the soul

[rocksea]

what is your idea about the soul? in your religion or in your own opinion?
some say soul, some say life after life, some say
re-incarnation, some say atma, some say being one with god, whatever,
there is a general concept that there is something beyond our body,,
I think the soul is one concept on which most of the religions are rooted.
I know many of my fellow beings who go to church cuz they don't
want to be fried in the great fire called hell.

do you believe animals have souls? i personally don't like a thought that
we are that much different from animals other than that we are a bit more
developed/intelligent (in our sense). so if we have that sort of existance,
i would like to see the same in animals too..

if we all have souls and we all go to heaven, won't it be too crowded?
what do you say,,

[Jay]

If one believes in heaven there's no way you're going to get them agree with you that it's ever going to be crowded, their gods/beliefs already have to have thought about it and come up with sollutions. Others could tell you it won't get crowded because of reincarnation.

[rocksea]

but population is increasing.. how does reincarnation fit into that.
if everyone reincarnates, population shouldn't be increasing.

[Jay]

Not really a reincarnation fan, but I remember reading somewhere souls can 'born' as well, meaning you're not only 'recycling' the old souls, you get new as well.

[Spite]

Not really a reincarnation fan, but I remember reading somewhere souls can 'born' as well, meaning you're not only 'recycling' the old souls, you get new as well.

How can we be sure we are even born with a soul, what if it must be developed or earned?

[Jay]

If you want to play like that it would become necessary for someone to define what a soul is. Ever heard a phrase 'was looking as if without a soul'? Well, how could someone tell that then? Not really sure what kind of a point I'm trying to make... yet. Let alone put it into words.

[SuicideKitten]

then i am a soulless golem.

[Jay]

What makes you think so?

[subterranean]

but population is increasing.. how does reincarnation fit into that.
if everyone reincarnates, population shouldn't be increasing.

I think not every one got the chance to be reincarnated as human again. I remember reading that what you become later is determined by what you've done in your current life. If you're living a "holly" life, you may not be reincarnated again, but you become " a Buddha" (in Budhism). If you live as as good person towards the others and your environment, you may get the chance to be born as a better person in the next life, like a scholar, a priest, or royal blood. But if you do bad stuffs, then in the next life you'd be reincarnated as animals. The kinds of animals you become are also decide by how bad are the things you have done.

[Jay]

What do I have to do to be reincarnated as a dragon? Or a unicorn? Hmm...

[Miranda]

I haven't posted here for awhile as I've been busy. I believe that we have souls and that heaven will never be crowded. I am a Christian and believe what the bible says. In the book of Genesis, it says that God created man in his own image and then he breathed into him and man became a living soul. This is where we are different from animals in my opinion. We have some characteristics that God has, but that the rest of his creation does not share. We have an awareness beyond anmals, we can explore our universe, alter our environment and make decisions that alter the course of history. We have a measure of control over the earth, although some natural disasters are totally beyond us. We are able to create. We have intelligence, comprehension, ethics, way beyond any animal. We can choose between good and evil and can choose our destination in eternity.

I am not sure if animals have an eternity. The Bible portrays animals in heaven, but they may be merely symbolic. I have a thought of my own..not backed up by scripture at all and which might be a load of rubbish. But when we love an animal, it gives love back to us and becomes more than just an animal because it has learned love outside of its natural responses to its own kind and I believe love is eternal, as God is, so maybe in this way animals can become eternal and enter heaven. But maybe this is my wishful thinking because I have had pets that I have loved just as much as I could love another human being and I want to meet them again in heaven.

Heaven doesn't get full because it isn't like the earth at all and is a spiritual realm not dominated by the laws of our universe, of time or space. A spirit as far as we know doesn't take up any room. Ghosts for instance pass through things as if the objects arn't there at all. Do you believe in spirits and ghosts?

Miranda

[subterranean]

What do I have to do to be reincarnated as a dragon? Or a unicorn? Hmm...


You do bad stuffs..but not too bad stuffs....just the average bad stufffs and nothing really bad...

