Peace in Family.

[YALASH]

Peace be upon you!

In my opinion*, if parents take good care of children in terms of teaching them to keep upper hand for spiritual well being in life and show it by their own practical example, then children can stand against the evils of time.


From proper covering of body to other aspects of life best time to teach children is the very young age. If both parents have to work then very special care should be given to children’s spiritual uplift. According to Ahmadiyya caliph, striving is essential for spirituality, as mentioned in Quran:
And for those who strive in Our path – We will surely guide them in Our ways. And verily Allah is with those who do good. [Al- Ankabut v-70]


Cleansing the vessel of self is done by being gentle. Answering harsh words in same manner would be pitty. Patience and passionate prayer will help spiritual ill. Respondinging evil with good is goodness. Suppressing anger is bravery.

==
* originally 'humble opinion' changed to 'opinion' as a good friend suggested upon my humble request.

[Wintermute]

Peace be upon you!

In my humble opinion, if parents take good care of children in terms of teaching them to keep upper hand for spiritual well being in life and show it by their own practical example, then children can stand against the evils of time.

Your opinion doesn't seem humble to me:

Humble-

1. modest: modest and unassuming in attitude and behavior

2. respectful: feeling or showing respect and deference toward other people

3. lowly: relatively low in rank and without pretensions


You seem to have violated all of these definitions of humble in your opinion. Simply saying something is humble does not make it so.

I kind of agree, that parents need to set a good example for their kids. Not only in their actions, but also in telling them the truth--that no one knows, with absolute certainty, what is going on in the universe. But by practicing love and compassion to others on the planet they can achieve happiness.

Peace be upon you too!
Doug

[YALASH]

Peace!

Plz suggest a word for blank :

" In my -------- opinion, if parents take good care of children ......."
Thanks.

n.b: It is difficult to find proper words sometimes if english is not one's first language.

[Wintermute]

Peace!

Plz suggest a word for blank :

" In my -------- opinion, if parents take good care of children ......."
Thanks.

n.b: It is difficult to find proper words sometimes if english is not one's first language.

Hi there Yalash,

How about:

" In my opinion, if parents take good care of children ......."

Oh, and your English is fine--better than many I interact with daily who's one and only language is supposedly English.

Cheers,
Doug

[blazeofglory]

Peace!

Plz suggest a word for blank :

" In my -------- opinion, if parents take good care of children ......."
Thanks.

n.b: It is difficult to find proper words sometimes if english is not one's first language.

You come up with creative ideas, and they are illuminating and spiritually uplifting.

Keep up the spirit of it for ever.

[YALASH]

"Keep up the spirit of it for ever."

Thanks sir. Allah willingly . Amen

[blazeofglory]

I have read many of your articles, and you are amazingly
and your ideas are spiritually uplifting.

[Sam?]

Some, myself included, would consider indoctrinating your children when they are too young to have any cognitive defences as child abuse. You're brain washing them and narrowing their world view before they have a chance even to develop a world view.
If you must teach them about your religion, you should teach them about every religion, and explain that there's no proof for any of them. Then let your child grow up and make their own spiritual choices when they're old enough to think them through and decide for themselves.

[shakespere]

thanks very very much 4 ur feeling


its very nice my brother

[YALASH]

Peace!
Dear sam:

1= " If you must teach them about your religion, you should teach them about every religion, ...."

Ahmadiyya muslims focus on study of comparative religions and their site has a good book: - A BOOK OF RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE- which talks about aspects of many religions.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

2= " and explain that there's no proof for any of them. "

I would rather tell children that great proof of God and existence of religion is present in very Australia:

=Australia's culture, social and religious history can be traced back to 25000 years upto 40,000 years back or more.

=500 to 600 tribal units had history of social and religious development throughout 35 to 40 000 years. They were in isolation from each other except for occasional contacts at territorrial boudaries. These contacts were brief and ineffective in tranferring ideologies and beliefs to each other becuase of language barriers and their traditional dislike to communicate with outsiders.

