June / Greece Reading: "Odyssey" by Homer

[Scheherazade]

In June, we will be reading Homer's Odyssey:
With the Trojan war finally over after many long years, Odysseus wants nothing more than a swift journey home where his throne and beloved wife, Penelope, await him. But Poseidon, the sea god, bears a grudge against him and plans to prevent his return across the wine-dark sea to Ithaca. Many tests of strength and character ensue as Odysseus's journey stretches out over the years, taking in a multitude of strange and wonderful places and creatures. That's the basic plot of the epic poem Homer told nearly 3,000 years ago, but, even now, a new English translation is a true literary event. The ancient story is told in easy-going, beautiful poetry, the characters speak naturally and the action moves along briskly. Even the gods come across as real people, despite the divine powers they constantly exercise. The Odyssey really is a gripping, fast-moving read.http://www.amazon.co.uk/Odyssey-Penguin-Classics-Homer/dp/0143039954/ref=pd_sbs_b?ie=UTF8&qid=1212483471&sr=1-2



Book Club Procedures (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=57103#post57103)

[Virgil]

Ok, I'll have to pull out my copy. I will be using the Fagles translation.

[_Shannon_]

I haven't read Fagles yet so I think I'll read that, too--if I can stand it. (I'm more of a Lattimore kinda gal)

[bej6s]

Does anyone have a recommended translation?

I found Buckley translation online as well the one on this website, which is Butler. However, I found a list in my library, including:
McCrorie
Merrill- in dactylic hexameter
Alexander Pope
Hammond
Fagles
Murray
Rieu

Also, do you prefer prose or dactylic hexameter verse?

[slobone]

Fitzgerald used to be the translation used most frequently in schools. I really don't see the point of writing dactylic hexameter in English, except as a stunt.

[NickAdams]

I'm new to Greek mythology. The only familiarity I have comes from television, film and Edith Wharton, so I find the Gods reaction to mans concept of them interesting. Does it say something about mans creation of myths? Does human guilt decrease when there are Gods to blame. The Gods reaction makes man seem sovereign. This polytheistic pantheon seems like a promotion of individualism and speciality.

I am still on the first book, but find the plot more intriguing than The Aeneid. Homer creates urgency with Penelope's story. As the suitors get restless and Odysseus makes his way home the tension will mount.

Now for the absurd. Have you seen Office Space Antiquarian? Imagine Odysseus as Milton Waddams and Poseidon as Bill Lumbergh.

[_Shannon_]

Does anyone have a recommended translation?

I found Buckley translation online as well the one on this website, which is Butler. However, I found a list in my library, including:
McCrorie
Merrill- in dactylic hexameter
Alexander Pope
Hammond
Fagles
Murray
Rieu

Also, do you prefer prose or dactylic hexameter verse?
It really depends on what you prefer... The big three of the modern era are Fitzgerald, Lattimore and Fagles.


Now for the absurd. Have you seen Office Space Antiquarian? Imagine Odysseus as Milton Waddams and Poseidon as Bill Lumbergh.:lol:

[Niamh]

Oooohhhh! I best go get a copy! :D

I have the Pope translation of The Illiad, so might see if i can get his version of Odyssey

[NickAdams]

:lol:

I want to bring something fresh to the text for those who have read the book numerous times, so I think I will apply my own brand of criticism: pop-criticism.

So the Jedi council, or the Gods if you want to be nitpicky, send their messenger Jar-Jar Binks to tell Telemachus that his fathe,Milton Waddams, is being held in the cellar but will be returning to his cubile kingdom for his stapler and cake.:banana:

[Niamh]

I want to bring something fresh to the text for those who have read the book numerous times, so I think I will apply my own brand of criticism: pop-criticism.

So the Jedi council, or the Gods if you want to be nitpicky, send their messenger Jar-Jar Binks to tell Telemachus that his fathe,Milton Waddams, is being held in the cellar but will be returning to his cubile kingdom for his stapler and cake.:banana:

:lol:

[NickAdams]

Has anybody heard of the Telegony?

Virgil:
I remember that we were trying to date the action in the Aeneid. How about we do a comparitive study? Two figures I think might work are Hermes and Poseidon.

[_Shannon_]

I want to bring something fresh to the text for those who have read the book numerous times, so I think I will apply my own brand of criticism: pop-criticism.

