Bill Gates Speech

[pussnboots]

a friend sent me the following and I thought how true: any comments ?

Love him or hate him, he sure hits the nail on the head with this! Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about 11 things they did not and will not learn in school. He talks about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.


Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

Rule 2 : The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3 : You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4 : If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

Rule 5 : Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time..

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

[Pensive]

Heh nice. Quite true actually, leaving aside the fun element.


Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

:lol:

That's the best of all!

[Captain_Kuchiki]

These are pretty good points. Schools coddle kids too much to make them feel better, but they'll feel much worse when they suddenly encounter life's toughness. It's better to get them ready sooner. It may seem mean, but it is actually the best course.

[Shalot]

I'd like to add my own to his speech:

Work will suck the life right out of ya, so instead of working for some nerd who is still harboring old high school resentments and taking it out on you, figure out what you need to do to not work there...

Just a thought. I agree with some of his points actually, but a lousy job is a lousy job is a lousy job. and I'm sorry, but flipping hamburgers is not an opportunity. You work at a hamburger place so that you can figure out that you don't want to be working there because you don't have any other options. So let's call a fast food job what it is - a short term job that you won't be in forever (and you likely won't put it on your resume...)

[kilted exile]

I think there is another point he misses:

Work is not life. Work is the crap you have to put up with in order to have a life.

[blazeofglory]

a friend sent me the following and I thought how true: any comments ?

Love him or hate him, he sure hits the nail on the head with this! Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about 11 things they did not and will not learn in school. He talks about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.


Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

Rule 2 : The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3 : You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4 : If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

Rule 5 : Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time..

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

magnetic ideas

[Virgil]

I love all eleven of these. I could highlight all of them, but let me pick this one:

Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

That sums it up.

[mtpspur]

Heres one stolen from a Marvel comic book: "Sometimes the good guys lose." (title from a Nick Fury Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D story from Strange Tales 137 I believe circa 1966. Taking it from memory.

[Sweets America]

a friend sent me the following and I thought how true: any comments ?

I don't really like some of these ideas.


Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

If everyone had always followed this saying, no one would have fought to end things like slavery, racism and the like. Go tell victims of such things that life is unfair and that's all. ;)
I don't like fate. I think that people can indeed make things change to a more fair system, but they just don't dare doing so.


Rule 2 : The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

I want to say something to the world but that would not sound appropriate here.


Rule 3 : You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

This one's witty, I must say! :p


Rule 4 : If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

This one sounds true, but that is because of the fact that people apply rule 1.


Rule 5 : Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.

However I'm not sure it's really worth it to spend a lifetime doing this. As I implied somewhere in my blog, I think I would prefer being homeless. Or deciding that I don't like life here and committing suicide. Flipping burgers is ok though if it's only for some time, just like I know my summer job is only for summer.


Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is.


Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

This one is the most despicable one, I think. Trying to make kids feel guilty for the life of their parents is really nasty. I'm not sure that parents who put all the misery of their life on their kids' backs should have had kids in the first place. This rule gives a stereotypical image of kids.


Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

I find this one witty, like rule 3. That's scary, too. But maybe life is not as harsh as it is depicted here...


Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time..

I agree.


Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

True..but people are not compelled to go to jobs. Or they can try and manage to find one which is interesting to them.


Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

Funny! :p

[Niamh]

I love all eleven of these. I could highlight all of them, but let me pick this one:


That sums it up.
I agree with that one too Virg. :nod: no matter how much people try to convince themselves other wise, at the end of the day Life is not fair, so you are better off getting use to it.

I think there is another point he misses:

Work is not life. Work is the crap you have to put up with in order to have a life.
Well said!

[Sweets America]

I agree with that one too Virg. :nod: no matter how much people try to convince themselves other wise, at the end of the day Life is not fair, so you are better off getting use to it.

My point was just that of course life was unfair, but that instead of sitting there and getting used to it, one might as well try and make things evolve. I don't see the point in accepting something that you think is wrong? You don't have to accept it, no one has to.

[Nightshade]

I have a couple of things to add too, re the first point yeah life is unfair people need to accept that stop whining about it and get on and actually make something of it other wise its just a a waste!

Secondly don't actually agree with you kilted, I think if you can the get a job you love doing ( like me!!:D) because like it or lump it you significant amount of your life working and it IS a part of your life, then you will be happy or at leats not miserable.
And if you are stuck in a job you absolutely LOATHE try and make the bets of it and dont broad over the awful things :nod:

[kilted exile]

However I'm not sure it's really worth it to spend a lifetime doing this. As I implied somewhere in my blog, I think I would prefer being homeless. Or deciding that I don't like life here and committing suicide. Flipping burgers is ok though if it's only for some time, just like I know my summer job is only for summer.

Wow. Cant believe I'm actually reading this. You'd rather be homeless than flip burgers??? This kind of attitude turns my stomach (and it takes a lot to do that).

I dont know it may the repressed socialist in me or something, but that goes against all common courtesy & decency as far as I'm concerned. What on earth makes you so special that flipping burgers is beneath you? What about the people who do spend their lives doing jobs like flipping burgers or spend their days loading & unloading boxes from trucks? Whether you meant to or not you have just implied that their life is worthless, where do you get any authority to pass judgement on how people live their lives? I have good friends who are in these "unskilled" jobs, they work damn long hard hours to pay their bills & in cases provide their kids with the extra tiny things most of us take for granted, what they do takes greater strength than I have. I would say that I hope the next time you buy a burger the flipper spits in it, but I aint that mean.

