Are you a representative?

[motherhubbard]

We all represent something beyond ourselves. We are part of our family, community, race, gender, religion and so on. One person’s behavior effects the appearance of the larger group. One example may be hijackers who are Muslim giving peaceful Muslims a bad name. There are examples for everybody, though.


So my questions are-

Do you feel that your conduct and performance reflects upon those whom you represent? Do you modify your behavior so that your will be a better reprehensive of the larger population? Do you feel an obligation to your group?

[Trystan]

I don't represent anybody, not my country, not my family or friends etc. I only represent myself.

[jgweed]

It is not as if one only represents groupX all the time; quite often one represents many different groups on different occasions or circumstances. And I suspect that most people do not envision their actions when they perform them as actually representing ANY group in normal circumstances.

[motherhubbard]

I don't represent anybody, not my country, not my family or friends etc. I only represent myself.


We all represent something, even if we don't want to.



It is not as if one only represents groupX all the time; quite often one represents many different groups on different occasions or circumstances. And I suspect that most people do not envision their actions when they perform them as actually representing ANY group in normal circumstances.


Would you say it is selfish when a person acts without considering the impact it will have on others?

[Trystan]

We all represent something, even if we don't want to.


How come? I mean, say if I went abroad and "represented" my country. I behave in a totally unacceptable way (or vice versa). That would be representative of myself, not of my home nation. Anyone who judges my behavior as "good" or "bad", and from then on takes the same opinion on ever other person in my country is making ridiculous generalizations.

[motherhubbard]

I didn’t say it was right, Trystan. It’s just a fact. If you go out and act like a rump then people will say ‘kids today’ or ‘those stinking tramps from South Whales’ or ‘he gets it from his father’s side.’ You may not realize it, but it is very simply a fact of life. We are each a part of something greater than ourselves and I think that is wonderful. I don’t understand why people think that is a bad thing.

And I should add that generalizations are not entirely ridiculous. People of a kind do have a lot in common, which is one reason why groups get reputations- several people from that group act a certain way. It’s not ridiculous to say that most young people are idealistic and nearsighted, most KKK members dislike black people and Jews, or that most prisoners are guilty of a crime because all of those things are true.

[sprinks]

We're always getting told about how we are representing the school. We have to wear our uniform perfectly and behave like little angels outside of school, to give it a good reputation.
Sadly, not many people do this and the school is fast on its way to gaining a really bad reputation. (That's not me though - I keep my uniform nice because I can't be bothered making it messy - too much effort. And also I'm pretty much always polite and nice anyhow so I don't need to pretend to be just because I'm wearing the uniform!! :))

[Sweets America]

I couldn't agree more with Trystan. I am NOT representing anyone either, this is ridiculous. I am myself and even with being myself, I am not always coherent... I don't see why my behavior would be generalized. I don't represent my family either. If I do something which they dislike, it's not my problem, I am just living my own life, and changing my behavior because of a group of people would be ridiculous as long as my behavior does not harm anyone.

[sofia82]

Most of the time people are representtive of a group but sometimes we make mistake judging a group, race, nationality, religion just by considering a person's conduct and behavior from a group. Maybe it is not really the representative of that group.

[papayahed]

I get what your saying MH. The only time I may be careful about what I do or even consider my behavior is when I am representing my company. Interestingly, we have a new guy and he asked the question "Are there any guidlines for traveling and conduct?" his reply was "No, just don't do anything stupid". My company pays me to act in a professional manner when I have contact with others outside the comapny.

There is no mistaking that I am of ethnic descent. It has never occured to me that I am a representative of my group or that I need to act in a certain way.

[motherhubbard]

I couldn't agree more with Trystan. I am NOT representing anyone either, this is ridiculous. I am myself and even with being myself, I am not always coherent... I don't see why my behavior would be generalized. I don't represent my family either. If I do something which they dislike, it's not my problem, I am just living my own life, and changing my behavior because of a group of people would be ridiculous as long as my behavior does not harm anyone.

You may not intend to represent anyone, but you still do. Even if you think it is ridiculous people will see you as a representative of a whole. If you turn into a mass murderer people will consider your family and wonder what your mom and dad did to screw you up or remember a rumor about a third cousin that was a bully or something like that. When I read Trystan’s response I actually thought it would be something you would agree with. I think that as you get older you will both realize that you do represent something larger than yourself and I hope you like belonging to something. No man is an island.



Most of the time people are representtive of a group but sometimes we make mistake judging a group, race, nationality, religion just by considering a person's conduct and behavior from a group. Maybe it is not really the representative of that group.

I think that it is often a mistake to judge the whole by the few, but it is still done. Some people will focus on the bad behavior of a few and that’s a shame.


We're always getting told about how we are representing the school. We have to wear our uniform perfectly and behave like little angels outside of school, to give it a good reputation.
Sadly, not many people do this and the school is fast on its way to gaining a really bad reputation. (That's not me though - I keep my uniform nice because I can't be bothered making it messy - too much effort. And also I'm pretty much always polite and nice anyhow so I don't need to pretend to be just because I'm wearing the uniform!! :))

I think that’s fantastic Sprinks, and I’m not a bit surprised by your post! Being part of something larger than yourself helps build a since of community which is good for your and those around you. Your school is lucky to have such a kind and responsible girl.


I get what your saying MH. The only time I may be careful about what I do or even consider my behavior is when I am representing my company. Interestingly, we have a new guy and he asked the question "Are there any guidlines for traveling and conduct?" his reply was "No, just don't do anything stupid". My company pays me to act in a professional manner when I have contact with others outside the comapny.

There is no mistaking that I am of ethnic descent. It has never occured to me that I am a representative of my group or that I need to act in a certain way.

This last part really interest me. I’ve said before that there is little/no diversity in this area. Over the past decade or so a lot of Hispanics have moved into the area. (what’s the difference in Hispanic and Latino?) I have found them to be very hardworking, family oriented, and really good students. But I know a lot of people are afraid or prejudice. They face a special challenge and I really hate that. So whenever I hear something on the news about a Hispanic person being arrested or suspect for something I always think about how that effects the whole population. I always wonder if they considered how they would be furthering prejudice against their race or if they were just reacting to a situation or circumstance in their lives without giving the magnitude of the consequences consideration. I doubt there are many people who would knowingly make things harder for others like them. Of course, there will always be people who don’t give a flip about others or who think only of themselves.

I agree that our personal lives do have an impact on how the people we work for are seen.

[Sweets America]

You may not intend to represent anyone, but you still do. Even if you think it is ridiculous people will see you as a representative of a whole. If you turn into a mass murderer people will consider your family and wonder what your mom and dad did to screw you up or remember a rumor about a third cousin that was a bully or something like that. When I read Trystan’s response I actually thought it would be something you would agree with. I think that as you get older you will both realize that you do represent something larger than yourself and I hope you like belonging to something. No man is an island.

No, I don't represent anyone. It's not my fault if people look at me and interpret what I do by basing themselves on a group I would belong to. It is utterly stupid to accuse the mother and father of a mass murderer.... Maybe they have a role, that is a possibility, but making quick amalgams like that is a pity. This is often what humans do anyway, but that doesn't mean I want to do it myself. Now look at this: my father is an acoholic and both of my bros did drugs. I never did such things and I am not representative of it, neither do my brothers represent me in any way. I love them and they love me but we each have our own lives, own behaviors and ways of living.

Every man can be an island if he wants to. That's a way of seeing the world. I see humanity as being made of individuals different from each other. I like the idea that every man is an island and that each encounter opens us onto a new discovery in which we find things in common with ourselves and differences. That's the way I see things. I do not care about being representative of things or people, or being part of a whole. I don't want to have people tell what what I should do or how I should act. I don't like amalgams and quick judgements. I like independence and I'm not fond of the old argument saying that 'when you get older you'll understand'...:rolleyes:

EDIT: and no, this doesn't mean I only think about myself. That means I don't see why I would piss people off about their behaviors and how they should act because they're part of something. I just want people to be as free as they can...

[Virgil]

We all represent something beyond ourselves. We are part of our family, community, race, gender, religion and so on. One person’s behavior effects the appearance of the larger group. One example may be hijackers who are Muslim giving peaceful Muslims a bad name. There are examples for everybody, though.


So my questions are-

Do you feel that your conduct and performance reflects upon those whom you represent? Do you modify your behavior so that your will be a better reprehensive of the larger population? Do you feel an obligation to your group?
This is a very interesting question Mom-H. We do represent lots of things. We all have identities. Those that say they don't represent anything are just kidding themselves. The identities that come to mind about me are American, Italian ethnicity, New Yorker, Roman Catholic, male, etc. The question is whether I modify my behavior to give provide a better representative. I can't honestly say I do. Lord knows I get a million questions as to whether I or anyone in my family is in the mafia (because of my Italian name -and the answer is no). Certainly my NY manners ;) may be suspect when I go to other parts of the country, but I'm usually not conscious of my actual behavior to even attmpt to modify it. The few times I've been overseas one is conscious that I'm American, but I'm not sure I can say I modified my behavior. I'm a fairly decent person to begin with I think so what could I modify? I'm conscious I'm not in my country and that there may be different rules, and so I may not try to bend them as if I'm home, but I think that doesn't fit within your question.

Let me say, other than trying to accomodate the rules of the locale and respect the customs and dignities of place you're at I don't think anyone should need to modify their behavior. For instance I have never traveled to a muslim country but I'm sure if I did there would be rules and customs I may need to adjust my behavior to. At that's out of a respect for the people there rather than providing a better representative for your identity.


I get what your saying MH. The only time I may be careful about what I do or even consider my behavior is when I am representing my company. Interestingly, we have a new guy and he asked the question "Are there any guidlines for traveling and conduct?" his reply was "No, just don't do anything stupid". My company pays me to act in a professional manner when I have contact with others outside the comapny.


Good point Papaya. Certainly during the working hours we are professionals and expected to be so.

[motherhubbard]

Ah, freedom and independence. I’m me and I have no obligation, tie, link, or commonality with anyone else in the world. I stand alone. There is a lot of hubris here, don’t you think? I’m not saying that you are trying to represent others or that others are trying to represent you. I’m saying that you do represent them and they do represent your and that people will make general judgments based on individuals. I’m not saying that is the best way to decide about a people, but that’s the way the world works- even if it is stupid. You are part of something greater than yourself, even if you don’t want to be. You are part of your family and they are a part of you. Your father’s drinking problem and your brother’s addiction has an effect on you, it influences you. Being raised by an alcoholic doesn’t mean that a person will grow up bad, but it does mean that they will grow up with a set of circumstances similar to others people raised by alcoholics giving them all something in common. Does knowing that your conduct reflects upon others make you think twice about how you behave?

