IB Balzac and LCS IB

[coltrane]

I'll be a little more specific in starting this thread. First, for anyone not in my class, this is not a thread on Balzac the French poet, but a thread on the novel Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress by Dai Sijie.

Some points of discussion to begin; pick one that interests you and jump in. Feel free to expand on this discussion or start up with new questions of your own. Do NOT number your answers to these questions in order... BORING!!!

Some novels seem completely universal; they could happen in any time and place. Others are more grounded in a particular time and place, and could only happen then and there. Between these extremes, where would you place Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress?

As a follow up, how does Sijie intertwine the historical elements of the novel with the coming-of-age story of his two protagonists?

Unlike some of the darker stuff you've read, this novel has some funny parts, yet still has a somewhat tragic ending. What do you think about the blend of comedy and tragedy in this novel?

How much do you know about this era in China, often called the Cultural Revolution? How much does one need to know to "get" the novel?

How does this novel compare to other works you have read (not so much a ranking, but how is it similar/different)? How does the narrator compare to other narrators?

Lots of questions on friendship/love. What are the bonds between the narrator and Luo? Does Luo love the Seamstress, and is that mutual? The narrator refers to Four Eyes as a "friend" at one point, but how so? Anyone else see a love triangle here? Friendship and love are subjects; what would you define as the theme of this novel? (We'll distinguish subject from theme frequently).

That's enough for now.

[flgirl073]

I thought Sijie did a wonderful job of intertwining the historical elements with the coming-of-age story. By the end of the novel I felt I had learned so much about what was happening in China at this time, but had also read a wonderful story. The author did not include huge chunks of historical events that could have left the reader bored or confused. Instead, he slipped it in perfectly with the story line. Even though I could not relate to what was occurring in China, Sijie created a story that any reader could associate with. Between Luo and the narrator I am sure every reader can find characteristics of themselves. Also going back to the historical sections of the novel, Sijie put information that was fascinating. I was interested to learn what was band during this time period along with all the unique cultural beliefs and traditions carried out by the Chinese people.
Starting this book I did not know anything about the Cultural Revolution. With the first few pages I was slightly confused about what was occurring, and formed many questions. These questions were quickly cleared up and I was immediately wrapped up in the story. I feel one does not need to know anything about this revolution in order to “get” the novel. The author does a wonderful job keeping the reader updated with any important new information.

[flgirl073]

There is much in this novel concerning the topic of love and friendship. I do believe that Luo loved the Little Chinese Seamstress, but I am not sure if this feeling was returned. She does discuss that she wanted to please Luo and do what she could for him (get the keys in the water), but does this mean she loves him? By the end of the book I question if she was just using him. Was she unhappy with the life she was leading and saw Luo as an escape? At one point in the novel Luo does mention he would use the books to change her from the mountain girl she was, but he seemed to have no idea she would change quite so drastically. Luo constantly expressed his feelings for her, and would go to great lengths to see her. He even faced one of his biggest fears (heights) to be with her. The Little Chinese Seamstress did show some emotion for Luo, but when he leaves the mountain and the narrator takes his place as story teller, she does not seem too upset. The narrator explains she seems to be more intrigued by his stories and presence, but this could be biased because he is telling the story. The narrator begins falling for the Little Chinese Seamstress himself, and a love triangle is formed. To me she seems to be stringing both of them along, trying to get everything she can out of it. The narrator assists her a great deal around the house and goes through much trouble helping her get to the doctor for an abortion. At the beginning of the novel I thought the Little Chinese Seamstress was a good character that was kind and sweet, but by the end I saw her as greedy, seeking to use others for personal gain. These are just some of my thoughts, what do you guys think?

[coltrane]

flgirl073 wins the 'first to post' award again.

technical tip: if your are replying to a specific comment from another forum user, click on the box to "quote message in reply"; that way their comment and your response will be adjacent. If your comment is more general, no need to do this step.

[helgacakes]

Well, we already know some background information. For example, we can findout when Mao was in office and that the Chinese were going through some kind of revolution. So I would say this book couldn't take place in any time and place. It has to be after the 19th century and it is apparently in China.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b166/Just_A_SuperGirl/wikimao.jpg
here's a wikipedia image of Mao... I think that's the right Mao. I just thought that was a funny picture....HAHA.

I think the historical events were crucial to set the background of the novel. The two boys were banned to read anything except for some specific books that were allowed and the novel tells a lot about how the two boys deal with their situation and what it was like for those who were "re-educated" at that point. Although the readers do not know too much about the actual historical knowledge, from what we read, we can still understand the background enough to follow along. I didn't know anything about the "Cultural Revolution" in China of this era but after a few pages, I could assume that they were going through something like it.

I liked the way this book was written. It was not too serious and depressing although the situation of the main characters was pretty depressing. I thought the ending was pretty ironic. I wouldn’t call this story a tragedy but the ending was definitely not a happy one.

