Gone With the Wind

[WentWiththeWind]

In short, this 1031 paged book is great. The long responce is that it is filled with points of view, but mostly Scarlet O'Hara's because she's the one that matters most. When reading this book the first time, I thought Ashley was noble, proud, and strong; I realized how wrong I was when I saw the movie and read the book again. Ashley is a weak man that couldn't handle Scarlet if his life depended on it. At first I also though Melly was stupid and weak, the second time and when I had a discussion with my mother, I realize that she probably knew more about what Scarlet was up to than she let on. Did I mention that Melly is Ashley's cousin? Yes, that is a bit odd isn't it? And of course there is the dashing Rhett Butler who is head over heels for Scarlet. But let's not forget that he's twenty years older than her... In the end Rhett walks out of Scarlet's life because she's selfish and rude, but also extremely hard-headed. Being hard-headed isn't neccesarily a bad thing because that means you know right from wrong and can get your priorities in order. I think she used that quality to get ahead in life to be sure. Anyway, she thinks she'll get him back, but I think that would take alot of work on both their parts because a marriage is a joint effort.
The minor characters are also an important part of the story because that is how Scarlet comes across her first two husbands; Frank and Charles. We also get to know her beaux pretty well, such as Stuart and Brent Tarelton. It turns out that when they die at war all thier mother cares about is that fact that she's out of horses. And we can't forget Scarlet's sisters; Suellen and the other ones I can't recall right now. Suellen is worse than Scarlet because at least Scarlet knew to show respect for her father when he was going senile and Suellen complained when she found out that she had to help do farm work. She's a little priss for sure. That leads us to Gerald O'Hara, a spitfire through and through. He was loud, but small and had a soft heart and deeply loved his wife and his land.
In summary, this book is about relationships, love of country, and about loyalties. We can't forget that this story takes place before, after, and during the Civil War. A good book if you've got the time to read it and if you can get past that wild Scarlet O'Hara.

[downing]

Perhaps the first of my all time favourites! 10/10

[karo]

The film ends with a line by Scarlett. Rhett has just walked out on her and, after a crying fit, she concludes: "Oh well, tomorrow is another day"! What! Does the book end the same? After all that's gone before I felt stunned that this should be the grand conclusion! I started reading (but never finished) the book the years ago, and it failed to captivate me then. Having endured the movie I couldn't feel less inclined to pick up the novel once more.

[parap]

I bit through the movie for a class and was glad I never had to read the book..

[blazeofglory]

I have read this book a couple of years ago and it really moved me and the places mentioned in the novel resembled the one I grew in, my small village. And what is more things or cultures are intrinsically not different notwithstanding the fact that on the surface they are.

[AuntShecky]

When I read this in 8th grade, my impressions were exactly what one might expect from a pre-teenager. But now at an extremely advanced age, I'm beginning to think that both the novel -- and especially the so-called "iconic" 1939 movie -- have been over-rated. It's a soap opera in
an historical setting, that's all.

[blazeofglory]

I am going to read this book soon and what tempted me to read this book though I have already read it two times is because this book has so many things bearing resemblances to the village I grew up and what interests me more in this book in point of fact that despite the fact that different geographies hold us and we speak different languages and brought up different socioeconomic setups and cultural backgrounds deep down all of us live with the same values and we all are humans before anything else. Our identities as Asians, Americans, Africans, whites, blacks are skin deep.

[hamdansiddiqui]

It was a fabulous book. Margaret Mitchell wrote just one novel during her entire life and it became an instant best seller. It was a quality novel.

The central character was of Scarllet O'Hara. After facing the difficulties of losing her mother and hunger, Scarllet wanted to do only one thing- make enough money to tell the world to go to hell.
She may have taken some sordid ways to achieve her aim-such as marrying her sister's beaux etc. But all in all she had a greater sense of responsibility than Suellen or Carreen.
Perhaps the worst character was of Suellen. She had no sense of responsibility. And I can't quite figure out why Carreen was so hooked up on the Tarleton boy.

Understandbly Scarllet's high-headedness came from facing the fears of hunger, insecurity etc. She made a strong decision that she never wanted to be hungry again and she was prepared to go to any length to achieve her ambition.

She made mistakes as well. She never really recognized Rhett love for her. She had this illusion of Ashley dashing gentleman, however in the end she did discover what a coward Ahsley was! But above all she failed to recognize the graceful,sophisticated and mature personality possessed by Melanie Wilkes because she always judged her subjectively.

In my opinion this novel gives the reader a lesson to take life as a roller coaster ride and be prepared to face courageously anything that life throws at you. Just like after losing Rhett, Scarllet aimed to earn back his love and devotion and she thought that after all "Tomorrow is just another day!".

[amalia1985]

I've never been a huge fan of "Gone With the Wind", but I couldn't help admire Scarlett's strength, and Rhett's dignity. Also, I appreciate the immediacy of Mitchell's writing, and her ability to depict the Civil War era in a very vivid manner.

[isidro]

Read it twice as an adolescent. Great read!

[blazeofglory]

Read it twice as an adolescent. Great read!


Yes I did and found it amazing

[Dinkleberry2010]

Gone With The Wind is America's number one epic novel, just as Tolstoy's War And Peace is Russia's number one epic novel. Some might argue that Moby Dick or Huckleberry Finn are more epical than Gone With The Wind. But I don't think they are. I think Gone With The Wind is at the top.

[Motherof8]

I first read it when I was 12 and I consider it one of the great American novels.

[cafolini]

When I read this in 8th grade, my impressions were exactly what one might expect from a pre-teenager. But now at an extremely advanced age, I'm beginning to think that both the novel -- and especially the so-called "iconic" 1939 movie -- have been over-rated. It's a soap opera in
an historical setting, that's all.

I'd probably agree.

[wordeater]

People seem to miss the essential point of the novel. The exceptional thing is that it shows a war through the eyes of the losers, the South. It gives insight in the Civil War, the abolition and the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. I would call it one of the greatest American novels.

Calling it a soap is ridiculous. It's better to compare it to Anna Karenina. Scarlett is an antiheroin who isn't interested in the war, but only in the unreachable Ashley. Rhett is a smart opportunist who gets rich during the war and sees through Scarlett.

[Buh4Bee]

I love this book too and read it when I was 12. I think that it has some significance, but it really is a soap opera. It's foolish it even suggest comparing it to Tolstoy.

[dekadrachma]

This was much ado about nothing. A backdrop for a one sided jealousy between two women. Scarlett didn't care if a Yankee woman had Ashley. Scarlett was inexperiened only. She was an absolutely perfect character though who could have her own salon if she wanted that.

[bounty]

found one danik! be back later sometime to make a legitimate post...

[Danik 2016]

Fine!

[bounty]

In short, this 1031 paged book is great. The long responce is that it is filled with points of view, but mostly Scarlet O'Hara's because she's the one that matters most. When reading this book the first time, I thought Ashley was noble, proud, and strong; I realized how wrong I was when I saw the movie and read the book again. Ashley is a weak man that couldn't handle Scarlet if his life depended on it. At first I also though Melly was stupid and weak, the second time and when I had a discussion with my mother, I realize that she probably knew more about what Scarlet was up to than she let on. Did I mention that Melly is Ashley's cousin? Yes, that is a bit odd isn't it? And of course there is the dashing Rhett Butler who is head over heels for Scarlet. But let's not forget that he's twenty years older than her... In the end Rhett walks out of Scarlet's life because she's selfish and rude, but also extremely hard-headed. Being hard-headed isn't neccesarily a bad thing because that means you know right from wrong and can get your priorities in order. I think she used that quality to get ahead in life to be sure. Anyway, she thinks she'll get him back, but I think that would take alot of work on both their parts because a marriage is a joint effort.
The minor characters are also an important part of the story because that is how Scarlet comes across her first two husbands; Frank and Charles. We also get to know her beaux pretty well, such as Stuart and Brent Tarelton. It turns out that when they die at war all thier mother cares about is that fact that she's out of horses. And we can't forget Scarlet's sisters; Suellen and the other ones I can't recall right now. Suellen is worse than Scarlet because at least Scarlet knew to show respect for her father when he was going senile and Suellen complained when she found out that she had to help do farm work. She's a little priss for sure. That leads us to Gerald O'Hara, a spitfire through and through. He was loud, but small and had a soft heart and deeply loved his wife and his land.
In summary, this book is about relationships, love of country, and about loyalties. We can't forget that this story takes place before, after, and during the Civil War. A good book if you've got the time to read it and if you can get past that wild Scarlet O'Hara.

im presently reading the book, just finished chapter 25, 232 pages in. thought I would take a lot of the posts just prior to this and use them as a basis from which to comment, at least on some of the points.

my book is only 832 pages, not 1031, it doesn't have the word "abridged" anywhere in it, so im wondering about the difference.

I don't see Ashley as a "weak man." I believe a weak man would have succumbed not only to scarlett's charms, but all the more so to her direct assault. she essentially threw herself at him twice. in the first instance he rebuffed her by saying he knew that she'd eventually end up hating him because he really wasn't the man she needed. in the second instance it was likely out of fidelity to his wife.

melanie (melly) is an admirable character. she may be physically weak, but along with ellen (scarlett's mother) she's one of the most thoughtful, moral and steadfast character to appear so far.

I would not say that "Rhett is head over heels for Scarlett." maybe he becomes so later, but so far, he comes and goes as he pleases, and while he must certainly be attracted to her, he also treats her with a cool distance, a little condescension, and hasn't made any sort of real play for her love.

haven't met frank yet.

i'll probably say this later in contrast to some other books that are mentioned in posts subsequent to this one---its an easy book to read, and so far im enjoying it.

[Danik 2016]

Well, I´ll take your comment as a basis for my post as it has been ages that I read the book.

Gone with the Wind must have been a bestseller at his time, probably there were different editions. That would account maybe for this difference in the number of pages.

I don´t remember the chracters so well. Thinking back Ashley is the great obsession of Scarlet. He seems to be rather conventional. He probably is more shocked than flattered by her advances. I think the relationship possibly wouldn´t work, Scarlet would probably get bored with him pretty soon. Melanie is a much better match for him.

Scarlet is portrayed as a willful and anti-conventional but strong and brave type of woman which still seems to shock some of the readers of the book. If I remember rightly it is this unconventionality + her beauty that attracts Rhett Butler.

Melanie was first my heroine - I prefered her more mature, set ways to the behavior of Scarlet. She is also courageous.

As to the morals of the storyI have one opinion today that changed very much the way I regard the book. But I prefer talking about it, when you have finished the book and formed your own opinion. After all I am an outsider.

It´s an easy read and the film is stunning.

[bounty]

makes me wonder when the new York times came out with their "bestseller" feature in the newspaper.

the cover of my copy says "winner of the Pulitzer prize. the most widely read American novel ever written."

we need the girl from pawn stars, Rebecca (who I have a crush on!) to explain the possible difference in page numbers. on one of the inside pages there is listed what appears to be the original "macmillan edition published june 1936." I have the "25th printing December 1967" of the "pocket book edition." later on the page it says "the pocket book edition includes every word contained in the original, higher-priced edition. it is printed from brand-new plates made from completely reset, clear, easy to read type..."

yes, scarlett freaks out when she finds out Ashley's going to marry melanie. she marries Charles mostly out of spite. and after he dies, she spends the next couple of years, before seeing Ashley again, living with melanie and aunt pitty constantly pining for him and when he shows up at christmas, imagining that she can still somehow have him.

if you want, I can go back and actually find the words Ashley himself uses to describe his initial rejection of scarlett.

for sure scarlett is willful and non-conventional, and yet at the same time, still somewhat adherent to strong social norms. I wonder if anyone has ever done a traditional feminist analysis of her.

I agree---part of what Rhett sees in her is a woman who could come more into her own with his anti-establishment influence.

I don't think it bodes well for melanie---I can Ashley dying in prison camp and I can see her dying in childbirth. I suspect ellen is going to die early also.

youre welcome to tell me what you think now danik if you like. it wont spoil the story for me and I can sorta keep my eyes peeled for affirmation or rejection of it as I go along.

im looking forward to watching the movie when im done with the book.

[bounty]

Perhaps the first of my all time favourites! 10/10

assuming downing is of the same nationality of her location, its interesting to consider how a Romanian would come to read the book. I took a quick peek at her profile and found this:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/album.php?albumid=118

and her profile page background seems to be a screen shot from the movie.

its a bummer she doesn't tell us why she loved the book so much.

[Danik 2016]

Do you believe that I quite forgot the existence of Charles, and that Scarlet married after all, but neither Ashley nor Rhett?

I think idealized love dies harder as long as it isn´t affected by reality. Scarlett has in fact very little real contact to Ashley, so he remains an intact obsession.

Well for me the (very) problematic aspect of the novel is that Margareth Mitchell, wholly espouses the point of view of the landed North
American big farmers of the South, including their prejudices.

[bounty]

Charles is barely in the book. on their wedding night scarlett said to him "if you touch me i'll scream."

I think that's a great point about scarlett's love for Ashley enduring because he's absent.

I mentioned before, but its worth saying again, she's not a very admirable character. she recently slipped out of her hospital duties when it was full of wounded soldiers in need and ran off. there's absolutely no instances of her being a mother to her child, wade.

right now the yankees, under Sherman, are fairly on the outskirts of atlanta. I wonder if the drawing on the cover of my copy comes from what I suspect ensues---the burning of the city and Rhett somehow rescuing scarlett.

im not sure im following what youre saying danik. doesn't every author pretty much write from the perspective of the protagonists?

[bounty]

The film ends with a line by Scarlett. Rhett has just walked out on her and, after a crying fit, she concludes: "Oh well, tomorrow is another day"! What! Does the book end the same? After all that's gone before I felt stunned that this should be the grand conclusion! I started reading (but never finished) the book the years ago, and it failed to captivate me then. Having endured the movie I couldn't feel less inclined to pick up the novel once more.

the above post came immediately after the post that rated the book "an all time favorite" and a "10/10!"

I could peek at the end, but i'll keep myself in suspense.

however, I wonder if its such a bad ending? what would the poster have had scarlett say or do? its reminiscent of the famous song and line from annie "tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you tomorrow, you're always a day away..."

there are some clever people on the internet that make insightful and/or snarky alternative endings to movies, theyre called HISHE (how it should have ended) and some of their stuff is pretty funny.

[Danik 2016]

Charles is barely in the book. on their wedding night scarlett said to him "if you touch me i'll scream."

I think that's a great point about scarlett's love for Ashley enduring because he's absent.

I mentioned before, but its worth saying again, she's not a very admirable character. she recently slipped out of her hospital duties when it was full of wounded soldiers in need and ran off. there's absolutely no instances of her being a mother to her child, wade.

right now the yankees, under Sherman, are fairly on the outskirts of atlanta. I wonder if the drawing on the cover of my copy comes from what I suspect ensues---the burning of the city and Rhett somehow rescuing scarlett.

im not sure im following what youre saying danik. doesn't every author pretty much write from the perspective of the protagonists?

Bounty, according to my remembrance Scarlet is no moral example. She follows to much her own will and her own inclinations, specially at the beginning of the novel, when she is still very young.

The moral example according to Mitchell would probably be quiet Melanie.

"im not sure im following what youre saying danik. doesn't every author pretty much write from the perspective of the protagonists?"

I think, very often the answer is yes, Bounty, but there are authors that write from the perspective of different characters, like Faulkner for example in "The Sound of the Fury" or "The Woman in White" by Wilkie Collins. Anyway the perspective of the book, whether singular or multiple manifests the authors values and prejudices.
To learn more about Margareth Mitchell´s I just had a look at her Wikipedia page. It gives a very detailed account of her life (and her ascendance) and shows how much the South she describes in her novel, draws from her own life and readings. If you want to take a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Mitchell

So from her point of view, slavery, for example, would be something natural. But she lives and writes just at a time in the history of US when this ideology is breaking up.