Sweets, I know you resent being told that you will know and understand more as you get older. That’s not uncommon for young people. But it’s the truth and aren’t you glad that people grow in wisdom, knowledge, experience, and understanding? Wouldn’t it be a shame if we all went through life with the understanding of an 8, 18, 28, 38, 48, 58... year old? I certainly hope and expect to gain a better understanding of myself and the world as I grow older. It’s strange how many people have to grow up to know that they don’t know everything. I’m not accusing you of being a know-it-all. Many young people have an idea and image of how the world is or should be, but lack a deeper understanding of how the world is. This has been true for myself and it’s not necessarily directed to you.

We are not islands. We can live alone, have no one, relate to no one, but we will still be part of something larger. Will you work? Will you outlive your relations and anyone who ever knew them? Will you disown your country? People born into a society have an obligation to that society.

[Sweets America]

[QUOTE]I’m saying that you do represent them and they do represent your and that people will make general judgments based on individuals. I’m not saying that is the best way to decide about a people, but that’s the way the world works- even if it is stupid.

Yes, ok so the world is stupid and people judge you and you have to accept it and shut your mouth? Great, but that's not what I intend to do, I just want people to leave me alone, and I want to leave them alone too.


You are part of something greater than yourself, even if you don’t want to be. You are part of your family and they are a part of you. Your father’s drinking problem and your brother’s addiction has an effect on you, it influences you. Being raised by an alcoholic doesn’t mean that a person will grow up bad, but it does mean that they will grow up with a set of circumstances similar to others people raised by alcoholics giving them all something in common. Does knowing that your conduct reflects upon others make you think twice about how you behave?

Once again, you generalize. You do not know anything about my father and how he raised me... or if he raised me at all.... That's a real pity, those assumptions.

You really don't understand what I mean. I know that my behaviors can have consequences on others, and I will restrain my own freedom as soon as my behavior takes away other's freedom, just because I always think first 'would I like if someone else acted this way with me?'. So I'm not only a little brat who doens't care about the consequences of her acts and I know I cannot have complete freedom.


Sweets, I know you resent being told that you will know and understand more as you get older. That’s not uncommon for young people. But it’s the truth and aren’t you glad that people grow in wisdom, knowledge, experience, and understanding? Wouldn’t it be a shame if we all went through life with the understanding of an 8, 18, 28, 38, 48, 58... year old? I certainly hope and expect to gain a better understanding of myself and the world as I grow older. It’s strange how many people have to grow up to know that they don’t know everything. I’m not accusing you of being a know-it-all. Many young people have an idea and image of how the world is or should be, but lack a deeper understanding of how the world is. This has been true for myself and it’s not necessarily directed to you.

Once again, you don't understand me at all. I am the first one who says that I know that I don't know anything. I know I am ignorant and I like the idea of gaining wisdom. I don't have an image of how the world should be, I just have an image of how I want it to be for me, that's all, I just have an image of how I want to live in it. I'm living according to my own philisophy of life and I won't force you to follow it.


We are not islands. We can live alone, have no one, relate to no one, but we will still be part of something larger. Will you work? Will you outlive your relations and anyone who ever knew them? Will you disown your country? People born into a society have an obligation to that society.

How can you say we are not islands as if it were for sure? I am an island if I want to be an island. To each their own way of living their lives. I don't care about my country at all. I don't care about countries or frontiers. I will work and I'll keep as much freedom as I can, and I'll have to accept that my boss might want me to behave this or that way, otherwise I'll just quit and go somehwere else...

Anyway, I don't want to debate on this any longer. I don't care about conventions and fake behaviors. That's just my view. Your philosophy of life is only different, it just doesn't suit me but that doesn't mean it's bad. I might have trouble to live the way I intend to do it but I want to remain true to myself....

[Pensive]

Interesting thread, mother-hubbard.


Do you feel that your conduct and performance reflects upon those whom you represent? Do you modify your behavior so that your will be a better reprehensive of the larger population? Do you feel an obligation to your group?

Hmmm I hope I have understood your question right.

Yes. Parents. School. Friends. Country. Have to modify my behaviour for the sake of all that I belong to, but wouldn't necessary call it in terms of a 'larger population'. Many a times I felt as if I would slip in this life, but the first thought that would occur in mind was what about my parents?, what about those who care for me/I belong to? And it would be tad selfish to lose it all and get disappointed when there are so many people who have helped me to achieve this particular thing.

I would be lying if I say I don't feel one slip by me would not affect my whole family/school/all that I belong to (not that belonging to a particular thing stays forever but as long as I do belong). So yes, I think I do represent it all, even if I don't choose it this way.

For example just a few days back, our exams were going on and our teacher said to all students, "You people are my representative. Do study well, ok?" A teacher who has helped her students throughout their studies I believe would be affected by the result of their exams. It can also alter a teacher's reputation as a teacher, you know what I mean? Not saying that if pupils don't score well it's due to the teacher, but that the element would at least be considered...and teacher herself is the representative of the school too due to which school would be judged too and admission of students into it can be affected as well...see it's all related...and as for assumptions and generalizations...well at times they sound pretty bad but at times we have to make them to see where 'probability is at the highest'. Not always fair, but well that's life I guess. I hope I am making sense here.

[Eggys]

Absolutely not. My family has great people but I'm so bad it feels like I don't fit in with them. I'm the oddball.

[PrinceMyshkin]

[QUOTE=motherhubbard;577977]

Yes, ok so the world is stupid and people judge you and you have to accept it and shut your mouth? Great, but that's not what I intend to do, I just want people to leave me alone, and I want to leave them alone too.



Once again, you generalize. You do not know anything about my father and how he raised me... or if he raised me at all.... That's a real pity, those assumptions.

You really don't understand what I mean. I know that my behaviors can have consequences on others, and I will restrain my own freedom as soon as my behavior takes away other's freedom, just because I always think first 'would I like if someone else acted this way with me?'. So I'm not only a little brat who doens't care about the consequences of her acts and I know I cannot have complete freedom.



Once again, you don't understand me at all. I am the first one who says that I know that I don't know anything. I know I am ignorant and I like the idea of gaining wisdom. I don't have an image of how the world should be, I just have an image of how I want it to be for me, that's all, I just have an image of how I want to live in it. I'm living according to my own philisophy of life and I won't force you to follow it.



How can you say we are not islands as if it were for sure? I am an island if I want to be an island. To each their own way of living their lives. I don't care about my country at all. I don't care about countries or frontiers. I will work and I'll keep as much freedom as I can, and I'll have to accept that my boss might want me to behave this or that way, otherwise I'll just quit and go somehwere else...

Anyway, I don't want to debate on this any longer. I don't care about conventions and fake behaviors. That's just my view. Your philosophy of life is only different, it just doesn't suit me but that doesn't mean it's bad. I might have trouble to live the way I intend to do it but I want to remain true to myself....

Have you heard of the "Stockholm Syndrome," which describes how a person who is held hostage sometimes comes to identify and even to fall in love with her captors? According to your own account elsewhere, your schoolmates and peers when you were younger held you captive, by exclusion, and it is possible you came to embrace your enforced solitude as if you had chosen it. After all, by embracing one's incarceration one may come to believe that one is free.

But to choose without actually having a choice cannot entirely make one free. You would have to go first and live amongst a community and live with both the advantages and the negatives of that: the conformity, the we-versus-them mentality, and then, if you rejected it, you would truly have achieved the independence you worship.

[Sweets America]

Have you heard of the "Stockholm Syndrome," which describes how a person who is held hostage sometimes comes to identify and even to fall in love with her captors? According to your own account elsewhere, your schoolmates and peers when you were younger held you captive, by exclusion, and it is possible you came to embrace your enforced solitude as if you had chosen it. After all, by embracing one's incarceration one may come to believe that one is free.

But to choose without actually having a choice cannot entirely make one free. You would have to go first and live amongst a community and live with both the advantages and the negatives of that: the conformity, the we-versus-them mentality, and then, if you rejected it, you would truly have achieved the independence you worship.

That's very interesting, what you say, and there might be truth in it, I feel... But, still, I haven't only met people who were mean to me, I have met people I loved too, and I still enjoy my solitude, even if it's not always the case. But anyway, what you said about my pseudo-freedom is thought-provoking and I somehow want to punch your sentence in the face...;) I know that part of what I experienced made me that way, so I was influenced... but I also feel I have matured and that I have decided on some things... it's hard to tell, but as I said I do know that I cannot have complete freedom and I accept it... all I am saying here is that I will not choose to represent anyone and that I will not change my behavior to fit in.

I was thinking of something else also... I dislike the idea of being representative of a group, because really I don't think I am, in my own conception of life... and the idea of being part of a whole doesn't appeal to me...BUT in the meantime I loved what I read in Kerouac's books about the idea that nothing exists and that everything is emptiness and that we are all part of the same emptiness, we are actually this emptiness and this is how we can feel empathy for everything in this world, because we are them and they are us... I love this thought even though it goes against everything else I said... my conclusion is that I dislike the thought of being part of a whole concretely, in the everyday life on this planet but that I can appreciate it abstractly, on another level...

[PrinceMyshkin]

I loved what I read in Kerouac's books about the idea that nothing exists and that everything is emptiness and that we are all part of the same emptiness, we are actually this emptiness and this is how we can feel empathy for everything in this world, because we are them and they are us... I love this thought even though it goes against everything else I said... my conclusion is that I dislike the thought of being part of a whole concretely, in the everyday life on this planet but that I can appreciate it abstractly, on another level...

To my way of thinking any pronouncements anyone makes about "reality" is nothing but a projection of his feelings, something that inclined him or her to look at reality this way or that and - voila! - what he or she 'sees' confirms their inner climate.

[mercy_mankind]

One person’s behavior effects the appearance of the larger group. One example may be hijackers who are Muslim giving peaceful Muslims a bad name.


Very nice thread .:thumbs_up
I want to put a comment and to say my opinion especially about your example .
but I'll put it later because of exams.

[motherhubbard]

Yes, ok so the world is stupid and people judge you and you have to accept it and shut your mouth? Great, but that's not what I intend to do, I just want people to leave me alone, and I want to leave them alone too.

I’m not saying that you have to roll over here. People judge you, how can you stop that? People who will never speak to you, that you will never see again, that just happen to pass you on the street will all make a judgment about you. I’m not saying it is right, but it is the truth. If you are out in a manner where you are representing a larger group, even unintentionally, people will make judgments about that group based on you. I’m not saying it is right, but it is the truth. When you come to the states to study there will be people who will come to a general opinion about you, your family, your country, the school you attended… I’m not saying it’s right, but it is the truth.





Once again, you generalize. You do not know anything about my father and how he raised me... or if he raised me at all.... That's a real pity, those assumptions.

