Posting Appropriate Replies to Threads

[AuntShecky]

I've been visiting the Literature Network for a little over a year, but lately a few aspects are beginning to bother me a little bit. The following it will sound as if I am venting, but I am offering it as a way to open up some discussion on appropriate ways to reply to threads on the LitNet.

I'm concerned about the quality of some of the posted replies to threads. I'm especially concerned about some of the things I myself have written, but also of my fellow lit-netters.

First I want to make clear that the last thing I would ever want to do is hurt or embarrass a fellow-LitNetter. (Heaven knows I've humiliated myself on the Internet more times than I care to count!) But sometimes when I read some threads and replies on the LitNet, it's too much of a temptation for me NOT to reply.

For instance, when there is a factual error which no one else seems to have picked up, I might point out the error to the original poster. It's not that I want to give the impression that I am a "know-it-all" (I'm not even a "Know-some-of-it!) But the Internet is notorious for disseminating false, misleading, or erroneous information.) So if I correct a posted fact (in the public forums rather than a private message), it's only an attempt to keep the misinformation from spreading further.

One thing I won't do (or try not to do) is to post a reply telling the original poster that he or she has violated one of the LitNet posting rules. On the other hand, in the past couple of months I have noticed that some relatively-new LitNetters are posting their personal poems in separate threads during the same 24 hour period. I thought the rule was that a LitNetter is allowed to post only one new thread of personal poetry per day? Maybe I'm wrong. But wrong or right it's not "my place" to point this out.

Finally, this last comment concerns something that bothers me the most: replies that go overboard in praise for original postings in "Personal Poetry" and "Short Story Sharing." (I don't mean the original works themselves -- I mean the "replies.") It is very true that tastes among readers vary greatly; however, it doesn't take a consensus to realize that some early efforts of beginning writers can't be compared to established works of literature.

I'm not saying that we should slash such works to ribbons, although the Administrators wisely warn posters that when they post their works on a public web site, they are vulnerable to negative comments. What I am saying is that we should think twice about treating an amateurish effort as the Greatest Gift to Western civilization. Why, oh why, do poorly-executed pieces of broken-up prose full of clichés and murky abstractions generate comments such as "That's awesome, Dude!" ?

I am saying this NOT to criticize but to ask: When we praise an inexperienced writer for piece that requires a complete overhaul, we are not doing the original poster any favors! Indeed, we may be doing him or her a cruel disservice, for he or she may thus form an unrealistic opinion of his own talents, setting him up for
future disillusion and disappointment.

This is NOT the same as discouraging young folks who seem to have a beginning interest in writing. But the way to encourage these kids is to show them that mediocrity is not a sign of genius, but that reading large quantites of a variety of previously published works, as well as studying the craft writing can help them improve the level of their
work.

Is your ol' Auntie wrong in thinking this way? Your comments?

[Jozanny]

I'm not saying that we should slash such works to ribbons, although the Administrators wisely warn posters that when they post their works on a public web site, they are vulnerable to negative comments. What I am saying is that we should think twice about treating an amateurish effort as the Greatest Gift to Western civilization. Why, oh why, do poorly-executed pieces of broken-up prose full of clichés and murky abstractions generate comments such as "That's awesome, Dude!" ?

I am saying this NOT to criticize but to ask: When we praise an inexperienced writer for piece that requires a complete overhaul, we are not doing the original poster any favors! Indeed, we may be doing him or her a cruel disservice, for he or she may thus form an unrealistic opinion of his own talents, setting him up for
future disillusion and disappointment.

This is NOT the same as discouraging young folks who seem to have a beginning interest in writing. But the way to encourage these kids is to show them that mediocrity is not a sign of genius, but that reading large quantites of a variety of previously published works, as well as studying the craft writing can help them improve the level of their
work.

Is your ol' Auntie wrong in thinking this way? Your comments?

Aunt: In my experience, it is best to stay out of online writing forums, and this is no reflection on LN. I have learned, in eleven years online, that flame wars often start when a more experienced author roves a jaunticed eye over draft material, and either the author gets attacked, or told to leave because the online community is comfortable with itself as it is, and that is the key--these communities tend to invite users who want to hang out and get attention.