Do i make my self clear ? ;)

[amuse]

but population is increasing.. how does reincarnation fit into that.
if everyone reincarnates, population shouldn't be increasing.
that's assuming that we live in a geocentric universe. ;)

[Jay]

Ohhh, alien souls. So that means I actually could get to be a dragon :p. When there could be ETs I demand dragons as well :D. *coughs* a bit off topic. Pretend I didn't say that? lol

[Dyrwen]

Personally I don't believe in souls.

I know a lot of people attempt to classify them as "energy" inside human beings then attempt to use ideas about energy to justify its constant existence. Although the quantum energy of atoms that compose your body will continue to exist, they will not be conscious living energies nor will they usually be at all distinguishable from other energy.

Imagination is what has given scientifically possible "energy" in people their willingness to believe it is a part of you that continues on. Hope is the only thing stringing that belief along, seeing as the actual concept of a living entity that is everything you are surviving consciously after you are dead is pretty damned impossible, biologically speaking.

Anyway, that's my reasoning on the subject. If there were souls, they'd have more trouble even existing at all than picking which animal to exist within. If we all have a soul, then good, I'll be interested in understanding how they work when I die. Until then, I'll stick to the lack therof, for I've little reason to believe otherwise. :)

[Taliesin]

Btw, We recall an experiment that We think was made by Japanese.
They put a dying man on an electron scale.
When the man died, then the scale made a really tiny jump. The living body was just a little bit heavier than the corpse.
Therefore, on the moment of death, something went out. Was it the soul?

[Dyrwen]

They put a dying man on an electron scale.
When the man died, then the scale made a really tiny jump. The living body was just a little bit heavier than the corpse.
Therefore, on the moment of death, something went out. Was it the soul?
I researched this topic right after you mentioned it, so that I might grasp onto what the hell you were talking about. I discovered this link (http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp) pointing out that such an experiment did occur in 1907 where a dying body was recorded as losing some amount of weight right upon death. This experiment was tested 6 times, out of six tests, two had to be discarded, one showed an immediate drop in weight (and nothing more), two showed an immediate drop in weight which increased with the passage of time, and one showed an immediate drop in weight which reversed itself but later recurred. In other words, it is very inaccurate because it should have been tested more than 6 times and it should have yielded more results in the favor of his hypothesis, rather than having to throw out a few of them.

There is also some information here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul7.htm) alluding to other attempts at the experiment, but eventually it seems they aren't very probable to have occured. In one case the amount of weight that was lost at death was a number too improbable to have gathered from a scale, so one can imagine the sort of trouble a doctor in 1907 would have had measuring a "soul" when someone in recent times still can't make a scale powerful enough to gather it.

So, to answer your question: No, it probably was not the soul. It may very well have been the combined weight of the air they had breathed out upon death. It might have been them pissing their pants just a little. It could be any number of things and until the experiment is done again with proper results identifying what happened, I would classify the whole concept of a soul being measured in weight as improbable and therefore false. Interesting concept though.

[den]

In the most excellent movie, 21 Grams (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0315733/) starring Sean Penn and with Benecio del Toro, this, shall I say, `theory' that the soul leaves the body upon death, and that a body weighs exactly 21 grams less, therefore possibly it is the soul that this weight consists of is pondered over by Sean Penn's character.

But Dyrwen has pointed out it's been disproved scientifically, it's still one of those great mysteries that I feel will never be answered, as to `what' the soul consists of.

Wilder Penfield (http://www.cdnmedhall.org/laureates/?laur_id=15), one of Canada's pioneering brain surgeons, also struggled to understand this dual nature of humans, the physical workings of the brain, and his deeply religious life that led him to look for `Something Hidden' in amongst the convolutions of the brain, the soul.

[Jay]

rocksea, reading a story I remembered your soul thread, looky at it, it kind of could be speaking about the 'is heaven crowded with souls' kinda thingy... wonder if the ocean/heaven counted with globalization...
http://www.englishdaily626.com/stories.php?001

[GreenDog]

The "Kabala", not that I am an expert on the subject, says that the soul consists of five parts; Body, Spirit, Soul, (the essence of) Life, and Singularity (uniqueness). Of the later two I know nothing, but I have some knowledge of the first three.