I know I’m generalizing- that is what this thread is about. I don’t need to know what your relationship with your father is to know that having a parent who is an alcoholic touches your life. Are you saying that an alcoholic father and brothers with addiction have had NO impact on you? Perhaps it is this circumstance that makes you wish to be an island. And of course you would not behave in a manner that would hurt another, after all you are SWEETS America. But if you go around treating people harshly, flying off the handle, getting in an uproar, or worse- steeling, cheating, or lying then you do hurt the people that others associate with you. I’m not saying that you would do these things. I’m also not saying that you choose to represent someone because we often don’t get to choose.




You really don't understand what I mean. I know that my behaviors can have consequences on others, and I will restrain my own freedom as soon as my behavior takes away other's freedom, just because I always think first 'would I like if someone else acted this way with me?'. So I'm not only a little brat who doens't care about the consequences of her acts and I know I cannot have complete freedom.

Once again, you don't understand me at all. I am the first one who says that I know that I don't know anything. I know I am ignorant and I like the idea of gaining wisdom. I don't have an image of how the world should be, I just have an image of how I want it to be for me, that's all, I just have an image of how I want to live in it. I'm living according to my own philisophy of life and I won't force you to follow it.

I’m not saying that you are ignorant! I’m only saying that just because you have a philosophy that you choose to live by doesn’t mean that everyone who observes you will understand or go along with it. They will still look at you and make generalizations about others based on you. I didn’t say that you are rotten to people, I just asked if you care about the far reaching impression you give others.



How can you say we are not islands as if it were for sure? I am an island if I want to be an island. To each their own way of living their lives. I don't care about my country at all. I don't care about countries or frontiers. I will work and I'll keep as much freedom as I can, and I'll have to accept that my boss might want me to behave this or that way, otherwise I'll just quit and go somehwere else...

Sweets, you are not an island. We can’t be. You can say you are but you deceive yourself. We are all interconnected in some way. If you were an island you would not be here chatting with people, you would not be in love, you would not have friends or family, you would not have companions at work or school… You are a part of something greater than just you. It’s called the human race. That doesn’t mean you can’t be true to yourself or to be fake in some way. And you may consider that if your conduct offends your employer it may become difficult for you to just get another job.

I just want to know if people are careful about their behavior knowing that they represent more than just themselves. When I posted the question I was really thinking about some specific examples like race or religion.




Anyway, I don't want to debate on this any longer. I don't care about conventions and fake behaviors. That's just my view. Your philosophy of life is only different, it just doesn't suit me but that doesn't mean it's bad. I might have trouble to live the way I intend to do it but I want to remain true to myself....

I wonder just what being true to yourself means?


Interesting thread, mother-hubbard.



Hmmm I hope I have understood your question right.

Yes. Parents. School. Friends. Country. Have to modify my behaviour for the sake of all that I belong to, but wouldn't necessary call it in terms of a 'larger population'. Many a times I felt as if I would slip in this life, but the first thought that would occur in mind was what about my parents?, what about those who care for me/I belong to? And it would be tad selfish to lose it all and get disappointed when there are so many people who have helped me to achieve this particular thing.

I would be lying if I say I don't feel one slip by me would not affect my whole family/school/all that I belong to (not that belonging to a particular thing stays forever but as long as I do belong). So yes, I think I do represent it all, even if I don't choose it this way.

For example just a few days back, our exams were going on and our teacher said to all students, "You people are my representative. Do study well, ok?" A teacher who has helped her students throughout their studies I believe would be affected by the result of their exams. It can also alter a teacher's reputation as a teacher, you know what I mean? Not saying that if pupils don't score well it's due to the teacher, but that the element would at least be considered...and teacher herself is the representative of the school too due to which school would be judged too and admission of students into it can be affected as well...see it's all related...and as for assumptions and generalizations...well at times they sound pretty bad but at times we have to make them to see where 'probability is at the highest'. Not always fair, but well that's life I guess. I hope I am making sense here.


I think you made a lot of sense and I admire your forethought and sense of responsibility, particularly to your family. That was a really good example that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately. If all of the children in a particular teacher’s class do poorly one might assume that the teacher failed, but what if all of the students were from a difficult situation or had disabilities that limited their abilities? Not fair, but it happens.

[Petrarch's Love]

This thread is just begging for a snippet of Donne's Meditation XVII:


No man is an island. entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

I don't understand why people necessarily equate recognizing that we are each a part of a group or groups with being fake. While it is true that people sometimes do modify their behavior in order to fit in, in a way that compromises their individuality, that doesn't mean that your individuality is compromised every time you think of yourself as representing a group. Indeed, an important part of a person's individuality often is the way that that person is "involved in mankind." I agree with Mother H., and with Donne, that none of us actually can be an island. We can elect not to care about the effect that our life has on others, but we cannot elect not to have an effect, and most of the time we cannot help but be affected in turn by others.

[Sweets America]

I’m not saying that you have to roll over here. People judge you, how can you stop that? People who will never speak to you, that you will never see again, that just happen to pass you on the street will all make a judgment about you. I’m not saying it is right, but it is the truth. If you are out in a manner where you are representing a larger group, even unintentionally, people will make judgments about that group based on you. I’m not saying it is right, but it is the truth. When you come to the states to study there will be people who will come to a general opinion about you, your family, your country, the school you attended… I’m not saying it’s right, but it is the truth.

Yes, some people, or maybe a lot of people, will do what you described here, yes I agree. The only thing I said is that if they do that towards me, I will pity them and just tell them to eff off because this attitude of theirs is utterly stupid. The fact that people will judge me according to groups I am part of will not make me change my behavior. And, I am not interested in being friends with people like that, I avoid them, and I have actually found some people who do not judge me this way. Yes, that exists. People who try not to be judgemental, or when they see they are, they try to get out of this attitude.

The interesting thing with meeting someone new is to be completely open with this person, to take him/her as a being with multiple possibilities, and NOT to make assumptions about how this person is according to a group.



I know I’m generalizing- that is what this thread is about. I don’t need to know what your relationship with your father is to know that having a parent who is an alcoholic touches your life. Are you saying that an alcoholic father and brothers with addiction have had NO impact on you? Perhaps it is this circumstance that makes you wish to be an island. And of course you would not behave in a manner that would hurt another, after all you are SWEETS America. But if you go around treating people harshly, flying off the handle, getting in an uproar, or worse- steeling, cheating, or lying then you do hurt the people that others associate with you. I’m not saying that you would do these things. I’m also not saying that you choose to represent someone because we often don’t get to choose.

My relationship with my father did not affect me a bad way, but yes it did affect me. For instance it might be responsible for the fact that I dislike the taste of alcohol, but maybe this has nothing to do with my father, who knows. All in all, my relationship with my whole family made me think that I wanted to be a lot different from any of them because their ways of life just does not appeal to me, so I am going towards something different. I am living my life. A lot of what I do does not appeal to my family, be it my love life or my studies, but I absolutely don't care about it, they either accept me how I am or they don't, and if they don't, well, I don't care. This is in this way that I say that I am an island, you see, I will NEVER change the way I am because of a group which is related to me. This would mean that I am not true to myself.

I find it ridiculous that it would hurt people associated with me if I behaved badly. It would just be about my own life, just like my father's alcoholism is about his own life. I learned things from this situation, but it did not do anything really bad to me, and if people associate me with alcoholism, well, let them do so...


I’m not saying that you are ignorant! I’m only saying that just because you have a philosophy that you choose to live by doesn’t mean that everyone who observes you will understand or go along with it. They will still look at you and make generalizations about others based on you. I didn’t say that you are rotten to people, I just asked if you care about the far reaching impression you give others.

Well, I am saying that I am ignorant, because that is the truth. I am ignorant because I consider that everything I know might be just wrong or an illusion. It's ok for me to know that I do not know anything, I'm happy with it and I always let the door open.
I don't care about the impression I give others. I will not behave this or that way to make people love me. Those who love me love me because what I am appeals to them. If I modified my behavior to be careful about the impression I gave, I would constantly lie, and I do not wish to base my relationships to people on lies. I know a lot is based on appearances in this world, but it does not appeal to me, personally. And it's ok if people don't understand my philosophy of life, I am not asking those people to have any relationship with me.




Sweets, you are not an island. We can’t be. You can say you are but you deceive yourself. We are all interconnected in some way. If you were an island you would not be here chatting with people, you would not be in love, you would not have friends or family, you would not have companions at work or school… You are a part of something greater than just you. It’s called the human race. That doesn’t mean you can’t be true to yourself or to be fake in some way. And you may consider that if your conduct offends your employer it may become difficult for you to just get another job.

Yes, I am connected to people, of course, even if I restrain my connections because I'm not fond of human relationships, but yes I am connected to some people and I am happy to be. But, that doesn't mean I am not an island. I can be an island with a little bridge leading to another island. The fact that I am connected with people does not mean that I cannot be myself independently of them. I can cut the bridge any time. I am just saying that I will not modify who I am to please others. I am saying that external things will not make me change the core of my self against my will.
I know I am part of the human race, you are right, and that is a big curse for me.

Now you have every right not to consider yourself an island, but please let me consider myself the way I wish to consider myself, we just have different philosophies of life. Saying that I am deceiving myself is quite arrogant, it's as if I told you that you deceive yourself when you think that God exists. It's all a matter of how one sees life and there should be no problem about that.


I wonder just what being true to yourself means?

I said it means that I will not lie on who I am and that people will either accept who I am or not come towards me. It is not a problem for me to be alone, I prefer being alone or having very few friends with whom I can be myself and who will not judge me by comparing me to other people. I am myself, I am not the others.

[motherhubbard]

Yes, some people, or maybe a lot of people, will do what you described here, yes I agree. The only thing I said is that if they do that towards me, I will pity them and just tell them to eff off because this attitude of theirs is utterly stupid. The fact that people will judge me according to groups I am part of will not make me change my behavior. And, I am not interested in being friends with people like that,


The purpose of this thread was to ask if you consider how YOUR behavior reflects upon others in your group. I wonder to black people want to prove to the world that Jim Crow is a crock by excelling or do they think about it. People of every race steal cars, but when it’s on the news that a black person stole a car I feel a little angry that they did something that will fuel discrimination against black people. I want all black people to rise above every worldly problem and situation so that the whole race can advance. I feel this way about every group that faces discrimination. This is not about you being judged by association, but do you consider the group before you tell people to F- off. If talk to foreigners like that then they will say that the French are foulmouthed and rude. I was just asking if you care about that.



My relationship with my father did not affect me a bad way, but yes it did affect me. For instance it might be responsible for the fact that I dislike the taste of alcohol, but maybe this has nothing to do with my father, who knows. All in all, my relationship with my whole family made me think that I wanted to be a lot different from any of them because their ways of life just does not appeal to me, so I am going towards something different. I am living my life. A lot of what I do does not appeal to my family, be it my love life or my studies, but I absolutely don't care about it, they either accept me how I am or they don't, and if they don't, well, I don't care. This is in this way that I say that I am an island, you see, I will NEVER change the way I am because of a group which is related to me. This would mean that I am not true to myself.