[bounty]

melanie is seemingly on the verge of giving birth. scarlett wants to flee to tara, but melanie cant be moved, so scarlet's staying because she promised Ashley she'd take care of melanie.

ah so you are talking about Margaret Mitchell's own personal views?

alas I think I have to fight with you danik. is there a comical emoji I can insert here (if I was able to use them!) that good-naturedly illustrates that?

I don't see anything in the Wikipedia page supporting a contention that the author is in sympathy with the institution of slavery or that slavery could be understood as a "natural thing."

I think a similar statement, though with less stringency, could be made about racial prejudice as well. at worst she was attracted to books as a youth that decried reconstruction---but everyone in the south hated that, even many years after the fact. there is a running joke in the states that says some people in the south are still fighting the civil war and among other things, aren't fond of northerners. "damn yankees" is still a popular phrase. but there's nothing to indicate she's on the side of the KKK or that she approved of jim crow laws.

[bounty]

I bit through the movie for a class and was glad I never had to read the book..

so here's someone who didn't like the movie! the movie won the academy award for best picture of the year---that's not to say that everyone who watched it should have loved it, but it makes you wonder about the nature of the complaint.

we've talked about this before---the book to movie or movie back to book sequence can be a stimulating and enjoyable process to engage in.

I recently read a book and watched the movie at the same time, going back and forth between the two (the girl who kicked the hornet's nest), and I really enjoyed it. its fun to consider as I go along through this book, knowing there is a movie out there waiting to be watched, what scenes from the book will be in the movie and what wont. I also like being able to picture clark gable and vivien leigh as Rhett and scarlett.

in last nights reading, Rhett was very forward with scarlett concerning his intentions and pretty much propositioned her. there was some revelation too about his attraction to her---I think I mentioned something akin to this earlier---he sees some compatibility with her based on her not being a lady and their being somewhat alike in their contrarian (to southern culture) nature. all the readings been good and easy so far, but that little section was most interesting and I flew through it---lending more credence to pushkin's line of "the attention of women being almost the sole aim of men..."

but scarlett took offense at his presumption, was a little upset at herself by the end of their discussion, and stormed off never wanting to see him again. Rhett's imperturbable...

why do they make such a compelling couple??

[Danik 2016]

melanie is seemingly on the verge of giving birth. scarlett wants to flee to tara, but melanie cant be moved, so scarlet's staying because she promised Ashley she'd take care of melanie.

ah so you are talking about Margaret Mitchell's own personal views?

alas I think I have to fight with you danik. is there a comical emoji I can insert here (if I was able to use them!) that good-naturedly illustrates that?

I don't see anything in the Wikipedia page supporting a contention that the author is in sympathy with the institution of slavery or that slavery could be understood as a "natural thing."

I think a similar statement, though with less stringency, could be made about racial prejudice as well. at worst she was attracted to books as a youth that decried reconstruction---but everyone in the south hated that, even many years after the fact. there is a running joke in the states that says some people in the south are still fighting the civil war and among other things, aren't fond of northerners. "damn yankees" is still a popular phrase. but there's nothing to indicate she's on the side of the KKK or that she approved of jim crow laws.
Yes, Bounty, I mean the authors values as they can be perceived in the perspective of the book. Please take into account that I´m a foreigner and that I read the novel probably more than 50 years ago.

Slavery is a delicate theme in my country, specially now, as the hidden story of Brazilian Afro descendants is brought to light, monuments are set for them, metro stations and districts will even be going to change their names. In yours it seems it created a division, there were almost two countries.

I think Mitchell´s views obey her origin, her upbringing, her reading and her own experience. There probably are other novels about the American Civil War, but I don´t think any one became so popular as "Gone with the Wind" because bound up with an iconic love story.

As you have noticed my quarrel is with the ideological part that favours the point of view of the Southern farmers.

[bounty]

that's the thing though danik, Mitchell's views cannot be discerned from reading the book. no fiction authors views can be discerned through their work unless there is some sort of external corroboration. she's not promoting any racial ideology, especially one that endorses slavery, she's just writing a novel. the book could just as easily have been written by an early 20th century northern abolitionist.

for what its worth, the slaves are hardly in appearance in the book and when they are, its almost always in positions of importance where they have responsibility and care about the jobs they are doing, the people they are doing them for, and to some extent the people seem to care about them. if the reader didn't know they were slaves, you'd think they were valets, butlers, nannies and cooks in the same fashion as wealthy british people had.

im far from an American civil war expert, but yes, for a time there were "two countries" and that was one of the reasons for the war---the north's position and the federal governments position of "sorry, nope, you cant secede from the union" and we're going to use force to preserve the union. slavery was one of the contentious reasons for the south's secession, but "state's rights" were a part of the equation too. to the extent that any justification for the war is given at all in gone with the wind this is the one the characters give.

im reading a very interesting biography on alexander Hamilton, who was an important figure during our revolutionary war and especially afterwards. the part I just finished was a bit confusing but it had to do with Vermont's statehood and its land and borders relative to its neighbors (new York and new Hampshire). it seems there was a lot of fighting over the issue to the point where the states, especially in the absence of a yet to be formed strong federal government, would have fought armed battles over it had not the tension been diffused.

I know there are a couple of contemporary civil war books that have been really popular, killer angels and cold mountain. the first is a narrow account of Gettysburg, the battle credited for turning the tide of the war in the north's favor. the second is a romance of sorts, in north Carolina (a southern state) that occurs mostly in the aftermath of the war and somehow affected by the war. but yes, so far as I know, I agree, gone with the wind is the most widely known civil war story.

how did you come to read it?

its interesting danik---I think in the usa we tend to be so insular in our thinking that we often don't think of other places around the world. it makes sense that slave traders coming to the new world from Africa would have also sold people to south America. how did brazil overcome the issue?

[Danik 2016]

so here's someone who didn't like the movie! the movie won the academy award for best picture of the year---that's not to say that everyone who watched it should have loved it, but it makes you wonder about the nature of the complaint.

we've talked about this before---the book to movie or movie back to book sequence can be a stimulating and enjoyable process to engage in.

I recently read a book and watched the movie at the same time, going back and forth between the two (the girl who kicked the hornet's nest), and I really enjoyed it. its fun to consider as I go along through this book, knowing there is a movie out there waiting to be watched, what scenes from the book will be in the movie and what wont. I also like being able to picture clark gable and vivien leigh as Rhett and scarlett.

in last nights reading, Rhett was very forward with scarlett concerning his intentions and pretty much propositioned her. there was some revelation too about his attraction to her---I think I mentioned something akin to this earlier---he sees some compatibility with her based on her not being a lady and their being somewhat alike in their contrarian (to southern culture) nature. all the readings been good and easy so far, but that little section was most interesting and I flew through it---lending more credence to pushkin's line of "the attention of women being almost the sole aim of men..."

but scarlett took offense at his presumption, was a little upset at herself by the end of their discussion, and stormed off never wanting to see him again. Rhett's imperturbable...

why do they make such a compelling couple??


I enjoyed the film. It's one of the universal films that are a must. I remember watching it with a friend in a big old theater, that had known its days of glory but was then decadent.

Scarlet and Rhett enchant maybe because they are so convincing as a couple even when they are quarreling.

[Danik 2016]

that's the thing though danik, Mitchell's views cannot be discerned from reading the book. no fiction authors views can be discerned through their work unless there is some sort of external corroboration. she's not promoting any racial ideology, especially one that endorses slavery, she's just writing a novel. the book could just as easily have been written by an early 20th century northern abolitionist.

for what its worth, the slaves are hardly in appearance in the book and when they are, its almost always in positions of importance where they have responsibility and care about the jobs they are doing, the people they are doing them for, and to some extent the people seem to care about them. if the reader didn't know they were slaves, you'd think they were valets, butlers, nannies and cooks in the same fashion as wealthy british people had.

im far from an American civil war expert, but yes, for a time there were "two countries" and that was one of the reasons for the war---the north's position and the federal governments position of "sorry, nope, you cant secede from the union" and we're going to use force to preserve the union. slavery was one of the contentious reasons for the south's secession, but "state's rights" were a part of the equation too. to the extent that any justification for the war is given at all in gone with the wind this is the one the characters give.

im reading a very interesting biography on alexander Hamilton, who was an important figure during our revolutionary war and especially afterwards. the part I just finished was a bit confusing but it had to do with Vermont's statehood and its land and borders relative to its neighbors (new York and new Hampshire). it seems there was a lot of fighting over the issue to the point where the states, especially in the absence of a yet to be formed strong federal government, would have fought armed battles over it had not the tension been diffused.

I know there are a couple of contemporary civil war books that have been really popular, killer angels and cold mountain. the first is a narrow account of Gettysburg, the battle credited for turning the tide of the war in the north's favor. the second is a romance of sorts, in north Carolina (a southern state) that occurs mostly in the aftermath of the war and somehow affected by the war. but yes, so far as I know, I agree, gone with the wind is the most widely known civil war story.

how did you come to read it?

its interesting danik---I think in the usa we tend to be so insular in our thinking that we often don't think of other places around the world. it makes sense that slave traders coming to the new world from Africa would have also sold people to south America. how did brazil overcome the issue?

I think there are indirect ways of demonstrating ones views and values in a novel. There is for example the narrator of the story. It´s not the author himself/herself speaking but he or she can be a kind of alter ego, who incorporates the point of view of the author. I think this is the case with "Gone with the Wind". Another aspect that often reveals the authors perspective is which characters are depicted as good and which ones as bad in a story.

I remember very vaguely about reading the novel, I got it in some bibliothek and I read it in Portuguese. I´m sure of it for there is a short passage I remember in Portuguese:
Someone is playing the piano (in the house of Atlanta?) to a tune that runs more or less like this:
"The years pass slowly, Lorena
Again the snow covers the fields..."

The Brazilian slavery i´ll leave for another post later.

[bounty]

sure there are ways to indirectly demonstrate ones views in a novel, but short of external corroboration, ideally as direct statements or behaviors from the author, they are at best only guesses.

I was going to ask if you had read it in English or in Portuguese---ive been curious, since its the latter, how does a dialect/accent translate across languages? when prissy says "Miss Scarlett, ah kain walk. mah feets done blistered an' dey's thoo mah shoes, an' wade an' me doan weigh so much..."

they just abandoned the house in atlanta, but I don't remember reading about the piano scene. i'll have to go back through to see if I can spot it.

the past days worth of reading have been page turners---melanie pregnant on the verge of giving birth, the yankees on the outskirts of the city, the confederate army retreating, melanie giving birth with no doctor or midwife, scarlett turning to Rhett for help, them fleeing the city and trying to return to tara, and Rhett confessing he's loved scarlett ever since he first saw her and he grabs her and kisses her and makes her weak in the knees despite herself (a scene like that is one of the major feminist criticisms of James bond), and then Rhett, in a fit of conscience, abandons them in order to somehow help (seemingly) the retreating army.

I think you are about Rhett and scarlett being a convincing couple---and the reader who wants happy endings or happy relationships kinda looks at them and wants them to succeed. so far though I think scarletts 0 for 3 on her "I hate you and never want to see you again" stance.

[Danik 2016]

I don't have the book in Portuguese, so I couldn't look it up, but in this case I think it wasn so difficult, because Brazil had slaves too. But I recall seeing the soap opera "The Slave Isaura" , which was exported which was exported to many countries, in German in the Net. And it was very funny, because the informal Portuguese of the original had been turned into very formal German.
The piano scene may be later in the book and not necessarily in Atlanta, but in some city. There is an atmosphere about women aging without men.
Yes.I vaguely remember these scenes. Rhett isn't meant to be a bad guy, so he goes to the army at the very last moment.
I agree with you, Scarlet's contradictions are very well shown.

[bounty]

that brings up a really interesting and persnickety linguistic problem doesn't it danik? its making me wonder how authors and translators deal with it.

scarlett's made it back to tara to find the house still standing, her mother dead, her father enfeebled by the loss, her sisters close to recovery, and all but a few of the slaves gone.

the last handful of chapters have been scarlett picking up the pieces with an awful lot of grit and determination. they have all fared better because of her and likely would have died if not for her. my goodness, she even shot a yankee invader right in the face!

at present the war's over and the big question of "what comes next" is on the horizon.

its interesting that Rhett has not appeared in many many months.

oh---one small language thing I found interesting. in forrest gump, when forrest's mother gets sick, he says "she got the cancer." most people wouldn't say it that way. we'd say "she got cancer." when scarlett's mother and two sisters got sick, the narrator says "they got the typhoid." again, we'd say "they got typhoid."

im wondering now if adding the article "the" is a southern thing, or an old-fashioned thing, or just a quirky writer thing.

[bounty]

I have read this book a couple of years ago and it really moved me and the places mentioned in the novel resembled the one I grew in, my small village. And what is more things or cultures are intrinsically not different notwithstanding the fact that on the surface they are.

this is an interesting consideration---part of the early attraction of the book I think is the southern gentile charm and cozy relationships the somewhat distant neighbors have with each other. in fact, this very point becomes something scarlett rails against when she finds those around her lamenting how the past used to be, and how their present is very much unlike it.

would have been good for blazeofglory to elaborate on cultures being "intrinsically not different"---at least one part of the book refutes that. there is a character from the North who even though after twenty years of being in the South, still does not fit in or understand southerners.

[Danik 2016]

Just an excursion. You asked me how Brazil dealt with slavery.

Brazil was the last country to end slavery. Other than in US, in Brazil the end of slavery was a gradual process during 19. C. resulting as a consequence of internal and external pressures. There was the pressure of the abolitionistso groups inside and outside parliament, but there was also the counter pressure of the farmers, like the coffee barons from São Paulo, whose production was sustained by slave work. There was foreign pressure, mainly from Great Britain, to end slave traffic. The slaves themselves fled when they could from the farms and organized themselves in "quilombos", secluded black communities. In a novel written during this time it is related that during their flight, many black women threw their newborns into the river, because they didn´t envisage any future for them.

So the most important laws that led up to abolition were:

1850-Law Eusébio de Queirós which, as a direct consequence of British pressure, forbade the slave trade in the whole country.

1871- The Law of the Free Womb- Children born of slaves from that date would be free.

1885-Law of the Sexagenarians which declared free al slaves over 60.

And at last, three years later, in May 13th. 1888, Princess Isabell, the daughter of the then reigning emperor Pedro II, signed the Lei Áurea, the Golden Law that set all slaves free.

However the main argument is that it was more a formal action. For the slaves themselves little changed at first, they remained destitute and without opportunities, some of them even preferred to stay where they had lived up to then. Many farmers though lad to look for new paid workers and that resulted, in the case of São Paulo, in the arrival of Japanese and Italian emigrants. The consequence for the Government was the loss of popularity in certain groups which led to the increase republican aspirations. One year later, in 1889, Brazil was declared a Republic. D. Pedro II and his family had to leave the country.

[bounty]

thanks danik, that was interesting. it makes me wonder if the usa was the only place that had a significant bloody conflict over the matter.

a tie between what you wrote and some elements of the book---when scarlett returns to tara after the union army had already been through it, some of the slaves had remained, refusing to leave.

right now scarlett's in atlanta and she just had a brief interaction with a former slave who was driving a carriage in order to make money for the household. mammy is somewhat upset by the whole scene (including "loafing negroes" and "insolent blacks") in front of them "soon's ah kick dis black trash outer mah way...ah doan lak disyere town miss scarlett. it's too full of yankees an' cheap free issue [the recently freed slaves]."