So the Jedi council, or the Gods if you want to be nitpicky, send their messenger Jar-Jar Binks to tell Telemachus that his fathe,Milton Waddams, is being held in the cellar but will be returning to his cubile kingdom for his stapler and cake.:banana:
ROFL!

[Scheherazade]

I remember that we were trying to date the action in the Aeneid. How about we do a comparitive study? Two figures I think might work are Hermes and Poseidon.
Aeneid group and the Book Club are different groups and please keep in mind that not everyone who takes part in BC readings has read Aeneid. It might be hard for them to follow the discussion.

Having said that, maybe you might like to bring it up in the Aeneid discussion thread.

[Virgil]

Virgil:
I remember that we were trying to date the action in the Aeneid. How about we do a comparitive study? Two figures I think might work are Hermes and Poseidon.


Aeneid group and the Book Club are different groups and please keep in mind that not everyone who takes part in BC readings has read Aeneid. It might be hard for them to follow the discussion.

Having said that, maybe you might like to bring it up in the Aeneid discussion thread.

Hey Nick, I think that's great idea. Perhaps we could do it in the Aeneid thread gven what Scher said.

[Quark]

I was actually rereading Book V from the Iliad to look at the sections with Aeneas when I realized that we were reading Homer in the Book Club. How is that going? Are there many people involved? I'll try to post some comments on the poem when I find time, but right now I'm too caught up in other threads.

[NickAdams]

Scheherazade : sounds about right.:D

I wonder if the ancient Greeks thought of this tale in a religious context. I wonder what someone might learn from the text. What conduct does this story teach, what are the virtues? Is this this a stoic philosophy?

[bej6s]

Ok, I'm already on Book 2, reading the Fagles translation. (Thanks for the translation recommendations, guys.)

I was wondering, is there somewhere online or some text that can go as a supplement to the Odyssey, like how Shakespeare texts can come with notes on the opposing page. It's just been a long time since I took Latin or Greek and I can't remember much of the mythology, so the references to other characters go right over my head.

[JBI]

Is there no list in the back? I know for the Fagles Aeneid there was a great extensive glossary, does your edition not have one for the Odyssey?

[NickAdams]

Ok, I'm already on Book 2, reading the Fagles translation. (Thanks for the translation recommendations, guys.)

I was wondering, is there somewhere online or some text that can go as a supplement to the Odyssey, like how Shakespeare texts can come with notes on the opposing page. It's just been a long time since I took Latin or Greek and I can't remember much of the mythology, so the references to other characters go right over my head.

Pantheon.org
I'm not too familiar with the mythology either, so I'm creating my own index: names, relations, actions, omens.

[ggeneraux]

I was hoping to get the Iliad finished (I'm on Book 13) before beginning The Odyssey, but it looks like I need to go ahead and start, putting Iliad on the back-burner, lest the discussion get too far along for me to catch up and participate.

Also, earlier in this thread there was a thread mentioned on Aeneid, which I haven't been able to find. Is that thread still active, or simply buried hopelessly to the point where my searching is in vain?

[NickAdams]

I was hoping to get the Iliad finished (I'm on Book 13) before beginning The Odyssey, but it looks like I need to go ahead and start, putting Iliad on the back-burner, lest the discussion get too far along for me to catch up and participate.

Also, earlier in this thread there was a thread mentioned on Aeneid, which I haven't been able to find. Is that thread still active, or simply buried hopelessly to the point where my searching is in vain?

It's still active and can be found here: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31392

[Virgil]

Alright. Now it's time to find my book.

[Weisinheimer]

Ok, I'm going to try it. Got a copy of the Fagles translation from the library. I have a feeling I'll be hopelessly lost, but I'll give it a shot.

[bej6s]

Is there no list in the back? I know for the Fagles Aeneid there was a great extensive glossary, does your edition not have one for the Odyssey?

You are right. I just assumed since there weren't footnotes or superscript numbers throughout the text that there wouldn't be any notes in the book. Thanks!

[DapperDrake]

Well, I'm just about to start on the Fagles translation; I have the penguin "Deluxe" edition replete with chewed page edges :nod:

Anyway I finished the adaptation today that I referred to in the poll thread, a very readable dramatisation - blew through it in two evenings, though its only half the size of the translation, very enjoyable, plenty of British Idioms and colloquialisms but I understand it was produced for Radio four.