I find it ridiculous that it would hurt people associated with me if I behaved badly. It would just be about my own life, just like my father's alcoholism is about his own life. I learned things from this situation, but it did not do anything really bad to me, and if people associate me with alcoholism, well, let them do so...

If you and your mother (or someone that you love) were smokers and the other person was diagnosed with a lung disease and had to quit smoking to survive, would you quit? Quitting would help and support your loved one, but staying true to yourself would hasten their death. If people refused to associate with someone you love because you went around telling people to F- off would you hold your tongue for their sake?




Well, I am saying that I am ignorant, because that is the truth. I am ignorant because I consider that everything I know might be just wrong or an illusion. It's ok for me to know that I do not know anything, I'm happy with it and I always let the door open.
I don't care about the impression I give others. I will not behave this or that way to make people love me. Those who love me love me because what I am appeals to them. If I modified my behavior to be careful about the impression I gave, I would constantly lie, and I do not wish to base my relationships to people on lies. I know a lot is based on appearances in this world, but it does not appeal to me, personally. And it's ok if people don't understand my philosophy of life, I am not asking those people to have any relationship with me.

It’s not about people loving YOU, but how they perceive others based on your behavior. When someone hears that a Jewish person extorted some money from work then it will bring up old Nazi propaganda. It isn’t fair, and all kinds of people extort money, but this is an image that was widespread through propaganda and Jewish people have to combat it. There is not a group in the world that is free from some kind of generalization.

I’m a red head, but I have a very long fuse. I’m a woman, but I can change a flat and work power tools and drive a tractor… I’m a wife but I never nag (just ask darling husband), I’m a Southerner and I’m a Hillbilly but I have an education and I own shoes. I am probably most careful regarding my conduct because I don’t want to be a bad representative of the Church. This doesn’t mean that I’m not true to myself, it just means that when someone does make me angry I don’t yell at them, and even when I don’t like someone I try to be friendly to them. I give a lot of consideration to how my behavior reflects upon others.





Yes, I am connected to people, of course, even if I restrain my connections because I'm not fond of human relationships, but yes I am connected to some people and I am happy to be. But, that doesn't mean I am not an island. I can be an island with a little bridge leading to another island. The fact that I am connected with people does not mean that I cannot be myself independently of them. I can cut the bridge any time. I am just saying that I will not modify who I am to please others. I am saying that external things will not make me change the core of my self against my will.
I know I am part of the human race, you are right, and that is a big curse for me.

of course you can do or say what you like. that's not the point of this thread. I think some people think more of themselves than of others to the detriment of others. I think that individuals should work toward the betterment of society instead of just serving their own individual desires. That's sort of the underlying theme of this question. I think that if we all considered ourselves representatives and tried to be on our best behavior all the time the world would be a better place.



Now you have every right not to consider yourself an island, but please let me consider myself the way I wish to consider myself, we just have different philosophies of life. Saying that I am deceiving myself is quite arrogant, it's as if I told you that you deceive yourself when you think that God exists. It's all a matter of how one sees life and there should be no problem about that.



Arrogant: proudly contemptuous: feeling or showing proud self-importance and contempt or disregard for others

it may be arrogant of me to say so but the way one lives life has an impact on others. I think arrogant may be used to describe your attitude toward people in all of your post in this thread so far. I’m not trying to hurt your feelings, but it’s a curse for you to be a part of the human race and you are never shy about saying how you dislike people and how you don’t care what they think or how they are stupid for thinking this or that.

I don’t care how people see life or themselves, but I do hope it is in a positive light.




I said it means that I will not lie on who I am and that people will either accept who I am or not come towards me. It is not a problem for me to be alone, I prefer being alone or having very few friends with whom I can be myself and who will not judge me by comparing me to other people. I am myself, I am not the others.


trying to give a positive image is not fake. Again this thread is about how your behavior reflects upon others, not about how you appear to be.

[Shalot]

I like the idea of being a "representative." I like the idea of working toward being a better person for the sake of that group you are a part of or associated with.

Maybe you don't feel you are a part of a certain "group," but someone, for whatever reason, may associate you with a certain "group" because of a stereotype or prejudice or ignorance. You could just step back and dismiss that misguided person, or you could always conduct yourself with honor and integrity for the sake of that group you're being associated with, and for the sake of that uniformed person.

Being a part of something, whether it's a family, or a church group, or on a bigger scale, an ethnic group, is something to live for and a reason to get up in the morning and put up with the crap you go through in life.

The only problem with "groups" is that some of them form for bad reasons. But on the whole, I like the idea of being a "representative."

I think my post here is poorly written but I think it's a great thread idea motherhubbard. Hopefully my post made sense. I guess in essence, I am just saying that our actions impact others in ways we may not expect sometimes, so it is good to be aware of how we conduct ourselves and treat others with kindness.

[Sweets America]

The purpose of this thread was to ask if you consider how YOUR behavior reflects upon others in your group. I wonder to black people want to prove to the world that Jim Crow is a crock by excelling or do they think about it. People of every race steal cars, but when it’s on the news that a black person stole a car I feel a little angry that they did something that will fuel discrimination against black people. I want all black people to rise above every worldly problem and situation so that the whole race can advance. I feel this way about every group that faces discrimination. This is not about you being judged by association, but do you consider the group before you tell people to F- off. If talk to foreigners like that then they will say that the French are foulmouthed and rude. I was just asking if you care about that.

I just don't agree with this... I find it very unfair to make all black people wear this responsibility on their shoulders just because some people make amalgams about 'black people'. What you say here is a justification of those amalgams and that's what I don't agree with. But hey, that's just my opinion.
I find it terrible that you feel angry at the black guy instead of condemning those who say those things about black guys. It's as if the racists managed to manipulate your thinking so that you will accuse the wrong one.



If you and your mother (or someone that you love) were smokers and the other person was diagnosed with a lung disease and had to quit smoking to survive, would you quit? Quitting would help and support your loved one, but staying true to yourself would hasten their death. If people refused to associate with someone you love because you went around telling people to F- off would you hold your tongue for their sake?

My father has cancer. My brothers smoked before. My brothers still smoke. In case you don't remember, I was talking about freedom AS LONG AS it did not hurt other people. So my brothers restrain their freedom by not smoking when they're with my father.


It’s not about people loving YOU, but how they perceive others based on your behavior. When someone hears that a Jewish person extorted some money from work then it will bring up old Nazi propaganda. It isn’t fair, and all kinds of people extort money, but this is an image that was widespread through propaganda and Jewish people have to combat it. There is not a group in the world that is free from some kind of generalization.

Once again, unjustified amalgam... Jewish people should not have ANYTHING to prove to others, and certainly not to Anti-Semites. Trying to behave so that the whole group will not be judged badly would mean that they accept the stupid judgement as containing some truth, and that's not a solution. They should not have to accept this. That scares me, what you say.


and even when I don’t like someone I try to be friendly to them.

Yes, and since you like definitions, that's what I call Hypocrisy. In my view of things, it's just not nice to make people believe that you like them when you don't. It's deceitful. Well at least you're not being deceitful with me here because it's clear that you're not pretending to like me. ;)


I think some people think more of themselves than of others to the detriment of others.

Well, when you act differently to please others, you might think that you do it because you think of the others first, but actually you might as well do it because the first thing you think about is the image you'll give of YOURSELF.


Arrogant: proudly contemptuous: feeling or showing proud self-importance and contempt or disregard for others

it may be arrogant of me to say so but the way one lives life has an impact on others. I think arrogant may be used to describe your attitude toward people in all of your post in this thread so far. I’m not trying to hurt your feelings, but it’s a curse for you to be a part of the human race and you are never shy about saying how you dislike people and how you don’t care what they think or how they are stupid for thinking this or that.

Yes, I understand how I can sound arrogant, but I prefer sounding arrogant than hypocrite. At least I am honest and people know what they meet when they meet me. If being true to oneself is being arrogant, then yes I am, definitely, and I'm happy about it.

Now, the strange thing is that your thread asked 'Are you a representative?', an interesting question to which I gladly replied 'No, I am not' and then I explained why I thought so, and this is only my view because I have my own view of seeing the world. But my problem is that I don't see why you ask a question if you don't want to hear answers? Maybe you should have entitled your thread "The reasons why MotherHubbard thinks you are a representative and you're wrong if you think you are not". Just a suggestion.

[kilted exile]

I know I am a representative of numerous things.

When I am at work I am a representative of the company and the quality of work I produce will clearly impact how readily clients will choose to do repeat business with us. If my reports are late, incorrect, or incomplete this reflects poorly on everyone else in the organisation.

When I am out I am a representative of my gender & age-group. People have pre-conceptions about 20something males, some correct, some not so. If my actions are poor & not thought out, I lead to the continuation of the stereotype instead of proving the biases wrong.

I am a representative of my college program. My employer would be less likely to hire other grads from my college if I was contiously late & slacked off all day.

I am a representative of Glasgow Rangers fans. A group which contains a large contingent of people that bombs would be too good for. If I also was to walk around shouting about being "up to my knees in fenian blood" or gloryifying the actions of the Protestant paramilitary organisations in N.Ireland it would widen the stereotype.

I am proud to represent the things that I love. I hold them in such regard that I take extreme care not to sully their good name. And for those without a good name I work doubly hard to remove misconceptions and stereotypes that have been formed by contact with less proud individuals who do not deserve to belong to anything.

For those who claim not to make any representative impressions, I have a question - How often do you return to for example a restaurant if you go there once and find the waitress generally unhelpful, if not rude? Surely if you are not judging the whole based on the one waitress you would have to continue going back time and time again? First impressions are vital, and despite peoples insistence to the contrary, we all make them and base our opinions on them until proved wrong.

[PrinceMyshkin]

The purpose of this thread was to ask if you consider how YOUR behavior reflects upon others in your group. I wonder to black people want to prove to the world that Jim Crow is a crock by excelling or do they think about it. People of every race steal cars, but when it’s on the news that a black person stole a car I feel a little angry that they did something that will fuel discrimination against black people. I want all black people to rise above every worldly problem and situation so that the whole race can advance. I feel this way about every group that faces discrimination. This is not about you being judged by association, but do you consider the group before you tell people to F- off. If talk to foreigners like that then they will say that the French are foulmouthed and rude. I was just asking if you care about that.



If you and your mother (or someone that you love) were smokers and the other person was diagnosed with a lung disease and had to quit smoking to survive, would you quit? Quitting would help and support your loved one, but staying true to yourself would hasten their death. If people refused to associate with someone you love because you went around telling people to F- off would you hold your tongue for their sake?




