My faith has been shaken; a cry out fo help

[Gozeta]

Almost everyone has read the bible, even have heard of it right? What if I were to tell you that the bible you've read since you were young has pieces missing to it? Did you know that there are letters from Thomas the apostle missing and even kept in secret? That also there have been words taken and added to this book? How can my faith and yours stand knowing, "What if it was translated wrong; miss interpreted?"

[Snukes]

Been watching Stigmata lately? ;)

You make a good point though. Most people aren't aware that the Bible, as it exists today, was compiled long after the life and death of Jesus Christ. At that time, human beings compiled the texts that were inspired by God which laid out the tenets of Christian faith. Who is to say that these human beings didn't miss something, or that they didn't choose badly or worse?

2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is inspired of God (etc etc). You find similar references elswhere in the Bible. It's hard to take a book's own word for its credibitly, but history has really proven this out. The internal harmony between all the books that are in the Bible is fantastic. It's continued relevance to our lives even two thousand years later is awesome, to use the word literally.

So what about those missing books? Thomas is not the only one. Take a look at the difference between Catholic and Protestant Bibles. There's a whole set of books that the Protestants didn't keep (the Macabees, Tobin, etc). The reason for this is that after carefully examining these books, it was found that they do not show the same signs of being inspired of God that the other books show.

The last thing I would point out is this: if you choose to believe that God truly does exist, don't you think he would see to it that his Word is preserved the way he wants it?

You ask difficult questions, Gozeta. If you're honestly curious about finding the answers (as opposed to just baiting the Christians to see if you can get anyone riled up), there are certainly resources to find the information you want.

[rocksea]

Well mankind is blessed with enough of common sense,
every one doesnt live life exactly as is written in bible.
People usually take what is good for them.
Anyways it is seen that most of the things written out
in the bible is in good sense and for the well being of the
human community. So I don't think it is a big deal to fret
about something else. The pages left on the bible are enough
to enlighten anyone. Yeah, words get taken or added from
the book as it goes down the histroy line and on translation,
from generation to generation. Yet the basic message of the
bible and the well being of the human beings is conserved,
that is what I suggest.

[Scheherazade]

I say Carpe Diem...

[Gozeta]

So, are you presuming that God had some devine intervention to how the book should be? How can you be sure if this is how God wanted it?

[Dyrwen]

The book is just a combination of stories packed into one volume of many chapters. Sure there were things left out, the Church built the book and the religion. God, assuming one exists, just inspired the people around the world to write about it. Religion decided what to tell the people God really meant through picking and choosing of the books to keep in the Bible.

That's just life when a religion is comprised of loosely translated text like that.

[Snukes]

So, are you presuming that God had some devine intervention to how the book should be? How can you be sure if this is how God wanted it?

I am the last one to say "you can't really know" or "God works in mysterious ways." Faith is nothing without support.

But to answer your question, you have to either accept the fact that God exists as an all good, all powerful being or tell me that you believe something else. Because if you think God is just an abstract force that doesn't care about human beings, then you've answered your own question - it doesn't matter.

So the rest of this post will assume that God exists and that he is all powerful and all good, and that Jesus Christ was his son, sent to redeem our sins.

An all powerful God who loves humankind would have little reason to want humans to simply forget him. This necessitates a provision whereby we can learn to know about him and learn to know what he wants from us. For the first couple thousand years of human history, God was in direct communication with humans. When the oral tradition finally gave way to writing, God was still in communication with humans. (Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible). Seems pretty likely that he would have made sure Moses got it straight. The same is true for the books of kings and prophets.

When Jesus came, God no longer spoke directly to his people because he had sent Jesus as his new promise to mankind. The fact that Jesus directly quotes the books in the Old Testament is very good proof that God approved of and inspired those books. The New Testament, in turn, is written by men who had God's holy spirit, which was given to them by Jesus. You'd think that Holy Spirit would fill the same function, since it was sent from God.

So the simple answer to your question is that yes, God did have a direct hand in how his Word would be recorded and passed on through history. Obviously human imperfection makes it a bit tricky (the Catholics and Protestants having a difference of oppinion over which books belong in the Bible) but a bit of historical reseach can provide some insite into the reasons for that as well.