[Virgil]

I don't know if anyone has given an outline of The Odyssey. First it is an epic, an epic of a journey home. Odysseus has just fought ten years at the Trojan war and is returning home. But the gods have taken a disliking to him (I think he showed some disrespect to Poesidon) and have disrupted his return voyage. Ultimately it akes him another ten years to get home. The story begins in the last year of his ten year return. In the meantime, over the twenty years of his absence at home, life on his island kingdom has degenerated. His son, Telemachus, who Odysseus has only seen as an infant is being threatened by men who want to take over the kingdom, and Odysseus' wife Penelope is being pressured into marrying one of the men. Penelope has been using many tricks to stall the men in the hopes that her husband will return. Telemachus goes away to visit some of his father's mates from the war to try to get any news of his father. The epic starts with Telemachus and his search. The first four books are usualy refered to as the Telemachia.

Interesting how the quest of Telemachus is a sort of inverse of his father's quest to return home. Instead of the journey in, as Odysseus travels, Telemachus has a journey out.

[NickAdams]

I just finished book 3; I've been neglecting my nomination, but it's time to breath some life into this thread.

Does anybody know the significance of hair and gray, both used as an adjective or synecdoche(?), in the ancient Greek culture?

So Telemachos-macho-man, the oversize child which I liken to Baby Huey, sets off to kiss some neighboring backside.

http://thekaminskis.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/huey1.gif

Telemyphone knows Mentor is the Gray-eyed Goddess, but says Athene has forgotten Odysseus and he wines of how the God neglect him. I suggest he sees a therapist, he clearly has abandonment issues.

There is an interesting segment about the Gods not being able to stop death. The humans demand so much of them and they do all they can, but death is more powerful. This is interesting when one thinks about the personification of death. Man stops asking God(s) and deals with death directly (stay away from chess and twister, because he is a master of both).

[NickAdams]

It seems a curse to be a god; do they have any other purpose than to serve mankind? They are forced to choose sides in battle and as a result end up opposing another olympian. Man is highly dependent upon the gods. They seem afraid and even angered to face life on their own. They resent the gods for not being powerful enough to overcome death.

Aias claims that, "in spite of the gods he escaped the great gulf,"(502) and the text says Athene and Poseidon is angered at his defiance and as a result Poseidon attacks him. I don't think they were angered by his defiance so much as his ungratefulness. With every command that man makes, the gods only ask for a steer or two as an offering, I prefer wage. The gods seem like disgruntled employees.

"Show me the way to lie in wait for this divine ancient,/ for fear he may somehow see me first and be warned and avoid me." (395 & 396)

[sofia82]

Hey, I missed this thread ... I want to read this though I read many years ago and not remember the details at all. Wait for me ;)


It seems a curse to be a god; do they have any other purpose than to serve mankind? They are forced to choose sides in battle and as a result end up opposing another olympian. Man is highly dependent upon the gods. They seem afraid and even angered to face life on their own. They resent the gods for not being powerful enough to overcome death.

Aias claims that, "in spite of the gods he escaped the great gulf,"(502) and the text says Athene and Poseidon is angered at his defiance and as a result Poseidon attacks him. I don't think they were angered by his defiance so much as his ungratefulness. With every command that man makes, the gods only ask for a steer or two as an offering, I prefer wage. The gods seem like disgruntled employees.

"Show me the way to lie in wait for this divine ancient,/ for fear he may somehow see me first and be warned and avoid me." (395 & 396)

I really don't know what to do with these gods and goddesses, but they are the ideal representation of we, human beings a little bit ideal than us . I've just finished Henry VI part 3, and reading your comment, this comes into my mind that these Lords and Dukes do the same. (What a comparison?:p )

[NickAdams]

Hey, I missed this thread ... I want to read this though I read many years ago and not remember the details at all. Wait for me ;)



I really don't know what to do with these gods and goddesses, but they are the ideal representation of we, human beings a little bit ideal than us . I've just finished Henry VI part 3, and reading your comment, this comes into my mind that these Lords and Dukes do the same. (What a comparison?:p )

Very interesting. :::strokes beard::: I'll have to read Mr. Henry, because I'm very intrigued by this theme.

