Death of a Salesman Discussion

[Chester]

Does anybody want to discuss "Death of a Salesman"? I read this Arthur Miller play in high school (long, long ago). I don’t remember it meaning that much to me at the time. I just recently read it again and was surprised by how moving I found it to be. Did this play touch anybody else here as much as it seems to have touched me?

[Pecksie]

I too was moved by it.

[Pecksie]

I too was very moved by it. I think we all have seen people like W. Loman, who believe so wholeheartedly (so naïvely, I may say) in the American dream that they're pathetic... Even if they live in a country where that dream is very difficult to achieve, they cling to those cheap success ideologies and, almost inevitably, fail...

Added poignancy is, of course, added by the fact that when the play was written the United States were perhaps the most economically powerful country in the world, so this particular man's failure must have seemed even more tragic. Why did he fail? After all, he did everything he was supposed to do, almost by the book...

I recently saw the play performed in Buenos Aires by a splendid Alfredo Alcón. The only drawback was a very awkward, neutral-Spanish translation, such as plays performed here and originally written in English often suffer from. But it could also be said that the bad translation mimicked those of American self-help books that are sold here in Latin America, to people who think they can really find the clues to get rich inside them!

[valleyjune]

It's one of my favourite plays. I read it some months ago and still have images form it in my mind. It seems tragic but rather common at the same time, people to be failed by their own selves and expectations, and as a result, create imaginary worlds where they live isolated from the "real" one, as well as real people and relationships. I believe this attitude, in other words "escapism", was typical for its time and was a reaction to the realization of the failure of the American Dream ideal.

The thing I loved most was the use and symbolism of natural environment, light and music in the play and the presentation of the background story with the woman. Really loved it :yawnb:

[JBI]

It felt a little dated to me. Especially the female characters.

[amalia1985]

I loved it too as a student, and I love it even more now. Especially the final scene, in Willie's funeral, with Linda's touching words. Furthermore, I admired the "flashback" technique that Miller used.

[Chester]

Yes, amalia1985, it seems to mean more to us now than as students. Why? Maybe because one needs a certain amount of life experience out in the working world to more fully appreciate it. Maybe?

I think it moved me because I have been Willy Loman. I should preface any remarks I make about this play by stating that I have been in sales (in some form or another) for 25 years. I have been “out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine.” I have had great successes and I have had tremendous failures. I think the American Dream, in some respects at least, exists. One has opportunities here. But one also needs to know one’s limitations and one needs to become intimately familiar with one’s own unique talents and skills and interests. These things ought to form the direction of one’s life, not some vague idea of what “success” is. Ultimately I have learned this. Maybe not learning this was Willy’s downfall, I don’t know.

Either way, I related to Willy. I understood his frustration almost to a painful degree. This piece of dialogue from Willy I swear I have said at times in my career verbatim: “But I gotta be at it ten, twelve hours a day. Other men – I don’t know – they do it easier.” Wow, I didn’t just read that, I felt it.

This idea, this idea of broken dreams, seems timeless to me, although, JBI, I might agree that the treatment of the female characters might seem a bit dated. This seems a minor point to me, though.

valleyjune, this idea of escapism is interesting. I am thinking Willy was escaping, in a sense, through his strong desire to live vicariously, to find the success he never himself found, through Biff. Was this escapism, in fact, “typical for its time”? I wonder. Pecksie has mentioned the poignancy in the idea that Willy’s failure is even more tragic because of the times, times where the US was economically strong, and I think I agree. This post-war period was one of the strongest, not just in economic terms, but this was a real feel-good period as well. In fact, I’m always surprised by the timing of this play.

Anyway, these are just some of my thoughts. I welcome anybody else’s.

[Scheherazade]

Not Miller's best, in my opinion.

[Chester]

Of course not. That would have been Marilyn Monroe. ;)

[Scheherazade]

Such a shame that her heart belongs to her Daddy, eh?

;)

[amalia1985]

Yes, Chester, I agree with you. Although I am relatively inexperienced in the working world, I can realise that the "struggling" and the innate need to fulfill certain expectations exists, even in Teaching. I believe that a lot of the concepts and ideas present in Miller's play, regarding society, economics, searching for the "ideal"- if I may use the term- are better understood- and perhaps, experienced- once we're out of school.