[helgacakes]

First, when I read the first chapter of the book, I thought about Things Fall Apart and The Poisonwood Bible. The uncivilized people who didn't know what a violin was reminded me of the Natives and Congo people. I think Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress had similar aspects with the Dystopian novels that we read last year. The two protagonists are away from their family and they are banned from getting any further education except for this "re-education." I guess Communist countries all contain some Dystopian aspects like censorship. Also, Kite Runner was about friendship also, so they have some similarities. For the narrative view, I thought it was kind of interesting that it is Luo's friend who is telling the story of Luo and his romance. We see little narrative shifts in the end but mostly, it's Luo's friend (Ma?) who tells the story. Big Fish is similar to that. William tells about his father, Edward the whole novel. Also, the author of Kite Runner said that he was originally going to write the novel from Hassan's point of view and it would have been really different to read about Hassan's emotions and how he saw things instead of Amir's. I think if Balzac was written in Luo's point of view, it would have been really different too.

We know that Luo and the narrator have been friends since they were little and they really care about each other. They know each other’s family problems and they are in a very similar situation. The narrator gives up the Little Seamstress and doesn’t even try to win her over Luo. He lets Luo have her and there’s the love triangle. Two boys like the same girl. However, their friendship stays firm and the narrator calls Luo not just a friend but his “commander.” I think they have a brotherly friendship going on since they have been friends for so long and they are going through the same thing together. Four Eyes is a “friend” at some point to Luo and the narrator because he is going through the re-education just like them and they are in the same situation. I think I could argue both sides on whether Luo really loves the Little Seamstress or not. He does want to educate her and do many things as possible for her. He eventually succeeds at transforming her into an educated city girl. He may love the new Little Seamstress and may be satisfied with who she has become but we can also ask the question: is that really love? He may “love” who she has become but not her. I think the narrator is closer to “loving” her. He describes his first impression of her in a loving way. He liked the innocent mountain girl.

[kilted exile]

Not a member of your class (obviously), completely unfamiliar with the book in question, but thought I'd do some general prodding:p.


Well, we already know some background information. For example, we can findout when Mao was in office and that the Chinese were going through some kind of revolution. So I would say this book couldn't take place in any time and place. It has to be after the 19th century and it is apparently in China.

{SNIP/}

I think the historical events were crucial to set the background of the novel. The two boys were banned to read anything except for some specific books that were allowed and the novel tells a lot about how the two boys deal with their situation and what it was like for those who were "re-educated" at that point. Although the readers do not know too much about the actual historical knowledge, from what we read, we can still understand the background enough to follow along. I didn't know anything about the "Cultural Revolution" in China of this era but after a few pages, I could assume that they were going through something like it.


Although the fine details mean the book must take place in a certain place and time are the experiences of the characters & themes not universal to many different times & countries throughout history?

You say yourself that knowledge of the exact history is unimportant to understanding the points the author is trying to make. Surely if this is the case we can fit the story in any comparable society where there is any degree of governmental censorship or propaganda. thinking off the top of my head at least 2 other periods in the 20th century come to mind: Nazi Germany & Communist Russia especially the era from Stalin until Gorbachev took power.

Ok, prodding over......

[coltrane]

Whoa, we have company! Cool...

I'm still thinking on the discussion from class today, primarily over the question of "did he (the author) mean to do that?" The structure of those two or three pages we focused on had never struck me before, but the way it's set up with the direct references to authorial intent, then he goes and demonstrates how a writer can sneak up on you with the parallel reactions the characters have to reading Balzac... that can't be an accident, can it?

I also thought about (later) how their reactions again characterize them, as we see this thread throughout the novel. The narrator, son of a pulmonary surgeon, artistic introvert, turns his reaction to Balzac's story inward. After all, where will those words etched inside his jacket rest when he puts it/them on? And Luo, sociable son of a dentist, takes his reaction to the nearest woo-able woman, and his response to the work turns outward.

I'm interested to hear where you will go with the overtly Genesis allusions throughout part 3; the secluded garden, the young man and woman (she wearing a very Eve-like loincloth, no less), the snake. Can a distinctly Chinese story rely so heavily on the traditions of the West? Or, are we reading this through our pre-conditioned glasses? Are snakes just bad everywhere, or is a snake sometimes just a snake?

Anyway, keep posting, and Kilted Exile, pick up a copy of the novel. It's a quick read.

[Kappy22]

OK this will be a little random in this discussion, but I feel like there should be symbolism in the three drops of blood in the headman's eye. Any thoughts or am I just crazy?

[AGS512]

Coltrane a snake is never just a snake...a hat string maybe...:lol:

I did some research on what snakes symbolize in the Chinese culture here's what I found (pretty neat!):

-The Chinese culture has different animals for different years, each having their own sort of personality traits (sort of like a horoscope)

-The years of the Snake: 1917, 1929, 1941, 1953, 1965, 1977, 1989, 2001

- The Personality Traits of the Snake:
1. Have innate wisdom and intuition
2. Deep Thinkers, would be a sucessful philosopher or best-friend
3. Fast Learners
4. Like the best things in life
5. Quiet and Mysterious
6. Often are vain and selfish
7. Calm on the outside, passionate on the inside
8. Very determined, and hate to fail
9. Person who loves books
10. Jealous and possessive and a sense of humor in his love affairs

Is it just me or does anyone see some major connections to Luo, LCS, and the Narrator's personalities to the snakes? Anyone have any other thoughts about how the whole snake thing might be more than just another biblical reference?