[bounty]

When I read this in 8th grade, my impressions were exactly what one might expect from a pre-teenager. But now at an extremely advanced age, I'm beginning to think that both the novel -- and especially the so-called "iconic" 1939 movie -- have been over-rated. It's a soap opera in
an historical setting, that's all.

part of the fun of book conversation is the answer to the question of "why are you reading this book?" the answer to that question might be made all the more interesting when you consider the reader is in 8th grade.

I object a bit to the "soap opera" moniker as a criticism. on one level id say "so what?" on another level id say "what book isn't (or close to) a soap opera?"

[Danik 2016]

thanks danik, that was interesting. it makes me wonder if the usa was the only place that had a significant bloody conflict over the matter.

a tie between what you wrote and some elements of the book---when scarlett returns to tara after the union army had already been through it, some of the slaves had remained, refusing to leave.

right now scarlett's in atlanta and she just had a brief interaction with a former slave who was driving a carriage in order to make money for the household. mammy is somewhat upset by the whole scene (including "loafing negroes" and "insolent blacks") in front of them "soon's ah kick dis black trash outer bloomah way...ah doan lak disyere town miss scarlett. it's too full of yankees an' cheap free issue [the recently freed slaves]."
You have me there, bounty, because I don't which other countries beside US and Brazil had slaves. In Brazil there were conflicts in some states, but nothing like the Secession War.
This sentence of Mammy you cited is a wonderful example of how in the novel the black that remained loyal to their former owners, saw the conflict with their eyes. A real Mammy would hardly use these descriptions of her own race.

[Sancho]

…oh---one small language thing I found interesting. in forrest gump, when forrest's mother gets sick, he says "she got the cancer." most people wouldn't say it that way. we'd say "she got cancer." when scarlett's mother and two sisters got sick, the narrator says "they got the typhoid." again, we'd say "they got typhoid."

im wondering now if adding the article "the" is a southern thing, or an old-fashioned thing, or just a quirky writer thing.

I like those little linguistic details. Why and when do we put the article before the noun? Americans get sick and go to the hospital, but Brits get sick and go to hospital. When we go to school we’re going to a place but also we’re engaging in a pursuit of knowledge. When we go to the school we’re going to a specific building. New Yorkers take I-95, but Californians take The 5.
I’m from the south and I don’t remember people saying “I’ve got the cancer” unless of course they were trying to sound more southern by channeling Sally Field.

[Danik 2016]

Well, i`m only an outsider, but I never remembered reading that someone got "the cancer". But I´ve seen the article in front of illnesses that are in the plural:https://youtu.be/GWEHsGXGqvE

It´s only very indirectly related to Gone in the Wind and the Quixote but I would like very much read your opinions about this, also tailor´s, after all it´s a neighbor country. Is this just a humorous way to make money?
https://www.slowjamastan.org/

[Sancho]

A close neighbor to Weebeejammin no doubt. Looks like some guys having a little fun. I’ve never been to Slowjamastan, but I’ll bet they have some cool vibes. It’s probably in New Orleans.

[bounty]

I was going to suggest that weebeejammin would be a good candidate for the slowjamastan national anthem, but I see they already have one!

hard to know what to make of that danik---but I noticed it cost 150 dollars to buy a brick for goodness sake. if they are wanting to make money, I think they are ironically charging too much.

I don't remember the name of the place but just recently some wise guys created a fake city and convinced Newark NJ to become their "sister city."

Sancho im an avid watcher of the tour de france and am glued to the telly every july. phil liggett, a brit, has done the tv commentary for the tour for decades, and someone usually ends up "in hospital."

I haven't mentioned anything "vocabulary" yet, which is another fun part of reading books from other time periods or other countries. ive heard the word "scalawag" before but didn't know that one of its meanings is a white southerner who supported the northern republicans during reconstruction.

both scarlett and mammy recently used the word "hant"---from the context it might mean a ghost.

danik, I cannot say definitively that some blacks in the south who remained in the service of their former owners, would criticize freed blacks in the manner that mammy did, but what she said rings true to me both as something that likely happened, and as something consistent with the context of book.

to the latter point, its less about blind race identification, and more about social class and loyalty. there are numerous instances in the book where certain people are referred to as "white trash." mammy also has a tremendous maternal devotion to scarlett, both for scarlett's sake, and for the memory of her deceased mother ellen. there is a bit of snobbery in the first part, but a commendable selfless spirit in the second. given that, its easy to see how mammy could think what she did concerning her fellow blacks who have less social standing and manners, but more importantly, have given up their charges.

"the typhoid" appears in the second line on pg 279, a letter to scarlett from her father, "...and then, at the end of his letter, mentioned briefly that careen (one of her sisters) was ill. the typhoid, mrs o'hara said it was."

a couple interesting small trivia points---there is a minor character called rene picard. its the same name of captain jean-luc picard's nephew who died in a fire in the early part of star trek: generations.

Sancho, surely you recognize the name judge kenesaw mountain landis. maybe I knew this once but forgot, or maybe I never knew---but "kenesaw mountain" is a real place in Georgia, and it appears in the book. oddly enough, landis was born in ohio.

LOTS has gone on the book lately. will catch up here soon...

[Danik 2016]

I got curious but didn´t find weebeejammin.

In fact the bricks in that country are very expensive. But it seems they´ve got tourists there. I thought maybe anything like Brazilian Beto Carrero World, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beto_Carrero_World, but more inclined to be a model of national identity with political instituitions.

Back to "Gone With The Wind:

"danik, I cannot say definitively that some blacks in the south who remained in the service of their former owners, would criticize freed blacks in the manner that mammy did, but what she said rings true to me both as something that likely happened, and as something consistent with the context of book.

to the latter point, its less about blind race identification, and more about social class and loyalty. there are numerous instances in the book where certain people are referred to as "white trash." mammy also has a tremendous maternal devotion to scarlett, both for scarlett's sake, and for the memory of her deceased mother ellen. there is a bit of snobbery in the first part, but a commendable selfless spirit in the second. given that, its easy to see how mammy could think what she did concerning her fellow blacks who have less social standing and manners, but more importantly, have given up their charges."

Good argument, Bounty. Yes, Mammy´s comment is certainly coherent with the book's point of view. Another good point you make is about status. Mammy feels herself as part of Scarlett's family and in that capacity superior to the loafing ex-slaves, who once they were free, didn´t feel any connection to their former owners any more.

Mammy also fears superior to the loafers, in that, even under changed circumstances, she continues to work and be useful to "her family". This is a very positive trait of her personality, but characters like Mammy somehow distract from the darker sides of slavery.

[bounty]

have you ever seen the movie Django unchained danik? its been a long time and so the details are fuzzy but the broad strokes should suffice. Jamie foxx and Christopher waltz are running around the movie as bounty hunters and with the goal of freeing Jamie's wife, they end up at a plantation owned by Leonardo de caprio where Samuel L Jackson serves as a house slave. eventually a wild shooting match ensues and Jackson defends his master, attempting to thwart foxx and waltz's rescue attempt. it was kinda distasteful to watch and Jackson was even asked about it after the film. "how could you play such a part!"

I think if gone with the wind revealed "the darker side of slavery" it couldn't have been the book it was. we tolerate and even somewhat root for the main characters because they haven't engaged in that dark side and at times are even beneficent.

to catch up on the story---holy cow there's been a lot!

Ashley returned from prison camp, tara is at risk from scalawags, scarlett threw herself at Ashley and tried to get him to run away with her, Rhett's rich and in prison, scarlett throws herself at him but Rhett has to reject the offer because he needs to protect the location of his money (which is what scarlett's after), she finds out frank kennedy has money and she effectively steals him away (with a lie) from her younger sister and marries him in order to save tara. she bought a sawmill with money Rhett eventually gave her, frank is scandalized because she doesn't act like a proper lady (I mentioned earlier that scarlett is a sort of early feminist) and scarlett's pregnant.

the sections describing scarlett's "man-like" behavior are interesting---will share those soon...

oh---"weebeejammin" is Sancho probably referring to an old reggae song (I don't recall the title) that has the lyrics "we be jammin'" in it.

[bounty]

I am going to read this book soon and what tempted me to read this book though I have already read it two times is because this book has so many things bearing resemblances to the village I grew up and what interests me more in this book in point of fact that despite the fact that different geographies hold us and we speak different languages and brought up different socioeconomic setups and cultural backgrounds deep down all of us live with the same values and we all are humans before anything else. Our identities as Asians, Americans, Africans, whites, blacks are skin deep.

there is a line at the end of black panther where t'challa says something like "and the things that join us together are greater than the things that separate us."

I don't know if I buy that, and similarly I don't know that I buy blazes' "deep down all of us live with the same values..."

we may indeed be "humans before anything else" but I think that only works as a rallying point when the world is being attacked by aliens. and even then, there would likely be a fair number of humans wanting to join the alien side.

and again, the irony is saying such things in reference to gone with the wind, which is just full of contrasting and conflicting cultures and values.

[Danik 2016]

have you ever seen the movie Django unchained danik? its been a long time and so the details are fuzzy but the broad strokes should suffice. Jamie foxx and Christopher waltz are running around the movie as bounty hunters and with the goal of freeing Jamie's wife, they end up at a plantation owned by Leonardo de caprio where Samuel L Jackson serves as a house slave. eventually a wild shooting match ensues and Jackson defends his master, attempting to thwart foxx and waltz's rescue attempt. it was kinda distasteful to watch and Jackson was even asked about it after the film. "how could you play such a part!"

I think if gone with the wind revealed "the darker side of slavery" it couldn't have been the book it was. we tolerate and even somewhat root for the main characters because they haven't engaged in that dark side and at times are even beneficent.

to catch up on the story---holy cow there's been a lot!

Ashley returned from prison camp, tara is at risk from scalawags, scarlett threw herself at Ashley and tried to get him to run away with her, Rhett's rich and in prison, scarlett throws herself at him but Rhett has to reject the offer because he needs to protect the location of his money (which is what scarlett's after), she finds out frank kennedy has money and she effectively steals him away (with a lie) from her younger sister and marries him in order to save tara. she bought a sawmill with money Rhett eventually gave her, frank is scandalized because she doesn't act like a proper lady (I mentioned earlier that scarlett is a sort of early feminist) and scarlett's pregnant.

the sections describing scarlett's "man-like" behavior are interesting---will share those soon...

oh---"weebeejammin" is Sancho probably referring to an old reggae song (I don't recall the title) that has the lyrics "we be jammin'" in it.

I haven´t seen Django, but I think I see what you mean. It is not always easy to take sides in those situations.

"I think if gone with the wind revealed "the darker side of slavery" it couldn't have been the book it was. we tolerate and even somewhat root for the main characters because they haven't engaged in that dark side and at times are even beneficent."
I fully understand you. But there are a lot of authors who write about the "dark side" like Faulkner (foremost, I suppose you have read something byI am him) and Ralph Elison.
I am very curious about the sections on Scarlett´s "man-like" behaviour. What I find so compelling about this character is her independence and resourcefulness. Of course she makes her victims: the sister loses her husband, but the estate is saved.

[Danik 2016]

there is a line at the end of black panther where t'challa says something like "and the things that join us together are greater than the things that separate us."

I don't know if I buy that, and similarly I don't know that I buy blazes' "deep down all of us live with the same values..."

we may indeed be "humans before anything else" but I think that only works as a rallying point when the world is being attacked by aliens. and even then, there would likely be a fair number of humans wanting to join the alien side.

and again, the irony is saying such things in reference to gone with the wind, which is just full of contrasting and conflicting cultures and values.

Kudoz to you, Bounty! You are an attentive reader who doesn´t become pray to well sounding statements.

"we may indeed be "humans before anything else" but I think that only works as a rallying point when the world is being attacked by aliens. and even then, there would likely be a fair number of humans wanting to join the alien side."
Lol! I have to agree with you. And if the humans that join the aliens are more than the rallying ones, we will all be done in!

[bounty]

i appreciate your kind thoughts danik, thank you.

I tried reading as I lay dying a long time ago but could not get into it so I gave up, and I have Ellison's invisible man but haven't read that yet.

frank's criticism of scarlett takes place over a handful of pages, 529-535. i'll put a representative collection of the snippets here (the context is her buying and operating the sawmill):

"frank, in common with all men he knew, felt that a wife should be guided by her husband's superior knowledge, should accept his opinions in full and have none of her own."

"but the things scarlett set her mind on were unthinkable."

"go into business for herself! it was unthinkable. there were no women in business in atlanta. in fact, frank had never heard of a woman in business anywhere. if women were so unfortunate as to be compelled to make a little money to assist their families...they made it in quiet womanly ways...[and] kept themselves at home while doing it."

"selling lumber in town! that was the worst of all...frank wished he could hide in the dark...and see no one. his wife selling lumber!"

"it was bad enough that she had intruded herself among strange rough workmen, but it was still worse for a woman to show publicly that she could do mathematics like that."

"on top of everything else, she was actually making money out of the mill, and no man could feel right about a wife who succeeded in so unwomanly an activity."

"frank was not only amazed at his wife's views and her plans but at the change which had come over her in the few months since their marriage. this wasn't the soft, sweet, feminine person he had taken to wife. in the brief period of their courtship, he thought he had never know a woman more attractively feminine in her reactions to life, ignorant, timid and helpless. now her reactions were all masculine. despite her pink cheeks and dimples and pretty smiles, she talked and acted like a man."

"...scarlett was guided by no one but herself and was conducting her affairs in a masculine way which had the whole town talking. and, thought frank miserably, probably talking about me too for letting her act so unwomanly."

"'a woman out to pay more attention to her home and her family and not be gadding about like a man.'"

[Sancho]

A while back I read a collection of Slave Narratives. They were oral histories of former slaves, written down in the 1930s. The people who wrote down these stories were participating in the Federal Writers Program which was part of the WPA during the Great Depression. It is obvious that some of the writers took more care in rendering the narratives than others. At any rate the stories are fascinating. Many of them use phonetic spelling to render the pronunciation of the former slaves. A few of the story tellers expressed a little nostalgia for being enslaved, but I think that was largely based on how badly they suffered under Reconstruction. Not too many of them got the “forty acres and a mule” General Sherman promised. I’ve often wondered how different our history would be if Abe Lincoln had presided over Reconstruction rather than Andrew Johnson.

https://youtu.be/HeQXl_kM2rQ

[Danik 2016]

i appreciate your kind thoughts danik, thank you.

I tried reading as I lay dying a long time ago but could not get into it so I gave up, and I have Ellison's invisible man but haven't read that yet.

frank's criticism of scarlett takes place over a handful of pages, 529-535. i'll put a representative collection of the snippets here (the context is her buying and operating the sawmill):

"frank, in common with all men he knew, felt that a wife should be guided by her husband's superior knowledge, should accept his opinions in full and have none of her own."

"but the things scarlett set her mind on were unthinkable."

"go into business for herself! it was unthinkable. there were no women in business in atlanta. in fact, frank had never heard of a woman in business anywhere. if women were so unfortunate as to be compelled to make a little money to assist their families...they made it in quiet womanly ways...[and] kept themselves at home while doing it."

"selling lumber in town! that was the worst of all...frank wished he could hide in the dark...and see no one. his wife selling lumber!"

"it was bad enough that she had intruded herself among strange rough workmen, but it was still worse for a woman to show publicly that she could do mathematics like that."

"on top of everything else, she was actually making money out of the mill, and no man could feel right about a wife who succeeded in so unwomanly an activity."

"frank was not only amazed at his wife's views and her plans but at the change which had come over her in the few months since their marriage. this wasn't the soft, sweet, feminine person he had taken to wife. in the brief period of their courtship, he thought he had never know a woman more attractively feminine in her reactions to life, ignorant, timid and helpless. now her reactions were all masculine. despite her pink cheeks and dimples and pretty smiles, she talked and acted like a man."