Next up: When was the last time you spoke to somebody who was homeless? Next time you do, ask them if they enjoy being homeless or if they would welcome the chance to flip burgers instead. I am going to guarantee now that over 90% of homeless people would bite your hand off for the cahnce of ANY employment. The other 10% will probably comprise the ones with mental health issues. Nobody chooses to be homeless, try spending one night on the streets, you wont say anything like that again

[Shalot]

I feel the need to add something to what I said earlier about the hamburger job:

My first job was making hamburgers. I didn't actually flip the burgers - I put the toppings on. And I had to clean the rug with the stupid vacuum cleaner that didn't pick up the crud - I turned it on and pushed it across the busy patterned rug (on purpose to hide ketchup and mustard and grease and other funk). I had to mop the floors with the greasy mop. I asked for a new mop and I informed the manager that the vacuum didn't work, but new cleaning supplies weren't in the budget. Then again, if people wouldn't mop up grease with the mop, then we wouldn't have needed a new mop all the time, but that's beside the point (the cat litter was hidden - and the grease was pooled - I guess someone kept reasoning that it was better to spread the grease all over the floor rather than let it sit there until the cat litter could be located :rolleyes: ). And I cleaned the bathrooms. It was revolting. But I have to agree that having that job would be better than being homeless, because you had access to food....

I was very lucky to have worked there, and I was even more fortunate to have the opportunities to do other things...I know I whine sometimes, but I am truly grateful that I was able somehow to not have to do that. Of course, I say that now, but things could happen, and I could end up working in the food service industry again. It's hard work, it barely pays, there's no health insurance and I swear, there are some people who come into stores and restaurants and decide that they want to push these employees around -they're easy targets they reason. Or maybe they have a grudge against that particular chain...I don't know what possesses people to be such butts. There's noone lower than the person who hassles the cashier...

But, it is a job. I can't say that it's an opportunity across the board though. There might be someone who can start in at the bottom and work up somehow - or at least that's what they told us at every orientation I ever went to during my string of minimum wage jobs... I guess the idea is to motivate the worker bees while they're there.

But yeah, I'd rather work at a hamburger joint than be homeless. But you do have to have an address to get a job at the hamburger joint. A social security number is good too. You need a phone where you can be reached (so that they can call you and tell you when to report to work). You need to have transportation - you can't work if you can't get there. If someone doesn't have those things, they can't be expected to report to work. And they want you to be clean when you go to a job - that's true for most any job. A homeless person can't exactly pull that off. And that's is why I can agree with what both Sweets and kilted are saying up there somehow.

Life is tough, but you've got to be good-hearted enough to give someone a boost, which is what I think Sweets is saying. And then once you get your basics needs met, you've got to be gritty enough to endure it and realize that no one is going to just let you waltz into your dream job, which is what I think is the point of Bill Gates' statements. (and also, coworkers can be difficult and competitive and cutthroat, but that's a whole other issue).

If you're like me, who is lucky, you can work at a hamburger place when you're 16, and decide that you can do more. Some people just don't have that luxury I guess.

[Joreads]

When Bill Gates said Flippin Bugers is an opportunity I don't think that he meant that you could work your way up there - although if you can do that great. It looks good on your CV if you worked while studying, it shows committment and that could be the difference between you and the next person. Everything is an apportunity if you look at it the right way.

As to wanting to be homeless rather then flip burgers says IMO I would rather not work then do something I did not like. I am sure there would be quite a few homeless people willing to take your place and they deserve it more.

[papayahed]

I was very lucky to have worked there, and I was even more fortunate to have the opportunities to do other things...I know I whine sometimes, but I am truly grateful that I was able somehow to not have to do that. Of course, I say that now, but things could happen, and I could end up working in the food service industry again. It's hard work, it barely pays, there's no health insurance and I swear, there are some people who come into stores and restaurants and decide that they want to push these employees around -they're easy targets they reason. Or maybe they have a grudge against that particular chain...I don't know what possesses people to be such butts. There's noone lower than the person who hassles the cashier...


I used to flip Taco's, I've always said that one of my retirement goals is to go back and work part time in a fast food restuarant. My goal is to not take all the crap, I probably will be let go very quickly but what fun I'll have while I'm there.

[Virgil]

I didn't flip burgers, but I did stock the produce section in a supermarket. Plus I delivered newspapers from 13 years old through college (so yes I was doing two jobs while going to college full time). There is no shame in work. It earns respect. I frankly have no respect for bums.

[Nightshade]

I frankly have no respect for bums.

Unless of course it is through no fault of their own they cant get a job ?
But yes people who scrounge off their parents and expect life to just give them things are beyond annoying , its like wake up! whatll you do when you are through uni if you have no work experiance, you cant get a job without it anymore. :nod:

[Virgil]

Unless of course it is through no fault of their own they cant get a job ?


I'm not talking about a person out of work for six months to a year. I'm not talking about someone out of school starting out. I'm talking about someone who's chronically out of work, living off others/society pretty much permanently. There are people this way.

[Nightshade]

I'm not talking about a person out of work for six months to a year. I'm not talking about someone out of school starting out. I'm talking about someone who's chronically out of work, living off others/society pretty much permanently. There are people this way.
granted, but I wasnt talking about either of those top groups either I was talking about the chronically ill, or people who simply can't get jobs because of the social views of them as a person. the last Im fairly sure there are discrimination acts against in many countries but it does still happen in places.

[Virgil]

granted, but I wasnt talking about either of those top groups either I was talking about the chronically ill, or people who simply can't get jobs because of the social views of them as a person. the last Im fairly sure there are discrimination acts against in many countries but it does still happen in places.

Oh, I'm not talking about chronically ill either. Heck, my father went blind (both eyes completely) in mid life and could not work. I understand that.

[motherhubbard]

I used to flip Taco's, I've always said that one of my retirement goals is to go back and work part time in a fast food restuarant. My goal is to not take all the crap, I probably will be let go very quickly but what fun I'll have while I'm there.

A huge part of me would love to work at taco bell. I love taco bell so much, it's my favorite place to eat. The last two times I was pregnant I drove in to town every day to eat there. Every time I go there I kind of wish I worked there, but one of my first jobs was in fast food and it was such a horrid job!