= In each Aboriginal tribes of Austarlia, without exception, there exists a belief in one Supreme Power.

=Nowhere in Australia scholars could find any evidence of gradual making of idea of God. [ REVELATION, RATIONALITY, KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH ]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

3=Besides other arguments about presence of God, one is reality of revelation. Any divide between revelation and rationality, religion and logic has to be irrational. If religion and rationality cannot walk hand in hand, there has to be something seriously wrong with either of two.[ again above book focus on that] .

[Sam?]

Peace!
Dear sam:

1= " If you must teach them about your religion, you should teach them about every religion, ...."

Ahmadiyya muslims focus on study of comparative religions and their site has a good book: - A BOOK OF RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE- which talks about aspects of many religions.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

2= " and explain that there's no proof for any of them. "

I would rather tell children that great proof of God and existence of religion is present in very Australia:

=Australia's culture, social and religious history can be traced back to 25000 years upto 40,000 years back or more.

=500 to 600 tribal units had history of social and religious development throughout 35 to 40 000 years. They were in isolation from each other except for occasional contacts at territorrial boudaries. These contacts were brief and ineffective in tranferring ideologies and beliefs to each other becuase of language barriers and their traditional dislike to communicate with outsiders.

= In each Aboriginal tribes of Austarlia, without exception, there exists a belief in one Supreme Power.

=Nowhere in Australia scholars could find any evidence of gradual making of idea of God. [ REVELATION, RATIONALITY, KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH ]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

3=Besides other arguments about presence of God, one is reality of revelation. Any divide between revelation and rationality, religion and logic has to be irrational. If religion and rationality cannot walk hand in hand, there has to be something seriously wrong with either of two.[ again above book focus on that] .

Teaching your children about other belief systems while indoctrinating them in yours isn't enough. You must present all religious beliefs as equally valid with no focus on any one and let them choose their own faith, if any, when they are old enough to reason properly. Preferably some time in their late teens.

Either you don't know what you're talking about, or you're a liar, either way, what you said about Australian Aboriginal spiritual belief is utterly wrong. Culturally, Aborigines don't share their beliefs with outsiders at all. We don't know what they believe/believed. The dreamtime stories we do know are little more than their fairy tales.
In any case, that multiple cultures could indepedently invent monotheistic belief systems lends nothing to the truth of those systems. Most if not all cultures have a single ruler, it's hardly a revalation to take that model when creating your religion.

As to your last point, you only seem to be agreeing with me. Religion and rationality do not walk hand in hand, so there must be something wrong with ome of them. And since rationality is based on observeable data, it seems to me like it must be religion that's wrong.

[patrickbeverley]

I'm with Sam.

[YALASH]

Peace!

1 SAM = " Teaching your children about other belief systems while indoctrinating them in yours isn't enough. You must present all religious beliefs as equally valid with no focus on any one and let them choose their own faith, if any, when they are old enough to reason properly. Preferably some time in their late teens."

Answer= I think one of the basic reason of wide spread aethiesm and agnosticism lies in the fact that when modernly educated children grew up they found their religion ( i am not talking about Islam) could not walk with new knowledge. Holy Quran has about 750 verses asking believers to ponder on nature:

Verily, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the day, and in the ships which sail in the sea with that which profits men, and in the water which Allah sends down from the sky and quickens therewith the earth after its death and scatters therein all kinds of beasts, and in the change of the winds and the clouds pressed into service between the heaven and the earth - are indeed Signs for the people who use their understanding. [chapter 2, verse 165]

If anyone teaches children how to eat, how to live life, how to stay away from harmful things, how to obey law of land etc, then he or she can rightly feel to let chldren know about spiritual things too. And it is natural that children, latter, will decide to continue or leave the paths of parents. By grace of God, most muslim children choose to continue to stay with thier parents religion since they find it going well with modern knowledge and also it gives them guidance on various issues of life.