The Body is the part responsible for all spiritual things that have a physiological or sociological basis, like feelings (sad or happy), liking or disliking someone, fear, instincts etc. All living things including plants and animals have this part.

The Spirit is the "animate" part, only animals and men have it (obviously), but it is quite different for men and beast. This part includes life itself- what moves us, the "real" desires imprinted by creation (no the physiologic ones), the desire of connection with the divine… (Not the need of having a higher power- this is in the first part).

The Soul is unique to people, it is the thing of which the bible speaks:" And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul". This is the divine part of men, the thing that makes us different from all other things upon this earth.

[subterranean]

Agree with yourr Dry. I mean, how come someone measure something, which is considered "spiritual" by using "material" things.



So, to answer your question: No, it probably was not the soul. It may very well have been the combined weight of the air they had breathed out upon death. It might have been them pissing their pants just a little. It could be any number of things and until the experiment is done again with proper results identifying what happened, I would classify the whole concept of a soul being measured in weight as improbable and therefore false. Interesting concept though.

[subluminus]

:crash: :smash: :as-sleep:
To me to deny the existance of a soul is to deny ones existance. I tend to see that to many people these day still refuse to acknowledge what they cannot see. I ask you, do you have heart. Everyone living asked this question should say yes, but what if I ask you to prove it. You cannot pull you heart from your chest and display it to me, nor, unless you are my doctor standing next to machinery that could give irrefuteable truth,(even at which is impractical), could you actually prove that you have a heart. But regardless of what proof you have, you would have to have a heart. Though this is a far cry in comparison to your soul, it is the same fundamental Idea. The fundamentals of matter and energy in this universe could be used to define that there is a soul. First to say, that all matter, and energy is neither created nor destroyed merely changes for.
When we die where does that energy once contained in that form go? Well, there is no obvious change in form. As far as I know we don't vaporize or spontaneously combust all though there would be much smaller graveyards. Some would argue that the energy remains in our bodies and that it changes through decay and reobsorption in the the ecocycle, but scientist now know that there is a unique energy in the body, that's lose and displacement can not be explained away by absorption and decay. Sometimes people who work in morgues have witnessed previously deseased retain body temperature for hours longer than normal in conditions that would normal indicate some form of energy resided there. Biologist do know that there are many catalysts that exist in the body to burn energy, adjust the temperature that chemicals react, and maintain fluid balance (osmotics), that put of energy when consumed, used or activated by the body. Sometimes these functions go on beyond the failure of most of the other body systems failure, but most of those functions require either: A. Circulation of blood in the body, or B. Concentrations of oxygen present in high enough volumes sustain the minimum function of body tissues, both of which are not present in post mortuum state. There is still a small blanket of mystery behind the reactions of tissue after death, but there has got to be an underlying reason.
People have began to study many new forms of energy in the human body, some of which can be measured and photographed. The healthy individual will put of registerable amounts of energy that can be measured, where as can not so from a body in poor health or brain death. There is thousands of years of evidence and study that has been put into the study of the human soul, and the mass concensus is that it is there, and people have even sought to further there understanding of it. All matter and energy has pattern, density and frequency. MSI (Multispectral Imaging) is one type of measuring technique that can tell the composition of matter based on the frequencies produced by energy focused at an object. And for hundreds of years man has been attempting to map all of the matter of the universe in hopes of unlocking it's secrets. As it is, there are unique qualities of every molecular combination that differ from the qualities of that objects fundamental units. This unique frequency is patterned to it's container and has energy, and can store energy and more patterns in the form of energy. Based on that, wouldn't it stand to reason that your body is a massive conductor or energy and frequencies. There you could imply that there is a nature of the energy of you that is different from your container. This energy is uniquely dense and diverse, and both similar and different to the container of this energy. It can then be said that if the property of the contain no longer moved and functioned like the container, I.E. Body death, or container destruction. That the unique energy of that container would be released. This is not a one dimesional universe and there is energy and conscienceness that extends beyond the scope of a single dimesion or phase of existance. Scientist therorize on the existance of Anti-matter, and though I am not well versed on their progress in said area, I do believe that like for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction that there is an opposite and equal matter and energy for everything. A molecule for all intents and purposes is action. Even in an inert, stationery state is motion. For it's motion there is and equal and opposite motion, I.E. Antimatter. Based on all we know about it, for matter and antimatter to come in contact that they would obliterate each other. I believe that there is an energy in the universe that prevents total annihilation by preventing this matter from interacting. This buffering matterial is paraventral energy, and it lubricates the fabric of space, and is a by product and precursor of the interaction of matter and antimatter. It is the molecular energy chewed up by the motion of matter and energy. This energy is matter and energy, and is unique and seperate as well as equal and similar. This is my basis for the human soul. The soul is the energy pattern left over from a unique and complex molecular form, and as the properties of all matter, that matter and neither be created nor destroyed, that this energy moves on and can posess our conscienceness, and maintain our previous form. Beside, I would rather be a happy fool who believes in a soul and an afterlife that an unhappy one who fears everyday growing closer to oblivion. I do believe that we chose what happens to us when we die, and that if we believe we were bad that we may very well condemn ourself. Thank you if you read all of this ^^