I didn't flip burgers, but I did stock the produce section in a supermarket. Plus I delivered newspapers from 13 years old through college (so yes I was doing two jobs while going to college full time). There is no shame in work. It earns respect. I frankly have no respect for bums.


Virgil, there are people who could work and don’t or that do work but don’t keep a job. Usually these people have backgrounds in generational poverty and that is not easily overcome. Very few people are able to move from generational poverty to middle class without someone mentoring them every step of the way. One often has to leave behind their entire family. The are programs that are very effective in helping people make the transition, but they are sadly under funded. It’s my opinion that if we were to make a larger investment on the front end it would save so much money on the back end and that we would be a better and stronger people as a result.

[stlukesguild]

I don't really like some of these ideas.

Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

If everyone had always followed this saying, no one would have fought to end things like slavery, racism and the like. Go tell victims of such things that life is unfair and that's all. I don't like fate. I think that people can indeed make things change to a more fair system, but they just don't dare doing so.


Whether you like it or not the real world is not fair. Jacka**es win the lottery, marry an heiress, run the companies that you may end up working for, run the country. Good people sometimes are born into poverty, must struggle to get by; must put forth twice as much effort to make it to college and to earn a degree... might even end up in dead end jobs, are sometimes abused by others, sometimes die early. The point that was being made is that unlike school... where one is often coddled... no one cares when you whine about something not being fair in the real world. The world is not going to simply change its way to suit you.

Rule 2 : The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

I want to say something to the world but that would not sound appropriate here.

Again... do you actually think the real world gives the least bit of care about what you might have to say? Self-esteem is one of those things we coddle most in our schools. Many schools have done away with "failing" grades because they might mar a child's fragile sense of self-worth. We have had "social promotion" for generations (in spite of research that proves it actually is harmful more often than not to the student), graduating students who cannot yet master certain skills... or who simply don't do the work... because to so other wise might hurt their little feelings. IT is expected that everyone is shown with respect... no matter how many times certain students prove that they are undeserving of such in consideration of their lack of respect shown to others. As a result, American students have a far greater opinion of themselves than students from most other nations... in spite of the fact that their actual abilities in many fields lags well behind students in the rest of the Western world. When you enter the real world no one is going to regularly commend you on what a great job you are doing even if you are doing such (more likely they'll catch every mistake, though). No one is going to give you a promotion or a raise in spite of your inability to do the job well, simply in order to caress your fragile ego. Respect... positions... achievements must be earned (or you must have the right connections... its "who you known and who you ..." see no. 1)

Rule 4 : If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

This one sounds true, but that is because of the fact that people apply rule 1.

Yes... you are getting it. The boss lives in the real world. His or her primary concern is his/herself: or the bottom line: money. The boss doesn't care about your precious self-esteem, and why should he/she? Not unless it impacts productivity and $$$. The real world is fiercely competitive... "elitist."Companies are competing with each other and individuals with other individuals. If you are not up to the competition... not willing to put forth the effort, there is an endless supply of others just waiting for the opportunity.

Rule 5 : Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.
However I'm not sure it's really worth it to spend a lifetime doing this. As I implied somewhere in my blog, I think I would prefer being homeless. Or deciding that I don't like life here and committing suicide. Flipping burgers is ok though if it's only for some time, just like I know my summer job is only for summer.

Gates didn't say it was a lifetime career choice. He stated it was an opportunity. An opportunity is what you make of it. Many think that such low-paying dead-end jobs are beneath them... and they would rather sit at home watching soaps and collecting Welfare. Others will take such a job and use the money to go to college or perhaps start their own business. Again see point no. 1: not everyone is going to be handed that glamour job right out of school.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.
Sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is.

No. If YOU mess up, it's YOUR fault. It's not your parent's or society that is to blame when YOU make the mistake. You expect the acclaim or the rewards when you achieve something of merit, then you must take the responsibility for your failings... and hopefully learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

This one is the most despicable one, I think. Trying to make kids feel guilty for the life of their parents is really nasty. I'm not sure that parents who put all the misery of their life on their kids' backs should have had kids in the first place. This rule gives a stereotypical image of kids.

It would seem that you have responded rather with a stereotypical view of adults (their "nasty" life). What Gates is pointing out is something multi-fold: First of all, many high-school and college students have the perception of their parents as "boring". The reality is that children only see that part of their parent's lives that they are shown. Most parents have a life beyond that which their children can imagine. They have/had friends, experiences, goals... a sex life:eek: beyond what you know. They don't tell or show you everything. At the same time, there are aspects of parents lives that their children imagine as being unideal that are essentially a result of having made the decision to take on the responsibility of raising children. This responsibility places certain demands and sacrifices upon parents. Parents do not expect your undying gratuity for this, nor are they out to lay a guilt trip on you about this. It was their decision. Gates is saying that you should not be quick to judge your parents lives (anyone's lives) when you don't know everything about them and you haven't been it their position.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

I find this one witty, like rule 3. That's scary, too. But maybe life is not as harsh as it is depicted here...

It is meant to be scary... because it is the truth. Schools may have gotten away from posting grades in a manner where one could easily see who was at the top of the class... and who was at the bottom. They may have gotten away from "failing" a student who cannot or more often will not do the work... but that is not what goes on in the real world. Some people live in gates communities. Some people live in housing projects. Don't assume that this is in any way fair (ie. deserved) or that it doesn't apply to you as well as everybody else.

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

True..but people are not compelled to go to jobs. Or they can try and manage to find one which is interesting to them.

Uh... yeah. No one is compelled to work. They can always live off Welfare... or perhaps their own good looks (Well... actually that might be possible if they marry the right person. "Who you know and..."). And of course you can always search for that job that is "interesting"... or perhaps go into business for yourself... but you will rapidly discover that every job is a job. It has a great deal of aspects that aren't "interesting"... that aren't fun. And your choice is simply to do what must be done... or don't get paid.

