Jean-Paul Sartre: The Wall

[NickAdams]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Jean-Paul_Sartre%2C_portrait_de_t%C3%AAte-et-%C3%A9paules%2C_faisant_face_bien%2C_pipe_de_tabag isme.jpg/200px-Jean-Paul_Sartre%2C_portrait_de_t%C3%AAte-et-%C3%A9paules%2C_faisant_face_bien%2C_pipe_de_tabag isme.jpg



In the five stories included in this collection-- "The Wall," "The Room," "Erostratus," "Intimacy," and "The Childhood of a Leader" --the French master of Existentialism displays his powers of narrative and psychological insight at their most effective. Sartre's characters and situations mirror the conflicts, complexities, neuroses and sensuality of the twentieth century. His intellectual underworld includes a modern Erostratus who is compelled to murder, a psychotic who communicates his hallucinations to his formerly-sane spouse, an unfaithful wife still bound to her impotent husband, a boy's metamorphosis into an anti-semitic fascist, and the astonishing fate of a political prisoner.


The Wall


Table of Contents


The Wall
The Room
Erostratus
Intimacy
The Childhood of a Leader

Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Wall-Other-Stories-Directions-Paperbook/dp/0811201902/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216215457&sr=1-1

Wikipedia (contains spoilers): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wall_%28book%29

I was unsure as to the purpose of the poll. Is The Wall to be critiqued as fiction or philosophy ... or both? I decided to ask if any, if not all, are effective and within the thread we can explain our own approach to the work.

[lugdunum]

Thanks for creating that Nick.:thumbs_up

I'll get my copy in a few days and get started.

[johann cruyff]

So...what exactly do you mean by effective? If you're asking how many stories had an impact on me,I'd say at least three. They're all very good,they all carry the "germ of existentialism" in them,so to speak,but I liked The Wall and Erostratus the most,especially the latter.

[jgweed]

Given that each of the short stories, even if obliquely, illustrate some of Sartre's fundamental philosophical points (mauvaise foi, for example), I would say they are effective; whether or not they are memorable as pure literature is another point (much the same could be said for some of Voltaire's stories).

[DapperDrake]

Excellent! I'll start reading either tonight or tomorrow... though that does mean I'm reading 3 books at once now, oh well, its been worse :D

[NickAdams]

So...what exactly do you mean by effective? If you're asking how many stories had an impact on me,I'd say at least three. They're all very good,they all carry the "germ of existentialism" in them,so to speak,but I liked The Wall and Erostratus the most,especially the latter.

The post I left clarifying this was deleted, but jgweed comments on both aspects:

Given that each of the short stories, even if obliquely, illustrate some of Sartre's fundamental philosophical points (mauvaise foi, for example), I would say they are effective; whether or not they are memorable as pure literature is another point (much the same could be said for some of Voltaire's stories).

I have not read the stories, so I was unsure the approach the poll should take. Do we judge by literary or philosophical merit ... or both? I thought the current poll would be best and those voting could post the details. Those who are not familiar with his philosophy, or philosophy in general, can approach the work as fiction and those who are familiar can judge based on the strength or weakness of either.


Thanks for creating that Nick.:thumbs_up

I'll get my copy in a few days and get started.

I have my copy stored in a box and it might take a few days for me to get to it.


Excellent! I'll start reading either tonight or tomorrow... though that does mean I'm reading 3 books at once now, oh well, its been worse :D

I guess I'll search the boxes tonight. At least it's short stories, so you can take it a story at a time. I enjoy parallel reading. I'm reading Joyce's Potrait now, so it will be interesting to read The Childhood of a Leader since they deal with youth development; it should be the same for you with The Catcher in the Rye. Of course it's not what the authors intended, but parallel reading can lead to outer-text irony.

[Scheherazade]

Nick, could you please point out which post of yours was deleted? Our records do not show a delete.

What's more, when we delete or edit a post, we usually inform the user via PM. Have you received such a PM?

[NickAdams]

Nick, could you please point out which post of yours was deleted? Our records do not show a delete. What's more, when we delete or edit a post, we usually inform the user via PM.

Of course: it succeeded my initial post and reigned as second now lugdunum's post occupies the throne. The contents chronicled the birth of the poll (8 lbs 3 oz:) ).

I attribute the deletion to a computer error or my work moderator, not our valued Litnet admins. I appreciate the inquiry though and as a gift I extend an invitation to join the read.;)

[Scheherazade]

I was unsure as to the purpose of the poll. Is The Wall to be critiqued as fiction or philosophy ... or both? I decided to ask if any, if not all, are effective and within the thread we can explain our own approach to the work.Is it possible that this is your post?

It has been merged with your initial post because they have been posted in close succession (which is considered flooding).

