"Lot's chaste daughters at incest wild"?

[OedipusReD]

from a Canadian poet, Ronald Everson's Injured Maple
I'm not getting the Lot reference though (biblicial I think but I can't find anything on daughters)
any thoughts?

[Brainstormer]

Lot is a man mentioned in the Bible. His daughters became caught up in all kinds of debotchery, and even conspired to get their father drunk and have an incestuous relationship with him. You can read the whole story in Genesis chapter 13-19.

[OedipusReD]

nice
well...not their..actions..but..
thanks!

[Sitaram]

From my recollection regarding Lot's daughters, there was really no "debaucherry" whatsoever, but merely their misguided desire to do that which is right. Lot and his daughters fled the destruction of Sodom and were dwelling in a wilderness. The daughters were in despair because there was no man to marry and they would be childless. The Jews enumerate 613 "mitzvahs" or commandments in the "Torah" (which is the first five books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.)
There are 248 POSITIVE commands (thou shalt do this or that) and 365 NEGATIVE commands (thou shalt NOT do this or that). But THE VERY FIRST mitzvah, interestingly enough, is BE FRUITFUL and multiply.

People of today, especially the not-so-religious, can hardly understand how someone in ancient times felt at the prospect of being childless.

Anyway, the daughters conspired to get their father drunk so that they might have relations with him for the purpose of getting pregnant. They gave him wine on two consecutive nights. On the first night one daughter slept with him. On the second night, the other daughter slept with him. Rabbinical commentators of the Talmudic tradition put a small dot over the passage which mentions the SECOND night, as if to question the character of Lot (i.e. fool me once on the first night, perhaps, but TWO nights suggests that Lot knew what was going on). Anyway the decendants of Lot's daughters became two nations which were enemies to the Jews.

Abraham and Sarah also made a "poor decision" with regards to the maidservant Hagar, all because Sarah dread the thought of being childless. The product of that inappropriate union, Ishmael, also produced a nation, a race, which was (and is to this day) an enemy.

But notice there is no mention of Lot's daughters drinking themselves, or dancing or singing, or even having a good time. Quite possibly, they did it from a sense of duty (submitted to the act) and had no lust or prurient desire (e.g. "Oh Daddy, your the most!)

I shall look up the Biblical passage regarding Lot and his daughters and repost here.

[simon]

Wasn't Kind Lot also an enemy of Uther Pendragon, who ran off with one of his daughters and had Arthur?

[Snukes]

There's also a mention of Lot's daughters while they were still "chaste." Before Sodom and Gomorrah were tosted, a pair of angels visited Lot. He invited them in, but the men of Sodom were curious and evil, and they called to Lot to send the angels out (not knowing who or what they were) so they could induct them into the "pleasures" of the city. Lot, wanting to spare such a disgrace to the angels, offered to send out his two virgin daughters if the men would just leave the angels alone.

Lot didn't know the guests were angesl either. Offering his daughters was a way to preserve his honor as a host.

In terms of your poem, I find it quite lovely and satisfying the way the words "chaste" and "wild" are used in a sort of opposition. I would agree with Sitarim about the general lack of debauchery in what they did, which also makes the poet's choice of phrasing rather intersting. Perhaps he uses "wild" in reference to extreme? Socially unacceptable? I suppose I could get out the poem and look for a context... :p

[OedipusReD]

the stanza is
My body is injured by years I have no child
I suspect the maple
is somehow sly as Lot's chaste daughters at incest wild
or MacBeth murdering for high-plumed sons

(the format/line spacing whatever doesnt translate exact on here)
actually, i had posted a question about the macbeth reference as well in the shakespeare forum, which has vanished, so any help there would be nice since i've yet to read the play, nor have i the time to do so :S

[Sitaram]

Sorry I can be of more help in understanding "MacBeth murdring for high-plumed sons"

I am guessing that "high-plumed" refers to long feathers in their caps (like a birds plummage) ... perhaps a sign of high office....

I did find the following amongst the many pages on MacBeth which a google.com search reveals.

At quick glance, it does not seem that MacBeth or Lady MacBeth have any children, but I could be very mistaken.

http://www.belperschool.co.uk/Subjects/English/Macbeth%20-%20scene%20summaries.php

Act 1, scene 7

Alone, Macbeth agonizes over whether or not to kill Duncan, stating that he knows the king's murder is a terrible sin. He struggles not so much with the horrifying idea of regicide (killing a king) as with the actual fact and process of murdering a man, * a relative, no less, * who trusts and loves him. He would like the king's murder to be over and done with already. He hates the fact that he has "only / Vaulting ambition" without the motivation or ruthlessness to ensure the attainment of his ambitions. Lady Macbeth enters, and Macbeth tells her that he "will proceed no further in this business." Taunting him for his fears and ambivalence, she tells him he will only be a man when he commits this murder. She states that she herself would go so far as to take her own nursing baby and dash its brains out if she had to in order to attain her goals. She counsels him to "screw [his] courage to the sticking place" and details the way they will murder the king. They will wait until he is asleep, she says, then they will get his bodyguards drunk. Then they will murder Duncan and lay the blame on the two drunken bodyguards. Macbeth, astonished at her cruelty, warns her to "bring forth male children only," since she is too tough and bloodthirsty to bear girls. He resigns to follow through with her plans.

================

The following seems to confirm that MacBeth has no sons.

What we have here is the prospect of FUTURE offspring, which might rule.

The reference to Lot's daughters ALSO pertains to hoped-for FUTURE children.

And your verse begins with the statement something to the effect (paraphrasing) "my body is wounded because I have no children" (I think)
:

http://pinkmonkey.com/booknotes/monkeynotes/pmMacbeth23.asp

MacBeth states that to be king is nothing unless the king is safe. And he does not feel safe with Banquo, for "He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour to act in safety...and under him, my genius is rebuked." He also expresses his jealousy that the witches have proclaimed that Banquo's sons will some day be kings instead of his future offspring. (Macbeth has no sons.) He then laments that "for them (Banquo's sons) the gracious Duncan have I murdered and put rancours in the vessel of my peace and given mine eternal jewel (his soul)...to the common enemy of man (the devil)." By the end of the soliloquy, Macbeth reveals that he must kill both Banquo and his son Fleance.

======================

It might possibly help me to understand all this if I could find the entire text of the poem, but the only reference I can find in google to Ronald Everson is the contents of book of Canadian poetry:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195404505/104-6163419-9917533?v=glance&vi=contents

Injured Maple by Ronald Everson
One-night Expensive Hotel by Ronald Everson
Pauper Woodland by Ronald Everson
Stranded In My Ontario by Ronald Everson