"...scarlett was guided by no one but herself and was conducting her affairs in a masculine way which had the whole town talking. and, thought frank miserably, probably talking about me too for letting her act so unwomanly."

"'a woman out to pay more attention to her home and her family and not be gadding about like a man.'"

Lollolol!

Thanks, Bounty! Now I know why i erased Frank Kennedy from my memory. Margareth Mitchell as feminist is simply wonderful.
This is a summing up of it all!

"frank was not only amazed at his wife's views and her plans but at the change which had come over her in the few months since their marriage. this wasn't the soft, sweet, feminine person he had taken to wife. in the brief period of their courtship, he thought he had never know a woman more attractively feminine in her reactions to life, ignorant, timid and helpless. now her reactions were all masculine. despite her pink cheeks and dimples and pretty smiles, she talked and acted like a man."

[bounty]

I don't know enough about history to know what positive things were don't during reconstruction, but the picture the author paints of it is pretty bad. it seems a lot less about how the north could help rebuild the south and more about how the north can punish and subjugate the south. its easy to see how the all of the south could have resented the north.

the Lincoln question is a good one---he seems to have a reputation for being merciful. I read a bio of him not long ago and learned (if I remember rightly) he was an advocate for the movement of repatriating the slaves back to Africa.

danik to add more to the frank kennedy conversation---he's actually a mild mannered and fore bearing husband. the war cost him a great deal both physically and mentally and he just wants peace. scarlett is partial hellcat to him, and ironically, has contempt for him because of his weakness as regards her.

I have some quote, I don't know where I got it, that seems a bit fitting: “He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”

additional points about the nostalgia of the times---scarlett was riding around atlanta in a buggy driven by uncle peter, aunt pitty's house slave. some yankee women speak really badly about blacks to scarlett, within ear shot of uncle peter as if he isn't there. scarlett makes a defense of him, but he is still deeply upset that her defense didn't rise to the level of standing he felt he had in the family.

Gerald, scarlett's father, just died in a riding accident, and one of the house slaves, pork, dug his grave, and cried the next day at the funeral.

there is something really interesting going on now---everyone is blaming suellen for geralds death, and for betraying their love of the south. there is a southern custom of funeral goers speaking over the coffin of the deceased and will and Ashley are sure some of the neighbors are going to lay into suellen, and since will is about to marry her, he wont stand for it. he seems to have some strategy to head that off at the pass, and im just on the cusp of finding out if it works or not...

[bounty]

It was a fabulous book. Margaret Mitchell wrote just one novel during her entire life and it became an instant best seller. It was a quality novel.

The central character was of Scarllet O'Hara. After facing the difficulties of losing her mother and hunger, Scarllet wanted to do only one thing- make enough money to tell the world to go to hell.
She may have taken some sordid ways to achieve her aim-such as marrying her sister's beaux etc. But all in all she had a greater sense of responsibility than Suellen or Carreen.
Perhaps the worst character was of Suellen. She had no sense of responsibility. And I can't quite figure out why Carreen was so hooked up on the Tarleton boy.

Understandbly Scarllet's high-headedness came from facing the fears of hunger, insecurity etc. She made a strong decision that she never wanted to be hungry again and she was prepared to go to any length to achieve her ambition.

She made mistakes as well. She never really recognized Rhett love for her. She had this illusion of Ashley dashing gentleman, however in the end she did discover what a coward Ahsley was! But above all she failed to recognize the graceful,sophisticated and mature personality possessed by Melanie Wilkes because she always judged her subjectively.

In my opinion this novel gives the reader a lesson to take life as a roller coaster ride and be prepared to face courageously anything that life throws at you. Just like after losing Rhett, Scarllet aimed to earn back his love and devotion and she thought that after all "Tomorrow is just another day!".

I think the two best parts of the summary are the mentions of scarlett's responsibility in the face of life's trials. its one of the things that make her a commendable character when she seems to be lacking in other ways.

and the admonition to be courageous in the midst of the roller coaster ride.

im not convinced, at least so far, that she doesn't recognize Rhett's love for her (maybe that happens later)---my sense is that despite her somewhat enlightened and feminist approach to life, she sees Rhett as a sort of scoundrel that she couldn't really ever be with. her attraction to him is at odds with her southern gentility.

interestingly, this was hams first and seemingly only post!

[Danik 2016]

I don't know enough about history to know what positive things were don't during reconstruction, but the picture the author paints of it is pretty bad. it seems a lot less about how the north could help rebuild the south and more about how the north can punish and subjugate the south. its easy to see how the all of the south could have resented the north.

the Lincoln question is a good one---he seems to have a reputation for being merciful. I read a bio of him not long ago and learned (if I remember rightly) he was an advocate for the movement of repatriating the slaves back to Africa.

danik to add more to the frank kennedy conversation---he's actually a mild mannered and fore bearing husband. the war cost him a great deal both physically and mentally and he just wants peace. scarlett is partial hellcat to him, and ironically, has contempt for him because of his weakness as regards her.

I have some quote, I don't know where I got it, that seems a bit fitting: “He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”

additional points about the nostalgia of the times---scarlett was riding around atlanta in a buggy driven by uncle peter, aunt pitty's house slave. some yankee women speak really badly about blacks to scarlett, within ear shot of uncle peter as if he isn't there. scarlett makes a defense of him, but he is still deeply upset that her defense didn't rise to the level of standing he felt he had in the family.

Gerald, scarlett's father, just died in a riding accident, and one of the house slaves, pork, dug his grave, and cried the next day at the funeral.

there is something really interesting going on now---everyone is blaming suellen for geralds death, and for betraying their love of the south. there is a southern custom of funeral goers speaking over the coffin of the deceased and will and Ashley are sure some of the neighbors are going to lay into suellen, and since will is about to marry her, he wont stand for it. he seems to have some strategy to head that off at the pass, and im just on the cusp of finding out if it works or not...

I don´t either. The few authors I´ve read about the North American South in general: Faulkner, Ellison and Tony Morrison paint sombre pictures of decadence. One has to remember that like in Brazil the farmers that depended on the slaves to manage their farms lost much more than the industrialized North. As for the former slaves, they got their liberty, but it probably took a very long time until they were accepted and absorved by the market as paid workers.

Atlanta seems to be a kind of city where North and South meets after the war and Margareth Mitchell seems to be very good in showing this post-war atmosphere and it´s several voices.

As for Fred Kennedy, he seems to be an average and very conventional man who is simply subjugated by Scarllet´s strong personallity.

Suellen is Scarlet´s younger sister? I don´t remember anything about her.

[Danik 2016]

Editing the post above is again not possible, but here are 10 points summing up the slave economical system in the North American South which seem worth to look at:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111220190203/http://eh.net/node/2749

[bounty]

I appreciate the link danik, i'll have to go back and read it more carefully. some of the things in the list I found pretty surprising.

in a recent conversation with scarlett, Rhett pointed out how she rode roughshod over frank, because he let her. Rhett's position is that its frank's fault for not having "beaten her with a buggy whip."

and holy cow! scarlett was attacked, frank and Ashley are in the KKK and they all went out to kill the attackers, frank's dead, Ashley's wounded, and Rhett saved the day by getting belle watling (the woman who runs the local house of ill-repute) to testify all the culprits had spend the evening with her and her fellow ladies of the evening---and Rhett just proposed to scarlett!

[Danik 2016]

Now you´ve come to the point that irk´s me so much: how KKK is presented in the novel. When I read the novel I still didn´t realize the power of it and that it exists to our days.

[bounty]

have you seen the movie Braveheart danik?

[Danik 2016]

I think not, though it was very famous here under the name "Coração Valente".

[bounty]

hmm, whats the possibility of your watching it sometime soon? great movie, and possibly verrrry relevant to some of the conversation here.

[bounty]

I've never been a huge fan of "Gone With the Wind", but I couldn't help admire Scarlett's strength, and Rhett's dignity. Also, I appreciate the immediacy of Mitchell's writing, and her ability to depict the Civil War era in a very vivid manner.

I agree that scarlett's strength is probably her best characteristic, otherwise, one wonders why the author would have had her as the main character.

Rhett's "dignity" is an interesting consideration---the tension between how one carries himself with the things one actually does that are seemingly NOT dignified, would be worth some conversation.

I also like the insight into Mitchell's writing style---"immediacy" seems very apt.

right now, scarlett and Rhett are married and in new orleans---I wonder how we get from that to "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

[Danik 2016]

I had a look at You tube, but the film is not available. And my eyesight is not that wonderful at present, so I have to go slowly. Posts I can manage, but not a two hour film.

[Danik 2016]

I agree that scarlett's strength is probably her best characteristic, otherwise, one wonders why the author would have had her as the main character.

Rhett's "dignity" is an interesting consideration---the tension between how one carries himself with the things one actually does that are seemingly NOT dignified, would be worth some conversation.

I also like the insight into Mitchell's writing style---"immediacy" seems very apt.

right now, scarlett and Rhett are married and in new orleans---I wonder how we get from that to "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

"Rhett's "dignity" is an interesting consideration---the tension between how one carries himself with the things one actually does that are seemingly NOT dignified, would be worth some conversation."

I hardly think amalia 1985 will answer but I got curious about your thoughts on Rhett.

[bounty]

heck danik, it almost seems unsettling to try to answer that question. by that I mean, probably like with scarlett, you kinda like the guy but you half wonder that you shouldn't.

as to liking him---he's brave, forthright, confident, full of ingenuity, and I suspect male readers of the book are appreciative of his success with women (man's sole purpose in life!).

as to wondering if we should like him---his pragmatism conflicts with most of the moral code held by the south. during the war when he was a blockade runner, he was acceptable or even praiseworthy because it benefitted the south. now that the war is over, and he refuses to continue to fight it so to speak, he mingles freely with the yankees and benefits by his relationships with them (a scallawag) and has earned, justly or not, most everyone's ire. while everyone else has remained principled and struggling economically, Rhett continues to get richer. its hard to know whether to admire him for his street smarts, or denounce him for his lack of solidarity with his fellow southerners.

on the topic of Rhett leaving scarlett, I can only think it will have something to do with her love of Ashley.

early on in Braveheart danik, William Wallace's new bride is killed by the English occupying forces. because there is no legal recourse for him to follow, he bands with his fellow scots, takes revenge on the perpetrators and kills the man responsible. the scene works because it appeals to our basic human need for justice.

id say there are similarities between that and the presence of the kkk in gone with the wind. ultimately in real life we disapprove of them because of their association with white supremacy and bigotry, but it seems to me that their motivation in the book is more along the lines of seeking justice against the depredations of an occupying force.

[bounty]

Read it twice as an adolescent. Great read!

I think when I am through with the book im going to go back through the thread and ascertain the gender of posts like this one---and im confident most will be female.

that aside for a moment---to have read the book at all as a teenager is impressive, but then to have read it twice!

[Danik 2016]

I also don´t think it easy to evaluate Rhett. I think he is Margareth Mitchel´s idea of an outsider among the more conventional men of the south. He is much more resourcefull than they are, he has less fear of the public opinion than they but he also has less scruples. But in extreme moments, he is loyal to them.
Scarlet would be his counterpart in female version. As for why they separate, there is still much water to flow under the bridge. No spoilers.

The matter about the KKK is more sensitive. I see it as a creation of what we would call extreme right today and responsible for many crimes. But I am from another country. The only way of you knowing more about it, is by informing you. And I didn´t leave any links on purpose.

[bounty]

boy danik, the more I read, the less I like scarlett and maybe the more I don't wanna watch the movie!

she just recently had a baby with Rhett, and then after an interaction with Ashley, decided she wanted to be true to him, and demanded separate bedrooms, the implication being that she wasn't going to be intimate anymore with Rhett.

thinking more about Rhett as a character---I haven't seen the marvel streaming series loki but ive seen enough of the movies that he's in, and he's a huge scoundrel, much more so than Rhett (or han solo, who is also somewhat comparable to Rhett). loki should rightly be despised but he isn't. its puzzling.

let me suggest danik that a better, and more accurate way of labeling people according to their beliefs is not "right or left" but rather, "rights conferring/affirming" or "rights restricting."

[bounty]

Gone With The Wind is America's number one epic novel, just as Tolstoy's War And Peace is Russia's number one epic novel. Some might argue that Moby Dick or Huckleberry Finn are more epical than Gone With The Wind. But I don't think they are. I think Gone With The Wind is at the top.

ive been holding my tongue on war and peace, and I know there are a couple other mentions of it in subsequent posts, so i'll wait.

its been a long time since ive read the adventures of huckleberry finn but my memory of it is that it wasn't as grand in its scope as is gone with the wind.

moby dick sucks! the historical event of "the great white whale" that is told by Philbrick in in the heart of the sea: the tragedy of the whaleship Essex is incredible. if moby dick would have been written along those lines it would have been a fantastic story---but it wasn't. its not epic at all, its a "how to" on whaling.

[bounty]

I first read it when I was 12 and I consider it one of the great American novels.

its really impressive that mother read this at such a young age. wouldn't ya love to be able to ask her how she came to read it?

and ive mentioned something similar before---can you imagine a 12yr old boy reading the book?

[Danik 2016]

boy danik, the more I read, the less I like scarlett and maybe the more I don't wanna watch the movie!

she just recently had a baby with Rhett, and then after an interaction with Ashley, decided she wanted to be true to him, and demanded separate bedrooms, the implication being that she wasn't going to be intimate anymore with Rhett.

thinking more about Rhett as a character---I haven't seen the marvel streaming series loki but ive seen enough of the movies that he's in, and he's a huge scoundrel, much more so than Rhett (or han solo, who is also somewhat comparable to Rhett). loki should rightly be despised but he isn't. its puzzling.

let me suggest danik that a better, and more accurate way of labeling people according to their beliefs is not "right or left" but rather, "rights conferring/affirming" or "rights restricting."

Bounty, I remember liking Melany much more than Scarlett, when I read the novel. Scarlett is so willful. However she is the soul of the novel,
beside her the other characters, even Rhett, pale. Rhett is without scruples. In this he is the typical business man. But I don´t remember if he deliberately hurts other characters. This is a sort of soap opera pair: the beautiful girl and the rich suitor. But it seems the initially very superficial Scarlett, metamorphoses into a strong woman. I think that is what makes her so attractive.

[bounty]

"Miss Melly" is a fantastic character, and it's to scarlett's discredit that she secretly resents her and doesn't really like her. I suspect the book could have been well written with her as the central character---a sort of jane eyre meets the civil war.

what's going on now is scarlett just got "caught" in Ashley's arms. he was only comforting her as a friend so it was more or less an innocent interaction, but the people who saw it weren't inclined to give scarlett the benefit of any doubt. scarlett tries to beg off going to a party for Ashley but Rhett makes her go, and melanie receives scarlett as if nothing has happened at all. although---I suspect there will have to be some dialog in the ensuing pages.

the relationship between Rhett and scarlett at present is pretty poisonous.

[spikepipsqueak]

boy danik, the more I read, the less I like scarlett and maybe the more I don't wanna watch the movie!

she just recently had a baby with Rhett, and then after an interaction with Ashley, decided she wanted to be true to him, and demanded separate bedrooms, the implication being that she wasn't going to be intimate anymore with Rhett.

thinking more about Rhett as a character---I haven't seen the marvel streaming series loki but ive seen enough of the movies that he's in, and he's a huge scoundrel, much more so than Rhett (or han solo, who is also somewhat comparable to Rhett). loki should rightly be despised but he isn't. its puzzling.

I know you're conversing with Danik, please forgive me for butting in.