And finally, one last comment on translation in reply to Drywen:


That's just life when a religion is comprised of loosely translated text like that.

I find it interesting that you choose to say that the Bible, of all texts in human history, is "loosely translated." I'll leave it at that. ;)

[Dyrwen]

I find it interesting that you choose to say that the Bible, of all texts in human history, is "loosely translated." I'll leave it at that. ;)
Yeah, considering it went from something like Greek to Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English, I'd say it has its share of problems in that department alone. heh

[Gozeta]

I don't know... I'm just confused. I need to make more research of this. Thank you all for your statements.

[Snukes]

I grant that there are problems out there with many old translations, but by now, most of them have been resolved. It's a strange case of more time making it possible to have better translations. Finding the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example, gave many new original texts to corroborate the original texts already in use.

But any GOOD translation of the Bible is translated directly from the original languages - Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Many originals (that is to say, contemporary with the original writings) of every book of the Bible exist and modern translators use all available texts while compiling translations. Any time the texts disagree, there is a footnote in your translation giving both possible translations. The differences are rarely significant.

You're entitled to think whatever you'd like about the skills of the translators (who usually work in teams of dozens, or in the cases of the NIV and NWT, hundreds) but at least realize that they're not translating from translations of translations.

[subterranean]

I don't know... I'm just confused. I need to make more research of this. Thank you all for your statements.


You should. If you feel the need to find out, then you should do some research about it. But I suggest you dig from both sides, from the opinions which counter the Bible as the book consist of words, purely inspired by God and remains "original" until this very moment, and the opinions which are contradictory. Then, determine yourself, which side you want to believe in. And eventhough you already come in to a conclusion, don't stop there. Keep searching, cause there's no boundary for knowledge. I mean we know that crows are black, but who knows, maybe there are white crows out there, but we just haven't find them yet.

[Gozeta]

Your right! But do you have any ideas to where I can start searching?

[subterranean]

Books, literature, a preacher serving in your church (if you go to church), intelectual devout Christian, people who don't believe in the Bible and have strong arguments as the basic of their action. Things around you I suppose.

[baddad]

I say Carpe Diem...


Si' Seniorita. If there is a God, he would want exactly that.

[Dyrwen]

A "brief" History of the Bible (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html) if you'd like, check that out. Very comprehensive. Yet in the context of it being about the Bible, pretty "brief".

[subterranean]

Baddadd, How'd you know?

[mono]

Si' Seniorita. If there is a God, he would want exactly that.

Very interesting how you can speak on behalf of God.

[Basil]

How can my faith and yours stand knowing, "What if it was translated wrong; miss interpreted?"

Hmmm . . . are you suggesting it's possible that Jesus, in fact, does NOT want me for a sunbeam after all?

[Basil]

Oh, by the way, Mono . . .


Very interesting how you can speak on behalf of God.


. . . what kind of sanctimonious foofaraw is THAT?

[subterranean]

Very interesting how you can speak on behalf of God.


It was an imaginary comment.

[Scheherazade]

Very interesting how you can speak on behalf of God.

Why not? So many on here talk about how God will end the world or we are/will be punished for our deeds... Why not do the same for something positive as well???

[Gozeta]

I thought the ending of the world was a positive thing. Since it marked the arrival of Jesus Christ.


Hmmm . . . are you suggesting it's possible that Jesus, in fact, does NOT want me for a sunbeam after all?




No, I'm suggesting what if we made an error. "What if" there was a mistake there in the bible. Can it be explained simply by saying ,"God works in mysterious ways"? In turn saying that it's our job to figure out where we made the mistake at?

[Scheherazade]

I thought the ending of the world was a positive thing. Since it marked the arrival of Jesus Christ.

It might be a positive thing for you... but what about those who do not share your religious beliefs?

What's more, I was talking about doing something positive while still in this world, before the end of the world comes... Hence Carpe Diem while we still have time...

[Gozeta]

Oh, (*sigh*) but what can be more positive then worshiping our Creator forever and ever?

....I'm guessing no one noticed the sarcasm here.

[Dyrwen]

Having the free will to say no? I find that pretty positive.