=======================================

2 SAM = " Either you don't know what you're talking about, or you're a liar, either way, what you said about Australian Aboriginal spiritual belief is utterly wrong. Culturally, Aborigines don't share their beliefs with outsiders at all. We don't know what they believe/believed. The dreamtime stories we do know are little more than their fairy tales.
In any case, that multiple cultures could indepedently invent monotheistic belief systems lends nothing to the truth of those systems. Most if not all cultures have a single ruler, it's hardly a revalation to take that model when creating your religion."

Answer= my words
*500 to 600 tribal units had history of social and religious development throughout 35 to 40 000 years. They were in isolation from each other except for occasional contacts at territorrial boudaries. These contacts were brief and ineffective in tranferring ideologies and beliefs to each other becuase of language barriers and their traditional dislike to communicate with outsiders.*

Am i not saying that practically they do not like to communicate with each other ( except very very little contact is possible in which they did not transfer any knowledge to each other)

Respectfully, i will not pass any personnal comments.

The point is :
Tribes did not transfer any knowledge of diety to each other, yet independently they believe some kind of Power Supreme.

You think "it's hardly a revalation to take that model when creating your religion."

Do you mean to say religion is man man thing and is not started with revelation?

If you think that simaltaneous but very independent to each other, beleif of tribe people of Australia just a product of their own then you stand against the scholars who think that idea of God is evolved through ages.

Where do you stand ?

Aborigines belief did not come from no where!


And We did raise among every people a Messenger with the teaching, 'Worship Allah and shun the Evil one.' Then among them were some whom Allah guided and among them were some who became deserving of ruin. So travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who treated the prophets as liars!
[ch 16 , v 37]

Religion and Unity of God is established with revelation, latter generations corrupt till the next reformer comes. I find Noah bringing message of God, his progeny in distance lost it. Then Abraham launched huge struggle based on revelation for Unity of God so on and so forth.

You think "it's hardly a revalation to take that model when creating your religion." Is that same as scholars say...idea of God is man made? which i am contardicting in above lines.

========================================

3 SAM = "As to your last point, you only seem to be agreeing with me. Religion and rationality do not walk hand in hand, so there must be something wrong with ome of them. And since rationality is based on observeable data, it seems to me like it must be religion that's wrong."

Answer= again we are on different fequencies! Where in God's world i meant so? Could you missed this my sentence:

*Besides other arguments about presence of God, one is reality of revelation. Any divide between revelation and rationality, religion and logic has to be irrational.*

I do not say about others but for Islam, it perfectly goes with rationality. And to make short i presented online book -- REVELATION, RATIONALITY, KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH --which discusses and challanges such issues.

========================================

4= After all being said, according to Islam there is no compulsion in religion, so if you disagree with me, that is absolutely your God given right but i will surly will feel pain. [Ahmadiyya muslims are reformers.]


Regards.

[Ohmyscience]

Hey Yalash as good as your intentions may be what did you mean by you will feel pain? I hope you do not mean that you feel sorry for Sam?'s atheistic belief. In my most humblest of opinions that is not humility.

I share your sentiments Sam. It seems obvious to me if there is truth to any religion it would be universal and uniform. Last time I checked mechanics, relativity, and quantum mechanics can be verified by everyone if they chose to. Of course only on a tentative level...

[Sam?]

Yalesh, you don't seem to have understood what I'm getting at.

First, children are biologically designed to believe whatever adults tell them, it's a necessary feature to keep them alive. But it means that, should you tell them one religion is true, they will believe you, and that belief will likely form the basis of all thought from then on. Hence why most people raised in one religion stay in that religion. You're robbing them of the chance to make up their own minds before they're ready to. This is a crime, in my eyes. If you're so confident in your religion, then there's no need to brainw ash defenceless children.

Second, you've missed my point in a huge way here. Your understanding of Aboriginal spiritual belief is completely wrong. They never, before the arrival of white man, believed in a singular supreme being. I'll repeat that for emphasis. Australian Aborigines, before the arrival of white man, never believed in a singular supreme being. None of their traditional beliefs are anything like Islam or Christianity. At all. Your imformation is just wrong.
And I do indeed believe religion is man made. Even you must believe that every other religion but yours is man made, right? Religion was simply mankind's way of explaining natural occurances before we had science. It is no longer needed, except to comfort those afraid of their own mortality and scared of thinking for themselves.

