Prince Myshkin, a couple of years later? The parallel between Raskolnikov and Roghozin is also interesting.

[bazarov]

Well, Lizaveta is a total idiot :D, and Myshkin is just a social idiot.

Raskolnikov and Rogozhin? Why?

[Psynema]

Are you two married? LOL - no offense, seems like most of the board is you two arguing...politely though :thumbs_up

[bazarov]

No, she refuses :D Smart men will always respect opinion of another smart men.

[Gladys]

Raskolnikov and Rogozhin? Why? What do Raskolnikov (Crime and Punishment) and Rogozhin (The Idiot) have in common?

- Both are highly strung, volatile and hot-tempered: intense but sinister.

- They murder defenceless women (Lizaveta/Nastasya Filippovna).

- Each is blest with an angelic friend seeking his salvation (Sonia/Prince Myshkin).

- Each finally recounts ‘with marvellous exactness the details of his crime’

- They face long prison sentences in Siberia for murder.

- Their mothers are spared ‘the knowledge of this dreadful calamity’.

[bazarov]

- Both are highly strung, volatile and hot-tempered: intense but sinister.

- They murder defenceless women (Lizaveta/Nastasya Filippovna).

- Each is blest with an angelic friend seeking his salvation (Sonia/Prince Myshkin).

- Each finally recounts ‘with marvellous exactness the details of his crime’

- They face long prison sentences in Siberia for murder.

- Their mothers are spared ‘the knowledge of this dreadful calamity’.


Interesting, I never thought about that.
But, Raskolnikov never tried to kill Sonia, Rogozhin tried with Prince. Also, was Alyona capable of defending herself? I mean, everyone is talking about Lizaveta, like she is his only victim.

Great observation, really.:)

[Gladys]

But, Raskolnikov never tried to kill Sonia, Rogozhin tried with Prince. Also, was Alyona capable of defending herself? I mean, everyone is talking about Lizaveta, like she is his only victim.
The parallel between the Prince Myshkin and Sonia/Lizaveta is intriguing. Rogozhin threatens to murder the prince out of fervid jealousy. Raskolnikov murders Alyona, on principle. Before he meets Sonia, he murders Lizaveta out of selfish, hot-headed expediency.

"Lizaveta, who sold old clothes. Didn't you know her? She used to come here. She mended a shirt for you, too." Sonia and Lizaveta are close friends, who think and act as one. They are living angels, and on the death of Lizaveta, Sonia takes over her divine, self-sacrificing role - just as the prophet Elisha succeeds Elijah, taking his mantle. When Raskolnikov kills Lizaveta, in a sense, he almost kills Sonia.

Poor Lizaveta! Why did she come in? . . . It's strange though, why is it I scarcely ever think of her, as though I hadn't killed her? Lizaveta! Sonia! Poor gentle things, with gentle eyes. . . . Dear women! Why don't they weep? Why don't they moan? They give up everything . . . their eyes are soft and gentle. . . . Sonia, Sonia! Gentle Sonia! And much later, during Raskolnikov's confession to Sonia,

"Take a good look."

As soon as he had said this again, the same familiar sensation froze his heart. He looked at her and all at once seemed to see in her face the face of Lizaveta. He remembered clearly the expression in Lizaveta's face, when he approached her with the axe and she stepped back to the wall, putting out her hand, with childish terror in her face, looking as little children do when they begin to be frightened of something, looking intently and uneasily at what frightens them, shrinking back and holding out their little hands on the point of crying. Almost the same thing happened now to Sonia.

[Miner]

It is interesting remark about link between Prince Myshkin and Lizaveta and Sonia.
And I like very much the part that you punctuated. The part how Raskolnikov sees Lizaveta and Sonia.
That was the one of those moments when he was allowing noble virtues to reach his heart. If his heart would be overwhelmed with that "Napoleon theory" he would probably despise those "poor gentle eyes". But he liked her, specially because she was meek, and gentle, and with those eyes, oposite of that what he was trying to respect, in what he was trying to believe, and what suppose to be very heavy burden for him. His heart was tortured with pride and vanity.

Gospel:

11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your

souls.

11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

And Christ is in hearts and images of characters like Lizaveta and Sonia more than any other else. And Raskolnikov wish for Sonia.