It's ages since I've seen the film or read the book but my memory seems to suggest a series of cascading misunderstandings. Each feeling rejected and withdrawing. Each withdrawal feeding the rejection felt by the other.

Loki. He represents the trickster in all of us. We forgive him because he can't help it. IMO


let me suggest danik that a better, and more accurate way of labeling people according to their beliefs is not "right or left" but rather, "rights conferring/affirming" or "rights restricting."

Love that wording. You're right. :)

[bounty]

not all spike, in this case, the more the merrier.

that's an interesting thought about Rhett and scarlett. if there is some truth to it, then the book would be a great reading for a class in a grad school counseling program wouldn't it?

at the same time though---some of their dysfunction is independent of that. most recently Rhett was railing on scarlett about her foolish choices in life (especially as regards Ashley) and in his railing, says to scarlett that he loves/loved her. rather than melting at that, scarlett rather sees it that she's finally gained power over him that she can use to her own benefit. ironically this happens right after an aggressive make-out and subsequent love making scene that James bond would be envious of.

there have been two such scenes in the book, and I think the authors ability to write them has been fantastic. although I wonder what modern militant feminists would think of them.

I appreciate your liking that spike, thank you...

[Danik 2016]

Welcome to the thread Spike!

"the relationship between Rhett and scarlett at present is pretty poisonous.". Lol, that seems to be their normal and it sort of spices it, I think. I don´t remember the story so well as to remember about the misunderstandings, Spike, but their recurrence is significant. I fully agree with that;" Each feeling rejected and withdrawing. Each withdrawal feeding the rejection felt by the other."

Sometimes it seems to be rather a war of power than a war of love between the two. Or maybe their love can´t exist without this power challenge.

[bounty]

theres always been a combative, tumultuous and attractive edge to their relationship, but now that they are married and influencing each other to a larger degree, they're actually starting to harm each other, probably more so with scarlett hurting Rhett.

there was a female comedian a few decades ago, whose name escapes me, who had a recurring tag line that went "you want to possess me!" its making me laugh just to think about it.

an interesting aspect to your thought danik is how Mitchell describes their last bit of lovemaking on p783: "suddenly she had a wild thrill such as she had never known; joy, fear, madness, excitement, surrender to arms that were too strong, lips too bruising, fate that moved too fast. for the first time in her life she had met someone, something stronger than she, someone she could neither bully nor break, someone who was bullying and breaking her. somehow her arms were around his neck and her lips trembling beneath his and they were going up, up into the darkness again, a darkness that was soft and swirling and all enveloping...the man who had carried her up the dark stairs was a stranger of whose existence she had not dreamed. and now, through she tried to make herself hate him, tried to be indignant, she could not. he had humbled her, hurt her, used her brutally through a wild mad night and she had gloried in it.

"oh she should be ashamed, should shrink from the very memory of the hot swirling darkness! a lady, a real lady, could never hold up her head after such a night. but, stronger than shame, was the memory of the rapture, of the ecstasy of surrender..."

[Danik 2016]

I loved this last post, bounty. It doesn't show only the essential battle of power and desire between the two, it also shows how the convention of "being a lady" tends to interfere even in the moment of surrender.
Have you ever read the play "Who is afraid of Virginia Woolf?" by Edward Albee? Though the protagonists are a very different kind of people there love story is sustained by they hurting each other.

[bounty]

I have the play danik, but haven't read it yet.

to the very point of what youre saying though, you must hunt up the song by brad paisley and demi Lovato called without a fight.

im also reminded of a controversial sex/rape scene from the movie a history of violence. it stars viggo mortensen and maria bello as a married couple. he used to be a bad guy, now he's not anymore, but his past caught up to him, and maria takes major offense at the deception. if I remember rightly, she slaps him, and walks away up the stairs, he goes after her and grabs her ankle, she kicks at him, he subdues her and before you know it....

you might be able to find the scene online somewhere.

I think I shared this quote before. it seems timely to share it again:

“He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”

[bounty]

People seem to miss the essential point of the novel. The exceptional thing is that it shows a war through the eyes of the losers, the South. It gives insight in the Civil War, the abolition and the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. I would call it one of the greatest American novels.

Calling it a soap is ridiculous. It's better to compare it to Anna Karenina. Scarlett is an antiheroin who isn't interested in the war, but only in the unreachable Ashley. Rhett is a smart opportunist who gets rich during the war and sees through Scarlett.

im onboard with the "one of the great American novels" sentiment.

and im still wondering what distinguishes a "soap" from many other written works containing human drama, or even why calling it that, if it indeed IS that, is derogatory somehow.

[Danik 2016]

I have the play danik, but haven't read it yet.

to the very point of what youre saying though, you must hunt up the song by brad paisley and demi Lovato called without a fight.

im also reminded of a controversial sex/rape scene from the movie a history of violence. it stars viggo mortensen and maria bello as a married couple. he used to be a bad guy, now he's not anymore, but his past caught up to him, and maria takes major offense at the deception. if I remember rightly, she slaps him, and walks away up the stairs, he goes after her and grabs her ankle, she kicks at him, he subdues her and before you know it....

you might be able to find the scene online somewhere.

I think I shared this quote before. it seems timely to share it again:

“He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”
Maybe you take a look at it sometimes. It is very enlightening as to what deep love coupled with frustration can lead.
I´ll hunt for the song, thanks for the tip also for the film scene.

Sexism is a bad reality here in Brazil. Almost every day one reads in the news about raped women or good looking young women killed usually by their former partners or boyfriends, who don´t accept the end of the relationship. It´s the idea of possession that is still very strong even at a time when women are getting financially and emotionally independent.

But in the case of Scarlett and Rhett there is an ambiguity, there is desire going against convention even as they are married( the woman has to behave like a lady and the man as a gentleman even in an intimate situation.

Ithink the quote applies better to Rhett Than to boring Frank Kennedy.

[Danik 2016]

im onboard with the "one of the great American novels" sentiment.

and im still wondering what distinguishes a "soap" from many other written works containing human drama, or even why calling it that, if it indeed IS that, is derogatory somehow.

"Wordeater" is now active on my other forum. I mainly agree with his/her opinion though I wouldn´t compare it to Anna Karenina.

As for the "soapy' I am a great fan of it. What happens with it IMO, is that it is commercially dependence on audience and propaganda. Most "soapys" here in Brazil are so called "open products". Differently as happens with the series, they can be changed according to the wish of their audience while they still are produced. Therefore they are considered a commercial and not an artistic product. In spite of it, we have had some very good soap operas which beside the standard love story address social, cultural and historical problems. You see, in a country, where most people watch TV but don´t read books, they somehow replace the written novel.

[bounty]

i'll be through with gone with the wind soon and will be looking for something else to read. I just started an elvis Presley biography but I don't like to just read non-fiction, so maybe i'll hunt up woolf. it might be a challenge to find though. all my paperback fiction books are roughly alphabetized and in plain view but I haven't been as consistent with drama. I think I have them in 3 different places maybe and I cant remember the last time I even saw that one.

i'll look forward to hearing what you think of the song (and the movie scene too). as an aside, demi Lovato kills it on some of the high notes near the end, in the 2:50 to 3:30ish range.

if you like it---a lesser version of the same sentiment can be found in luke bryan's kiss tomorrow goodbye.

its sad to hear such things. I understand in the past, although maybe it still goes on to an extent, muslim men would throw acid in women's faces.

oh for sure Rhett, not frank. in fact, I think I posted this earlier, its frank's acquiescence to scarlett's willfulness that paradoxically causes her to have contempt for him.

maybe this is somewhat related to the notion of women liking the "bad boy."

[Danik 2016]

Seems you have got a bit tired of Scarlett O' Hara's adventures, Bounty. It´s an extensive book after all.
I´ll look for the song and the play later. I have to do things slowly these days (bad eyesight).

The problem with the "bad boys" as you call them, I think, is that they don´t have the word "danger" written on their forehead. Of course, there are "bad girls" too. But there are less lethal issues because of the difference in physical strenght.

[bounty]

ive been drawing out the ending danik by reading less gone with the wind and more elvis Presley, but it just came to me today that I actually have scarlett with is a sequel written in 1991 by Alexandra ripley.

no pressure at all, but if I read it sometime in the near future, and open back up the thread here, would you be interested to join in again?

I think "bad boys" do have danger written all over them. there are three prevailing theories as to why women still date them. one is, they are attracted to danger. another is that they lack self respect and are attracted to men who will treat them badly. another is that their mothering instinct kicks in with men who need fixing.

meanwhile, scarlett's pregnant again!

[Danik 2016]

I sure would, even if I haven't read the book. I'm rather curious what this new author would add to the story.
The case with Scarlett is that she denies the attraction. At some level she trusts Rhett more than Ashley, because it is him she calls in when she needs help.
Some men are also attracted to bad girls. I think, as you say, danger becomes a challenge.

Now comes an important part of the story.
Speaking of pregnant, how is Spritzer?

[Sancho]

I have a coworker who’s been through a string of “bad boys”. I asked her once why she keeps doing that to herself. Her reply was - well … it usually doesn’t end well, but at least it’s not boring.

[bounty]

well danik, on your "important part of the story" sentiment!

a lot has happened in the book since I was least here---still slowly drawing out the ending (I only have 12ish pages left).

scarlett had a miscarriage, bonnie was killed in a riding accident, and melanie either just died or is about to---holy cow!

I was waffling quite a bit on watching the movie, now im sure i'll put it off for quite awhile. way too much sadness...

and to that point danik---maybe scarlett gives the reader a shot at happy ending redemption.

on the topic of redemption---the movie forrest gump is about a lot of things, but I think the bestest thing its about is how forrest's
dutifulness and steadfast love redeems lieutenant dan, and more importantly, jenny. it takes melanie being on her deathbed for scarlett to finally realize what a rock melanie has been in her life, and how foolish she has been to love Ashley, and to not give herself to Rhett as she could have/should have.

that all seems like a lead-in to the famous "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" utterance...

[bounty]

I appreciate your asking about spritzer, thank you. she's really good. its been about a month now that ive stopped feeding the birds so ive let her journey back outside. she knows she's not "captive" really as she comes and goes dependent on the weather and her desire to eat. she hasn't spent the night outside yet but i suspect that'll probably happen sometime soon. she loves having her face and especially her neck and chin scratched, and she spends some time every day sitting on my lap either getting petted, or napping. i have a few fake mouse toys she enjoys playing with, as well as the random pieces of bark laying around the floor. she cracks me up---if I bend down towards the floor she knows im going to slide something at her and she'll run around to hide herself behind something so she can pounce on it seemingly unawares. she's a really good goalie and lightening fast.on weekends she gets a special food treat, and every day she gets a little treat of vanilla pedia-sure that she laps right up. today I just got a flea collar for her---she's really sensitive to chemical smells so im hoping I can get it on her without her freaking out and running away.

[bounty]

I love this book too and read it when I was 12. I think that it has some significance, but it really is a soap opera. It's foolish it even suggest comparing it to Tolstoy.

I don't think ive replied to this one yet...

another 12yr old reading this whoppin' big book! even though i wouldn't call gone with the wind "chick lot" I still plan to check everyone's gender.

I know that all of Tolstoy isn't war and peace but I read that book last year, and its similar in scope so i'll use that for commentary. one huge difference between the two is that the former was frequently boring and tedious. there was also a ton of writing that went on that pretty much did nothing to forward the story. for my taste, there were also too many characters being written about.

in short, if war and peace was lots more like gone with the wind it would have been enjoyable as opposed to a chore. im glad I read it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

maybe i'll give anna Karenina a shot someday...

[Danik 2016]

well danik, on your "important part of the story" sentiment!

a lot has happened in the book since I was least here---still slowly drawing out the ending (I only have 12ish pages left).

scarlett had a miscarriage, bonnie was killed in a riding accident, and melanie either just died or is about to---holy cow!

I was waffling quite a bit on watching the movie, now im sure i'll put it off for quite awhile. way too much sadness...

and to that point danik---maybe scarlett gives the reader a shot at happy ending redemption.

on the topic of redemption---the movie forrest gump is about a lot of things, but I think the bestest thing its about is how forrest's
dutifulness and steadfast love redeems lieutenant dan, and more importantly, jenny. it takes melanie being on her deathbed for scarlett to finally realize what a rock melanie has been in her life, and how foolish she has been to love Ashley, and to not give herself to Rhett as she could have/should have.

that all seems like a lead-in to the famous "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" utterance...

Well, you have still 12 pages left! I didn´t remember about the illness of Melanie, thanks for reminding me.

[Danik 2016]

I appreciate your asking about spritzer, thank you. she's really good. its been about a month now that ive stopped feeding the birds so ive let her journey back outside. she knows she's not "captive" really as she comes and goes dependent on the weather and her desire to eat. she hasn't spent the night outside yet but i suspect that'll probably happen sometime soon. she loves having her face and especially her neck and chin scratched, and she spends some time every day sitting on my lap either getting petted, or napping. i have a few fake mouse toys she enjoys playing with, as well as the random pieces of bark laying around the floor. she cracks me up---if I bend down towards the floor she knows im going to slide something at her and she'll run around to hide herself behind something so she can pounce on it seemingly unawares. she's a really good goalie and lightening fast.on weekends she gets a special food treat, and every day she gets a little treat of vanilla pedia-sure that she laps right up. today I just got a flea collar for her---she's really sensitive to chemical smells so im hoping I can get it on her without her freaking out and running away.

"she hasn't spent the night outside yet but i suspect that'll probably happen sometime soon. she loves having her face and especially her neck and chin scratched, and she spends some time every day sitting on my lap either getting petted, or napping. i have a few fake mouse toys she enjoys playing with, as well as the random pieces of bark laying around the floor. she cracks me up---if I bend down towards the floor she knows im going to slide something at her and she'll run around to hide herself behind something so she can pounce on it seemingly unawares. she's a really good goalie and lightening fast.on weekends she gets a special food treat, and every day she gets a little treat of vanilla pedia-sure that she laps right up. today I just got a flea collar for her---she's really sensitive to chemical smells so im hoping I can get it on her without her freaking out and running away."

Do you expect that with all this vip treatment this cat will vanish easily out of your life? I am only a bit apprehensive about this flea collar. A free cat can easily get so easily tangled up with it while climbing, with no one near to help. One of my cats had one but she had to stay at home while using it.

[bounty]

I think she'll be okay danik. I have to have a collar on her already so I have something to attach bells too. otherwise she'd be killing things all the time. so far so good in that regard.

I finished the book the night of my last post.

at least two things come to mind that are worth talking about. I have a quote that i'll have to hunt up later that's germane to one of my points---it was tough to see scarlett be somewhat repenting, and have Rhett respond to her the way he did (even though I knew it was coming). was Rhett justified?

its been fun as I went along in the book trying to figure out the relationship between the goings-on in the story, and the title. that is, why is the book called what it is? what do you think?

[Danik 2016]

Bells, oh my! But I get your point,Bounty. You are a good ambientalist.


Congrats for finishing the novel. I thing the thing that started killing definitively his love for Scarlett, was Bonnie. First he channelled all his love to her and then she died very soon in a very tragic way.And both parents accuse each other. So, when he gives that answer to Scarlett, it sounds genuine, he doesn't care for her any more.There was some inversion of roles at the end with Scarlett now caring for Rhett and Rhett being indifferent.

The title is wonderful. If you take the first scene, the tableaux on Tara of the rich farmers of the south, and the last scene with Scarlett on the deserted farm, you can see that for them a whole era has come to an end, has Gone with the Wind.

[bounty]

im a little bummed its over danik. I really enjoyed Margaret Mitchell's writing.

yes, those are the reasons Rhett would give---but was he right to leave scarlett?

I think your title exposition is insightful. makes you wonder if the author wrote the book first, and then came up with the title, or if she started with it and had a feeling she knew how the story was going to end.