Hell, as Thomas Jefferson said: "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787 .

No point in just being a cheerleader forever and ever if you can't think for yourself.

[rocksea]

One fine saturday morning.. I was lazily sleeping..
Knock knock.. someone has come to see me..
I didn't want to get up.
Anyways I thought I would open the door and see..

.. and there were they!!
Two middle aged women standing there with a heavy load
of books and there lips bedded with lipstick..
They told me
"the world is going to end"
With sleeping eyes I told them I want to sleep.
I didnt let them in.
They stood there and started talking to me.
OK, even if I don't go inside and sit, I won't let them!

They told me troubles are increasing in the world,
the world is going to end. They told me that just
a few days before a girl was raped by a gang.
They told me wars are increasing.
I told them all these were happening from the beginning
of mankind. There were wars, rapes, troubles and all
kind of bloodsheds. Population has increased these days.
Technology has increased as well. Both of these leads
to bloodsheds and troubles in high levels.
Calamities.. earth, like any other globe/planet, will have
its own way of behaving.. the plates will move, continents
drift, sea level rise.. but all these have been happening from
the very beginning.

They told me.. "only the selected will be saved"
That was the last threat. I didn't answer that hmm..
That was too silly to answer.

They opened the bible, took me to some pages, esp of
the old testament, told me.. god had said the world will
end soon. I asked them did he mention the time??
Then how can you say so?

I told them at last.. In the bible they are holding, from
which they are babbling verse after verse, in fact, jesus
tells that the day and the hour are even hidden from himself,
and that only God knows the time.

They went back disappointed. I didn't get back my sleep either;
after standing there and talking for half an hour.

[Snukes]

Very well put, Drywin!

I'm going to try and stay off my soap box this time, but would like to add that Drywin is exactly right. For every thing you claim to believe, make a point of knowing why you believe it. Be that believing God exists, that the end of the world is coming in 30 years, or that the Bible is a bunch of hooey. It is rarely wise to take what people tell you at face value.

[Gozeta]

The argument is whether or not the bible itself is of true authenticity. As it was originally written and meant for the world to see?

[Snukes]

And what I'm saying, simply, is yes. :) That is my belief. I like to think I can support it, but you also have to decide for yourself.

[den]

You know, I don't think this `argument' will ever have a definitive answer. You're not the first to ask, some people have devoted their entire lives to studying the origins and `authenticity' of the bible.



The argument is whether or not the bible itself is of true authenticity. As it was originally written and meant for the world to see?

[baddad]

......LOL........LOL.....guffaw.......guffaw...... ...yes oh yes....*wiping away tears of laughter*....this thread has surely gotten interesting.......

...not too sure where the "speaking on behalf of God" idea came from. Speaking personally, I have NO figurehead attached to my spirituality. But...
What I meant by my "Cartpe Diem" comment was only that 'IF' (pretty sure I've been consistenly clear with this word) such a being existed, one could surmise that rather than enjoying an endless discussion as to whether his existence is the crucial catalyst to human idealogy, this 'God', endowed with whatever characteristics each person has assigned Her/Him/Unisexual Being, is more likely to wish a peaceful co-existence concentrating upon each days positive potential , rather than positive energy being wasted bickering about the endless possibilities of his existence.......and what it all means. OOps.....am I speaking for 'god' again? CARPE DIEM my friends...

[Basil]

Baddad, since you speak on behalf of God . . .



. . . does Jesus want me for a sunbeam?

[baddad]

Baddad, since you speak on behalf of God . . .



. . . does Jesus want me for a sunbeam?

Well, BAsil, after a long and difficult consultation.....NO. No reason given. Just no.

[Scheherazade]

*knows the reason*

[Basil]

Well, BAsil, after a long and difficult consultation.....NO. No reason given. Just no.

Ahh well, He works in mysterious ways . . .

Scher: you just hush up . . .

[Scheherazade]

*hushes up... for the timebeing*
*wonders if Basil has some KitKats to offer*

[Basil]

No KitKats, but I got a Hershey'sTM Special Dark Mildly Sweet Chocolate Bar for Christmas!