[Virgil]

Virgil, there are people who could work and don’t or that do work but don’t keep a job. Usually these people have backgrounds in generational poverty and that is not easily overcome. Very few people are able to move from generational poverty to middle class without someone mentoring them every step of the way. One often has to leave behind their entire family. The are programs that are very effective in helping people make the transition, but they are sadly under funded. It’s my opinion that if we were to make a larger investment on the front end it would save so much money on the back end and that we would be a better and stronger people as a result.

Are you saying that there is no investment up front? I can probably go and count tons of investment, and no matter how much more investment keeps being asked for and provided, the results seem to be the same. I once saw how much welfare was spent from the 1960's great society programs to a few years ago and it was in the multi trillions of dollars. Good God, you could have given hundreds of thousands of dollars to every single person on welfare. And the trillions of dollars does not include the education system, job training programs, drug rehab programs, and whatever other transition programs exist. When is the asking for more investment going to stop? What will make people satisfied?

The best single action to actually make a dent in the cycle of poverty was the 1995 Welfare Reform Act that said, you have five years max (two years consecutive) to be on welfare or else you will get cut off permanently. It was at that point the state governemtns actually found jobs for people on welfare and that had to take them, depending on local programs. That is the single most effective legislation ever to have worked.

Stop the coddling crap. You've got to kick people in the behind.

[stlukesguild]

Virgil, there are people who could work and don’t or that do work but don’t keep a job. Usually these people have backgrounds in generational poverty and that is not easily overcome. Very few people are able to move from generational poverty to middle class without someone mentoring them every step of the way. One often has to leave behind their entire family. The are programs that are very effective in helping people make the transition, but they are sadly under funded. It’s my opinion that if we were to make a larger investment on the front end it would save so much money on the back end and that we would be a better and stronger people as a result.

Mostly I would argue that the investment should be made in education... and perhaps this would entail smaller classrooms for urban and poverty-ridden rural settings where discipline could be controlled and students could be reached more one-on-one. I would also argue for classes that teach students real-life skills involving getting and keeping a job, maintaining a checking account, etc... I'm very wary, however, of using generational poverty as any sort of excuse. It takes the responsibility away from the individual and places it on their parents and on society, which I don't accept. I teach in just such an environment and know that in every class there are those who will do will because they have made the right choices and put forth the effort... in spite of the fact that the environment they come from is just as challenging as anyone else's.

[Sweets America]

Wow. Cant believe I'm actually reading this. You'd rather be homeless than flip burgers??? This kind of attitude turns my stomach (and it takes a lot to do that).

I dont know it may the repressed socialist in me or something, but that goes against all common courtesy & decency as far as I'm concerned. What on earth makes you so special that flipping burgers is beneath you? What about the people who do spend their lives doing jobs like flipping burgers or spend their days loading & unloading boxes from trucks? Whether you meant to or not you have just implied that their life is worthless, where do you get any authority to pass judgement on how people live their lives? I have good friends who are in these "unskilled" jobs, they work damn long hard hours to pay their bills & in cases provide their kids with the extra tiny things most of us take for granted, what they do takes greater strength than I have. I would say that I hope the next time you buy a burger the flipper spits in it, but I aint that mean.

Next up: When was the last time you spoke to somebody who was homeless? Next time you do, ask them if they enjoy being homeless or if they would welcome the chance to flip burgers instead. I am going to guarantee now that over 90% of homeless people would bite your hand off for the cahnce of ANY employment. The other 10% will probably comprise the ones with mental health issues. Nobody chooses to be homeless, try spending one night on the streets, you wont say anything like that again

Erm. Well, nice to meet you too. :)

When I read this:


I would say that I hope the next time you buy a burger the flipper spits in it, but I aint that mean.

I think that you might not be the best person to give me lessons concerning decency and courtesy. ;)


What on earth makes you so special that flipping burgers is beneath you?

I didn't say I was 'so special'. But honestly, I can say that I think I'm worth something better than spending my life flipping burgers, that's all. Now you can call me arrogant if you like, but I think most of us think that we have the abilities to do something else.

I'm not against doing a crappy job as I'm actually doing one right now, but what motivates me is that I know it's only for the summer, and that it will bring me money to fulfill my dream. What I would not like doing, however, would be working a crappy job without a goal other than that of paying the bills and surviving. I just don't see the point of spending my life doing this. Please note that I'm only talking about my life, not the lives of the others, and in no way am I judging what they do with their lives, because we all have different goals, different dreams, different possibilities and different visions of life.

Of course my view of things might sound strange because I find it so strange myself, what humans have made of the world. I just feel that it would be worthless for me to have come to this planet only to spend a human lifetime doing something horrible and having trouble paying bills. I just find the concept absurd.

stlukesguild said

Whether you like it or not the real world is not fair.

Yes, I agree with this. It's just that there are two different responses to this statement. Some people say "life is unfair, and so what?" and I say "life is unfair, well, let's try and make it better!". Maybe I'm overly optimistic or idealistic, but that's in my nature.


Many schools have done away with "failing" grades because they might mar a child's fragile sense of self-worth. We have had "social promotion" for generations (in spite of research that proves it actually is harmful more often than not to the student), graduating students who cannot yet master certain skills... or who simply don't do the work... because to so other wise might hurt their little feelings.

I agree that this is not right. I want to be given the grades that I deserve, grades that represent my skills, I don't want to be given false grades.


When you enter the real world no one is going to regularly commend you on what a great job you are doing even if you are doing such (more likely they'll catch every mistake, though).

That's false. In all my working experiences, bosses have told me that they were happy of my work and have always been encouraging. People are not always as mean as you portray them here.


Yes... you are getting it. The boss lives in the real world. His or her primary concern is his/herself: or the bottom line: money. The boss doesn't care about your precious self-esteem, and why should he/she? Not unless it impacts productivity and $$$. The real world is fiercely competitive... "elitist."Companies are competing with each other and individuals with other individuals. If you are not up to the competition... not willing to put forth the effort, there is an endless supply of others just waiting for the opportunity.