[Pecksie]

I think the lessons, or moral, or impact of this play will gain added poignancy in a few years' time, when all of us corporate firm slaves :( grow old and look back on our youth and what (if anything) we have achieved. The last few years have witnessed (at least where I live) an incredible growth of the "corporate culture", with all that it entails - merciless competition, backbiting, and the need to be sitting there at your desk 24/7 lest someone younger and smarter beats you to the top... In a way, of course, it has always been like that (otherwise we would have no Willy Loman), but maybe in recent years, with the unprecedented technological progress and its appurtenances, it's gotten worse... And perhaps the ugliest thing is that (as with all social trends in life) a so-called philosophy has sprouted to uphold it, as witnessed by the numberless self-help books for executives...

Fodder for reflection, ha ha...

Have a good day!

[Chester]

This idea of following society’s "ideal" or being sucked into the "corporate culture" is all too common, I am thinking. We subordinate our own goals or, worse, we don’t even allow ourselves to have personal goals outside of what society says is good. I heard a good line once about how tragic it would be to spend one’s life climbing the ladder only to find once you’ve gotten to the top that it’s leaning against the wrong wall.

But surely there’s nothing wrong with dreaming and setting out to achieve something is there? There are dreams and then there are society’s standards of dreams. Surely Miller wasn’t slamming the former, was he? Are we wrong to think we can achieve something that we set out to achieve? I don’t want to think the play was that cynical.

[kelby_lake]

It felt a little dated to me. Especially the female characters.

well it was written a fair while ago (!) anyway, isn't willy living in the past? he cannot keep up with modern life. such an upsetting play

[Chester]

EDIT: Removed now-irrelevant complaint about this thread being merged with others. Never mind.

[Gladys]

Did this play touch anybody else here as much as it seems to have touched me?

Absolutely, and I loved The Crucible too: the pathos of intuitive Linda, listening to Charlie at the graveside saying of Willy, “a salesman is got to dream” though his life had “no rock bottom”. Willie sees life and success after the suicide - for “Biff and I”. Still chasing his dream, Willy dies elated, for which Linda is thankful.

Since Willy didn’t see suicide as final, Linda keeps expecting him home, and struggles with the cruel paradox: success through suicide, life within death...and cannot cry. Hence, “We’ve free…”. But Willie is the only winner because Biff needs a dad; Linda, a husband; and Happy, a dream.

[Chester]

Hi Gladys. I never read (or saw) The Crucible. Always wanted to, though, and I will make it a point of doing so. Perhaps we can come back and discuss it under this thread, since it’s Arthur Miller and apparently there’s no reason therefore to break it out into a separate thread.

gloew, I hope you get that project of yours sorted out. Please let us know. We’ll be here. Under this thread.

Robert E. Lee? Where have you gone? The last I checked you were reading DOAS in your English Class, prompting you to start this very thread of which my conversation has been made an inextricable part. Of course that was more than 5 years ago. I imagine you have probably graduated by now. Maybe even settled down and gotten yourself married or something. Hope you're still reading.

[Scheherazade]

Chester> Some threads are merged to be able to help those who come to the Forum looking for help with their assignments. Unfortunately, your thread has been confused with those (search function cannot tell them apart).

Your thread now has been restored. Sorry for the mix-up.

[Chester]

Thanks very much, Scheherazade. Being fairly new I was concerned that maybe threads around here become merged almost randomly. Nice to know that's not supposed to be the case. Thanks again. :)

[gloew]

do you guys have any clue of any similarity in death of salesman n the curious incident of the dog?esp the characteristic and theme or others?thanks

[Chester]

I'm not familiar with The Curious Incident of the Dog. But I suppose one can compare and contrast any two pieces of literature. Why these two in particular?

[kelby_lake]

don't the protagonists both go wandering off?

[Lacking]

I know that this is a little off topic, but I am in desperate need of help.
I need pages 101-108...and I don't own the book.

Could anyone possibly scan those pasges for me, and send them to me via e-mail?

Please HELP!