Third, you brought up Noah, so I'll go on with that. The global flood myth cannot possibly have happened. Every single aspect of it is irrational. It cannot go hand in hand with rationality, therefor, according to your own logic, your religion is broken.

[sprinks]

Second, you've missed my point in a huge way here. Your understanding of Aboriginal spiritual belief is completely wrong. They never, before the arrival of white man, believed in a singular supreme being. I'll repeat that for emphasis. Australian Aborigines, before the arrival of white man, never believed in a singular supreme being. None of their traditional beliefs are anything like Islam or Christianity. At all. Your imformation is just wrong.

Yeah, thats what we always learnt at school. They had their Dreamtime stories to explain how things came to be, never ever ever ever did they believe in a "singular supreme being".


And I do indeed believe religion is man made. Even you must believe that every other religion but yours is man made, right? Religion was simply mankind's way of explaining natural occurances before we had science. It is no longer needed, except to comfort those afraid of their own mortality and scared of thinking for themselves.
I agree with that too

[YALASH]

Peace be upon you friends!

PART-1
Children are our extensions. We do not just put in front of them all kind of food to choose from. According to our understanding we help them to have the best. Similarly if we think we do have soul too, we help them in spiritual ways too. That is not crime. If latter children find religion of parent is not satisfying them they leave it.

================================================== =======

PART-2

Supreme being : You are stressing --- " I'll repeat that for emphasis. Australian Aborigines, before the arrival of white man, never believed in a singular supreme being. None of their traditional beliefs are anything like Islam or Christianity."-----

Respectfully, let me say I found references against that, which i can not paste here so i try to write briefly manually:

(1) = The Congregationalist Geoge Taplin was determined to convert Aboigines but he judged they traditionally believed in a Supreme Being, who made the world and prescribed rituals. George insisted that their conception of God was different from the Christian one.


(2) = Schmidt saw totemism (the belief in individual or clan kinship with an animal, plant, or object) as the basis of genuine religion, for its primitive practitioner not only believed himself ‘protected by the animals’ but also ‘humbl[ed] himself to them in prayer’.

And he agreed with Lang that the most primitive of peoples had not required contact with Christian missionaries to develop ‘knowledge of a Supreme Being as Creator, Protector of the world, and Lawgiver to man’.

Reference for above two: Chapter 4. Interpreting Aboriginal Religion
From nineteenth-century evolutionism to Durkheimian sociology
Henrika Kuklick

------

(3) = Key Beliefs -- Indegenous traditions --Austarlian aborignal and Torres stait islanders:

= Earth is eternal and many ancestral figures or beings who inhabit it are eternal too.

= These beings are often associated with particular animals, for example Kangaroo-men andr Bowerbird-women.

= As they journeyed across the face of the Earth these powerful beings created human, plant and animal life and they left traces behind.

= They also connected particular groups of people with particular regions and particular languages.

= Some groups had belief in A Supreme Being.

= The Dreaming continues which control the natural world.

Reference: Religion & Ethics -- abc dot net dot au

------

(4) =
The aboriginal tribe, the Bad, of the West Kimberly area, Western Australia, revered "A Supreme Being" called DJAMAR. Tradition says he manifested in a way highly suggestive of "something" landing and leaving behind a physical record.

Reference: PROJECT 1947 FORUM

------

(5) =

The basic idea of A eternal Supreme Creator remains unadulterated by whatever other superstitions they may have entertained. The superstitions change from one tribe to another, but not their belief in one God. Nowhere in Australia could the sociologists and scholars find any proof of a gradual evolution of the idea of God.

The views prevailing among the different australian aboringnal tribes differ only in description. The Wiimbaio tribe, for example, believed that while engaged in the process of the creation of earth, God remained close at hand but having finished His work He ascended back to the highness of the constellations. Similarly, the Wotjobaluk tribe believed Bunjil to be a Supreme Being, who once lived on the earth as a great man but eventually ascended to sky.