[Danik 2016]

Yes. It sure takes some time to get over its intensity. It was the author's world that was crumbling down. And it's US history.

[bounty]

ah but danik---was Rhett justified in leaving scarlett?

I have a quote I like that is fitting for the occasion: "a relationship is not about finding peace by being with another human being. it is about making a commitment to maintain contact and not run away when your partner is a mirror for the hardness in your heart."

[spikepipsqueak]

"a relationship is not about finding peace by being with another human being. it is about making a commitment to maintain contact and not run away when your partner is a mirror for the hardness in your heart."

Yes. Yes. Yes. ^^^

I've been watching a wonderful Irish TV series called Normal People which has made me think of both GWTW and you.

Not a direct parallel, but in many ways this is a modern equivalent of the love story component. Both sides unwilling to commit and loving so much as to be unwilling to make demands.

I think in both stories there are strong characters on each side unwilling to reveal their mushy core for fear of having it squashed, or worse, mocked. In each case they are losers thereby.

I've read the sequel. Worth a read but not quite up to Margaret Mitchell's standard. I think I can say without being too much of a spoiler that Scarlett grows and mellows.

[bounty]

spike---if you think you'll be around to join in on the conversation, I could read the sequel and continue on with the thread here...

[Danik 2016]

ah but danik---was Rhett justified in leaving scarlett?

I have a quote I like that is fitting for the occasion: "a relationship is not about finding peace by being with another human being. it is about making a commitment to maintain contact and not run away when your partner is a mirror for the hardness in your heart."
Sorry, bounty, missed that quote, thought the thread had gone to sleep.
It's a good quote, but people don't necessarily stay together for good reasons. Sometimes it's the habit that keeps them together.
In the case of Rhett and Scarlett they somehow switched roles
Scarlett fell in love with Rhett, while he grew indifferent to her.
Were they right to separate?It's difficult to say. They certainly weren't a conventional couple.

[bounty]

ah danik, should I let you off the hook that easily?? subsequent generations of litnet readers will be looking at our posts and wondering about your answer!

[Danik 2016]

I don´t quite know what to answer now. As for subsequent generations of litnetters, I just read in the German forum that older posts are deleted in order not to overload the server. Each user has a right to 500 living comments (please, Germans love organization) I should love to know how this is here.

[bounty]

i don't know how long the sites been in existence but i regularly see threads from back in the 2000s. i joined in 2008.

just took a peek around and see the site lists the copyright as starting in 2000.

[spikepipsqueak]

spike---if you think you'll be around to join in on the conversation, I could read the sequel and continue on with the thread here...

You've probably noticed I only get here sporadically, but if you're thinking of reading the sequel I could take it out of the street library where I donated it and reread.

We could conduct an extended discussion, if you're on. Made lengthier because I'm about to set off travelling.

[bounty]

i just started reading Stephen king's misery spike and i'll probably be in that for 2-3 weeks. does a delay work better for reading scarlett?

also, there is another book out there called Rhett butler's people. it's supposed to be gone with the wind from Rhett's perspective, which is a pretty nifty idea. that'd be a run read too.

[hellsapoppin]

Am on Ch 6 where Rhett Butler is introduced. Once again, I was struck by a possible allusion to the oft repeated Jewish Question.

All throughout the book repeated stereotypical matters are raised. For example, Gerald O'Hara is presented as a stereotype Irishman which predilection for the spirits, his love of horses, his fascination with anything green colored, his repeated longings for the old country, his patriarchal tyranny over his daughters, his quick temper and fisticuffs, etc. Then there is Mammy with endless repetition of the dreaded N word, there are "d@rkies" who rated just above them, and then there are "cr@ckers" and at the bottom of the barrel there are "white tr@sh".

Butler is a big man described as having a large forehead, hook nose, thick lips, and dark skinned ~ terms used to denote stereotypical Jews in the past. He is described as "not received" (unwelcome) and is said to be a seducer of women, a wealthy scion exiled from his family (Wandering Jew?), from Charleston, SC. He is manipulative, a trouble maker, wealthy, enterprising, a blockade runner & smuggler. Could all this mean that the writer was saying that he was a stereotypical Jew?

In 1862 virulent Jew hater General Benjamin Butler* (hmmm ~ Butler), a personal acquaintance of President Lincoln prosecuted several Jewish blockade runners and smugglers who led a corrupt operation from NYC to of all places Charleston, SC (Rhett's home town). While some have said that Rhett was based on a corrupt Confederate named Trenholm** (a wine importer, banker, and maritime operator), the linkage to stereotype Jews seem more than coincidental.

I tried to find some source online to see if this has been discussed previously but perhaps someone else may know if Mitchell intended to draw such parallels.




sources:

* https://www.shapell.org/manuscript/antisemitic-civil-war-general-benjamin-butler-jews-betrayed-savior/

** https://shipwrecks.com/discovery_of_the_real_rhett_butler/

[bounty]

i found this, which is consistent and is more or less complementary with your second link, and that you might still enjoy:

https://columbiametro.com/article/a-real-life-adventure-hero/

the word "stereotype" is interesting---the argument is that it comes from a human need to categorize and simplify, which I can agree with---and that its all a first step in discrimination and ethnic/racial bias, which I don't necessarily agree with.

anyway---are you liking the book?

[hellsapoppin]

i found this, which is consistent and is more or less complementary with your second link, and that you might still enjoy:

https://columbiametro.com/article/a-real-life-adventure-hero/

the word "stereotype" is interesting---the argument is that it comes from a human need to categorize and simplify, which I can agree with---and that its all a first step in discrimination and ethnic/racial bias, which I don't necessarily agree with.

anyway---are you liking the book?



EXCELLENT article! Thanks for posting the link which should be read by all.

Yes, I agree 100% with your highly insightful definition of stereotype.

As for the book, indeed, I am enjoying. Am so sorry now that I had not joined in other exchange a little while back. My volume was a reprint from 1936 - the pages are dingy but still readable. I understand those sequels are quite good. Perhaps some day I'll get to them.

Haven't watched the movie in many, many moons. But I'm sure I'll watch it again some day as I was always quite a fan of extraordinarily beautiful Olivia de Havilland.

BTW, what did you think of the movie?

[bounty]

im glad you liked the article. its interesting that folks do that kinda work.

I once knew a man who had been friends with a guy who had been friends with zane grey, and that man (the one in the middle there) was the basis for a character in one of grey's books.

I decided to not watch the movie and for some reason its still not tempting me. could be the length of it, could be that I liked the book so much that I wanted to leave it at that.

in terms of your girl olivia---I thought "melanie" was a great character in the book.

[hellsapoppin]

Just a bit more on Butler ~ he was also described in Ch 8 as "swarthy and piratical" looking. In those days as part of the then existing stereotype, Jews were said to be the greatest pirates of the old days. Will continue to look for any further descriptions of him in the narrative.

Melanie, indeed, appears to be a great character. But, so far, the most interesting character in the Hamilton family is Uncle Peter - a slave who appears to be in command of the household.

[hellsapoppin]

@bounty and others ...


I hope this is not a dumb question but I'll give it a go anyways:

In this or in the dormant threads about GWTW did the issue of Is this a racist novel? come up? was there a consensus one way or the other?

I know that when the novel was re-issued not too long ago, there was an added advisory which suggested that it may have been so, was full of objectionable and out dated terms, and may have suggested some benign views of slavery, of stereotypes, and of segregation. That one should proceed with caution if they are about to embark on reading it.

Am up to Ch 11 and, so far, cannot honestly say that I find it racist. Yes, it does reflect some rather harsh, inhuman, demeaning, and down right stupid aspects of American life back in that era. But, so far, I cannot honestly say that Mitchell had written an apologia for all those terrible conditions. Had she defended any such thing, had she said that this is the way it should be today, tomorrow, and forever, that that d@mned be the one who dares object to this view, then I'd say it was racist. Again, so far, I have not seen any such elements. If there were any please point them out to me.

[bounty]

i haven't looked at any other threads on the book poppin, but when I resurrected this one, danik joined in and some of our interactions were about the question you raised. you might enjoy peeking back through those.

a fun question for you---if uncle peter is an interesting character, what does that say then in terms of "benign views of slavery?" (something else danik and I talked about a little).

a similar question can probably be asked about mammy.

[hellsapoppin]

I did thumb through the early posts but did not find any concrete determination or consensus on the issue I raised. Suffice it to say no on here found it rampantly racist which is my view (for now).

Much of the exchange dealt with Miss Scarlett which is understandable since she is the main character. But before I discuss her, I'd like to add just a bit more about Rhett Butler:

Again, he was described as "swarthy" (dark skinned). Then the narrative went into his industry which was blockade running. He dealt in wines, textiles, cargo, and other commodities that could be used in war. What struck me was the segment in which he was said to communicate quite readily with women about (of all things!) women's garments including under garments. Some women felt uncomfortable discussing this with him but he felt quite as ease on the subject. This is among the other Jewish stereotypes -- an obsession with women's under clothes*! And, of course, as we discussed in Maggie, A Girl of the Streets the garment industry was almost entirely controlled by Jews in that era.

Thus, once again I am led to conclude that Butler may well have been an example of a Jewish stereotype.





*https://shorturl.at/blnyB

[hellsapoppin]

In the narrative, writer Mitchell reveals that proper Southern gentlemen referred to ladies by their first names preceded by the title Miss. Frankly, I thought that this was a practice done only in the Northeast. I grew up that way referring to young ladies as Miss _______ followed by the first name. It was always (as in the book) a sign of respect.


One post above indicated that the poster felt she was not interested in the war. I disagree. In fact, she was quite interested in it. While she was initially bored and disgusted with talk of war, she later became angered that there were still men in the South of draft age who had not gone into combat. Then it says that she hoped the war would go on longer in the hope the South would win. She wants men to sacrifice for her despite all the moans and groans in the hospital she works in. Wow - what a sexist! On top of all that she is narcissistic, terribly shallow, totally indifferent to the pains others may be suffering, and more.

Miss Scarlett is very enterprising and eventually amasses considerable capital. This was rather unusual for the era. But her selfishness and obsessive character speaks badly for her. While defo being a very compelling person, a feminist model she is not. But then, given the times and the negative outlook of the era and the people therein, we would be hard pressed to find much to be admired in the book's many interesting characters.

[hellsapoppin]

Quote:

There is never but one reason for war. And that is money.


~Captain Rhett Butler



Ch 12, page 231



That remains true even unto this day.

[bounty]

to the point of defining terms---if theres a difference between a "racist book" and a book that has racism in it, we'd have to figure that out.

on another level, the term racism has been so overused and overapplied as to be almost meaningless, so the word itself would need some clarification.

I remember looking at scarlett as a sort of feminist precursor. she's full of traits some modern day feminists might admire, while rejecting other aspects of her.

I was actually surprised as concerns her when I read the book---I went in thinking she was going to be a tremendously admirable character, and in some ways she was, but on the whole, there was way too much about her that wasn't commendable.

im from the northeast poppin and spent most of my life here. I didn't grow up with the "miss ___" salutation though. I wonder if it was a generational thing, or maybe just very parochial. ive often associated with the south---and heck, I have to wonder now how much of that comes from how "miss scarlett" has infiltrated the popular lexicon. i wonder if maybe it shows up in some old northeast literature.

to ascribe or reduce war to a matter of financial gain is to discount the fallen nature of man as well as the need for self-defense, the execution of justice, and the preservation of liberty.

[hellsapoppin]

^ nice comment


Haven't gotten to it as of yet but IIRC from past accounts, the KKK was presented as being heroes (at least to some extent) in the book. I believe that this was the principle reason why some called it racist.

Yes, 'Miss' is, I suppose a generational thing. Interestingly, in the multi tenement building where I live, we used to have many seniors and some of the older ladies would refer to each other as Miss _____ (first name). Again, I don't see that anymore.

Ashley Wilkes's wife Melanie (née Hamilton) said war was caused by prejudices. Both Ashley and Butler said the war was a lost cause, nothing honorable about it. Interestingly, despite their bravery and honesty, they were viewed as "cowards" by some of those Confederate cynics. Very interesting dialog among them.

The one thing that stood out in the dialog that I have seen (or not seen) thus far is the fact that no one appears to have suggested that the war was about the promotion of slavery because (allegedly) it was a wholesome, god ordained, institution. Or, if it was said to be that way, I've missed it.

[hellsapoppin]

Tara's Theme was used in the old "Million Dollar Movie" in NYC back in the day:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPTQRmwCOWs


What memories it brings back to me and the commentators there.

[bounty]

one of the really nifty things about music isn't it poppin, how it can elicit memories.

what youre writing is reminding me of something ive said to Sancho a few different times at least---the topics would make for great essays or masters thesis studies in English.

you might enjoy this poppin. ive watched it a few times now and continue to find it worthwhile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXCAAZ8_fCM

[hellsapoppin]

^ Thanks for that excellent link.



I recently attended two high school baseball games and was quite pleased to see that students are still reading Brothers Karamazov and Huckleberry Finn. As we discussed previously, Dostoyevsky was a rabid anti Semite and Twain has been falsely accused of racism. Because of this, there have been efforts to censor these writings. But despite the unwarranted attacks upon these books by unknowing cynics, both are still being read with great interest and fervency. As an evolving society we simply cannot afford to close our eyes, hearts, and minds to the events of the past as we would lose far more than we could possibly gain by setting it all aside.

Years ago I was a member of an American history web forum which is now inactive. We would do a group reading of an American history book without any limitations on the subjects discussed. Whenever I made my concluding remarks on the book I would preface it with PAST IS PROLOGUE. This because indeed, there is nothing new under the sun. We must always keep an open mind to what has happened in the past and we must continue to glean any and all lessons that we can from those events.

[hellsapoppin]

With all that in mind, how we look at things change. As an example, when have you ever seen the word "sexist" used against Miss Scarlett? Despite the fact that such a term is clearly warranted, I never have seen that word against her until I used the term. Previously, I mentioned that she declared that she wished the war would go on longer in the hope that the South would win. She resented the fact that young men of draft age had not enlisted and were not fighting. When Atlanta was being abandoned as the Rebs were retreating, she got angry that they didn't stand up and fight to the death. When Miss Melly got sick during her pregnancy she goes hysterical, pushes everybody around, runs into the encampment used by sick/injured reb forces, and demands that Dr Meade drop what he's doing in order to help her sister in law. In her twisted sexist little mind, the life of one woman is of greater importance than those 100+ men who were dying and in great agony - all of whom had been sacrificing for her and her archaic, privileged old South lifestyle.* Somehow, she feels these men are of lower value than slaves as not only must they work for her good, they must DIE for her good as well. She is the worse sexist anywhere.

Only in the modern era would you see her described in such a fashion. And she well deserves such a designation. Thus, we learn from the past and our views evolve. That is one of the biggest reasons why we must not censor.







*thereafter she demands that Captain Butler bail her out of the situation by using a carriage to take her away - she hates his guts but does not hesitate to use him when convenient. She never stop using people, especially men in order to get her way.

[bounty]

just a quickie so I don't get too far behind poppin---I think your description above of scarlett is more fittingly described as "self-serving."

its also somewhat consistent with traditional gender roles. it is a mans job to protect, and fight if necessary, and its a woman's job to create the home so to speak.

one could argue that traditional gender roles are "sexist" but I would call that a more nuanced (if not bastardization) of the word.

[hellsapoppin]

bastardization


Interesting choice of words. Re proper roles, it will be recalled that Scarlett and her crowd are all professing Christians (she makes repeated avowals like "as God is my witness"). As such they are required to love everyone, to turn the other cheek, to self sacrifice for everyone including their enemies, and be at peace with all men. This is something she and them do not adhere to. Scarlett is the only one who expects the Rebs to die for her. None of the other women do.