Oh, thanks for the invitation, by the way.

[NickAdams]

Is it possible that this is your post?

It has been merged with your initial post because they have been posted in close succession (which is considered flooding).

Oh, thanks for the invitation, by the way.

O, Wendy you are such a good little witch.:D Thanks: I hate to be the person who make statements without a full investigation ... I do that a lot actually.:lol:

[Scheherazade]

O, Wendy you are such a good little witch.:D I get that a lot.

;)

[NickAdams]

At the beginning of The Wall the narrator, Pablo Ibbieta, is alive in the chaos of existence. He illustrates his being through the senses: visual and touch. Once he is informed of his sentence and chaos becomes fate his existence is that of nothingness, but after he inadvertently gives up Gris randomness returns him to chaos and to the senses (smell and touch, "to a small room that smelt of cigars and where the heat was stifling").

Identities are established by the guards questions: name and occupation, "most of the time they didn't go any further." Juan is asked only his name, we are to learn that Juan refuses to act so he is condemned by his brother's identity.

Pablo Ibbieta shares the room with two other prisoners: Juan Mirbal, the man who refuses to act, and Tom Steinbock (Tom's identity is established by the material). Tom's demeanor shifts from that of Pablo to that of Juan as the story progresses. A doctor is sent into the room with the prisoners and Tom becomes more like Juan, Pablo asks if they should request a priest.

I am not that skilled when it comes to the interpretation of philosophy, but this is what I came away with: fate is certainty and certainty is death. We live less because of it. This is the world with god. Chaos is uncertainty and uncertainty is life. It is the examined life and we live more because of it. Purpose and meaning is not found in the end (death), but is created and changed by the individual. Life is flux and death is static.

[armenian]

i really liked nausea, are these stories anything like it?

[DapperDrake]

Ok just read the first one today, the Wall.

I found it pretty effective as a story, Pablo has the illusions of life (the ones we all live with) stripped away from him by his fated imminent death, he is forced to face up to the stark realities of existence and the process changes him and his perception of the world around him. Everyday objects take on a different hue and meaning beyond the physical effects of fear, the absurdity of life is laid bare to him and Pablo is liberated by the experience.

"in the state I was in, if anyone had come to tell me that I was free to go home, that I'd been pardoned, the news would have left me cold: a few hours or a few years of waiting, there's no real difference once you've lost the illusion you're eternal. I'd stopped clinging to anything, in one sense I was calm."

I think the nature of Pablo's salvation, the random chance of it, is to underscore the absurdity of life that has been revealed to him.

Also I like the irony that he's a freedom fighter who is liberated from his illusions by being sentenced to death, presumably the opposite of what he was trying to achieve.

[NickAdams]

"in the state I was in, if anyone had come to tell me that I was free to go home, that I'd been pardoned, the news would have left me cold: a few hours or a few years of waiting, there's no real difference once you've lost the illusion you're eternal. I'd stopped clinging to anything, in one sense I was calm."

I thought the "news would have left me cold" refered to a return to existence. With the sentence, a consciousness of fate, Pablo didn't feel the cold the guard and Dr. felt which was a sense of the living.


Also I like the irony that he's a freedom fighter who is liberated from his illusions by being sentenced to death, presumably the opposite of what he was trying to achieve.

I hadn't noticed that.

[DapperDrake]

I thought the "news would have left me cold" refered to a return to existence. With the sentence, a consciousness of fate, Pablo didn't feel the cold the guard and Dr. felt which was a sense of the living.


I don't know, I mean this is a translation right? does that idiom exist in French? I agree it can be read two ways in English but I'm curious how it reads in the original. - I'm assuming this was originally in French :-/

Does any one here know French? :D




Identities are established by the guards questions: name and occupation, "most of the time they didn't go any further." Juan is asked only his name, we are to learn that Juan refuses to act so he is condemned by his brother's identity.



what do you mean by Juan refusing to act?

[NickAdams]

I don't know, I mean this is a translation right? does that idiom exist in French? I agree it can be read two ways in English but I'm curious how it reads in the original. - I'm assuming this was originally in French :-/

Does any one here know French? :D


When it comes to the translations of philosophical works, semantics becomes an obstacle to the reader.

When it comes to existence and being it means something different to the French and romance languages in general, because in the English langauge a person is hungry (a state of being) and in romance languages a person has hunger (which is more possesive). I often wonder if Sartre would have developed his philosophy of existence if he didn't speak French.


what do you mean by Juan refusing to act?

If action is positive and inaction is negative. Juan defines himself through the negative: "I'm not Jose" and "I don't want to die."

Tom doesn't act either, but not by refusal. He has no need. The papers inform who he is, but Juan refuses through the negative statements. In the end the guards have to drag him out because Juan has went limp, but not as resistance. He has giving himself up to fate, which is represented by the guards.