[coltrane]

OK this will be a little random in this discussion, but I feel like there should be symbolism in the three drops of blood in the headman's eye. Any thoughts or am I just crazy?

It does seem that the narrator mentions this too often for it to be just a throw away description, but I too am puzzled. Eyes are all over this novel, and of course eyes are the "windows to the soul" at least in Platonic thought. Three is a significant number symbolically, too. And blood makes a few significant appearances in the novel. OK, that's all the obvious stuff, but I still have no idea what it really means. Here's a leap, and only a leap: maybe the red spots color the way the headman views the world. He does seem the closest thing to a true communist in the novel, at least that we meet in person. That's just a theory, and not a particularly thought out one, I admit.

[Katia]

When I first read the scene at the pond, I didn't immediately think biblical reference. I was tempted at first, because it is so much a part of our Western culture, but then I thought of the book I was reading. I felt that a distinctly Genesis reading can't apply to the scene. To some extent, Sijie could have been influenced by Western thought as he did go to France, and the book was originally written in French not Chinese, but somehow I don't believe the underlying message is Western.

Sijie was Eastern. He was born in that culture, and the snake has often been a very prominent animal for that culture. For example, I found in a book I own on Chinese culture, that the snake has been featured in one of their love stories called the Legend of the White Snake. It tells the tale of female white snake that transforms into a human, marries an ordinary man, has great beauty, and lives a prosperous life helping others. I haven't actually read the tale, but I also found at the China Daily website:
n both Chinese and Western cultures snakes are associated with the bravery of men and beauty of women.

The stories in ancient times often described how a hero managed to fight against a monstrous snake: the Westerners have the story of Hercules who killed Hydra and the Chinese have that of Hou Yi who killed a big poisonous snake in the lake.

Both Asian and the Westerners liken a slim waist to a snake, one important factor for an attractive woman. In the Chinese language, there is even a word "Mei Nu She," or beauty snake, referring to a beautiful, but an evil and wily woman.

Isn't that odd? One of the best remembered quotes in the novel is by the Little Chinese Seamstress who says that, "a woman's beauty is a treasure beyond price" (Sijie 184). If then we take the definition offered by the Chinese Daily website and apply it, then by being bitten by the snake the Little Chinese Seamstress is transformed. She represents the snake in female form. Beautiful, but wily. This could be true although how it relates to Balzac is questionable. The only connection I have ever been able to find between her statement and Balzac is this: Balzac often writes books about women. Those are his main characters and oddly enough the woman who is good, who is kind and loveable, and often very beautiful triumphs over the others in the end. His books are real, his characters are real, but the message in many of the books is that after all the insurmountable odds, the kind beautiful woman can help the others out of those dark times. Or something of that nature. I have obviously not read all of Balzac so anyone feel free to correct me on this.

My general impression about the book was also that Luo and the Little Chinese Seamstress didn't love each other. I think Luo was in love with the idea of her. He was at an age where he would very likely have found a city girl had he been in the city. The Little Seamstress is the prettiest girl in that area, and while not educated, she shows interest both in him and the idea of education. He was enamored with the idea of changing her into something he could love. On the other hand the Little Seamstress saw him as a way to gain knowledge. When she first meets them she tells them that the dog recognized what sort of people they are. They're from the city, and she has taken a liking to them because she wants to know about the city. This already sets up, I think, what happens at the end of the novel. She leaves, because that had always been her goal. Sure she wanted to please Luo, but she wasn't romantically interested in him.

[ApexiMRS]

The cultural revolution occurred between 1966 and 1976. The Korean War began on 25 June 1950 and the armistice that brought the war to a brief halt was signed on 27 July 1953. Could the Korean War have covered up this revolution that occurred in china? Because the truth is that I've never heard about it. Korea is right there next to China. I bet a lot of Chinese "intellectuals" escaped to Korea. If not, I bet they at least tried. I just want to point out that this Cultural revolution seems scary to me. The fact that it happened only 40 years ago. 1984 seem even more possible to me now.

Either way, this novel could have taken place anywhere. I don't feel like it could only take place on Phoenix Mountain. To me, this is a simple but emotional story about two friends who do what they can to survive and adapt to their new surroundings. The bottom line is, no matter what race the two young humans are, that the two humans will either die or achieve their objective to live at whatever the cost. However, I do believe that the story needed to take place at this time period. why? because if someone took me away and wanted to re-educate me. well... I'm just saying. Just my Breakdance Crew is 12 deep. LOL jk. I would communicate with a person outside the "re-education" domain and arrange an escape plan via internet, phone, mail, word-of-mouth.

Anyone else feel the same way? :)

Blitz