That's exactly the kind of world that I dislike. A materialistic one where people are like kleenex that you can dispose of. That's part of the absurdity I was refering to earlier.


No one is compelled to work. They can always live off Welfare.

I'm not saying I would live on welfare, I'm just saying I would prefer ending my life if I saw there was no point to it. I'm going to go on trying to make it what I want it to be.

[Scheherazade]

win the lottery, marry an heiress, run the companies that you may end up working for, run the country. Heck, they might even be running the Forums you are a member of!!!

Regarding unemployment... I have many students in my classes who are only there because they are desperately trying to get a job but they do not have the necessary (minimal) qualifications to do so. And once you are out of the employment loop, it becomes much more harder to get a job. Everyone wants to hire someone with as much experience as possible.

I also know people who cannot afford to get a job:
The jobs they can get do not offer them enough pay for them to live on with their families so they have to get the income support. It is unbelievable but it is so.

[Shalot]

Of course my view of things might sound strange because I find it so strange myself, what humans have made of the world. I just feel that it would be worthless for me to have come to this planet only to spend a human lifetime doing something horrible and having trouble paying bills. I just find the concept absurd.

It is absurd and would be totally horrid. But, I am beginning to think that there are lessons to be learned in life even though it might seem like all you're doing is working for wages that don't cover all your bills. I can totally see how someone could say that they would rather commit suicide than live like that. Hopefully, if I ever find myself in that situation I have some kind of inner strength to get out of it, or come to terms with it mentally.

And, I am not making fun of you with this, but I was just reading your sentences up there, isolated from the rest of your post, and it's funny how you said your view of things might sound strange because of what humans have made of the world and you would feel it would worthless you to have come to this planet only to spend a human lifetime doing something horrible and having trouble paying bills...the way you phrased it, it sounds like you're some kind of alien observing earthlings and then interacting with the rest of us on this board. So, I was wondering, are you an alien, and if so, do you know if time travel is possible? If so, can you come and get me, because I have some things I want to do and undo.

If you're not an alien, just ignore that. I've had my face in a cost schedule and a statement of cash flows all morning practically. (test later today). I needed a break and got on litnet and typed a ridiculous post and since I've spent so long typing it, I am going to go ahead and post it. :)

[motherhubbard]

Are you saying that there is no investment up front? I can probably go and count tons of investment, and no matter how much more investment keeps being asked for and provided, the results seem to be the same. I once saw how much welfare was spent from the 1960's great society programs to a few years ago and it was in the multi trillions of dollars. Good God, you could have given hundreds of thousands of dollars to every single person on welfare. And the trillions of dollars does not include the education system, job training programs, drug rehab programs, and whatever other transition programs exist. When is the asking for more investment going to stop? What will make people satisfied?

The best single action to actually make a dent in the cycle of poverty was the 1995 Welfare Reform Act that said, you have five years max (two years consecutive) to be on welfare or else you will get cut off permanently. It was at that point the state governemtns actually found jobs for people on welfare and that had to take them, depending on local programs. That is the single most effective legislation ever to have worked.

Stop the coddling crap. You've got to kick people in the behind.

Virgil, I totally understand your frustration and I agree that sometimes people need a kick. I also agree with the welfare reform act of ‘95.

I’m talking about something different and I’m going to make an effort at articulating that, but I doubt I’ll be successful. I think that one of the best investments we make in out country is public education. We can’t expect to be a great nation or a strong people if the masses are uneducated. I believe that a good education is the key to overcoming the cycle of poverty. My state ranks pretty low in education. We have a high poverty rate and a low graduation rate. Half of our state’s income is spent on education. Teachers and children can’t bear the responsibility alone. Parents need to be responsible for the education of their children. I wish there were some accountability for the parents. Sadly, in many situations, parents had a poor educational experience and view school as something to endure until you’re old enough to drop out rather than the solution to a problem. If you are a high school English teacher with six classes each containing 25 students you’re lucky, but you only have about half a minute to devote to every student. Most students, especially students living in poverty, have no help at home. They don’t have pencils, clean surfaces at which to study, a clam environment conducive to concentration, resources for assistance, or food in their bellies. We can’t expect hungry children to excel. Some communities have after school and summer programs that target at risk children, but it’s hard to find funding. If every community offered this think of the difference that would make. Would spending an extra 1000 a year on each student reduce the cost of welfare and prison and wouldn’t the income from educated employees generate more money for the government? I hardly call spending money on children coddling, but if it is I’m all for it. I’m guilty of being a child coddler so bad. At the same time, my children have a great deal of responsibilities and few of the same luxuries that many children have. I believe that it builds character for children to be responsible for chores or pets, to volunteer, to do without the crap that many kids believe they are entitled to and so on.

Now, I think that it should not be the responsibility of the government and there for the tax payers to feed and clothe every child in the nation. But I know that there are many children who simply will have to do without necessities because of the neglect that often stems from generational poverty. It’s something like the cycle of abuse. Many of us resolve our problems, behave in relationships, and have an outlook on live based on what we observed from our parents. It’s true that many people learned how not to behave, but that’s not the norm.

Consider Maslow’s hierocracy of needs

http://steve-ball.net/Portals/0/Maslows%20Hierarchy%20of%20needs.png


In these families there is often not enough money for food but usually enough money for cigarettes and liquor. We can’t punish the children for that. We also can’t just take all of the children in this situation from their families. If we could make an investment in the parents and at the very least encourage some kind of participation in parenting classes and life management courses it would pay off in the end. I attend parenting classes twenty eight weeks a year through my volunteer work. Some of those parents need more, but I can’t fault the children. I know that there are children who will end up in prison, I see them and talk to them on a regular bases and I know it has everything to do with their upbringing. But I can only blame their parents for so long and then they are accountable for themselves. But, they have been given no tools to combat what has been instilled in them from their infancy. Funding here would save all kinds of money as well, but there is less and less of it each year.