[Scheherazade]

*is NOT choosey*
I will take the Hershey's as I hear they are really good... On second thought I will take the other one as well as I like dark chocolate...

[Basil]

Actually, that is just one chocolate bar, Scher!

And it's mildly sweet . . . just like me! ;)

[Scheherazade]

Oh, all that long name and just one chocolate?? Bah! I bet the chocolate bar is not long enough for them to write the whole thing on! :rolleyes:

[Basil]

Not anymore, it's not!

[subterranean]

Sometimes I wonder why people don't make fuss about the difference of skin colors among people throughout the world. I can't tell which one is the greatest and if I could/did then people would surely scold me on behalf of humanity. Aren't religions share the same characteristic?

[Jay]

*loves Scher's and Basil's bickering* :D:D:D
And my choc bar is WAY bigger than yours, dear Basil! :D And I'm just about to make it a history! And no one's getting a piece! *ha, gotcha* :p:D... well... uhm... okok, you can both have a half and I'll keep the third half, ok? :goof:

SubT, in a way, yes. If people are talking about discrimination they mentiong religion, color of skin, sexual orientation, nationality, minority... it's all about discrimination, I could discriminate you for your biiig eyes and sharp teeth because they're different from mine ;) and I don't like it/am afraid/offended/whatever the usual excuses are.

[baddad]

..uhhh.....Subby............skin colour has been discriminated against since time began. wintness South Africa (aparteid) , United States of America-England-Canada-Spain-Portugal-Et al until recent times (slavery). While psychologists suggest that any race different from one's own triggers responses adapted in millenium past ( E.G. studies show that members of one race rarely are able to distinguish an individual amongst another race, yet instantly recognize that a person is not of their own race. I am sure you've heard the term "they all look alike" referred to members of races other than your own. These studies show that this recognition factor is a universal phenomenom). I'm not suggesting that discrimination because of skin colour should be acceptable, but is instead flagrantly universal...............and completely ugly to witness.

[subterranean]

I know baddad, but people make more fuss for religious belief that skin colors..

[Scheherazade]

It is true that people make more fuss about religious differences but in my opinion that is due to the fact that racial discrimination is socially more 'acceptable'. It is embedded in our daily lives and we all do it without realising in many cases. Like baddad suggested 'you all look alike' is only one example. All blacks are good athletes, all Indians are business minded... Even though these look like simple innocent assumption, they only serve to emphasize the differences.

[Gozeta]

Well, it was nice talking to you all. This will be my last entry until I come back from Iraq. Take care everyone; I'll be back.

[Ron Price]

Although what I write below is a comment on a film and not the Bible, as this thread is concerned with, the points I make are relevant to this discussion and so I include them here:
______________________________

The dust of reviews has settled on this film and so: the time has come, perhaps, for a more dispassionate, a more considered, a more reflective, little review. Perhaps review is not quite the right word; perhaps what I have written here is just a comment, but it is no less provocative than the most provocative youve read thusfar and I hope you will find here some refreshing and intelligent insight into the way the film was made and perceived. My comments here also have some relevance to a range of Biblical/religious issues.
______________

This film is not intended to be a masterful historical documentary as, say, Ken Burns' work on the Civil War or one of many others done in the first century of the existence of the cinema. Gibson's work is far from possessing what some might call an intellectual poverty in its pretensions at historical documentary. Shawn Rosenheim says all TV documentaries possess an intellectual poverty. If Rosenheim is right the visual media are simply incapable of producing historical documentary.1 And if Rosenheim is wrong, as I tend to think he is, historical documentary of an event 2000 years ago is not impossible. It is, rather, a recreation. We simply do not know enough about the event Gibson is recreating to claim that what we are seeing is a documentary.

We all know that Gibson did not take his camera crew to downtown Jerusalem or into the little hamlet of Nazereth in some kind of time-warp to produce an anti-Jewish, anti Roman clip for the evening news. Even if he had and he then produced for us all an evening two hour special, spectacle, called "the crucifixion," there would still be questions about visual manipulation and the program's service in the name of directing popular thought toward a new religious movement. New religious movements have always had trouble getting popular exposure unless they can be associated with conflict and violence, eccentricity and the bizarre, indeed, anything visually stimulating and distracting.