[baddad]

Energy can't be destroyed. But it can be converted. Nothing is leaving this plane of existence, including our 'soul'. Yes, we as life forces will be recycled. But we will be recycled here on earth (unless you choose to be shot up into outer space as your burial wish), recycled as the chemicals which make up our bodies. After a gazillion years the odds of those same molecules of chemicals reconstituting into a human form, or any form given the nod as having 'life', are about a BAZZILLION TO ONE. So, enjoy the ride, your only gonna get it once......IMHO....

[Dyrwen]

I never quite got how people started calling energies properties of human beings or life in general.

Matter is equivelant to energy, via E=Mc^2, but that doesn't mean that it is conscious or at all intelligent. Matter is atoms, for the most part, and energy is usually particles of sorts and interacting forces. I suppose if people want to go that far and say that our "life force" is kept in this matter, then sure, you've got yourself a working theory, but scientifically I just never quite understood how that transition made any sense.

[Miss Darcy]

Btw, We recall an experiment that We think was made by Japanese.
They put a dying man on an electron scale.
When the man died, then the scale made a really tiny jump. The living body was just a little bit heavier than the corpse.
Therefore, on the moment of death, something went out. Was it the soul?

Well, here's my five cents (they don't make one-cent pieces anymore in Australia :D). I believe in souls. Not in God or Heaven or Hell or anything like that, but I have some sort of idea of "fate" and definitely of something other than the physical. And the soul is part of this metaphysical realm. I don't, however, believe that the soul actually WEIGHS anything! The soul isn't material, it's something wholly different.

Hmm, who was it, was it...Socrates, I believe...Socrates thought that doing immoral acts damaged the soul. I have a similar idea. I think violence, whether real or imaginary (as in violent films), and well immoral things in general can, not damage, but weaken the bonds between the soul and the body. "Bad" people are victims of a bad environment, and the link between them and their souls is very thin. And through reincarnation (I do believe there is such a thing...or something of the kind, at least) the bond between the soul and the body grows, as they learn what is good and what is bad.

Well, that's pretty mumbo-jumbo, isn't it, but I'm in a hurry. That's all that came off the top of my head. Must head off to lunch,

Miss Darcy
(Or Mr Darcy if the Moon's fake)

[Adelheid]

That's true, there's no 1 cent pieces in Australia! But there is some in Singapore! :D

But I believe that God made us all each with a spirit, soul and body. After we die, (this is what I believe) our body returns to the dust, just as the Bible said. But our spirit and soul goes to either Heaven or Hell, and that depends upon us, whether we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour or not.

[Cassiopeia]

Souls...to have a soul. Science has really no solid evidence to prove souls...but I've never needed solid evidence to believe in something. So, I do believe in the existence of souls, per se. I have no clear definition of a soul, but the thought of simply being recycled energy and atoms can be a little depressing. ;) It may be idealistic of me, but I like to think that we are a little more than energy, that life is a little more than what science proclaims it to be...that we are more than science proclaims us to be.