This is part of what I think. It got long so I’m going to stop here and see what you have to say.



The jobs they can get do not offer them enough pay for them to live on with their families so they have to get the income support. It is unbelievable but it is so.

I worry a lot about people working for minimum wage and who must pay 4.00 for gas and 4.00 for milk. I don’t know how they make it. I think it’s unfair to say that they should be more careful with their money when there isn’t enough for gas to work and food. I also worry about elderly people. It’s true that many choose between food and medicine and the cost of both keep going up.




Mostly I would argue that the investment should be made in education... and perhaps this would entail smaller classrooms for urban and poverty-ridden rural settings where discipline could be controlled and students could be reached more one-on-one. I would also argue for classes that teach students real-life skills involving getting and keeping a job, maintaining a checking account, etc... I'm very wary, however, of using generational poverty as any sort of excuse. It takes the responsibility away from the individual and places it on their parents and on society, which I don't accept. I teach in just such an environment and know that in every class there are those who will do will because they have made the right choices and put forth the effort... in spite of the fact that the environment they come from is just as challenging as anyone else's.

I would hardly call their environment just as challenging as anyone else’s. Please! If your dad is molesting you or beating you, if you are starving, if you have no water or electricity then your environment is more challenging than someone who has a loving mother and father who provides balanced meals or medical care. If you know where you will be living TONIGHT, then your life is not just as challenging as some six or eight year olds.

I can’t blame a child or an adolescent for their economic status. I’ve also worked with high school students who have overcome their poverty. Most of them have at least one adult in their life who supports them. I also see many with potential that end up getting pregnant or who are expected to drop out to work. An adolescent can’t be expected to make grown up decisions and do better than their grown up role models. First of all they lack the mental function and second of all they lack the tools and life experience. Of course there are exceptions. There was a former slave that became a rich land owner by sharecropping but we certainly couldn’t expect that of every sharecropper.

Having said that, I am one to say to adolescents from this situation that they will have to make a decision and work harder than other students. They must push themselves to have a better life.

[Nightshade]

Regarding unemployment... I have many students in my classes who are only there because they are desperately trying to get a job but they do not have the necessary (minimal) qualifications to do so. And once you are out of the employment loop, it becomes much more harder to get a job. Everyone wants to hire someone with as much experience as possible.

I also know people who cannot afford to get a job:
The jobs they can get do not offer them enough pay for them to live on with their families so they have to get the income support. It is unbelievable but it is so.

And this is what I was talking about!
Anyway to move to the next point I wanted to talk about Rules 6&7

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.
Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room. this one is beyond true I think, thers a guy I know in RL - and cant stand- who is always bad mouthing his parents and basically treats them like dirt, and at the same time while he was at uni his mother used to do all his cooking for him and send it to him once a week and probaly his washing too knowing him. And he has absolutely no trust in them or appreciation, in fact he yelled at me the other day ( yes unfortunately this means he is here with me and I'm stuck with him for 13 weeks :( - but Im thinking of it as a growing exercise) because I mentioned to my friend what with all the money crisis I was having my mum has all my bank details and is keeping an eye on my online banking as I dont trust this network "Never ever give your details to anyone especially your parents , blah blah blah " to which I replied you are a sad sad person ,, I could have added I also have all my mums bank details in my head had to sign when she got the mortgage and am register as the next of kin/guardian of my two youngest sisters should anything happen to her and my dad, but I refrained from that.
But yeah definitely learn from your/our mistakes and better yet if you/we can learn from other peoples mistakes, stop whining and get doing things if you stand around whining all the time all the opportunities will pass you by and whose fault is that ? The whiner!

[Virgil]

This is addressed to Mother-Hubbard:

One of these days i'm going to explain how my parents were immigrants with no more than an elementary school education and in mid life my father went blind and we were as poor as possible. You couldn't get poorer than us. Look through some of my biographical statements I've spoken about myself and my family throughout the forum and you can see that it doesn't take more than effort and opportunity and not getting mixed up with drugs or crime to make a half way decent living in this country. Granted, rural areas lack opportunity. Unfortunately people in rural areas will have to move out or attract companies to move there. But for the most part I fail to understand how a person cannot get an education or work hard to get a head. All my aunts and uncles came to this country as immigrants and at most they had a high school education. They all own very nice homes and live an above average middle class life. My uncle worked in a glue factory for over forty years and then a few nights a week and weekends worked in a supermarket part time. He owns a home in New York, and you know the prices of homes in NYC are not trivial. That glue factory was not in NYC but in Long Island, so my uncle had at least an hour's commute. So literaly he left his house before six in the morning and on nights where he worked at the supermarket didn't get home until 10 PM. Not even for a minute do I believe that anyone cannot at least be middle class in this country.

[Sweets America]

And, I am not making fun of you with this, but I was just reading your sentences up there, isolated from the rest of your post, and it's funny how you said your view of things might sound strange because of what humans have made of the world and you would feel it would worthless you to have come to this planet only to spend a human lifetime doing something horrible and having trouble paying bills...the way you phrased it, it sounds like you're some kind of alien observing earthlings and then interacting with the rest of us on this board. So, I was wondering, are you an alien, and if so, do you know if time travel is possible? If so, can you come and get me, because I have some things I want to do and undo.

If you're not an alien, just ignore that. I've had my face in a cost schedule and a statement of cash flows all morning practically. (test later today). I needed a break and got on litnet and typed a ridiculous post and since I've spent so long typing it, I am going to go ahead and post it. :)

:lol: That's grand! I don't feel like you're making fun of me because I have always felt like an alien anyway. :D I was thinking about this just some minutes ago. I am always in some kind of detachment in how I see the world, and I was just telling a friend that I felt like a doggie, puzzled, at a loss, looking at humans as they are walking around and doing their strange stuff with their strange jobs and their strange money and all the strange stuff they like consuming. That's how I feel, that's how I've always felt, that's how my views sound strange and sometimes totally immoral to some people. :alien: (could not do without the emoticon, could I?)