My answer is I publish, pure and simple, and I have been submitting work for publication since I was 9, so no one needs to tell me about inexperience, or not submitting work due to that inexperience. You get over your fear and submit. The end. Let your editors teach you, or find a teacher to work with you, write, revise, maybe share with colleagues in appropriate circumstances.

Posting online? Critique? Waste of time. Anyone can submit to hundreds of literary journals, print, and ahem, electronic, and anyone can get published. Showing drafts in a faceless environment is a way of looking for approval; commentators know this, and usually give approval, for a variety of reasons, and not simply because the board or community is moderated or not.

I know my opinion probably doesn't ease your frustration, but that's my take.

[jgweed]

I certainly agree with the sentiments expressed by Aunt, and want to add, as a relatively new forum member, that I have been surprised also at the quality of many of the posts; improper grammar, sentence fragments, and sloppy spelling are far from rare. It seems to be that if one wants to publish literature for others to read, some simple copy-reading is advisable and shows a pride of authorship.
Regards,
John

[Jozanny]

I certainly agree with the sentiments expressed by Aunt, and want to add, as a relatively new forum member, that I have been surprised also at the quality of many of the posts; improper grammar, sentence fragments, and sloppy spelling are far from rare. It seems to be that if one wants to publish literature for others to read, some simple copy-reading is advisable and shows a pride of authorship.
Regards,
John

I don't know what it is with the really bad spelling and errors in grammar that posting boards invite. I am an on-again off-again poster in an English usage newsgroup, and the posters there can tell you Joanne doesn't readily remember her gerunds from her verbals, but some of the posts I've seen here are barely understandable at times, although I still decline to assist my future competitors:D.

Another thing I've learned though, going back to Aunt's post, is not to get too invested in any online community. It creates problems. So sometimes it is best not to respond, and since we are at keyboards, we don't have to. I know this isn't easy, and sure, my own ego slips me up now and again, even here, especially during certain times of the month. I can get emotional, feel sorry for myself, get exasperated, want to be right, and all that--but I don't own the place, and from what I can gather, the network is monetized around teachers and students--and that said network is tolerant of an intelligent loon like myself is appreciated.

I ended my relationship with my ex-fiance for good before my posts jumped to 283 since I first stopped by in 07. The engagement broke off in 05 but I hung onto maintaining a relationship until I realized I was more miserable holding onto it than being alone, except all the sudden I was alone, and the Internet is, sadly, one of my few social extensions.

So while I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop in my being on the bottom rung, so to speak--and I'm not writing--here I am, talking literature. I never lose sight of the fact, though, that this is not my second home, and any friendships made would cease if my account was closed.

I've been through all this before.

But, for what it's worth, I really like the discussions I have here on LN, and that is worth any other possible detractions. No online community is, or can be, perfect.

[SleepyWitch]

I don't know what it is with the really bad spelling and errors in grammar that posting boards invite. I am an on-again off-again poster in an English usage newsgroup, and the posters there can tell you Joanne doesn't readily remember her gerunds from her verbals, but some of the posts I've seen here are barely understandable at times, although I still decline to assist my future competitors:D.

maybe that's because a significant portion of LitNet members are not native speakers of English? or are you referring to the "gee dude this sh!t kicks ***. trv leet" variety of posts?

[Jozanny]

maybe that's because a significant portion of LitNet members are not native speakers of English? or are you referring to the "gee dude this sh!t kicks ***. trv leet" variety of posts?

I try to make allowances for non-native speakers, and am usually pretty adept at sorting those from native young speakers, who, for lack of anything better to call it, don't care if the i's are dotted.

[DickZ]

I agree with most of your thoughts, Auntie.

For example, your ideas on factual errors – that’s very important. One of our great young writers (who hasn’t posted in a long time) has a story with U.S. Army characters, and he accidentally placed Fort Sam Houston in the city of Houston, Texas, while it’s actually in San Antonio. I pointed out that mistakes like that detract from one’s credibility. With the internet, it should be relatively easy to avoid mistakes like that, but you still have to be careful to check a few independent sources to make sure you’re not picking up the erroneous infomation that often creeps into the internet. He understood what I was saying.