It’s not about people loving YOU, but how they perceive others based on your behavior. When someone hears that a Jewish person extorted some money from work then it will bring up old Nazi propaganda. It isn’t fair, and all kinds of people extort money, but this is an image that was widespread through propaganda and Jewish people have to combat it. There is not a group in the world that is free from some kind of generalization.

I’m a red head, but I have a very long fuse. I’m a woman, but I can change a flat and work power tools and drive a tractor… I’m a wife but I never nag (just ask darling husband), I’m a Southerner and I’m a Hillbilly but I have an education and I own shoes. I am probably most careful regarding my conduct because I don’t want to be a bad representative of the Church. This doesn’t mean that I’m not true to myself, it just means that when someone does make me angry I don’t yell at them, and even when I don’t like someone I try to be friendly to them. I give a lot of consideration to how my behavior reflects upon others.





of course you can do or say what you like. that's not the point of this thread. I think some people think more of themselves than of others to the detriment of others. I think that individuals should work toward the betterment of society instead of just serving their own individual desires. That's sort of the underlying theme of this question. I think that if we all considered ourselves representatives and tried to be on our best behavior all the time the world would be a better place.




Arrogant: proudly contemptuous: feeling or showing proud self-importance and contempt or disregard for others

it may be arrogant of me to say so but the way one lives life has an impact on others. I think arrogant may be used to describe your attitude toward people in all of your post in this thread so far. I’m not trying to hurt your feelings, but it’s a curse for you to be a part of the human race and you are never shy about saying how you dislike people and how you don’t care what they think or how they are stupid for thinking this or that.

I don’t care how people see life or themselves, but I do hope it is in a positive light.





trying to give a positive image is not fake. Again this thread is about how your behavior reflects upon others, not about how you appear to be.

Your argument would mean that it is worse for a Jew to be an extortionist than for a Christian to be one, because that Jew would be reinforcing negative stereotypes that already exist, which is in effect to deny Jews the same degree of freedom as you extend to Christians. The trouble with being a representative of any group is that in doing so you diminish your
freedom to be your unique, authentic self.

[motherhubbard]

I just don't agree with this... I find it very unfair to make all black people wear this responsibility on their shoulders just because some people make amalgams about 'black people'. What you say here is a justification of those amalgams and that's what I don't agree with. But hey, that's just my opinion.
I find it terrible that you feel angry at the black guy instead of condemning those who say those things about black guys. It's as if the racists managed to manipulate your thinking so that you will accuse the wrong one.

I am not personally making all black people bear this burden. But I do feel they have it to bear. Until there is equality, acceptance, and respect people will have to work to achieve those things. I’m sorry that black people have to face this, but I’m not sorry that they have an obligation to their race. Being part of something greater than yourself is a very satisfying and strengthening experience. Of course I hate the stereotypes, that’s why I hate it when people give fuel to the fire. In this instance I am blaming a criminal (the one who stole the car) for furthering racial discrimination. I blame them because their action does further discrimination and they didn’t care enough about the effect their action on the whole to not steel a car.






My father has cancer. My brothers smoked before. My brothers still smoke. In case you don't remember, I was talking about freedom AS LONG AS it did not hurt other people. So my brothers restrain their freedom by not smoking when they're with my father.

Again, lets refer to the car thief example. Stealing the car hurt the image of the entire race. That’s other people, a lot of other people.




Once again, unjustified amalgam... Jewish people should not have ANYTHING to prove to others, and certainly not to Anti-Semites. Trying to behave so that the whole group will not be judged badly would mean that they accept the stupid judgement as containing some truth, and that's not a solution. They should not have to accept this. That scares me, what you say.

Sweets, no one should have to prove anything to anyone. You can give up trying to convince me because I agree. The only problem is that there are stereotypes for every group you could possibly belong to and so we do have to prove to people. Now you may have nothing to prove personally. You may not care one way or the other what someone thinks of you and that’s just dandy. My question in the thread if you’ll look back to the beginning is this


We all represent something beyond ourselves. We are part of our family, community, race, gender, religion and so on. One person’s behavior effects the appearance of the larger group. One example may be hijackers who are Muslim giving peaceful Muslims a bad name. There are examples for everybody, though.


So my questions are-

Do you feel that your conduct and performance reflects upon those whom you represent? Do you modify your behavior so that your will be a better reprehensive of the larger population? Do you feel an obligation to your group?

Again, it’s not do you care how people see you but do you care that your actions may have a negative effect on others.




Yes, and since you like definitions, that's what I call Hypocrisy. In my view of things, it's just not nice to make people believe that you like them when you don't. It's deceitful. Well at least you're not being deceitful with me here because it's clear that you're not pretending to like me. ;)

Being kind to people is not hypocrisy, it’s good manners and kindness. Are you rude to the people you don’t like? As far as I’m concerned everyone deserves civility and respect. I wouldn’t be unkind just because I didn’t like someone. What kind of person acts like that?

I hope that by discussing this with you without saying ‘Oh yes, Sweets, what a marvelous philosophy’ regardless of what I really think doesn’t give you the impression that I dislike you.




Well, when you act differently to please others, you might think that you do it because you think of the others first, but actually you might as well do it because the first thing you think about is the image you'll give of YOURSELF.

I’m not talking about acting differently to please others. I’ve said that again and again. I’m asking if you consider how your actions effect others. How hard is that to understand? By the way I am also concerned with the image I give of myself. I would hate for others to think poorly of me. If I didn’t care what others thought of me I wouldn’t shower or wear anything other than my pajamas. But that is unreasonable. Showering and wearing clothes is not me being phony or untrue to myself. It’s just me being decent.





Yes, I understand how I can sound arrogant, but I prefer sounding arrogant than hypocrite. At least I am honest and people know what they meet when they meet me. If being true to oneself is being arrogant, then yes I am, definitely, and I'm happy about it.

It sounds like you are saying that you don’t care about others, only yourself. That to be kind when you don’t really feel like it is hypocritical. That being true to yourself at the expense of others is your right and prerogative and everyone else can kiss your rump- and you’re happy about it. Now I’m the one who feels sorry for you. That is not the attitude of a happy person or one who cares about others. I seriously doubt that a person can ever truly be happy if they don’t put others before themselves.




Now, the strange thing is that your thread asked 'Are you a representative?', an interesting question to which I gladly replied 'No, I am not' and then I explained why I thought so, and this is only my view because I have my own view of seeing the world. But my problem is that I don't see why you ask a question if you don't want to hear answers? Maybe you should have entitled your thread "The reasons why MotherHubbard thinks you are a representative and you're wrong if you think you are not". Just a suggestion.


I must admit that the title of the thread could have been more carefully chosen. Are you a good representative? But I did go on in the initial post to explain my question and I’m very sorry if that was not clear for you. I still stand by my earlier argument that you do represent something greater than yourself. That has been explained by more than just myself and I doubt that any further elaboration on that matter will enlighten you to what you refuse to see.

Sweets, I don’t mind being disagreed with. I enjoy discussing different ideas with people. You are the one who sounds a little testy about being disagreed with. You are the one who said I was being arrogant, a hypocrite and stupid. But it doesn’t hurt my feelings or bother me in anyway. I just find it ironic.


Your argument would mean that it is worse for a Jew to be an extortionist than for a Christian to be one, because that Jew would be reinforcing negative stereotypes that already exist, which is in effect to deny Jews the same degree of freedom as you extend to Christians. The trouble with being a representative of any group is that in doing so you diminish your
freedom to be your unique, authentic self.


I think it is bad all around, but it is worse for Jew because of the propaganda prevalent at one time and still common among certain groups. That doesn't reinforce a negative stereotype, it is an effort to combat the stereotype. Christians have their own set of stereotypes, just like every other group. I feel that we all must at times do our part in proving these stereotypes wrong. If you are a Jew or a Christian you don't have the freedom to be an extortionist no matter how unique you may be. But you do have an obligation to offer a good impression of other Jews or Christians.

I'm not talking about giving up part of ones identity to represent a group. I'm just saying that if you are part of a people facing discrimination you shouldn't further that discrimination by your behavior. It makes thing harder on the group. Do you agree?

[Pensive]

For those who claim not to make any representative impressions, I have a question - How often do you return to for example a restaurant if you go there once and find the waitress generally unhelpful, if not rude? Surely if you are not judging the whole based on the one waitress you would have to continue going back time and time again? First impressions are vital, and despite peoples insistence to the contrary, we all make them and base our opinions on them until proved wrong.

Good point, kilted. At any time in life, we have judged someone/formed an opinion about someone (even if it's a staggering one), depite how much we claim otherwise.

[Sweets America]

Well...
First I see we disagree about your example of black people. We agree on the fact that some people judge a whole community by basing themselves on the actions of one person. But we disagree about the solution to this. My feeling is that it is not wise to play the game of the judgemental ones, this is why no black person should feel that they have anything to wear on their shoulders because the assumptions of the people who judge the whole community are just unjustifiable to me. Playing this game would be unfair according to me, and certainly not a way of helping groups who are judged like that. My feeling is that they should get out of this vicious circle instead of acting according to it. It seems horrible to me to blame someone for the errors of someone else. You are blaming the blacks for the errors of the racists. When you see a black guy stealing a car, you should only see someone stealing a car, you should not even think that he is black because this has nothing to do with the rest. I cannot believe that you say that stealing the car hurts the image of the entire race.
What I mean is that when you blame the black guy, you nourish the stereotype instead of fighting it.

Your question is biased because when you say 'do you care that your actions may have a negative effect on others?', you assume those things about people being representative of others. The thing is I am not starting from the same basis as you, so for me, this question does not even needs to be asked since it seems logical for me that it is preposterous to judge a whole group by the actions of one person. So, to your questions:


Do you feel that your conduct and performance reflects upon those whom you represent? Do you modify your behavior so that your will be a better reprehensive of the larger population? Do you feel an obligation to your group?

1) I do not think I represent anyone because I find no meaning in judging a group I am in by my own actions
2) I do not modify my behavior because I do not think I represent anyone
3) I feel no obligation to anyone as long as I do not hurt them or go against their freedom.

I don't know if you understand, but our misunderstanding comes from the fact that we do not start our thinking on the same basis and we don't consider the problem the same way. I just do not want to nourish things that seem unfair to me.

I accept that you think you represent a larger group, and that is good if it makes you happy, and all the things I say here are only about my own way of seeing things, my way might be wrong for others, and I just have trouble with the fact that you consider that I am wrong for myself in my view of things, because to me no one is right or wrong, we are just all different. What is right for you might be wrong for others and vice-versa.