[Virgil]

I imagine people are beyond the first few books. What do people think of Telemachus as a character? He's certainly not mature enough to be the equal of Odysseus in nature. But is he even up to Achilles? Achilles I believe is actually younger during the Trojan War. What do you think Homer wants us to take away from this character?

[NickAdams]

I imagine people are beyond the first few books. What do people think of Telemachus as a character? He's certainly not mature enough to be the equal of Odysseus in nature. But is he even up to Achilles? Achilles I believe is actually younger during the Trojan War. What do you think Homer wants us to take away from this character?

I'm on the thrid or fourth book, but my thoughts of Telemachus:

http://thekaminskis.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/huey1.gif

[DapperDrake]

I imagine people are beyond the first few books. What do people think of Telemachus as a character? He's certainly not mature enough to be the equal of Odysseus in nature. But is he even up to Achilles? Achilles I believe is actually younger during the Trojan War. What do you think Homer wants us to take away from this character?

I'm in the middle of the fourth book, I'm going pretty slowly as I'm busy with other things.

Well I don't know about Achilles, not having read the Iliad, but I guess Telemachus must be about 20. Without having had a father figure its not surprising that he hasn't hardened and matured as many other young princes would of by his age.
I would say Telemachus is the best he could be in the circumstances, but I think Homer stresses Telemachus' immature characteristics because it fits with the story, after all he has been putting up with the suitors all this time where as I can't imagine your average Greek hero doing so. Telemachus' immaturity is an necessary plot device, without it the urgency for Odysseus to return isn't there and neither is the triumph of his eventual return.

[_Shannon_]

Is there anyone reading this onth who read Papillion?? If so- anyone feel like Papillion is somewhat a re-telling of the Odyssey?

[DapperDrake]

No that didn't occur to me at all, I can see where you're coming from but to be honest i've already put Papillon out of my mind. Apart from the superficial similarity of trials at sea and being waylaid on various islands I don't think there is really anything there.

What I don't fully understand, and possibly because I haven't read the Iliad, is why Athena is going to such lengths to help Odysseus? It's been hinted that the Greeks offended her in some significant way when they left Troy and that the trials they experianced returning were largly due to her, and now here she is bending over backwards to ensure Odysseus gets home.
The Greek gods do seem a bit whimsical and fickle as a rule but it seems odd.

[Drkshadow03]

I've been reading through the comments and I wanted to make a couple of remarks.

The Greek gods and goddesses are different from our understanding of the term G-d in Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture; these gods as a general rule don't care for human beings like the Abrahamic G-d. True, they occassionally care about individual humans, but for the most part humans are pathetic creatures there to serve and glorify the gods. Theos that we translate as gods perhaps should remain untranslated; they almost function as a third species: humans, animals, theos (gods) rather than as divine beings as we understand it.

[JBI]

I'm on the thrid or fourth book, but my thoughts of Telemachus:

http://thekaminskis.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/huey1.gif

Keep in mind though, his father has been gone since he was a little child, and he barely knows him. He is trapped between loyalty to his father, who everyone thinks dead, and the fact that people are constantly making passes as his mother, which shows the distortion of power in Ithaca, as well as the fact that he is isolated from everybody.

[papayahed]

Keep in mind though, his father has been gone since he was a little child, and he barely knows him. He is trapped between loyalty to his father, who everyone thinks dead, and the fact that people are constantly making passes as his mother, which shows the distortion of power in Ithaca, as well as the fact that he is isolated from everybody.

I've just finished the first four books and I agree, give the kid a break.

Although I have to admit all the "niceties" and adoration of each other gets a little much.

I read Papillon and besides both men trying to get home I don't see much of a connection but I want to finish The Odyssey before I stick my foot in my mouth.

[Drkshadow03]

Some of you might find this preview of an online book useful: Epic: an introduction (http://books.google.com/books?id=-ujkAc1B3ZoC&pg=RA1-PA46&lpg=RA1-PA46&dq=Odyssey+Telemachus&source=web&ots=jK3gUH37s0&sig=RiY0FcuU_GI6qUfUb6G6-UrKK2U&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result). It has a whole section on The Odyssey and answers some of the questions raised here.

[manolia]

I've been reading through the comments and I wanted to make a couple of remarks.