I agree that we should leave the rules enforcement to the moderators, although I have to plead guilty to admonishing a new poster that he shouldn’t put each of the six parts of his story into separate threads. That led to an angry exchange that would have been avoided if I had kept my mouth shut.

As to your thoughts on over-praising young writers who don’t really ‘deserve’ such high exaltation, I think there’s room for disagreement and discussion here. At the risk of over-simplification, let’s put these young writers into just two categories:


those who have potential, but still lack the skills that come only with experience

those who display sloppy spelling and total disregard for the rules of grammar, and hence really have no potential

Obviously, placing a given writer into category 1 isn’t always as straightforward as I make it sound.
I have probably over-praised a few writers in category 1, because I can see that they are trying, and that they have respect for the rules of language such as spelling and grammar. Most of their ‘sins’ are awkwardly-worded expressions that stem from their lack of experience. I think that pointing out all of those awkwardly-phrased portions is counterproductive, because there are usually lots of them. Nobody wants to get battered with 52 individual criticisms. At the same time, I always try to make a blanket statement that their wording will become less awkward as they continue to read, write, and accumulate experience.

For those in category 2, I used to say that no serious reader is going to spend time on a piece that’s riddled with spelling errors and obvious disregard of grammar. I have more recently decided it’s not even worth pointing that out, so I don’t even comment on them anymore.

Of course, I have to admit that I lack official credentials to make assessments like this, but that's true of all of us. If any of us were pulling in $200,000 per year with our writing, we wouldn't be in this forum.

[Jozanny]

Of course, I have to admit that I lack official credentials to make assessments like this, but that's true of all of us. If any of us were pulling in $200,000 per year with our writing, we wouldn't be in this forum.

I'm off-point, but I am not sure about this last Dick. I make about 3,000 a year--not livable, certainly, but not bad either, and I'm not here for my writing. I am here, first, because it is so hard to find non-academic literary discussion groups offline. God knows I'd love to have a social group and appointments to keep to talk about books.

Second reason I'm here is to keep myself exploding from my problems with disability services, and when I'm upset about these things, it is hard to work and pitch seductively to editors--and, when I was active with Speakeasy, they did not have superstars certainly, but recognized writers posted there, including Sherman Alexie.

I know it may sound harsh, but if a young promising student wants to succeed as a writer, they will not post drafts online, anywhere, any place, and I am talking upper track highschool and collegiate level. They work, keep their grade point average up, and if they need instructors, research that, find one, and work with them.

Posting can be poison. It invites conformity and group think, even fear of crossing lines and violating boundaries. Now, an editor might not publish me if I push against certain conventions, but in my experience, raising my voice gains notice too.

[AuntShecky]

All of the replies to the original post are well-considered and nicely expressed. (I thought I was going to be vilified for this opinion!)

One more thing, if I may: the American news magazine Sixty Minutes did a story a few months ago about how employers have had problems with newly-hired young workers. These twenty-somethings need more "TLC" on the job than their more mature co-workers: they require constant reassurance and praise, resulting in a waste of resources and time for managers of those companies. This phenomenon can be attributed to the philosophy of the U.S. public educational system in which teachers are trained to boost the "self-esteem" for their students. Teachers were so slavishly devoted to this technique that students were receiving certificates and praise for merely showing up and breathing (with or without one's mouth open.) This led to the an elevation of a student's self-worth and unrealistic expectations of entitlement. Once released into the Real World, these students were in for -- to use the cliché -- "a rude awakening." The more intelligent ones quickly catch on to the fact that they had been given a raw deal, that all this praise was phonier than a politician's publicity shot. The effect then would be a decrease -- rather than an increase -- in the young person's self-esteem.

The point is that this leveling of acceptance, when the merely competent or less-than-competent becomes rewarded, true merit no longer means anything. For academic achievements, for success in the workplace, and yes, even posted creative works on-line, praise should be
earned.