Being kind to people is not hypocrisy, it’s good manners and kindness. Are you rude to the people you don’t like? As far as I’m concerned everyone deserves civility and respect. I wouldn’t be unkind just because I didn’t like someone. What kind of person acts like that?

Yes, you are right, I am not rude to the ones I don't like, but I will not force myself to be kind either, I will just not necessarily go towards those persons. Now the thing is complicated, because there are some things which do not appeal to me in some people whereas I love other things in the same people, so....


It sounds like you are saying that you don’t care about others, only yourself. That to be kind when you don’t really feel like it is hypocritical. That being true to yourself at the expense of others is your right and prerogative and everyone else can kiss your rump- and you’re happy about it. Now I’m the one who feels sorry for you. That is not the attitude of a happy person or one who cares about others. I seriously doubt that a person can ever truly be happy if they don’t put others before themselves.

I care very much for the ones I love, you know. I care very much for them because I know that our relationhips are open and that they will not judge me or force their ideas on me. I give a lot of love to the ones who respect me and I sometimes put them first, this is not incompatible with being true to myself. I do know for instance that I always put my dog first because I am not forced to do so and I don't do so for reasons which seem wrong to me, I do so because it makes me feel happy and in accordance with myself. To me, being true to myself does not mean being selfish.
Now, once again, I'm not sure you can know how a person is happy or not. What you are talking about is only your own view on happiness. What I know about myself is that all those years when I was not true to myself, I was very unhappy and I've been a lot happier since I've realized that i should not be scared of being myself. And I know one other guy who feels the exact same way as I do...

You know, maybe it's all about our lives and the differences between them, and the relations we both have towards the self. I see you defend your ideas very much and that must mean that you are very attached to them because they mean a lot to you according to the way you wish to live your life. I have the same attitude but with different ideas, and I personally see no problem about this difference between you and me... Telling me that I refuse to see things sounds strange to me because it makes me wonder why you cannot accept that I am just different from you. Where is the problem with that? Why do you think that your ideas should be true for me as well? I have no problem about being disagreed with, I only have one about those who want to impose their ideas on me. I'm only talking about myself, I don't think my ideas and ways of seeing the world should be applied to you or anyone else...

[Pensive]

1) I do not think I represent anyone because I find no meaning in judging a group I am in by my own actions

Well, not meaning to be offensive or anything, and I can also relate to/understand what you are trying to imply here seeing how Pakistanis as a whole are judged by what's going on here but don't you think an action by one of us can put those associated with us in peril in normal life situations, for a moment taking it off your mind that you want it otherwise. I would like to quote PL here:


We can elect not to care about the effect that our life has on others, but we cannot elect not to have an effect, and most of the time we cannot help but be affected in turn by others.

[Taliesin]

This reminds me some argument I saw on a local gay forum - it was about people who like to dress up fancy (like as an angel or devil or whatnot) on Gay Pride - on the last years there have been about two or three such people among hundreds of people who looked like average Joes. Of course the media selects those two or three people that look more drag and the result is that the publicity thinks that all homosexuals are dildo-waving, half-naked, feathered-boa-wearing salacious people who constantly expose their sexuality. And that's the picture the public gets. Now, there isn't actually anything wrong about being drag(gish) but well, as the Pride is still a PR-enterprise, there were questions about should this kind of attire be discouraged by the organizers - and the organizers answered generally no, since there is actually nothing wrong in liking to dress up as an angel and people should accept them too. Still, those people become then the representative of homosexual people (since it is probably too much to expect that the media will grow up and pick the less-scandalous images)

And as I already am on the queer topic- do I, as a closeted bisexual for most people, still represent bisexual people when communicating with the folks who do not know?

[PrinceMyshkin]

If someone arrived from another planet and asked to meet with someone who best represented life here on earth, whom would you send?

Or to put it specifically for MotherH, who best represents your family: you, your husband, or which of your children?

[kilted exile]

If someone arrived from another planet and asked to meet with someone who best represented life here on earth, whom would you send?

Or to put it specifically for MotherH, who best represents your family: you, your husband, or which of your children?

I think the point being made by MH (and that I in agreement with) is that the alien wouldnt wait to meet everyone. If they in any way think like the vast majority of humans they would base their opinion based on the sample they see.

Not presuming to speak for MH, but in the second vignette it would not be important as to who most represents her family it would be that the way the one they did see act would lead someone to form opinions on the family as a whole. For example: How many times have people seen a child be rude & think then question the way it is raised?

Whether we like it or not people will judge us on a wider scale based on what the actions of the few they have seen are. It may well be unfair, but that does not change the fact that that is how 99.99% of the world is.

[motherhubbard]

Well...
First I see we disagree about your example of black people. We agree on the fact that some people judge a whole community by basing themselves on the actions of one person. But we disagree about the solution to this. My feeling is that it is not wise to play the game of the judgemental ones, this is why no black person should feel that they have anything to wear on their shoulders because the assumptions of the people who judge the whole community are just unjustifiable to me. Playing this game would be unfair according to me, and certainly not a way of helping groups who are judged like that. My feeling is that they should get out of this vicious circle instead of acting according to it. It seems horrible to me to blame someone for the errors of someone else. You are blaming the blacks for the errors of the racists. When you see a black guy stealing a car, you should only see someone stealing a car, you should not even think that he is black because this has nothing to do with the rest. I cannot believe that you say that stealing the car hurts the image of the entire race.
What I mean is that when you blame the black guy, you nourish the stereotype instead of fighting it.

Your question is biased because when you say 'do you care that your actions may have a negative effect on others?', you assume those things about people being representative of others. The thing is I am not starting from the same basis as you, so for me, this question does not even needs to be asked since it seems logical for me that it is preposterous to judge a whole group by the actions of one person. So, to your questions:



1) I do not think I represent anyone because I find no meaning in judging a group I am in by my own actions
2) I do not modify my behavior because I do not think I represent anyone
3) I feel no obligation to anyone as long as I do not hurt them or go against their freedom.

I don't know if you understand, but our misunderstanding comes from the fact that we do not start our thinking on the same basis and we don't consider the problem the same way. I just do not want to nourish things that seem unfair to me.

I accept that you think you represent a larger group, and that is good if it makes you happy, and all the things I say here are only about my own way of seeing things, my way might be wrong for others, and I just have trouble with the fact that you consider that I am wrong for myself in my view of things, because to me no one is right or wrong, we are just all different. What is right for you might be wrong for others and vice-versa.



Yes, you are right, I am not rude to the ones I don't like, but I will not force myself to be kind either, I will just not necessarily go towards those persons. Now the thing is complicated, because there are some things which do not appeal to me in some people whereas I love other things in the same people, so....



I care very much for the ones I love, you know. I care very much for them because I know that our relationhips are open and that they will not judge me or force their ideas on me. I give a lot of love to the ones who respect me and I sometimes put them first, this is not incompatible with being true to myself. I do know for instance that I always put my dog first because I am not forced to do so and I don't do so for reasons which seem wrong to me, I do so because it makes me feel happy and in accordance with myself. To me, being true to myself does not mean being selfish.
Now, once again, I'm not sure you can know how a person is happy or not. What you are talking about is only your own view on happiness. What I know about myself is that all those years when I was not true to myself, I was very unhappy and I've been a lot happier since I've realized that i should not be scared of being myself. And I know one other guy who feels the exact same way as I do...

You know, maybe it's all about our lives and the differences between them, and the relations we both have towards the self. I see you defend your ideas very much and that must mean that you are very attached to them because they mean a lot to you according to the way you wish to live your life. I have the same attitude but with different ideas, and I personally see no problem about this difference between you and me... Telling me that I refuse to see things sounds strange to me because it makes me wonder why you cannot accept that I am just different from you. Where is the problem with that? Why do you think that your ideas should be true for me as well? I have no problem about being disagreed with, I only have one about those who want to impose their ideas on me. I'm only talking about myself, I don't think my ideas and ways of seeing the world should be applied to you or anyone else...


Sweets, here is the deal, even if you do not want to represent a larger group and you loath everyone and everything and you want no part in the universe it doesn’t matter. People are going to make judgments. This is a fact and therefore the point from which I am starting. Do you care that you contribute to an impression others will make about something larger than yourself even if it unrelated to you or wrong of them to make that judgment? That is the question.

As to the disagreement about black people, I also agree that they should get out from the vicious cycle. But the only way is for people to work together for the betterment of the whole. I know you value independence, but one person can’t stand as strong as a group of people can. I realize that this is another statement with the potential to get your dander up.

Your argument that I am nourishing a negative stereotype by wanting people to rise above their groups stereotype is a little absurd. Should we say instead that if black people want to steal cars then they should without considering how it will further a negative stereotype? That’s poor logic and it’s not going to liberate anyone. If we know what the negative stereotypes associated with our groups, and we all do, then we should make every effort to disprove instead of further those stereotypes.

I am not assuming that people make judgments, they do make judgments. That’s reality. You can say that reality is biased.

If negative stereotypes are unfair to you then why wouldn’t you want to do what you could to change them?

I have no trouble accepting that you are different. The trouble here is in accepting that the world has a way of functioning and as members of the world we must be able to navigate through the world. You don’t have to agree, you can say you won’t support such unfairness, but you won’t be able to show me a society that functions differently.


This reminds me some argument I saw on a local gay forum - it was about people who like to dress up fancy (like as an angel or devil or whatnot) on Gay Pride - on the last years there have been about two or three such people among hundreds of people who looked like average Joes. Of course the media selects those two or three people that look more drag and the result is that the publicity thinks that all homosexuals are dildo-waving, half-naked, feathered-boa-wearing salacious people who constantly expose their sexuality. And that's the picture the public gets. Now, there isn't actually anything wrong about being drag(gish) but well, as the Pride is still a PR-enterprise, there were questions about should this kind of attire be discouraged by the organizers - and the organizers answered generally no, since there is actually nothing wrong in liking to dress up as an angel and people should accept them too. Still, those people become then the representative of homosexual people (since it is probably too much to expect that the media will grow up and pick the less-scandalous images)

And as I already am on the queer topic- do I, as a closeted bisexual for most people, still represent bisexual people when communicating with the folks who do not know?

this is my point exactly. I understand the organizers trouble. It just takes one or two people to bring a lot of hardship to everyone. And the media will never pick an intelligent well-spoken person to represent the group when there is someone half naked waving a dildo who could do the job.

If we don't know you are bisexual then how could you represent that community?


If someone arrived from another planet and asked to meet with someone who best represented life here on earth, whom would you send?

Or to put it specifically for MotherH, who best represents your family: you, your husband, or which of your children?

Kilted does a fine job expressing my thoughts here. All of us keep in mind how we are representing each other. We all try to do our best.


I think the point being made by MH (and that I in agreement with) is that the alien wouldnt wait to meet everyone. If they in any way think like the vast majority of humans they would base their opinion based on the sample they see.