No one would claim that Gibson's is a neutral recording of objective events. It is a construct operating from a certain point of view. It is a rhetorical argument achieved through the selection and combination of elements that both reflect and project a world, a world view, a cosmology if you like. It is achieved by certain cinematic conventions that try to erase any signs of cinematic artificiality. An ideology is promoted by linking the effect of reality to social values and institutions in such a way that these values seem natural and self-evident. In the case of Mel Gibson's work, a work that I found quite stimulating in its own way, the ideology is simply and strongly: fundamentalist Christianity.

I've never been attracted to Christianity in any of its fundamentalist forms. But I liked this film. Film can often get to people in ways that words, ideas and simple beliefs cannot. It was not because of its historical accuracy that I liked it. I liked All the Presidents Men and a number of other films based on and rooted in some historical theme. Rarely are historical films accurate; the main reason they seem so is that the people watching them know so little about the theme, the event, that it seems plausible to them. Sadly, but truly, we know so little about the events of the life of Jesus of Nazereth that a good script writer, a good cinematographer and a big band of men and women can bring something to life that may never have happened at all.

Bertrand Russell wrote in his Why I'm Not a Christian that, in a court of law, there is little evidence for even the existence of Jesus let alone his manner of death. Historicity simply does not exist when it comes to the events in the life of a man who has had a profound affect, I believe, on history. Of course, Russell says he does believe Jesus existed; he just wanted to make a point about the paucity of historical evidence. What we believe in life and what we know usually exist in two separate worlds, although hopefully their assumptions are not totally blind. What people who are believers and what they are as knowers, so to speak, about Jesus are radically separate. The distance between the pulpit and the academic chair of religion has been widening for at least two centuries. In fact for millions of men and women these days historicity is irrelevant to their beliefs. History has become, for those millions, what it was for Henry Ford: bunk or was it bunkum? My optimistic muse gives you 4/5, Mel and my pessimistic muse a 2/5.

As a sort of epilogue to this brief comment on the film: one of the main reasons many people are turning to Movements like the Baha'i Faith is that historicity is important to them. Religions that have grown up in the modern age face different problems of historicity, often too much rather than too little information and distortion by opponents and critics whose prime aim is to create dissention.

The Baha'i Faith, to stay with this example, confined as it is to only 6 million adherents, has grown slowly since the mid-nineteenth century. The originating impulse for each of the major religions of history, an impulse that led to the phenomenon of revelation or some defining religious experience has receded so far into history as to be accessible to us in only a very limited and unsatisfactory degree. Far otherwise with the work of the Founder of the Baha'i Faith. The details of His life are massively documented. And one could choose other claimants in modern history as well but that would lead to prolixity here.

History has a thousand faces, a thousand forms, and Mel Gibson has given us some very stimulating ones, perhaps a little too visually acute, in his film, The Passion of the Christ. They will serve for some of the millions who watched it to bring them closer to One whom Baha'u'llah, the Baha'i Faith's founder, said "when Christ was crucified the world wept with a great weaping." Bill Graham wept; many stayed home; millions viewed the film as it went into the top ten money spinners in cinema history two weeks ago. Some were appauled; some stimulated. To each his own.-Ron Price, Tasmania. :brow:

--------------------
Ron Price is a retired teacher, aged 60. He taught for 30 years in primary, secondary and post-secondary schools. He lives with his wife, Chris, in Tasmania. Their 3 children are now aged: 39, 34 and 27. Ron moved to Australia from Canada in 1971. He has written three books since 1999. They are all available on the internet for free. He has been a member of the Baha'i Faith for 45 years. :cool:

[Ron Price]

FRUSTRATINGLY INEXACT

The ancient apocalyptic writers of Daniel and The Book of Revelation gave much of their attention to the final times.....we suppose that our days are the worst of days and thus are the real prelude to the end....It is legitimate to draw what comfort we can from those works, but we should do so with the awareness that we are only the latest in a long line of readers who have felt that the works were composed with themselves in mind.-John Gabel and Charles Wheeler, The Bible As Literature: An Introduction, Oxford UP, NY, 1986, p.143.