[Taliesin]

So I am not allowed to say any more that i.e "the show created a sandal?"
That would be a total fresco!
I feel a bit let town.

[Jozanny]

All of the replies to the original post are well-considered and nicely expressed. (I thought I was going to be vilified for this opinion!)

One more thing, if I may: the American news magazine Sixty Minutes did a story a few months ago about how employers have had problems with newly-hired young workers. These twenty-somethings need more "TLC" on the job than their more mature co-workers: they require constant reassurance and praise, resulting in a waste of resources and time for managers of those companies. This phenomenon can be attributed to the philosophy of the U.S. public educational system in which teachers are trained to boost the "self-esteem" for their students. Teachers were so slavishly devoted to this technique that students were receiving certificates and praise for merely showing up and breathing (with or without one's mouth open.) This led to the an elevation of a student's self-worth and unrealistic expectations of entitlement. Once released into the Real World, these students were in for -- to use the cliché -- "a rude awakening." The more intelligent ones quickly catch on to the fact that they had been given a raw deal, that all this praise was phonier than a politician's publicity shot. The effect then would be a decrease -- rather than an increase -- in the young person's self-esteem.

Interesting. The one thing that frightens me the most about the U.S. staying on the top of its game is the crisis in today's educational system. I was not the most responsible university student, but man, from what I read in the paper and gather from sites like these is, we have real problems. I had no *web* to turn to to use as a cheating device, or pick people's brains. Some papers I worked very hard on and some I fudged, but I researched them all. I did the work, and when I did cut corners I simply suffered the consequence of that.

Now the poor instructor needs software to scan for plagiarism--although I'll admit--maybe I shouldn't, that I tutored city college students and helped them strengthen their topics and grammar. This was in the late 80's before my jobs came and I was a green horn--but they really don't need me anymore. Perhaps it is a problem with American notions of egalitarian opportunity which in actuality doesn't exist. I don't know, because, on the other side of that coin, when you have supervisors proclaiming "not everyone is college material" that smacks of class privilege, and I think of how few opportunitys quads like me had to break down barriers.


The point is that this leveling of acceptance, when the merely competent or less-than-competent becomes rewarded, true merit no longer means anything. For academic achievements, for success in the workplace, and yes, even posted creative works on-line, praise should be
earned.

Not is colleges of arts and sciences, no, you are more than correct.

May I ask what brought your critique on? I am not really involved with the writing forums, and I'm curious. Something you posted was reacted to? Or?

[DickZ]

...One more thing, if I may: the American news magazine Sixty Minutes did a story a few months ago about how employers have had problems with newly-hired young workers. These twenty-somethings need more "TLC" on the job than their more mature co-workers: they require constant reassurance and praise, resulting in a waste of resources and time for managers of those companies...
I can sure vouch for what you describe in the workplace, Auntie. I have confidence that the smarter portion of the young worker corps will figure this out pretty soon, or have already figured it out. I'm sure lots of them knew all along that it is baloney to try increasing self esteem for those who do nothing to deserve it.

Yes, the ones who think they should have esteem for no other reason than their ability to send text messages or to talk on a cellphone, don't do all that well, as far as I can see. Young people with enough brains to figure this out will have no trouble passing the multitudes as if those multitudes are standing still, or even going backwards, because that’s exactly what the multitudes are doing.

[DickZ]

Interesting. The one thing that frightens me the most about the U.S. staying on the top of its game is the crisis in today's educational system. I was not the most responsible university student, but man, from what I read in the paper and gather from sites like these is, we have real problems. I had no *web* to turn to to use as a cheating device, or pick people's brains. Some papers I worked very hard on and some I fudged, but I researched them all. I did the work, and when I did cut corners I simply suffered the consequence of that.

Now the poor instructor needs software to scan for plagiarism--although I'll admit--maybe I shouldn't, that I tutored city college students...
Anybody who thinks they can pull the wool over an employer's eyes the way they pulled it over a professor's eyes, is sadly mistaken. When you're getting paid to produce something, and you can't produce that something, it becomes obvious in a big hurry.