[jgweed]

Cold. The narrator is physically cold, and emotionally cold as well, for he has detached or disengaged himself from the world and views it, as it were, from an objective standpoint, even objectifying Others---his cellmates, his lover. His future is sealed, cut off, by the firing squad in the morning, and without a future and future's freedom, he sees himself as the-one-who-is-condemned to die. Doesn't this illustrate a mild and perhaps understandable version of "bad faith"?

Life is absurd---the arbitrary decisions of the interrogators, the narrator's collaboration resulting in an end he did not intend.

[DapperDrake]

So what is Sartre saying to us with this story?

I have not read anything about Sartre's philosophy but personally what i'm taking away is that the story is about the meaninglessness and comic absurdity of life, the first part of the story is Ibbieta realising this and the the second part is acceptance.

Anyway, onto The Bedroom!

[NickAdams]

Doesn't this illustrate a mild and perhaps understandable version of "bad faith"?

In that he is responding like a condemned man? Or that they are behaving like prisoners.



Anyway, onto The Bedroom!

That's what she said.
I started reading it on Friday and I will complete today, but I don't think much of it at the moment.

[DapperDrake]

Hmm not a great fan of it, its not as effective as The Wall for sure but it does address similar issues. I'm just reading through it a second time to fully get to grips with it but i'm feeling its more contrived and less powerful than The Wall.

Edit: OK, well its certainly interesting. The Bedroom... Which Bedroom? both? or all Bedrooms. I think the wall theme is still strong here, there is a wall between Eve and Pierre and another wall between Eve and the rest of society, there are also the walls of Pierre's and Mme Darbedat's illnesses.
I think there are deeper meanings here that i'm not getting, there is a lot of symbolism, like the statues in Pierre's hallucinations, very powerful, even the various objects that are described thoughout the story seem to beg more impact, what is the turkish delight about for example?
Finally "recapitualtion" I'm just completely missing the point of that, is there even a point? Is it a freudian slip or just a random manifestion of a deteriorating mind?

[lugdunum]

Finally got my copy (in French).... It took forever to get here! Sorry. :(

I'll get started and post comments asap.

[DapperDrake]

Don't worry I think we've slowed to a crawl anyway. I'm about half way through Intimacy now.
I liked Herostratus, though it did seem to be mainly a platform for Sartre to give vent to his opinions of Humanism and Humanists.

[lugdunum]

I'm about half way through Intimacy as well.

I must say I'm enjoying this book a lot more than I thought I would.

As for effectiveness, I think (so far) the Wall was the best one but I also really liked Erostratus.


I don't know, I mean this is a translation right? does that idiom exist in French? I agree it can be read two ways in English but I'm curious how it reads in the original. - I'm assuming this was originally in French :-/

Does any one here know French?

The French version reads "M'aurait laissé froid". (exact translation of "would have left me cold")

The idiom also exists in French. It can therefore be understood as "would have had no impact" or as NickAdams said "cold" in the sense of temperature (and therefore in that case "living").

[DeadAsDreams]

Well I just finished all five short stories. I believe they were all effective in their own way, however I liked the last short story the best. The philosophical ideas that were presented often reminded me of Nausea actually.

[armenian]

i liked the wall and erostratus
i liked how he told 'leader' at once, without any breaks, so that the boys whole life flowed
the room was well written, but had no impact on me
i couldnt bother to read a few pages past intimacy, it just wasnt 'clear' enough for me

[lugdunum]

Finished last night. I really liked it. Thanks again for starting that.

I liked all five stories but only 3 I thought were effective (at least the way I understand it): The Wall, Erostratus and Childhood of a Leader.

The other two stories had their own impact - mainly I felt like slapping these two women telling them to wake up from their pathetic devotion to their hopeless husbands:lol:.

So what do you think is the worst wall /I] of all of these stories.

I mean the way I see it, there are physical walls in [I]the Wall and (in a way) in the Bedroom, psycological walls (insamity) in Erostratus and Leader and then in Intimacy, I think it's the woman who's impeding herself from going anywhere.


Nick Adams
fate is certainty and certainty is death. We live less because of it. This is the world with god. Chaos is uncertainty and uncertainty is life.


If action is positive and inaction is negative.

This is even more meaningful in The Bedroom and Intimacy in which both women choose to stay with their husbands. By choosing to stay the way they are(certainty) and refusing to leave (uncertainty) they choose "not to live". I don't know if I'm making sense.


Armenian
i really liked nausea, are these stories anything like it?

DeadAsDreams
I liked the last short story the best. The philosophical ideas that were presented often reminded me of Nausea actually.

Nausea seems to have had some positive impact . I'll add it to my reading list. :idea: Thanks.