Not presuming to speak for MH, but in the second vignette it would not be important as to who most represents her family it would be that the way the one they did see act would lead someone to form opinions on the family as a whole. For example: How many times have people seen a child be rude & think then question the way it is raised?

Whether we like it or not people will judge us on a wider scale based on what the actions of the few they have seen are. It may well be unfair, but that does not change the fact that that is how 99.99% of the world is.


:thumbs_up

[Sweets America]

Sweets, here is the deal, even if you do not want to represent a larger group and you loath everyone and everything and you want no part in the universe it doesn’t matter. People are going to make judgments.

I agree.


This is a fact and therefore the point from which I am starting.

I understand, I start from the same point.


Do you care that you contribute to an impression others will make about something larger than yourself even if it unrelated to you or wrong of them to make that judgment? That is the question.

This is a good question and my answer is no. This answer, for me, does not mean that I am selfish. It means that I do not wish to fall into the trap set by people who make the mistake of judging a whole group by the actions of one person.
You might think that this answer of mine is the wrong one, but this answer only is about myself and is in accordance with how I see the world, and it is my response to behaviors that I refuse to accept. I wish to dissociate myself from people who make those kinds of amalgams, so I refuse to act according to something which stays inside of the way those people view the world.


Your argument that I am nourishing a negative stereotype by wanting people to rise above their groups stereotype is a little absurd.

I don't think so, my argument is just stating that I wish to look farther than the tip of my nose and to escape from those judgemental people, to get out of the circle of their unfair behavior instead of responding with something which is indirectly dictated by them.


Should we say instead that if black people want to steal cars then they should without considering how it will further a negative stereotype?

Absolutely. I know it will hurt your eyes to read this, but to me, if a black guy steals a car, he should only feel guilty about the fact that he steals a car, not about the fact that he is black and about the fact that some ignorant people will make amalgams about the color of his skin. Indeed he should laugh at the absurdity of this idea.


That’s poor logic and it’s not going to liberate anyone. If we know what the negative stereotypes associated with our groups, and we all do, then we should make every effort to disprove instead of further those stereotypes.

I'm not sure my logic is poor, I would rather say that's a logic that you don't understand because your logic is very different from mine.
Struggling to disprove the stereotypes would only give them some unjustified legitimacy. It would mean that you recognize that there might be truth in the stereotype, that you give it the importance that it does not deserve. If you think that my attitude furthers the stereotypes, then you really don't get what I mean. Balck people, Jews... should be FREE, and have NO MORE obligation than any other group. If someone looks at you and interprets an image of your family based on you only, then look at this person with a puzzled glance, be amazed at some of the unjust and strange human ways of thinking and go on living your own life peacefully, with the knowledge that you only know who you and your family members are. That's the best response you can give, according to me.


If negative stereotypes are unfair to you then why wouldn’t you want to do what you could to change them?

My attitude to change them is NOT to give them any legitimacy or credibility. Some people judge a whole group on one person? Ok, that's their problem and that should not disturb those who know that their thinking is not justified.

Anyway, I stated my point and you stated yours... do we need to go further than that?

[Umbilical]

Well...
I'm Jewish and a lesbian.
I'm a bad lesbian because I've never really been a lesbian for the lesbians.
I don't even know what it means.

*laughs* So silly.

[ampoule]

MH, I'm curious, is this for one of your classes?
***
Sweets, when you come to Oregon and you represent yourself, those people are going to fall in love with you, but there will be one or two who will say, "Man, those French people aren't as bad as I thought."
***
Aliens? Hmmm.....I imagine them saying, "What's the big deal? If you've seen one human, you've seen them all."

[papayahed]

Not presuming to speak for MH, but in the second vignette it would not be important as to who most represents her family it would be that the way the one they did see act would lead someone to form opinions on the family as a whole. For example: How many times have people seen a child be rude & think then question the way it is raised?


I was just about to post something to that effect. I always wonder what effect those reality shows and Girls Gone Wild videos have on the rest of the family. I would just die if one of my family was caught on tape being falling down drunk showing off their "wares". And I would be too worried about my grandparents seeing it to even consider it.

[motherhubbard]

Anyway, I stated my point and you stated yours... do we need to go further than that?

I agree that discussing this with you is pointless. I do appreciate your honest answer to the questions and I do not judge you for them.


I was just about to post something to that effect. I always wonder what effect those reality shows and Girls Gone Wild videos have on the rest of the family. I would just die if one of my family was caught on tape being falling down drunk showing off their "wares". And I would be too worried about my grandparents seeing it to even consider it.

This kind of behavior and the glamorization of this behavior do not improve women’s status in the eyes of young men or young women. I wonder how many of those women only value themselves for their sex appeal and how many men value these women for the ease with which the get drunk and put out.


MH, I'm curious, is this for one of your classes?
***


I recently read The Souls of Black Folk and The Temple of my Familiar and they have prompted me to want to discuss these things with other people. I’ve always given it a great deal of thought, but I was raised with a great sense of duty. I believe that it takes the efforts of individuals to make things better for the whole and that everyone should do their part.

I was recently listening to a rather rough girl that is going through the parenting class we put on. She was telling about her experience at the Little Rock Children’s Hospital. I’ve never been there but I gather it’s in a rough area. You have to wait in the parking lot for security to walk you to the building. She took her daughter and found herself in a waiting room with angry looking black men wearing red bandannas on one side, angry black men wearing blue bandannas on the other side, and angry white men in doc martins with shaved heads in the middle. She stood along an wall so as not to appear to support any side and one of the black people called her a smart cracker.

I’ve been thinking about this and I just want to scream at every group. It’s hard for me to understand how these red or black wearing black people can’t see past the bandanna and unite to make a stronger black community. Think of the effort, allegiance, and money invested in gang membership. Sure it may help an individual is some small way, but with great risks. They could have put that same effort into higher education, family units, stopping violence, giving children a safe environment, or the vote. Instead they took a part that tears down families, neighborhoods, communities, and even races. Then I consider the skin heads and get even more angry. If the black race is inferior, as they believe, then why do they fear, hate, and stifle them? Why can’t they say black or white we are all poor, and then unite behind their poverty to make the entire community better? I get frustrated and angry at these petty prejudices. I found myself wondering how I would have been able to keep my mouth shut if I were her. I suppose I would have only concerned with my sick child and so it wouldn’t have been an issue.

When I was young I was the only white girl in my class, four white children in a grade of 200 or so. I knew well what kind of discrimination black people faced and I also knew how unfair that was. But I understood that as long as discrimination existed these people would have to work their butts off and be better than those who discriminated. In the end they would be so much better off if they could just stay strong for the race. Have you ever heard of the Little Rock Nine?

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=723
http://www.littlerock9.com/

Not too long ago I listened to a lecture by Dr. Terrence Roberts and I felt so sorry for what he endured and so proud of what he became. If everyone who faces some kind of prejudice could come through like him the would certainly be a better place. He is such a fine example.

I become so disheartened when people refuse to consider the greater good and instead serve only their own desire. It is this kind of greed and apathy that has brought about every sorrow and injustice. Think of how much good one person is capable of and then multiply that by seven billion. We have so much potential, but we sell ourselves and the world short when we only chase after our own satisfactions. You know, some yokes are easier than they may at first appear. Perhaps it is just that the reward is worth the burden.

[papayahed]

I agree that discussing this with you is pointless. I do appreciate your honest answer to the questions and I do not judge you for them.


This comes up a lot. What is the difference between having an opinion and judging?

[motherhubbard]

This comes up a lot. What is the difference between having an opinion and judging?

that's not a bad question. I think opinion sounds less judgmental and that's the big difference. :D Really, just less condemning. Judgment sounds so final. It's like saying 'you're xxx and that's the end of it!' an opinion is more subject to change.

[papayahed]

that's not a bad question. I think opinion sounds less judgmental and that's the big difference. :D Really, just less condemning. Judgment sounds so final. It's like saying 'you're xxx and that's the end of it!' an opinion is more subject to change.

That's what I was thinking too, It's kinda easy not to judge but highly impossible not to have an opinion. A lot of what were talking about is opinion.

[motherhubbard]

It's kinda easy not to judge but highly impossible not to have an opinion.

:smash: In my judgment that’s the absolute truth

[ampoule]

Think of how much good one person is capable of and then multiply that by seven billion. We have so much potential,

And I believe it really does start with the individual. Families can't get along, neighbors feud and so on and so forth. Anything is worth the effort but it's a very complex situation. So often the groups we belong to are to help us feel better about ourselves, to learn and teach, safety in numbers, protection. But if we don't have self-worth it won't matter how many groups we belong to. From the time I was a Girl Scout I think I have always been a joiner, a part of groups. As far as I know these groups have never been to make others look less or me look better. I resigned from a sorority because people had to be voted in.
I think a huge part of the reason for gangs is self-worth and unemployment, hopelessness. It's not easy to just stand up one day and say everything's cool with the world, I'm going to go out right now and get a good job with benefits, have a nice home, go on a vacation once in awhile...and then hit a brick wall or be slapped down or laughed at. There are those wonderful stories about someone who is able to do that, to stand up one day and make a difference, but many will get lost in the cracks, or "crack" literally. On the Kairos Outside weekend I just worked on, I wept aloud with a woman as she stood in front of all of us holding a picture of her son in his cap and gown, as she told us "we had all of our hopes in this boy. He was the one. He was the smart one but he got in with the wrong crowd". And there he is in prison.
I still think the artist Mary Englebreit says it all when she says, "Everyone needs their own spot". Everyone should be able to "Bloom Where You Are Planted". Pollyanna? Yes. But isn't it a worthy goal? And then to bring the rest of the human race along with us no matter what color, sex, race, age...whatever? Some people don't get a 'spot' because someone else has to have two or three or four and then look down on the 'spotless' one for not having a spot. HEY! YOU! Get back here and clean up that SPOT! ;) It's not MY spot. You clean it up.

[motherhubbard]

And I believe it really does start with the individual. Families can't get along, neighbors feud and so on and so forth. Anything is worth the effort but it's a very complex situation. So often the groups we belong to are to help us feel better about ourselves, to learn and teach, safety in numbers, protection. But if we don't have self-worth it won't matter how many groups we belong to. From the time I was a Girl Scout I think I have always been a joiner, a part of groups. As far as I know these groups have never been to make others look less or me look better. I resigned from a sorority because people had to be voted in.
I think a huge part of the reason for gangs is self-worth and unemployment, hopelessness. It's not easy to just stand up one day and say everything's cool with the world, I'm going to go out right now and get a good job with benefits, have a nice home, go on a vacation once in awhile...and then hit a brick wall or be slapped down or laughed at. There are those wonderful stories about someone who is able to do that, to stand up one day and make a difference, but many will get lost in the cracks, or "crack" literally. On the Kairos Outside weekend I just worked on, I wept aloud with a woman as she stood in front of all of us holding a picture of her son in his cap and gown, as she told us "we had all of our hopes in this boy. He was the one. He was the smart one but he got in with the wrong crowd". And there he is in prison.
I still think the artist Mary Englebreit says it all when she says, "Everyone needs their own spot". Everyone should be able to "Bloom Where You Are Planted". Pollyanna? Yes. But isn't it a worthy goal? And then to bring the rest of the human race along with us no matter what color, sex, race, age...whatever? Some people don't get a 'spot' because someone else has to have two or three or four and then look down on the 'spotless' one for not having a spot. HEY! YOU! Get back here and clean up that SPOT! ;) It's not MY spot. You clean it up.