I'm not sure if that made any sense, but that's okay. :)

[amuse]

rather than all the phlegm i would have typed heretofore, this is my answer, with as much brevity as i can summon forthe (which preface i expect to be longer than my reply :p :D):

I am Soul, therefore I AM.

[Jay]

My soul likes yours... therefore I like ya :p:D

[Rumi_Shams_One]

Nice saying everyone. I will say that soul exist and we have soul, our soul is from God, He is like a infinity ocean of soul, and we are like a drop of water, when we come in this world, we do good and bad, if you do bad you are like a drop of a water falling in a hot ground and you are gone, that drop evaporate and we did waste our life for nothing, but on the other hand if you are a good person and you do good, you are a drop of water and that drop of water will fall into the ocean of the soul of God and you will be safe. Now our knowledge and mind is like that drop of the water, doen'sat mather how hard we try to see the truth behind ourself, we might never get there, but once that drop fall into the ocean, then we will see the world with the eyes of that ocean.

[Ancestor]

Very interesting ideals here and one that may cause me to accidentally give me hoof an mouth disease. What if a person could feel the soul or spirit of another? How could you scientifically prove or disproof the person is capable of feeling the soul or spirit? Some say we have a soul and a spirit but for the life of me I cannot remember how my Uncle explained it to me. I would need a seance to have my Uncle explain it once again but knowing my Uncle he would not show up. Can anyone explain how a person can feel the illness of another and know what is wrong before doctors do? It is even possible? I would love to hear any opinions on those questions. I believe every one has a spirit and if you can answer my questions it will give a clue in why I believe in having a spirit.

[Ancestor]

Personally I would hate not having my spirit released after death because that means this is the absolute end of my life nothingness awaits me and that is a terrifying thought. The Universe seems to be endless and why can't life be endless in way. Just because our physical beings has a end does not meant life should end there. My spirit should be allowed to go onward and continue to learn more about life. It is awfully sad to think that life ends here and that there is no afterlife.

[adam kadmon]

Hi Rocksea, There are numerious awaiting 'souls' of evolved beings (lower forms who have moved up) for their incarnation to human vessels. (source: Theosophy) and your musing of animals posession of a soul seems justified. Although soul is a limited term, there are presumed to be seven apects of what we might deem soul. I am pleased anyone wishes to contemplate the possibility of a soul, let alone reincarnation. Best of fortune, ak

[adam kadmon]

Hi Ancestor, My feeling is that we/you are immortal (soul) but the present body must be vacated after a time, but what we learn, we do take with us, and enjoy the fruits of our study and experience. Best of fortune, ak

[Ancestor]

Hello adam kadmon welcome to the forum. I'm also fairly new and it has been an interesting experience so far. I feel the spirit of my late Grandfather all the time and it is a warm pleasant feeling. Love never seems to die either and one day I shall be reunited with all my loved ones again.

[adam kadmon]

Hi Ancestor, I admire your noting of your late relative's love, but we must always beware of elementaries, disembodied beings who are responsible for most evil some partake in. I don't wish to diminish your kin's memory, but many are fooled by them posing as benevolent recalls. Thank you for the welcome, and the presence of mind to even consider spiritual possibilities. I study thesophy, accounts of persons who have contact with Adepts (well past reincarnation, but offer guidance to seekers) and have compiled knowledge that may be reflected upon. With most respect to your chosen beliefs, ak

[Ancestor]

There is a way I can tell my family spirits from one that wishes do me harm. I am aware of those whom can harm me but I cannot understand why most people believe that most spirits are out to harms us. Are we so focused on evil we overlook the good? I respect everyone's ideals and I can even tell if a person who is living will harm me as well. I know how arrogant that sounds but I am not a arrogant person I just feel it and I have not been wrong yet. I know the strand that binds you together in life cannot be forged by evil in death your heart just knows. I believe that nothing can taint pure love for it is pure light.