The Book of Revelation is the Master Bridge revealed by Christ for the followers of all religions leading to the Kingdom of God on earth. -Ruth Moffett, New Keys to the Book of Revelation, Baha’i Publishing Trust, New Delhi, 1977, p.xvii.

Full of colour, action, concerned
with apocalyptic futurity,
a great succession of empires
going back to Babylon
in the sixth century BC
and ending in eschatology
with its visions of good and evil
meeting in a cosmic theatre
of moral and mortal combat,
with comfort to the suffering
then and now in these end times,
last days, in a frustratingly inexact
medium of symbolism and metaphor
like some gigantic crossword puzzle,
testing one’s spiritual acuity
and understanding of ancient numerology,
gematria, obscure literary devices
and allegorical methods.

And just who is it
that has the Master Key?

Ron Price
24 August 1996

[Aramis]

So, are you presuming that God had some devine intervention to how the book should be? How can you be sure if this is how God wanted it?

Because God is all powerful. He can do whatever he wants.

[Ancestor]

Because God is all powerful. He can do whatever he wants.

This answer sounds like something my exboyfriend would which is not an answer at all. No offense meant, Aramis. If Great Spirit (God) truly used man to write the Bible then how can man posses free will. If we have free will and the Great Spirit took our man to write the Bible then it is logical that Great Spirit took away our free will. Yeah, he could have given it back when Great Spirit was through but do you honestly think we would know exactly what the correct interuptation of the Bible is? We are all extremely differant from one another with our own ideals. So how does one determine the true meaning of the Bible?

[Aramis]

Ancestor, I'll try to answer those questions one at a time, according to what I believe. First of all, I don't believe that He would make anyone who was unwilling write the Bible. He merely gave those men the inspiration to write the truth. I also believe that He had the power to give people insight when they were compiling the Bible. I don't know what you mean by your last question. Could you please rephrase it?

[Ancestor]

How would you determine the Bible to be the true word of God? My faith is far different from most faiths and when you stated, 'Because God is all powerful, he can do whatever he wants.' It of what my exboyfriend would say to every question I asked him about his faith. I for one have not read the Bible from cover to cover because I cannot fully believe everything it is true. I feel that man's interuptation has tainted what the Great Spirit truly meant for us. I also have some problems with the people of other faiths and not the faith of their church. I have met the coldest people who make you feel they do not have faith at all. My faith fulfills me each as it grows with each breath I take. I learned to forgive those whom have committed a violent act against me. But I find most of the people around my town here who go to church every Sunday do not forgive. They also do not like Spiritualist either and that is okay they have their spiritual path and I have mine.

[AimusSage]

People will always look on things with human eyes. They have their own unique perception of the world.

Think about it, and try to fit religion into it, any religion or belief. In the end it will be a personal belief that originated from the self and has been shaped and influenced by the world around it.

[Aramis]

Ancestor- Since I believe the Bible to be true, that is what I would base all of my arguments on. Since you do not believe it to be true, none of my arguments would mean anything to you. As I do not want the conversation to go around in circles like that, I think I'll end my part of it here. (I'm only writing this so that you don't think I didn't read your post.)

[tiny explorer]

Bible has in it the things happened, happening and things to come...It is the prophecy God has allowed and will always be true.We people have the choices but remembr that God is all knowing He knows things watever we will do.maybe thats why Bible is where we look up to and not in skin color.anybody agree?hope so.....

[Ancestor]

Tiny explorer, I have to walk the line on this one because I believe people can turn to the Bible and find the answers they seek. But no all of us do find answers in the Bible and I am one of them. I feel if you have a strong faith within yourself and the Bible then that is a wonderful and beautiful thing. My faith however takes a side road because I do not feel that the Bible is 100% true and that it just me. However, there are stories within the Bible that I feel are true. I just cannot believe that man has not placed mans own ideals into the translation of the Bible. I am not saying that it was not given to humans by Great Spirit (God) but I just feel humans threw in their own ideals. Free will has a way of twisting the truth sometimes. Eventually we all have to decide what is true and not true with everything in our lives. As you get older your ideals will change and that means growing with you. My ideals grow with each breath I take and expand my being.