And Princ Myshkin has pure and naive heart, and meek character like Sonia and Lisaveta, but there is an interesting diferences between them, That difference very much determine their position in society and gives specific dimension to their life, and puts them in different circumstances. That difference is between how much they are desirable to other people.
Myshkin is handsome, physicaly attractive. Lisaveta and Sonia are not physically attractive, (they have some different physical beauty in expression of "poor meek gentle eyes", beauty not of this world, and which is not valued much in this vanity world).
Lot of them seeks for company of Myshkin, and almost nobody wants company of Lizaveta and Sonia, unless they are repent sinners and convicts in extra-ordinarily situation and phase of life. They are rejected from society and quietly pray in some poor room. Myshkin is object of desire, object of jelaosy between women and object of envy of other men, and many men, and that naivety looks good on him and makes him charming, and makes him look selfsatisfied and makes him more desirable to other people. He would be aestheticly desireable even in some high class salons and elite parties.
Sonia and Lizaveta are despised, without that charm, objects of disrecpect, objects of scoff, objects of joke. And they "do not weep, they do not moan", "they give up everything, their eyes are soft and gentle". These two beautiful creatures, Sonia and Lizaveta, "poor gentle things with gently eyes", so bravely carries their hard, tough life and low position in society and are best depicted in that Raskolnikov's monologue.
In this vanity world It is easier to love Myshkin and Aloysha, then to love Sonia and Lisaveta, Makar Dievushkin and Barbara Dobroselova from "Poor Folks", or Akakiy Akakievich from Gogol's Overcoat.
I don't say that Myshkin and Alyosha would be different if they were in lower social position. They are not aware of their charm and it means nothing to them. I am sure they would give up of that honours of society very gladly, and they would bravely outstand every burden. I just say that there is that difference how society looks on them and treats them differently. Sonia, Lizaveta, Makar, Barbara, Akakiy, and many others....mud of society, army of despised, insulted and injured, with Christ's image in their faces. Beautiful bravely army!

Raskonikov, who was described as handsome, take a liking Sonia's physical apperance, as much as her spiritual values and personality, and that speaks very positive about his character.

[bazarov]

Interesting view.
Myshkin was rich and noble male, Sonia was poor whore, Lizaveta was stupid cripple and woman. I think that has effect on society view toward them, but also, in their part of society, they were respected. Why? Because of their true beauty you mentioned.
And yes, Alyosha maybe not, but Myshkin would surely be despised ithat he was poor. Who would stand poor idiot? Probably no one who is in better situation them him.

[Miner]

I agree that everybody look on Myshkin as on poor idiot. But I think that there are some diferences between those poor characters.

He has some singularities which are very popular in that time and also in our time. He is original and interesting. In that time when there was flood of ideologies and philosophies originality was high valued. Like now as well. I think that even atheistic and nihilistic intellectual elite and art elite would find him very original and interesting. And when you add his noble descent who is now poor, that can seems more original. But would any of that elite found interesting and original Sonia, Lizaveta, Makar? Even now in pop
culture Myshkin would be interesting excentric. And hardly that would be Sonia and Lizaveta.
Sonia's and Lizaveta's piety and religionness is quiet, modest, without theatrical affectation and aesthetic.

And want to add that I am aware that Myshkin's and Alyosha's charm and originality was not calculated, and they didn't take advantage of that. I know that they would gladly give up of that singularities.

I just find interesting how people who are so similar and devoted to same things and in the same way, can be perceived so much differently by others.

[Gladys]

He is original and interesting. In that time when there was flood of ideologies and philosophies originality was high valued. Like now as well. I think that even atheistic and nihilistic intellectual elite and art elite would find him very original and interesting. I suspect Prince Myshkin is notorious for the remarkable predicaments he willing creates for himself rather than valued for his original ideas.


Myshkin was rich... He becomes rich early on by an inheritance that makes Aglaya accessible.

[mea505]

What an interesting discussion. There are issues in this discussion that I have never thought about! After reading "The Idiot," which was an excellent novel, I have a better appreciation for the two characters.

[Gladys]

And later, Sonia tells Raskolnikov, "I have another, a copper one that belonged to Lizaveta. I changed with Lizaveta: she gave me her cross and I gave her my little ikon. I will wear Lizaveta's now". I only now recollect that the angelic Prince Myshkin, from 'The Idiot', exchanged crosses with the murderous Roghozin: tin for gold.

[mea505]

Given the attention above, we ought to devote the same sort of commitment to "The Idiot" as we have to "Crime and Punishment." In other words, we should all read "The Idiot" and study it as we have his other novel.

[bazarov]

We read it in September so you can check that thread and post questions.

[mea505]

Oh, OK. I will do that. Thanks. I would hate to merely reproduce what was already done.

P.S. I need help with posting a picture under my name. Although I uploaded one (under "details"), it does not show up (like the one you have and some of the other members have) under the name. What, if anything, am I doing wrong?

[Gladys]

I need help with posting a picture under my name. Just choose the "Insert Image" icon, paste your image hyperlink, and delete the "http://" prefix.

[mea505]

Yes, you are right! I will do that.