The Greek gods and goddesses are different from our understanding of the term G-d in Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture; these gods as a general rule don't care for human beings like the Abrahamic G-d. True, they occassionally care about individual humans, but for the most part humans are pathetic creatures there to serve and glorify the gods. Theos that we translate as gods perhaps should remain untranslated; they almost function as a third species: humans, animals, theos (gods) rather than as divine beings as we understand it.

Quite true. Greek gods are whimsical and share a whole list of traits which make them look like human beings (more than gods). I don't agree with the translation part though. God (Θεός, theos) and gods (Θεοί, thei) is the only way to translate it. The greek word theos comes from the verb "θέομαι" (theome) which means "run fast" or from the verb "Θέω" (theo) which means overlook (not sure how to translate this one)..so as you can see it has little to do with the concept of the divine (unless you stretch your imagination a bit :lol: ). So you are quite right in your last statement.



What I don't fully understand, and possibly because I haven't read the Iliad, is why Athena is going to such lengths to help Odysseus? It's been hinted that the Greeks offended her in some significant way when they left Troy and that the trials they experianced returning were largly due to her, and now here she is bending over backwards to ensure Odysseus gets home.
The Greek gods do seem a bit whimsical and fickle as a rule but it seems odd.

Greeks destroyed one of her temples in Troy thus Athena resents them.
Athena always liked Odysseus because he is very clever and wise (the word used to describe him in Iliad and Odyssey is "πολυμήχανος" which is a combound word: very+machine which means the person who is very clever and finds solutions and tricks in every situation..gee i am not much of a translator).
Poseidon hates Odysseus.

[NickAdams]

Keep in mind though, his father has been gone since he was a little child, and he barely knows him. He is trapped between loyalty to his father, who everyone thinks dead, and the fact that people are constantly making passes as his mother, which shows the distortion of power in Ithaca, as well as the fact that he is isolated from everybody.
I wonder what Freud thought of this. Is the Oedipus complex dependent on the presence of the father? Without Odysseus around, Telemachus didn't have a figure to imitate or compete against in order to develop; however, nature seems to be favored over nurture in the Odyssey. Telemachus is told, numerous times, that if he is truly the son of his father blah blah blah.



Although I have to admit all the "niceties" and adoration of each other gets a little much.


I have to agree. One can make a living off of the hospitality (food, lodging gifts etc).

[NickAdams]

Does anyone know why the gods demand a hecatomb?

[DapperDrake]

nope, I guess its more of an excuse for a giant party.

Did anyone else get the impression that Telemachus is gay? or am I just reading that in?

[Joyeuse]

Hmmm. In response to DapperDrake, I think Telemachus seems to be gay to us in the epic because the Greeks had a kind of flamboyant culture (with pederasty and such) compared to most modern-day cultures, so he probably just seems this way because of our imaginations.
**************************************************
I thought it was so interesting the way the oral culture shaped the work. The epithets especially; it seems so different from a lot of the literature I've read (keep in mind I haven't read the Iliad.) In fact, there is a popular theory by a man named Parry stating that, not only were their multiple authors who wrote the work of The Odyssey, but these authors actually improvised the entire thing (though they did steal bits and pieces from each other, making certain parts fomulaic.)

I am glad there weren't many works written this way, though. I thought the structure of the epic wasn't very good. It seemed to me like they should have told the story of Odysseus facing the Cyclops, Scylla and Charybdis, and other monsters like that instead of talking so much about Telemachus and Odysseus's journey after the really intense action sequences. Then again, maybe I'm just some ADD lunatic ravaged by our modern-day culture and the Greeks were more patient and less demanding of action.
**************************************************
Does anyone know what was going on when Homer kept on referring to the good shepherd that helped Odysseus as "you?" I read the Fagle translation, which, by the way, has an amazing introduction

[DapperDrake]

Did only two people make it through the book then? :) Oh well.

I did get the impression that Telemachus and Nestor's son (can't remember his name, pisistratus?) were more than just friends, I think that was strongly hinted at in the book. I do wonder if Homer was trying to make some sort of point with it.
I realise homosexuality was common place in ancient Greece, normal even, but I wonder what connotations it has in the story.

[Virgil]

No, I've stopped commenting but i'm still reading. I'm not sure what to really say. Oh I guess I can think of something. But right now I'm preoccupied with the July read.

[eyemaker]

i shouldn't miss this..better get my book ready