[Sitaram]

Some find faith in art. Others find art in faith. An Ark may be an Odyssey or an Odyssey your Ark.

Is it salvation that we seek? We must be doomed in order to be saved. How doomed? Saved from what? Saved by what? Saved for what? So many questions? Did you ever notice that there are more questions than answers?
Perhaps it is from questions that we need saving!

Adams first problem was loneliness, according to the Book of Genesis. God showed him each creature, that he might choose a companion, but Adam found no delight in any of the creatures. It was only after this failure of Adam, to make a choice, that God created Eve and chose for Adam. Adam was offered free will. Could he have chosen differently? This myth in Genesis is a Pandora's box of questions.

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/adam_and_eve.html


Situated in Genesis 2:18-22 is what might be called a biblical flashback, or a second creation story. The God said that it was not good that man should be alone; He would man a help for him. And, out of the ground God formed every beast of the field and fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them. Whatever Adam called them was their name. Some believe God placed Adam in the garden, giving him domination over the animal kingdom so he could name them, to develop his intellectual capacity. Adam named them all but he found no help (or mate) for himself. So God caused a deep sleep to come over Adam; he then took out a rib, and closed the flesh; and from the rib he formed a woman, and brought her unto the man.


God caused a deep sleep to come over Adam; a divine anesthesia. Suppose Adam has not yet awakened from that sleep? Suppose you and I and everything are part of Adam's dream?


During each of the six days of creation, in the Genesis account, God beholds, and sees that it is "good". When all is completed, on the sixth day, God sees that all is "very good".

But now, God looks at Adam, and sees that something is "not good." It is not good for Adam to be alone.

God creates. Man defines and names.

An artist looks at this story and says, "What can I make out of this?"

Here I am, right now, trying to make something out of nothing.

When someone wants to pick a fight, they say, "Oh yeah? You want to make something of it?" "I have a bone to pick with you!"

Ribs. Jawbones. "Oh dem, bones, Oh dem bones, Oh dem jee-umpin bones!"

Somehow, a bone is at the heart of things.


Question marks are shaped like a club, are they not, or the jawbone of a donkey? Who was it that slew all his enemies with the jawbone of a donkey?
Perhaps that jawbone was a metaphor for rhetoric. Perhaps that hero was really a Socrates, slaying his enemies with question marks.

It was Samson who slew his enemies with the jawbone of a donkey.
(am I allowed to say the Biblical word "***"). Oh dear, I guess not. My @ss becomes as-terisks. Oh well, that is better than becoming grass (as in the expression "your @ss is grass", which is used to indicate some less than desirable state of affairs.)

http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=55

I am here, writing at this very moment, because I awoke from sleep, and it was 3:00 a.m. I awake whenever my dreams disturb me. I prefer sleep and pleasant dreams, but when I cannot have them, then I read and write.

Pi is frequently attempting to distract his tiger companion, in Yann Martel's novel, "Life of Pi". I frequently attempt to distract and engage my mind. The mind is a faithful servant but a cruel master.

The mind is a beastly thing!

There were sacred texts long before there were owner's manuals. And before sacred texts, there was talk around the campfire; and remembrance of talk.

If you want to "talk the talk", you have to "walk the walk." This is what some Christian's tell me.

Literature is frozen talk, I suppose. Oh, not quite as frozen as Moses tablets of stone, down from Mt. Sinai. It is hard to freeze talk around a campfire.

A lot of this started with Abraham's campfire, and his deep, trance-like sleep.
Flames and dreams. They make such a lovely couple, don't they?

http://www.jesuswalk.com/abraham/4_covenant.htm



Genesis 15:12-17

As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. [13] Then the Lord said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. [14] But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. [15] You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. [16] In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

[17] When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces.


Sleep is useful.

In Hinduism, God falls asleep, and there is creation.

In Genesis, Adam falls asleep, and there is Eve.

Then Abraham falls asleep, and there is God.

I think we are making progress.

"For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come, when once we've shuffled off this mortal coil?"

Aye, there's the rub!

Er... what was the original question? Oh yes, "Shaken Faith."

Shake your faith!

Shake your booty!