Scarlett shoots a Yankee trooper who had put his gun into his belt and posed no threat to her. This was cold blooded murder. She proceeds to discard the body as if it was a lump of turds. Then when the war was clearly a lost cause, she still persists that Rebs continue to fight to death rather than retreat. This is a demand that is beyond protection, it is downright suicide. Thus, she continues to show that she is willing to have others sacrificed for her good. Not merely for her "protection". After hostilities have ceased and the war was over, ragged Rebs start to march home with many starving, dying of thirst or because of wounds - they stop by the mansion at Tara seeking some comfort. Scarlett damns the old southern culture of "hospitality" where she is required to give them at least some food and comfort. These men sacrificed for her and she is still tortured in her mind over having to lift a finger in their favor! By contrast, Melly is only too happy to give the returning Rebs aid and comfort as she believes Northern households are doing the same for Rebs and Yanks returning from combat.

Bottom line is the term "sexist" is not bastardization. It is appropriate as she is not merely succumbing to traditional southern roles. She is not looking for men to exercising their traditional roles as protectors. She expects them to commit suicide for her and is exploiting them for her selfish good.

[hellsapoppin]

Am now up to about page 530 and have been looking for passages that may be construed as "racist". Up to now I have not found any which may have declared that slavery was somehow a "good" thing or God ordained. True, Mitchell fails to show its inherent evil and that it was antithetical to biblical teaching. For example, those of you who have read the bible know that it teaches "he who steals a man, enslaves him, or attempt to sell him shall be put to death" ~ Exodus 21:16. The slave trade existed because innocents were kidnapped in Africa and forced into slavery. Because of that, those who practiced this were to be executed according to biblical teaching. Again, while she did not point this out, thus far in my reading, she did not make any blatant declaration that it was a good thing.

But there is this: when the Freedmen's Bureau and the Republican party started to take over in Georgia, she wrote that as part of their campaign they "kept the Negroes stirred up with tales of cruelty perpetrated by the whites and, in a section long famed for the affectionate relations between slaves and slave owners, hate and suspicion began to grow." {page 522} Hmmm. Up to that time Scarlett bemoaned the fact that slaves were abandoning the region and fleeing with Yankee troops. That because of this she could no longer find field hands to do the heavy farm work. That in fact some of the overseers were now emerging as controllers in some of the mansions of the (former) slave owners. If the ex slaves had been so happy in their submissive roles, why were they abandoning the plantations in such droves? Obviously, none were happy in these demeaning roles. Freedom was their choice as is to be expected by anyone with even the slightest degree of common sense.

Thus far, unless I am missing something, this appears to be the only passage where Mitchell makes some form of apologia for slavery. I will continue to look for other passages that may be interpreted that way and welcome any other excerpts from others that may illustrate this.

[bounty]

if you start with the premise that men going to war and women being in charge of the home isn't sexist, then I don't know how the term becomes appropriately applicable just because scarlett wants more from the men (fighting a suicide mission) than others might want. we are only talking about a change in degree here, not a change in kind.

if you start with the premise that men going to war and women being charge of the home IS sexist, then I would call THAT a bastardization of the term.

one tough thing poppin, and I mean this gently, is your understanding of the Christian faith doesn't seem to be as wide or deep as it needs to be to stay out of trouble with your interpretation of it.

we get at least some of our constitution and therefore modern law, from john locke. one of lockes positions as concerns our property (especially meaning our home) is that we are justified in killing home invaders. its likely this view predated locke. either way it forms the basis in the castle doctine vs duty to retreat arguments we have going on at the state level to this day.

we are, it seems, at least in some agreement that scarlett is very self-serving. I would add to that though, her compassion or lack of compassion isn't gendered per se, its rather just very personal.

[hellsapoppin]

if you start with the premise that men going to war and women being charge of the home IS sexist, then I would call THAT a bastardization of the term


Well, I didn't. So by your standards that let's me off the hook.

As for understanding the bible, it is superior to that of most preachers. If you find anything wrong with my interpretation, show me where it is and I will gladly answer it. So far you have criticized, but you have not actually pointed to any deficiency in the subject. I may have mentioned before that my jurisprudence paper in law school dealt with biblical law and Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice. A Jewish law professor in my school told me it was the finest writing he had ever seen on the subject. So go ahead - show me these alleged "deficiencies". You will have an uphill battle the likes of which you've never imagined before.


Re John Locke, he was a Christian adhering to the concept of sola Scriptura. In fact, he was a theologian whose teachings greatly influenced the anti slavery movement in England. The bible teaches that slavery was permissible as vanquishment in war and when one contracted oneself into slavery because of debt. This was affirmed by Locke. However, the crime of man stealing was condemned in Exodus 21:16 and 1 Tim 1:10. Thus, the slave trade as practiced in the Confederacy was anti biblical. This is why contrary to certain mythic belief, Locke worked AGAINST slavery:

Locke actively worked to undermine slavery in Virginia while heading a Board of Trade created by William of Orange following the Glorious Revolution. He specifically attacked colonial policy granting land to slave owners and encouraged the baptism and Christian education of the children of enslaved Africans to undercut a major justification of slavery—that they were heathens who possessed no rights.[48] In his Two Treatises of Government, Locke provided a justification for slavery that could never be met, thus rendering invalid all forms of slavery that existed. Moreover, because slavery is invalid, there is a moral injunction to try to throw off and escape from it.

source: Wiki



Bottom line, if you want to excuse slavery or provide some from of rationale for the way it was practiced in the south, Locke is NOT the person whose teachings you want to invoke.

[hellsapoppin]

"kept the Negroes stirred up with tales of cruelty perpetrated by the whites and, in a section long famed for the affectionate relations between slaves and slave owners, hate and suspicion began to grow."


I should add some amplification on this: at the time Uncle Tom's Cabin ((1852) was written many anti-abolitionist novels were written to counter its teachings on the inhumanity of slavery. These delusional writings actually taught that slavery was a good thing, that it taught Christianity and civilization to enslaved blacks. That slavery was god ordained (despite the bible's teachings) and that one should be happy to be enslaved. Many of these ridiculous stories actually taught that slaves were happy to be that way. That after the Civil War, many blacks went back to their former owners and begged to be enslaved again!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Plantersbride.jpg/267px-Plantersbride.jpg



Over the years critics have equated GWTW with these blatantly racist and pro slavery writings which were called plantation genre. Except for that quote above, I have not seen any blatant call for or attempted justification of slavery in the novel. But that line above does raise an alarm and I will continue to search for more such misguided ideas in the book.

[Danik 2016]

Just read the arguments of both of you Poppins and Bounty and I am fascinated by the variety and the development of the arguments.
However I feel I have to at least partly defend poor Scarlett. Trying to be consistent albeit not as systematic as Poppins, here are just some thoughts:

I think one interesting factor about Scarlett is how the character blends certain traditional values with a need of escape from them.
Traditional values taught Scarlett that women were born to conquer and marry men and that men have to serve women (at least during their wooing time). Being a willful lady Scarlett has learned to use men much more than it would be acceptable for a young
unmarried girl. To complete this she has several romantic notions of what a woman should expect of a man.

With the disgrace of her family and the breaking out of war all this is potencialized. Scarlett sets out to save herself and the people that are close to her by doing what she does best: make men serve her and marry some of them for practical purposes and financial purposes, as she wasn't educated to work. Her strength lies in wanting to influence her destiny actively, but it's there also that she shocs other people because she doesn't have the least consideration for them.
Scarlett is definitely not a nice person, but she has a sort of strength. She uses the weapons she has gotten to attain her goals.
As for sexist, she has got a sexist education, but the bossy part of her wants more power than the traditional sexist female role allows.

[hellsapoppin]

As for sexist, she has got a sexist education, but the bossy part of her wants more power than the traditional sexist female role allows.


It's difficult not to call her a sexist. After all her hatred for Captain Butler, she resolves to marry him in order to get his money. She does not give a single thought for his welfare, only for her own. She'll do anything for her selfish good. She even considers stealing Ashley from her vulnerable and ailing sister. This despite her Christian upbringing which forbids coveting thy neighbor's spouse or goods. In truth, there probably isn't a more wicked Jezebel in all of literature than she is. How can anyone deny that she is a self serving, selfish, wicked user of people (especially of men)? On top of all that she is a murderer!

One thing to bear in mind is that sexism is not a one way street. Women can be just as guilty of this as men:
https://www.quora.com/Is-sexism-just-one-directional-or-can-women-be-sexist-too

Perhaps all that should clear the air as to whether the term is appropriate for Scarlett.

[hellsapoppin]

Lest I forget, Scarlett is also a blatant racist:


How dared they laugh, the black apes! How dared they grin at her, Scarlett O'Hara of Tara! She'd like to have them all whipped until the blood ran down their backs. What devils the Yankees were to set them free, free to jeer at white people!


freedom “just ruined the darkies”

[hellsapoppin]

p 639 ~ Scarlett agreed ... "Free darkies are certainly worthless ... you can't depend on darkies anymore ... The more I see of emancipation the more criminal I think it is. It's just ruined the darkies."

So many racist comments by her all throughout the book. Shame, shame.

[bounty]

"Bottom line, if you want to excuse slavery or provide some from of rationale for the way it was practiced in the south, Locke is NOT the person whose teachings you want to invoke.

maybe i am unjustly mingling posts here, but I referenced locke directly in reference to scarlett killing the yankee soldier, completely independent of slavery.

"It's difficult not to call her a sexist. After all her hatred for Captain Butler, she resolves to marry him in order to get his money. She does not give a single thought for his welfare, only for her own. She'll do anything for her selfish good."

right, that makes her self-interested and maybe a gold-digger, not a sexist. youre describing her relationship with one individual, which is indicative of her dynamic of that one individual, not the entirety of men. and the question of traditional sex-roles is still in the mix.

"If you find anything wrong with my interpretation, show me where it is and I will gladly answer it. So far you have criticized, but you have not actually pointed to any deficiency in the subject."

a small for instance: you claim scarlett is a "professing Christian" and your evidence of that is her use of the phrase "as god is my witness." that is not the sine qua non of Christianity. its not even necessarily an acknowledgement of god's existence. even all the other literary references that include "god" in the text are not evidence of Christianity.

there isn't one place in the book where the main characters profess to be Christians.

I think the better way to approach the question is to ask, can I tell by anyone's words, thoughts and deeds that they are indeed Christian?

that said however, a Christian life characterized by "self-sacrifice, loving everyone, and turning the other cheek" is not negated by expecting soldiers to die for their country, or for that matter, going to war and killing the enemy.

"...and be at peace with all men." there is no real biblical admonition for that as you have written it.

you did similar things in the Dostoevsky conversation and another place or two. while I cannot recollect specific instances, I do recollect being left with the general impression.

"You will have an uphill battle the likes of which you've never imagined before."

you have no idea of my past intellectual battles so making such a statement isn't good reasoning. if you were making a jest and ive taken you too literally, I apologize, but either way, its not a conversation I want to continue.

[hellsapoppin]

That's ok with me. However, it is clear that you cannot see what is so obviously stated by the author. There are repeated uses of the term "by God", "my God" the Angel Gabriel, and many other Christian images all throughout the story. Clearly your lack of knowledge about the bible and Christianity is the reason why you fail to see these obvious reference.


Perhaps this might explain some of it for you:


https://www.franciscanmedia.org/st-anthony-messenger/as-god-is-my-witness-the-catholic-roots-of-gone-with-the-wind/#google_vignette


All throughout the book Christianity is clearly VERY evident. I do not know how anyone can possibly miss the references made in that link. And there are so many more. While I do not quite agree with the conclusions reached in that link it does prove the point that there are innumerable biblical or Christian references in GWTW.

As for sexism, anyone who thinks the life of one woman is worth that of more than a hundred men is clearly sexist and delusional.

Re 'be at peace with all men' see Romans 12:18.

Your understanding of the book is falling way short of the author's clear intentions. You may want to re-read it in order to get a full appreciation and understanding of it.

[bounty]

its bad enough to be ignorant (for lack of a better word), its worse to be ignorant and confident in your ignorance, especially when you have been corrected so to speak, and its the worst to be ignorant, confident in the ignorance and condescending and insulting to boot.

congratulations, you have hit the trifecta.

[hellsapoppin]

You will need to back that up with substantive matter in order to earn any form of credibility in this regard, kiddo.

[hellsapoppin]

Quoting myself,


All throughout the book Christianity is clearly VERY evident. I do not know how anyone can possibly miss the references made in that link. And there are so many more. While I do not quite agree with the conclusions reached in that link it does prove the point that there are innumerable biblical or Christian references in GWTW.



One need only read the very opening of the book to where the book's title comes from: '' There was a land of Cavaliers ... look for it in books, for it is no more that a dream remembered, a Civilization gone with the wind.''


All thru the book Scarlett is looking for satisfaction in people, materiality, having multiple spouses, and in amassing wealth. "Money was the obsession dominating her mind." [p 668] "I want money more than anything else in the world". [p 679] All this just like Solomon in the Old Testament. In the end both characters determined that they were merely chasing after wind as "All is vanity and grasping for the wind."

Ecclesiastes 1:14; 2:11; 2:17; 2:26; 4:4; 4:6; 4:16; 6:9

[hellsapoppin]

It took a while but I finally finished reading GWTW. Very interesting read. I've looked up some sites re the question of whether or not the book was "racist". More often than not people's views on that question were based on their own skin tone. Whatever the case, I would not censor the book. As with Twain and others its message is one that pervaded society for a long period of time. For better or worse, it must not be forgotten.

The character that caught my attention or interest the most was Rhett Butler. I saw how he was repeatedly referred to in terms that reflected a Jewish stereotype though I could not find any historical links which referred to writer Mitchell as an anti Semite (her father may have been one though that isn't clear, either). There was one line that caught my attention when Scarlett muses about Ashley's poor management skills as she fretted "anyone could Jew him down on prices." Butler is again referred to as a pirate "all he needs is an ear ring and cutlass". He conducted business in Nassau which was a Caribbean haven for pirates and reportedly engaged in claim jumping. He does business in New Orleans (a place where some corrupt Jewish carpetbaggers went to) and to South Carolina [by the way, South Carolina had a Jewish carpetbagger governor in the early 1870s]. He owns a cat house (houses of sin were said to be owned almost exclusively by Jews). He asks "why not steal from the rich instead of the poor and weak?" He owns large amounts of stock in a bank and we all know the stereotype about Jewish bankers - there are numerous scenes in which he is a money lender. He dealt in the liquor industry which, again, was stereotypically thought to be Jewish controlled especially by Protestants who advocated teetotalism in that era. There are repeated references to Butler as having a dark/swarthy face and brown hands. He is called "outcast" sorta like Joseph or Moses. He played both sides of the fence and has considerable influence over Yankees in Washington as well as Confederates. Lastly, Butler was referred to as a "swine" -- this was the derogatory term used most often in Europe with my own Judio ancestors in Spain referred to as ''marranos" which means swine. Butler fit every conceivable Jewish stereotype. All this makes me wonder why this subject has not been discussed in literary or movie criticism.

Whether anyone calls it racist or not, it cannot be denied that the book is illuminating and genuinely reveals what that society was all about. So let's live in the knowledge and comfort that such times can never return. On that basis I say that, yes, it is well worth reading.

[hellsapoppin]

Less than flattering reviews of GWTW:


https://thereadersroom.org/2017/06/2...with-the-wind/



There was a reason I never before read past the first 50 or 100 pages – Scarlet is a raging evil snarky miserable ***** and I hate her. None of the other characters were particularly likable – ranging from sniveling, whiny sissies to evil, snarky *******s.
But by God did it feel good when Rhett tells her “My dear, I don’t give a damn” because neither do I.