All of this is very true, Amp. It’s so very hard. What I’m thinking about, in part, is how we belong to groups in the eyes of others- even if in reality we do not- and how that can be used to create change.

Discrimination seems so silly to me. The example that comes quickly to mind is my friend who is Chinese. She looks just like the Japanese, Korean, or Viet Namese to me, but she can tell the difference. Did you know that some Chinese are prejudice against the Viet Namese. It seems so silly to me because I can’t tell a difference, they all look oriental. We might say the same thing about the Tootsie and Hutu, but still millions died over a fabricated difference.

Someone further up in the tread said that it was good to be a good representative of different groups even if you are not a part of the group. I agree.

In the case of gangs, I do understand the importance of belonging. I think it would be just fine if we were all in gangs if the gangs we were part of worked toward the betterment of mankind. What we find is that gangs operate a little like a pyramid scheme and are about us being better by lowering the status of another. There is nobility is the desire to be better a better person and the determination needed to make oneself better. There is no nobility is putting others down in order to look better yourself.

I think the example of what I’m trying to discuss was given by Taliesin here


This reminds me some argument I saw on a local gay forum - it was about people who like to dress up fancy (like as an angel or devil or whatnot) on Gay Pride - on the last years there have been about two or three such people among hundreds of people who looked like average Joes. Of course the media selects those two or three people that look more drag and the result is that the publicity thinks that all homosexuals are dildo-waving, half-naked, feathered-boa-wearing salacious people who constantly expose their sexuality. And that's the picture the public gets. Now, there isn't actually anything wrong about being drag(gish) but well, as the Pride is still a PR-enterprise, there were questions about should this kind of attire be discouraged by the organizers - and the organizers answered generally no, since there is actually nothing wrong in liking to dress up as an angel and people should accept them too. Still, those people become then the representative of homosexual people (since it is probably too much to expect that the media will grow up and pick the less-scandalous images)



Your comment about the woman with the son in prison made me think of a great book called A Framework For Understanding Poverty by Ruby Kay Payne http://www.amazon.com/Framework-Understanding-Poverty-Ruby-Payne/dp/1929229143 I think that every educator and really just anyone who deals with people should read this book. It really does a good job of explaining the conditioning that comes with one’s socioeconomic status. have you read it?

[kiz_paws]

Wow, fascinating thread, M-H! :nod:

I have no idea what 'group' I would be associated/judged with, my religion is a mixed bag, my background is a mixed bag, my belief system is still a mixed bag ... hmmmm ... you get the point.

But anyhow, the question you posed brought to mind a situation that my mother had when the grocery chain that she worked for went on strike. They went on strike for guaranteed hours and a few other important things (it was not my issue, and I tended to tune-out, as they say, when my mother would speak of it -- which was ALL the time...).

ANYHOW, she was picket-ing and this woman confronted her angerly, pushing a shopping cart right into her, causing her some pain. The woman spat at my mother and said, "and YOU go to CHURCH" ...

My mom was devastated. This woman was a member of my mom's own church, and she acted like that.

Now, my mom did not judge the entire congregation based on this woman's decision to abuse her.

AND that woman did not know what my mom was doing in the picket line -- well, I'll tell you. My mother is quite secure, and always would be, due to the wonderful husband she married (my hero, natch). She didn't even HAVE to work. She chose to because it got her out of the house once the nest emptied, which was such a lonely time for her.

She worked with a wide spectrum of individuals, from students part-time, to single mothers, and so on. Well, a dear co-worker of my mother was due to be let go if they didn't picket and take up the cause (again, I can't remember all the clauses, and it would bore everyone, anyhow).

So, to make the long story short, my mother picket-ed (how DO you spell that, anyhow!) because she didn't want this woman to be out of a job. This woman's husband was killed in action, had three little kids and badly needed her job and the security that it provided. Losing it meant the bottom falling out of the barrell for her and her children. So that was my mother's CAUSE. And that woman who spat and pushed a shopping cart into my mother judged her for picket-ing and said those things about the religion of choice my mother had, using that as a weapon against my mother.

What point am I making? I don't know anymore -- but it reflects on the original question about how we can/may be judged by affeliations that we have out there.

Cheers, and great thread!

K♥zzo

[motherhubbard]

Wow Kiz- thanks for sharing the story. I think it goes to show that when we know a person or a group, like the woman or the church your mother attended, it's easier not to judge the whole based on the one or the one based on the whole. Most people who judge the group because of the actions of the one know neither.

I think that woman really showed her rear. It's ironic too because your mother was acting in the best interest of another which is in accordance with the Bible and the woman condemning her was the one out of step.

[kiz_paws]

Ummm ... my mother was sad, but it was I who took her Bailey's Irish Creme mixed with that coffee to keep her warm on "the lines", lol!!

Ya do what ya gotta! ;)

[dramasnot6]

Every day I come across Australians who ask me questions about America as if I alone represent the entire country and culture.

[Virgil]

Every day I come across Australians who ask me questions about America as if I alone represent the entire country and culture.

Really drama? I always think of you as so Austrailian. :lol: :lol:

[mercy_mankind]

So my questions are-

Do you feel that your conduct and performance reflects upon those whom you represent? Do you modify your behavior so that your will be a better reprehensive of the larger population? Do you feel an obligation to your group?

I think that everyone represents the most important thing in his life.
for me I always tell myself that I have to be an ambassadress for Islam .
I know it is a great responsibility, but i'm not sure Am I a good representative for Islam?
I have to be sure of my acts , I have to be careful in my speechs as I have to do with Islam in everything.
but as i said before that we have to differentiate between the source and people's acts.
I might do something wrong against the source , then I find someone telling me that is from your religion.
I don't understand , Is that one is waiting for a mistake to accuse my religion of it?!
for example there are ten students in one class with one teacher . 6 of students are so smart and study hard , and four of them are lazy students could hardly read some words.
so you will ask parents of both smart students and lazy ones .
parents of smart students will say that our sons and daughters were studying as their teacher taught them and they were doing their homeworks and so on ...
parents of lazy students will say
it is not their sin , the teacher is the only one who is responsible for their failure .
I want to illustrate that sometimes we find people accuse the source of their thoughts so as not to be responsible for their acts but when they do realy with Islam they won't do such mistakes or a great mistakes as you mentioned about hijackers.And when they did , there is something called punishment .
so I'm trying to represent Islam in everything as this is my logo in life "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds: " (6:162).

[motherhubbard]

I think that everyone represents the most important thing in his life.
for me I always tell myself that I have to be an ambassadress for Islam .
I know it is a great responsibility, but i'm not sure Am I a good representative for Islam?
I have to be sure of my acts , I have to be careful in my speechs as I have to do with Islam in everything.
but as i said before that we have to differentiate between the source and people's acts.
I might do something wrong against the source , then I find someone telling me that is from your religion.
I don't understand , Is that one is waiting for a mistake to accuse my religion of it?!
for example there are ten students in one class with one teacher . 6 of students are so smart and study hard , and four of them are lazy students could hardly read some words.
so you will ask parents of both smart students and lazy ones .
parents of smart students will say that our sons and daughters were studying as their teacher taught them and they were doing their homeworks and so on ...
parents of lazy students will say
it is not their sin , the teacher is the only one who is responsible for their failure .
I want to illustrate that sometimes we find people accuse the source of their thoughts so as not to be responsible for their acts but when they do realy with Islam they won't do such mistakes or a great mistakes as you mentioned about hijackers.And when they did , there is something called punishment .
so I'm trying to represent Islam in everything as this is my logo in life "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds: " (6:162).

I agree with your great example of the students in the class and they truth of how some people will look for something they can blame you or judge your religion for. But not just you, Mercy, everyone in every group has that to deal with.

I wonder how you feel about it when people do something like the hijackers, what would you say to them? These men had a grievance and felt very strongly about their cause and I think they believed they were doing it in the name of Allah (maybe I’m wrong but it was reported that they prayed and prepared as if they did believe that) I wonder how you or more so how Islam would have them deal with the problem they were upset about. This may be better discussed in PMs, either way I wonder.

Thanks for your response.

[dramasnot6]

Really drama? I always think of you as so Austrailian. :lol: :lol:

:lol: Far from it, I think.

[kilted exile]

We all represent something beyond ourselves. We are part of our family, community, race, gender, religion and so on. One person’s behavior effects the appearance of the larger group. One example may be hijackers who are Muslim giving peaceful Muslims a bad name. There are examples for everybody, though.


So my questions are-

Do you feel that your conduct and performance reflects upon those whom you represent? Do you modify your behavior so that your will be a better reprehensive of the larger population? Do you feel an obligation to your group?



Seeing as we are bumping old threads today

[Scheherazade]

Do you modify your behavior so that your will be a better reprehensive of the larger population? Do you feel an obligation to your group?I think this happens a lot. Even though I do not set out in the mornings with the notion that I will be representing a certain social group, the expectations of "others" are pressed upon: Being a female, being a foreigner, being a teacher, being a foreign female teacher...

People do expect us to fit in certain stereotypes. Sometimes my behaviour perfectly fits in with their expectations without any trouble but sometimes I do make conscious efforts not to fit in beause those stereotypes bother me.

As a young girl, I was refused a chance for a better education opportunity because I did not need it as a female anyway (!); so I made sure that I studied hard enough to get all the scholarships afterwards not to be refused in such a manner; that as a female I could do whatever I chose to do whether it was expected of me or not.

I love working; could never stay at home but after being told by a nurse -upon hearing that I was an immigrant and had a job - that "at least [I] was the working kind", I don't think I could ever stop working with an easy mind because that is people's expectation of me.

So, I do think we all represent something whether we like it or not; it would be pointless to deny this point blank just because it does not go hand in hand with the romantic images of self we have of ourselves.

However, we can show our individuality through the ways we react and/or respond to those expectations that result from how we are represented.

[Niamh]

I think for many people, especially when they are travelling, they feel obliged to behave differently from the stereotypes placed on their country. I know i do.