I actually intended to write a bloggy entry about this some days ago and did not take the time to do so. I'll eventually do it.

Ah, I'm sorry but I cannot reveal anything to you about time travel and such, because so far I've spent my life asking questions and questionning answers.:)

[motherhubbard]

This is addressed to Mother-Hubbard:

One of these days i'm going to explain how my parents were immigrants with no more than an elementary school education and in mid life my father went blind and we were as poor as possible. You couldn't get poorer than us. Look through some of my biographical statements I've spoken about myself and my family throughout the forum and you can see that it doesn't take more than effort and opportunity and not getting mixed up with drugs or crime to make a half way decent living in this country. Granted, rural areas lack opportunity. Unfortunately people in rural areas will have to move out or attract companies to move there. But for the most part I fail to understand how a person cannot get an education or work hard to get a head. All my aunts and uncles came to this country as immigrants and at most they had a high school education. They all own very nice homes and live an above average middle class life. My uncle worked in a glue factory for over forty years and then a few nights a week and weekends worked in a supermarket part time. He owns a home in New York, and you know the prices of homes in NYC are not trivial. That glue factory was not in NYC but in Long Island, so my uncle had at least an hour's commute. So literaly he left his house before six in the morning and on nights where he worked at the supermarket didn't get home until 10 PM. Not even for a minute do I believe that anyone cannot at least be middle class in this country.

Virgil, I really do understand what you are saying. I grew up very poor as well- really I’m still pretty poor ;) But we were raised with something that you won’t find generational poverty and that is a strong work ethic. I have held two full time jogs more than once in my life and I guess you know I’m a saver and not a spender. I agree that when a person comes from situational poverty like parents who are immigrants, there is every opportunity. But if you’ve never been taught that work in a necessity then you will have a hard time embracing it.

My mother was so very poor growing up. There were seven children and my grandmother and great grandmother. My grandfather left to find work and was absent for much of their upbringing. The effects of poverty is still very evident in each of my mom’s brothers as well as in herself, but they all work hard and do very well. A couple do a little better and a couple not so much, but they all had to work from the time they were very young. My mother’s mother was raised with money, but trouble happened and men died and property wasn’t managed well. The difference in generational poverty and situational poverty is not so much in money as it is attitude and direction.

Several years ago I went out to a reservation to do some mission work. Talk about generational poverty! I can’t even begin to describe the situation. Ten miles away there is work so why don’t they go to work? I finally understood that if you’ve never had anything but you’ve always made it to the end of the month it’s a very scary thing to drop everything and embark on the unknown- you MAY not make it to the end of the month. Change is a very scary thing.

I can’t imagine how your parents must have felt. I’m sure they had faith that through hard work they could get ahead. I doubt they bought alcohol and tobacco when there wasn’t enough food to feed the children. I’m sure your mother needed that garden (and I bet it still makes her feel better so maybe you should go dig a trench :) ) And I’m also sure that your education was very important to them. It's different.

[Virgil]

Virgil But if you’ve never been taught that work in a necessity then you will have a hard time embracing it.
Agreed.


The difference in generational poverty and situational poverty is not so much in money as it is attitude and direction.
You assume that some program can just magically teach this. I don't know how this is taught. It seems to me you just have give a kick in the butt and make people work and build that work ethic.


I can’t imagine how your parents must have felt. I’m sure they had faith that through hard work they could get ahead. I doubt they bought alcohol and tobacco when there wasn’t enough food to feed the children. I’m sure your mother needed that garden (and I bet it still makes her feel better so maybe you should go dig a trench :) ) And I’m also sure that your education was very important to them. It's different.
Well, actually my father was into cigarettes and wine but they didn't cost as much then as now. My mother didn't have a garden then. We rented a house, and not all our landlords were always that understanding. The garden she has now is from a house we bought for my parents after all the children had established themselves.


Change is a very scary thing.
Tell me about it. Immigrants who come to this country without hardly any money and not knowing the language. That takes courage and will.

[pussnboots]

When I started this thread I didn't think it would create such a discussion as it has. All who have posted comments have made vaild points. It's just unfortunate that society as a whole has come to accept these things as normal and until people start changing their mindset it will just continue. Parents (not all) need to start taking an active role in their child's life and not expect society, teachers or the government to do it for them.

[stlukesguild]

What on earth makes you so special that flipping burgers is beneath you?

I didn't say I was 'so special'. But honestly, I can say that I think I'm worth something better than spending my life flipping burgers, that's all. Now you can call me arrogant if you like, but I think most of us think that we have the abilities to do something else.

You ego or sense of self worth is fine. We all need it... but what Gate's was saying is that people who run the businesses don't care about your ego. They have responsibilities (to their families, to their creditors, to their investors who trusted in them enough to loan them money). If you are worth so much more than flipping burgers you are going to have to work to convince others of this... and along the way you just might start out working in such a job as flipping burgers in order to gain the experience or the money needed to get where you want to be.

Of course my view of things might sound strange because I find it so strange myself, what humans have made of the world. I just feel that it would be worthless for me to have come to this planet only to spend a human lifetime doing something horrible and having trouble paying bills. I just find the concept absurd.

It may be absurd... but its reality for a good majority. You trade off your time, labor, knowledge, and skills in order to gain something you desire: a roof over your head, food, the money you need to go to school or start your own business or whatever you imagine as being your personal goals.

When you enter the real world no one is going to regularly commend you on what a great job you are doing even if you are doing such (more likely they'll catch every mistake, though).

That's false. In all my working experiences, bosses have told me that they were happy of my work and have always been encouraging. People are not always as mean as you portray them here.

It is not false. You have simply been lucky so far. Don't expect that every employer or boss will be so concerned with your self-esteem, and never assume they will nurse your ego when you don't deserve it.