A great ending to this book would be “And Mammy pulled so hard on Scarlett’s laces that scarlett’s organs failed and she died. El Fin.” Then you wouldn’t have to keep reading the next 500 pages or so.


-23570328502385 stars for being racist as hell




Many online commentators I came across felt that Scarlett was, somehow, a noble character. That she was self reliant and some kind of role model for other female characters. That despite her youth, emotionalism, and her willingness to hurt others, there was a great character. In all honesty I don't know how people can feel that way.

[hellsapoppin]

Less than flattering reviews of GWTW:


https://thereadersroom.org/2017/06/2...with-the-wind/



There was a reason I never before read past the first 50 or 100 pages – Scarlet is a raging evil snarky miserable b_____h and I hate her. None of the other characters were particularly likable – ranging from sniveling, whiny sissies to evil, snarky A---H-----s.
But by God did it feel good when Rhett tells her “My dear, I don’t give a damn” because neither do I.



A great ending to this book would be “And Mammy pulled so hard on Scarlett’s laces that scarlett’s organs failed and she died. El Fin.” Then you wouldn’t have to keep reading the next 500 pages or so.


-23570328502385 stars for being racist as hell




Many online commentators I came across felt that Scarlett was, somehow, a noble character. That she was self reliant and some kind of role model for other female characters. That despite her youth, emotionalism, and her willingness to hurt others, there was a great character. In all honesty I don't know how people can feel that way about her. She was racist as f___k and said,


Free darkies are certainly worthless ... you can't depend on darkies anymore ... The more I see of emancipation the more criminal I think it is.
It's just ruined the darkies.

Free issue N________s are something else and a good whipping would do some of them a lot of good."


Previously she referred to blacks as "apes". She is exploitative as F____k as well. She exploited prison labor and bemoaned the fact that she had to pay wages to the freedmen. She undercut business rivals. In her rabid quest for money she would resort to every lie imaginable. Not a very nice person at all. Indeed, a detestable one.

[hellsapoppin]

Sorry for the partial duplication - my PC froze and created this mess.

[Danik 2016]

It took a while but I finally finished reading GWTW. Very interesting read. I've looked up some sites re the question of whether or not the book was "racist". More often than not people's views on that question were based on their own skin tone. Whatever the case, I would not censor the book. As with Twain and others its message is one that pervaded society for a long period of time. For better or worse, it must not be forgotten.

The character that caught my attention or interest the most was Rhett Butler. I saw how he was repeatedly referred to in terms that reflected a Jewish stereotype though I could not find any historical links which referred to writer Mitchell as an anti Semite (her father may have been one though that isn't clear, either). There was one line that caught my attention when Scarlett muses about Ashley's poor management skills as she fretted "anyone could Jew him down on prices." Butler is again referred to as a pirate "all he needs is an ear ring and cutlass". He conducted business in Nassau which was a Caribbean haven for pirates and reportedly engaged in claim jumping. He does business in New Orleans (a place where some corrupt Jewish carpetbaggers went to) and to South Carolina [by the way, South Carolina had a Jewish carpetbagger governor in the early 1870s]. He owns a cat house (houses of sin were said to be owned almost exclusively by Jews). He asks "why not steal from the rich instead of the poor and weak?" He owns large amounts of stock in a bank and we all know the stereotype about Jewish bankers - there are numerous scenes in which he is a money lender. He dealt in the liquor industry which, again, was stereotypically thought to be Jewish controlled especially by Protestants who advocated teetotalism in that era. There are repeated references to Butler as having a dark/swarthy face and brown hands. He is called "outcast" sorta like Joseph or Moses. He played both sides of the fence and has considerable influence over Yankees in Washington as well as Confederates. Lastly, Butler was referred to as a "swine" -- this was the derogatory term used most often in Europe with my own Judio ancestors in Spain referred to as ''marranos" which means swine. Butler fit every conceivable Jewish stereotype. All this makes me wonder why this subject has not been discussed in literary or movie criticism.

Whether anyone calls it racist or not, it cannot be denied that the book is illuminating and genuinely reveals what that society was all about. So let's live in the knowledge and comfort that such times can never return. On that basis I say that, yes, it is well worth reading.
The question for me is if the stereotypes you enumerate where applied exclusively to Jews or to a more ample group. What seems clear to me,is that Mitchel wanted her protagonists to be neither good nor bad.
What caught more my attention is how Ku Klux clan is described. All the "decent " men of the south seem to belong to it.

[hellsapoppin]

Evidently the link which I posted has changed. Let's see if this works:



https://thereadersroom.org/2017/06/26/terrible-reviews-of-great-books-gone-with-the-wind/#more-13294



Indeed, it shows "Mitchell seemed to forget what the KKK actually got up to and portrays them as ‘gallant gentlemen’ which they certaintly were not." This among other things proves that the book, which was such a massive best seller, had many shortcomings.

[Sancho]

I think what modern readers choke on is not so much that it’s a racist novel, but that it’s an apologia of the southern plantation lifestyle. Hence a defense of slavery. I suppose you can take the 19th century southern planter culture and the Civil War as just a backdrop for the story, but then you’re left with just a tawdry true romance-style story.

Mitchell does sort of flip the script on the standard love story of the day. I think most readers recognize right off that Charlotte and Rhett are meant for each other, maybe they even deserve each other, but usually the adventurous woman winds up with the rube and then spends the rest of the book pining over the scoundrel. In this one she marries the scoundrel and pines over the rube. And then she breaks the scoundrel. Tough woman. She’s a survivor. I admired her in the same way I admired Captain Ahab. She’s got chutzpah.

I forget how the main characters referred to the war. In that war there are two names for everything. The Union soldiers tended to name things for a natural feature — The Battle of Bull Run. The Confederate soldiers would name the same thing for a man-made feature — The Battle of First Mannasus. It reflected what fascinated them most about the place. There’s a political element to how they referred to the war itself: The War Between the States, or The War for Union. Or as Granny Clampett described it — The War betwixt the North and the U. S. of A. The War betwixt the Gray and the Yeller. The War of Northern Aggression!

Anyway, speaking of the Jewish diaspora and how they were treated in the south, Poppin, have you heard the story of Leo Frank? In Atlanta Hartsfield Airport, on the spine betwixt B and C concourses, there is a “Walk Through Atlanta History” exhibit. In it there is a photo of a fairly miserable-looking Leo Frank and his wife not too far from a photo of Margaret Mitchell, oddly enough. He was the manager of pencil factory in Atlanta in the early 1900s. One of his workers, a young girl, was found murdered at the factory. She had also been raped. Well, despite evidence to the contrary, Leo got blamed. He was convicted and while he was awaiting appeal, he was kidnapped from the jail by a group of “citizens” and lynched. It was a sensational story for the day and I’m sure Ms Mitchell was familiar with it. I wonder what she thought about it. Methinks might not have been good.

[Danik 2016]

Evidently the link which I posted has changed. Let's see if this works:



https://thereadersroom.org/2017/06/26/terrible-reviews-of-great-books-gone-with-the-wind/#more-13294



Indeed, it shows "Mitchell seemed to forget what the KKK actually got up to and portrays them as ‘gallant gentlemen’ which they certaintly were not." This among other things proves that the book, which was such a massive best seller, had many shortcomings.

I think, your citation hits the nail, Poppins!

[Danik 2016]

I completely agree with you here, Sancho:"I think what modern readers choke on is not so much that it’s a racist novel, but that it’s an apologia of the southern plantation lifestyle. Hence a defense of slavery." It was a whole mode of life and it seems to have been Mrs. Mitchel's mood of life until the war.

I am also glad to read a post that doesn´t demonise Scarlett. She is not a "good" woman. She is a survivor. The "good woman" according to the lights of the novel would be Melanie,but Melanie dies in the end.

[hellsapoppin]

@Sancho,


Initially it was referred to as "the Cause" ~ that is, a 'righteous struggle' against Yankee 'aggression' which sought to undermine their way of life. Then it is referred to the "Lost Cause". At first it was thought to be a glorious, noble, and worthy effort. Then when they paid a heavy price tag they conceded that it was not worth it at all. At no point did they concede that slavery was an evil or that secession was illegal. Instead they employed every manner of self justification and apologia to defend both, never conceding at all that they started and prolonged the war.

[hellsapoppin]

I think, your citation hits the nail, Poppins!


Thanx!




[QUOTE -- "I am also glad to read a post that doesn´t demonise Scarlett."[/QUOTE]


I read several reviews starting with some from the time the book was written. It seems like for several decades she was defended by many commentators as simply being a survivor who had everyone's best interests in mind. Then starting with the Civil Rights movement of the late 1960s the view towards her changed. Indeed, early commentators never mentioned her racist rants. Later critics did. And, as I wrote before, nobody (except for me) has used the term "sexist" to denote her inclinations. But that's been discussed already.

It's all like Moby Dick ~ a book HATED and demonized in its time by contemporary critics. Today it is beloved and venerated by modern critics.

In their time the Impressionist painters were considered cranks who created worthless junk. Today they are considered classicists whose works will cost you millions to buy.

Views change and I guess that's what makes it all art.

[hellsapoppin]

@Sancho



Forgot to address that part of your question.

Yes, indeed, I read about him many decades ago. It was a very sad story of an innocent man (an engineering scholar) wrongly accused and having been murdered in cold blood for a crime he did not commit. His death influenced the creation of the Anti Defamation League as no one was charged with his murder.

[Sancho]

Has anybody read Charles Frazier’s Cold Mountain?

Following The Battle of the Crater, Confederate Soldier, Inman, decides he’s had enough of war and decides to desert the army. He sets off on an odyssey-like walk back to his home to Tennessee.

The battle itself was fascinating, in the novel as well as in the history of the Civil War. It was part of the months-long siege of Petersburg, Virginia. A group of Union soldiers from Pennsylvania, former coal miners, had an unusual (and potentially brilliant) idea — why not tunnel under Confederate lines and blow the rear to smithereens with dynamite, thereby breaking the siege. It could’ve worked, but fell apart due to the poor planning of the maneuver that followed the blast.

Anyhow, as Civil War novels go, I enjoyed this one immensely. Also a pretty good movie.

[bounty]

I have cold mountain but haven't read it yet. ive come close to picking it up a couple of times though...so I suspect eventually I will. maybe all the more so because I like books that have movie versions.

[hellsapoppin]

I was on another website the other day when some gal wrote that she had been named for Scarlett O'Hara. Over the years people have pointed the bad and good sides of the character to her. She's heard everything there is to know about Scarlett O ~ it's amazing how many points of view there are about her.

[Sancho]

Ya know, I don’t think I realized it until I was just surfing around on the web, but Vivien Leigh played Blanche DuBois as well as Scarlett O’Hara. Any thoughts on Streetcar?

[hellsapoppin]

I am a member of IMDb and rated it a 9:


https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044081/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1


Marlon Brando stole the show. Great acting and atmospheric scenery.

[hellsapoppin]

After reading GWTH via audio book and then re-reading my ancient volume of the book, I decided to donate it to a Little Free Library at a nearby church. The book is not an original issue so that it does not have much value and the binding is rather decrepit. I hope someone will enjoy it soon.

[Danik 2016]

A good idea, Poppins. It´s a good thing when there are book recycling places. I had to give away about 800 books, no idea what happened to them.

[Danik 2016]

I am a member of IMDb and rated it a 9:


https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044081/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1


Marlon Brando stole the show. Great acting and atmospheric scenery.

Found another complete version of "Streetcar" with Alec Baldwin, spoken in Engllish, cc in Portuguese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fow4jNSvayQ .The Marlon Brando is only available here as trailer.

[hellsapoppin]

A good idea, Poppins. It´s a good thing when there are book recycling places. I had to give away about 800 books, no idea what happened to them.


Very generous of you to do so. Over my many years I've donated over 2,000 books to churches such as St Mary's in Brooklyn, Berkeley-Carroll School, and Salvation Army. Many were really good books and I hope their new owners found them to be fun and illuminating. I bought that volume of GWTW over 50 years ago and I hope that many will enjoy it over at least the next 50 years.

How I wish that we had today used book stores like those we had in Book Row (Greenwich Village, NYC), and down town Brooklyn, Montague Street). I could buy a full grocery bags worth of excellent books for only one dollar back in the day. This is how I accumulated so many books over the years. I still have a couple of dozen books which I plan on re-reading and will eventually give them away to Little Free Library.

[bounty]

danik I don't know if brazil has such programs, but poppin you might enjoy an additional place I have donated books to. I also do curbside libraries, actual libraries, and thrift stores, but other options include charities that send books to prison inmates.

https://www.booksthroughbars.org/

https://booksthroughbarsnyc.org/

https://insidebooksproject.org/

https://prisonbookprogram.org/

https://prisonalliance.org/donate-books

[Danik 2016]

danik I don't know if brazil has such programs, but poppin you might enjoy an additional place I have donated books to. I also do curbside libraries, actual libraries, and thrift stores, but other options include charities that send books to prison inmates.

https://www.booksthroughbars.org/

https://booksthroughbarsnyc.org/

https://insidebooksproject.org/

https://prisonbookprogram.org/

https://prisonalliance.org/donate-books

I suppose there may some sort of prison program but I have never heard about it, bounty.

[Danik 2016]

Very generous of you to do so. Over my many years I've donated over 2,000 books to churches such as St Mary's in Brooklyn, Berkeley-Carroll School, and Salvation Army. Many were really good books and I hope their new owners found them to be fun and illuminating. I bought that volume of GWTW over 50 years ago and I hope that many will enjoy it over at least the next 50 years.

How I wish that we had today used book stores like those we had in Book Row (Greenwich Village, NYC), and down town Brooklyn, Montague Street). I could buy a full grocery bags worth of excellent books for only one dollar back in the day. This is how I accumulated so many books over the years. I still have a couple of dozen books which I plan on re-reading and will eventually give them away to Little Free Library.

I gave them away out of necessity, because I won´t be able to take them with me when I move from this apartment, Poppins. There were many good books among them, I hope they have found good readers.

In near my older address there used to be several good used book stores. Sometimes one could swap books for different ones. All these stores are disappearing. Brazil was never a country of readers and now it's less than it was before.

[hellsapoppin]

danik I don't know if brazil has such programs, but poppin you might enjoy an additional place I have donated books to. I also do curbside libraries, actual libraries, and thrift stores, but other options include charities that send books to prison inmates.

https://www.booksthroughbars.org/

https://booksthroughbarsnyc.org/

https://insidebooksproject.org/

https://prisonbookprogram.org/

https://prisonalliance.org/donate-books




Good post. I had not been aware of this. Having been a law school graduate, I had many books on law and would have shared them with these folks, esp with NYC Books Through Bars as NY is my original home town. As of now, I only have about 25 books or so having given away so many in the past. I am not likely to replace them but -- you never know.

[bounty]

the books I send to the inmate charities are ones I get expressly for that purpose, so its a sort of double bonus---the inmates get books and the thrift stores/library sales I get them from get some dollars too. my local library manager actually sometimes just gives me books because she knows what im doing with them, and it also clears up some shelf space.

[free]

Mentioning "Streetcar Named Desire", it occured to me that from "Gonne with the Wind" main acress, Vivien Leigh, is an undoubdfully beautiful woman, but the same film made in 1995 with Alec Baldwin and Jessica Lange, I must say that she is much better actress. If it was possible to make a film with Brando and Lange, it would be a great remake or adaptation (I am not sure which expression to use. :confused5:)

[hellsapoppin]

youtube video on historically overlooked black male enslavement and sexual victimization:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDP5Rn19c8A

segment on GWTW starts at approximately 08:46

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Poppins!