Reference: REVELATION, RATIONALITY, KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH
(online book, easliy searchable)

------

(6) =

Our people, before the white man came were very spiritual people. . Our people were connected to land and creation through the great spirit, there was a good great and a great evil spirit........ And Satan was the great evil . So there wasn't much difference in what the missionaries brought and what we already had... .

Reference = Wadjularbinna Doomadgee, Gungalidda Leader, Gulf of Carpentaria, 1996.

------

(7) =
In 1792, Governor Phillip left the colony and when Governor King arrived in 1800 he initiated the policy that settlers could fire on any ‘native’ they saw.

Phillip, Hunter and King the following governors, all described their daily life in journals, but failed to obtain any information about Aboriginal peoples’ social and religious life.

In this way the colonists failed to understand that although Aborigines didn’t believe in the white man’s ‘God’, they did have their own ‘Supreme Beings’ with sandstone and rock drawings showing their religious beliefs. "

Reference: Barani Indigenous History of Sydney City.

================================================== =======

Part-3

NOAH - He was a holy prophet of God, according to Quran, with same message which all prophets brought. After some time, the leaders of nation told him:

O Noah, thou hast indeed disputed with us and disputed long and often; bring us now what thou threatenest us with, if thou art of the truthful. [ ch 11, v 33 partly]


The people of Noah rejected the truth before them; they called Our servant a liar and said, 'He is a madman, afflicted by our idols. [54, 10]


He left with his followers in large boat.

After the water lowered, his boat stoped and he was said:

O Noah, descend then with peace from US and blessings upon thee and upon peoples to be born of those with thee. [ 11, 49 partly]


And We, certainly, sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand years, short of fifty years. Then the deluge overtook them, while they were wrongdoers. [29, 15]

To us, 950 years is a metaphoe for period of his influence, just as period of holy Moses was 1400 plus.

There is no unusual thing in holy Noah's matters, prophets of God speak against evils of time, leaders stand against them since they see them as future threat. After some verbal disputes and getting persecution, prophets and followers migrate from the place while opponents mock and start their work at other place.

================================================== =====

PART - 4

Idea of God is not man made. Please see this topic in my post Allah / God in this forum posted on 05-07-2008, 02:39 AM .

Regards.

[togre]

Some, myself included, would consider indoctrinating your children when they are too young to have any cognitive defences as child abuse. You're brain washing them and narrowing their world view before they have a chance even to develop a world view.
If you must teach them about your religion, you should teach them about every religion, and explain that there's no proof for any of them. Then let your child grow up and make their own spiritual choices when they're old enough to think them through and decide for themselves.

Sam? would you let children decide whether arsenic is poisonous on their own, or whether the interstate would make a nice playground or whether twinkies and Mt. Dew are an adequate diet? Yet, do you flail your arms and scream "Child Abuse!" or "You're stifling them!" should some one impose their ideas with regards to these matters?

Your point of view is only valid if you have determined previously that the worldview being imposed is invalid.

In fact, not teaching them a specific set of beliefs is in and or itself teaching the children to view specific worldviews as not important, interchangeable or false, and is therefore an indoctrination in and of itself.

A person is going to teach children something about the nature of people, the universe and God. They are un-caring if they do not take the effort to teach that point of view they are convinced is correct.

[clumsy angelle]

A strong foundation of faith must be made in childhood. However, I believe that spiritual growth happens with maturity. Experiences can either make or break faith.

[Sam?]

Sam? would you let children decide whether arsenic is poisonous on their own, or whether the interstate would make a nice playground or whether twinkies and Mt. Dew are an adequate diet? Yet, do you flail your arms and scream "Child Abuse!" or "You're stifling them!" should some one impose their ideas with regards to these matters?

Your point of view is only valid if you have determined previously that the worldview being imposed is invalid.