Yes... you are getting it. The boss lives in the real world. His or her primary concern is his/herself: or the bottom line: money. The boss doesn't care about your precious self-esteem, and why should he/she? Not unless it impacts productivity and $$$. The real world is fiercely competitive... "elitist."Companies are competing with each other and individuals with other individuals. If you are not up to the competition... not willing to put forth the effort, there is an endless supply of others just waiting for the opportunity.

That's exactly the kind of world that I dislike. A materialistic one where people are like kleenex that you can dispose of. That's part of the absurdity I was refering to earlier.

You can call it "materialistic" all you like, that will not change the fact that it is also the way things are. To expect otherwise is naive. Employers and the executives that manage their businesses all have responsibilities to their families, their creditors, their investors. They also have their own goals. They wish to live in a certain degree of comfort and wish for the same for their families. Their goals are no more "absurd" than yours. To expect them to abandon their goals in favor of yours... that is absurd.

No one is compelled to work. They can always live off Welfare.

I'm not saying I would live on welfare, I'm just saying I would prefer ending my life if I saw there was no point to it. I'm going to go on trying to make it what I want it to be.

Perhaps you think so now. Would you be so quick to say the same if you had the responsibility for the well-being of a family or children? I am not saying... nor was Gates saying that we live in the "best of all possible worlds". I am not saying that things could not be improved or that you should not strive to do so if and when possible. I am not saying abandon your ideals. What I am saying... and what Gates was saying... is that this is the way the world operates. Its not the same as school. Its not the same as when you have yet to reach adulthood and you are cared for by your parents. What Gates was doing was saying that your own success or failure, however you measure that, is your own responsibility. The world doesn't owe you a thing and the world doesn't play fair. Some will have to work far harder than others to attain what they desire in life. For others it all comes easy. But again... life isn't fair.

[motherhubbard]

It's just unfortunate that society as a whole has come to accept these things as normal and until people start changing their mindset it will just continue. Parents (not all) need to start taking an active role in their child's life and not expect society, teachers or the government to do it for them.

very well said!:thumbs_up

I don’t think anything is magically taught. But if we can instill this in people from their youth and work with parents at the same time then in a generations time there will be a difference. Remember that in the beginning I agreed with you about the welfare reform act. I’m glad that we have a safety net for people who fall on hard times or who have disabilities, but I don’t like the idea of people who are capable of working choosing to live off of the government instead. I know that is a harsh statement, but it is a reality. I’m in no way insinuating that we shouldn’t assist people in need.



Well, actually my father was into cigarettes and wine but they didn't cost as much then as now. My mother didn't have a garden then. We rented a house, and not all our landlords were always that understanding. The garden she has now is from a house we bought for my parents after all the children had established themselves.

I'm going to make another assumption here and I hope I do better with this one :)

I just doubt that your father would have spent money on cigarettes and wine when his children didn't have food or the lights had been shut off. There are many fathers who will use the rent money to gamble or drink when there is nothing- really nothing- to eat and the second evection notice has been served. It's one thing to have a drink, it's another thing to have a drink instead of taking care of responsibilities.



Tell me about it. Immigrants who come to this country without hardly any money and not knowing the language. That takes courage and will.

It's overwhelming to even think of doing something like that. It's a story I would love to hear from the beginning - before they even thought of it - all the way up to now. I wish you would tell that story some time, Virgil.

[Virgil]

I'm going to make another assumption here and I hope I do better with this one :)

I just doubt that your father would have spent money on cigarettes and wine when his children didn't have food or the lights had been shut off. There are many fathers who will use the rent money to gamble or drink when there is nothing- really nothing- to eat and the second evection notice has been served. It's one thing to have a drink, it's another thing to have a drink instead of taking care of responsibilities.

You're absolutely right. My father budgeted himself down to the cigarette and glass of wine. He knew how many cigarettes a day he could afford and how many glasses of wine for the month he could have. He actually kept count.


It's overwhelming to even think of doing something like that. It's a story I would love to hear from the beginning - before they even thought of it - all the way up to now. I wish you would tell that story some time, Virgil.
Perhaps in a blog entry some day. Probably in pices over time. Thanks for your interest.

[Shalot]

You're absolutely right. My father budgeted himself down to the cigarette and glass of wine. He knew how many cigarettes a day he could afford and how many glasses of wine for the month he could have. He actually kept count

It's good that your dad could actually control himself with the cigarettes. As a former smoker and relapsed quitter (think about that), I am well aware of the fact that they're so addictive.

[Virgil]

It's good that your dad could actually control himself with the cigarettes. As a former smoker and relapsed quitter (think about that), I am well aware of the fact that they're so addictive.

When you only have so much money, you've got no choice.

[barbara0207]

When you only have so much money, you've got no choice.

That's what you think - because of your upbringing. It seems that your parents were good role models; they taught you a strong work ethic, a sense of responsibility for your own life and they valued education highly. My parents, who were very poor, did the same. They made sacrifices to send their three children to grammar school - even me, the girl (most parents at the time thought girls didn't need much education as they'd marry anyway). They wanted us to have better opportunities than they had. Pity they didn't live to see that they succeeded. (By the way, my father was into cigarettes, too, but we never went hungry because of that.)

But it seems that there are more and more parents who do not instil these values into their children and who neglect their children's basic (food), emotional (love) and educational needs. These people live off of the state's money, often for the third generation or more, and they think they have the right to it. This is what they teach their children - people who work are stupid, school is a waste of time, teachers are idiots and shouldn't be listened to. More and more parents send their children to school without breakfast but if you look at their apartments, they have a large high end TV screen, stereo, playstation, you name it. Some of the neglected and misled children make it into a steady job all the same but most of them don't.

Having said all that ( and I could go on and on about it :) ) I'm wondering if it is still to the point, that is, the prupose of the OP. But I'll post it anyway. Perhaps I'll still find the missing link ...