Abraham was dreaming of booty, well, in the sense of plunder. Notice how I play with words. Adam was dreaming of booty before plunder was invented. This is why the oldest profession is not that of mercenary.

People often misquote the Epistle of Timothy (Timothy, 6:10) and say that "Money is the root of all evil." What that verse really says is, "Love of money is the root of all evil."

Now, the Bible tells us that "God is love" but it doesn't get into details about "love of what."

For, as the songwriter tells us, "Love is a many-splendored thing" (from the movie, from the novel by Han Suyin, Chinese novelist, in 1952.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Suyin


Earlier, I mentioned something about "owner's manuals." Whenever you don't know what you are doing, you read the owner's manual.

Now, an owner's manual is supposed to explain how to do something yourself. An owner's manual is not supposed to go into long details about other people doing it, but then leave you in the dark as to the exact step by step instructions.

[Scheherazade]

I just cannot believe that man has not placed mans own ideals into the translation of the Bible. I am not saying that it was not given to humans by Great Spirit (God) but I just feel humans threw in their own ideals. Free will has a way of twisting the truth sometimes. Of course men threw in his own ideas and put things they believed they should be present into the Bible. Otherwise, how can you explain all the different versions circulating? It cannot only be the translation differences.

[tiny explorer]

correct me if im wrong but , there are lots of bible translation which makes it hard for people to absorb its contexts specially if there are such conflicts.The King James Version of the Bible was said to be the nearest translation ever done from the original one.That, probably gives a more concrete support.If your worried of the little pieces missing...dont worry it's not that bad.the thousands of words counts more and does suffice the lacks of the missing words.right?its enough to appreciate those that we have than those unconcrete statemants were not sure of!
:yawnb: :p

ANCESTOR:It's so good to know you somehow believe half way in the bible.and ur right the case still depends on us but if we look even closer and try to absorb its every single element we could have a brighter sight on it.Well, its just my outlook here.sometimes believing is the best path to find truth.I find it true to me.

[Ancestor]

ANCESTOR:It's so good to know you somehow believe half way in the bible.and ur right the case still depends on us but if we look even closer and try to absorb its every single element we could have a brighter sight on it.Well, its just my outlook here.sometimes believing is the best path to find truth.I find it true to me.

I believe we all have our paths to walk and that there is a purpose to life whether we ever know that purpose or not. We wrote our past, we are writing our present, and we will write our future. I am a good writer for my life because I take my pain and embrace it instead of running from it. I do not harm others on purpose although I have accidentally. I try to live the best that I can and my faith helps me take each day step by step. When you put your life on hold to care for a Grandparent you see just how much of a sacrifice it really isn't. Even though the Grandparent is struggle to keep her sight, mind, and independence it still is not a sacrifice on my part. It hard and without my faith I doubt I would have the strength to go on. I know what the darkness did to me for 17 years and I am not about to go back there again. I am rabbling and if I do not stop I will be here for a year later still typing away. :)

[tiny explorer]

I believe we all have our paths to walk and that there is a purpose to life whether we ever know that purpose or not. We wrote our past, we are writing our present, and we will write our future. I am a good writer for my life because I take my pain and embrace it instead of running from it. I do not harm others on purpose although I have accidentally. I try to live the best that I can and my faith helps me take each day step by step. When you put your life on hold to care for a Grandparent you see just how much of a sacrifice it really isn't. Even though the Grandparent is struggle to keep her sight, mind, and independence it still is not a sacrifice on my part. It hard and without my faith I doubt I would have the strength to go on. I know what the darkness did to me for 17 years and I am not about to go back there again. I am rabbling and if I do not stop I will be here for a year later still typing away. :)
your right!whether or or not we know our purpose we struggle onwards to write our own story of life. But what i'm trying to emphasize here is having the bible as source of inspiration and finding relief on.You see, it's hard to explain but I believe in Predestination because God knows whatever we are to do and will be.And we strive on to make our life better because we know not.I just make my stand in having faith in the Word of God.



" Embracing the intimacy to God is the remedy to the ill and healthy. It's risky.....but it's astonishing to experience the power of letting God manage your life.That's having the power Beliving and right faith."....James Langteux