In fact, not teaching them a specific set of beliefs is in and or itself teaching the children to view specific worldviews as not important, interchangeable or false, and is therefore an indoctrination in and of itself.

A person is going to teach children something about the nature of people, the universe and God. They are un-caring if they do not take the effort to teach that point of view they are convinced is correct.

It is a fact that arsenic is poisonous. However many times you test it, you will always come to the same result. Teaching this to your child is necessary.
There is no mote of evidence that any religion is correct, and I would contest that if anything, your method teaches children to see specific world views as not important more than mine does.
I suggest teaching kids about all religions, and explaining that each of them is just as plausible/implausible as the others. Teaching them what we know for fact, so that when they are old enough to make up their own mind, they are equipped to do so.
You suggest telling them that one religion is right, before they have the capacity to adequately question you, and in doing so, you are robbing them of the knowledge of every other religion, and perhaps robbing them of the religion that is best suited to them, by telling them it's false whilst they're still at the stage of believing everything you say.
I suspect my children will know more about Islam, Buddhism and ancient Egyptian mythology than yours, just to name a few belief systems.

[Deng Xiang]

Peace be upon you!

In my opinion*, if parents take good care of children in terms of teaching them to keep upper hand for spiritual well being in life and show it by their own practical example, then children can stand against the evils of time.

I concur that parents are the God of their children,as they teach them all their knowledge.Excellent.




Precisely,at the young age,they must have been taught.If not,they would have the habit of doing evil things,putting their lives in peril.

[Within Me]

well, Life is the only school for childern.
It gives what parents can not give.
Parents teach children the typical moral lessons,but life is way beyond The Mom & Dad "Schooling".
Kids should be given the freedom to choose.It would be quite devistating if you force a kid to obey a certain belief,that he himself find it "weird to him".That would lead to serious problems.And what i mean by "kids" is not 2 or 3 years kids.
Religions would sound like "prisons" if you make or FORCE somebody to have it.
But unfortunately the life we are living is "what is" not "what should be"
That`s why some people are obliged to have a certain life caused by and it really hurts me to to say it.."caused by typical beliefs".

[blazeofglory]

Peace be upon you!

In my opinion*, if parents take good care of children in terms of teaching them to keep upper hand for spiritual well being in life and show it by their own practical example, then children can stand against the evils of time.


From proper covering of body to other aspects of life best time to teach children is the very young age. If both parents have to work then very special care should be given to children’s spiritual uplift. According to Ahmadiyya caliph, striving is essential for spirituality, as mentioned in Quran:
And for those who strive in Our path – We will surely guide them in Our ways. And verily Allah is with those who do good. [Al- Ankabut v-70]


Cleansing the vessel of self is done by being gentle. Answering harsh words in same manner would be pitty. Patience and passionate prayer will help spiritual ill. Respondinging evil with good is goodness. Suppressing anger is bravery.

==
* originally 'humble opinion' changed to 'opinion' as a good friend suggested upon my humble request.

I do not know which religions you come of your ideas are always humble and something full of humility.

[Within Me]

well, Life is the only school for childern.
It gives what parents can not give.
Parents teach children the typical moral lessons,but life is way beyond The Mom & Dad "Schooling".
Kids should be given the freedom to choose.It would be quite devistating if you force a kid to obey a certain belief,that he himself find it "weird to him".That would lead to serious problems.And what i mean by "kids" is not 2 or 3 years kids.
Religions would sound like "prisons" if you make or FORCE somebody to have it.
But unfortunately the life we are living is "what is" not "what should be"
That`s why some people are obliged to have a certain life caused by and it really hurts me to to say it.."caused by typical beliefs".

[blazeofglory]

Peace be upon you friends!

PART-1
Children are our extensions.

I never subscribe to in fact oppose this idea. It is absolutely wrong to think that children are our extensions. Children are never our extensions and they have in point of fact a separate identity or existence apart from ours.

Read a poem by Khalil Gibran, a mystic on Children and everything will be clear to you and you will not make a mistake of repeating the same word calling children your extensions.