music - poets

[vitaminsoad]

i wanted to call this thread like "hidden poets", because as i know, many who are interested in literature or so, say that musicians (rockmusicians) are not poets, they write lyrics for music and so on... so, i know many musicians who write poems and just use them like songs, but there are many musicians who are poets, and write poems and so on and we dont know it. so my question would sound like, if it is right to seperate music lyrics from poems and poetry? maybe there are talkings about that, but im just curious and want to know.
because poets like Serj Tankian usually are ignored as poets because of fact that he is musician.

[JBI]

I agree, much of music is just sung poetry. Unfortunately, most singers of poetry aren't singing good poetry, and therefore we judge them for their music, and not their words. If you can provide an example of lyrics that stand up to good poetry, than the discussion can really go on, but as it is, there aren't many good lyricists (I am strained to think of any who deserve to be read and not listened to)

Either way, modern tastes in music aren't as focused on poetry as past songs. I know in the Chinese tradition, that most poems are titled something along the lines of "To The Tune of 'Insert Tune' " In fact, the oldest collection of Chinese poetry is an anthology of songs. Greek Poetry as well originated as song, as did most of the worlds poetry (if not all). The problem is however, for the lasting words, it is rare that the tune has lasted, and for the lasting tunes, it is rare that the words measure up. I enjoy listening to Schubert's Erlkonig, and reading the poem by Goethe, but give me a song by Radio Head for instance, I am strained to find anything worthwhile in the words. Even the best Rock musicians seem to be horrible lyricists. Take Simon and Garfunkel+Bob Dylan for instance. Great song writers, great performers, but when it comes to just reading their work, I get bored quickly. Most people who can play an instrument and sing cannot write good words, and most people who can write good words cannot play an instrument. It is rare that you get a polymath who can do both, but I am strained to find a modern song writer in English who can be read amongst the others as poetry.

[amanda_isabel]

i would definitely nominate the OPM (Original Philippine Music) band Hale! (sorry, it hink my fanaticism is getting the best of me here.) like i said in another thread, one of the reasons i love this band is because of their lyrics...

ie., Requiem, from their recently released album Above, Over and Beyond

it's too late
it's too soon
for you to go
away from us

where are you going
when will i see you again
if i could just go with you
but we all die alone

i wanna be brave
i wanna be brave like you
you went into darkness
you fell in darkness
and you will carry on

did he open the gates
he let you in
so that you can see me
down here

please don't worry
we're all doing fine
taking it nice and slow
we are so proud of you

[vitaminsoad]

damn, you all are so smart here?

human can do a lot of things, and people who say that rockmusicians cant write poem because they write songs are wrong. damn it, practically all songwriters i know are poets. its not like seperated genre. of course you shouldnt compare some classicism poet with rockstar, becasue these are different times at first.

[JBI]

No, they can't write a good poem. It is not because they are rock musicians, but because they are crappy writers. Even the best rock musicians, such as Pink Floyd have mediocre lyrics when compared to poets like Elizabeth Bishop, writing at that time. Seamus Heaney's poetry outstrips anything I have ever seen written by any rock musician, as do many other poets' work. It is not my fault you cannot provide me with a set of rock lyrics that measure up to any poet deemed great by our society.

To me you just seem determined to justify Rock music as expressive poetry, which it shouldn't be. It is rock music, not rock poetry. There is a difference, mainly that we are willing to let mediocre words slide if the tune is catchy enough.

Rock musicians can write poems, like I said, it just so happens that none (or perhaps just an extremely vast majority) of their poems are worthy of being read over other poets' work.

[vitaminsoad]

No, they can't write a good poem. It is not because they are rock musicians, but because they are crappy writers. Even the best rock musicians, such as Pink Floyd have mediocre lyrics when compared to poets like Elizabeth Bishop, writing at that time. Seamus Heaney's poetry outstrips anything I have ever seen written by any rock musician, as do many other poets' work. It is not my fault you cannot provide me with a set of rock lyrics that measure up to any poet deemed great by our society.

To me you just seem determined to justify Rock music as expressive poetry, which it shouldn't be. It is rock music, not rock poetry. There is a difference, mainly that we are willing to let mediocre words slide if the tune is catchy enough.

Rock musicians can write poems, like I said, it just so happens that none (or perhaps just an extremely vast majority) of their poems are worthy of being read over other poets' work.



it seems that you talk about everyone, which is completely not right. read some Tankian's poem.

[JBI]

Post a piece of it, I will read it, and comment.

[Chester]

Even the best Rock musicians seem to be horrible lyricists. Take Simon and Garfunkel+Bob Dylan for instance. Great song writers, great performers, but when it comes to just reading their work, I get bored quickly.
This may say more about you than about, for example, Bob Dylan's lyrics. I feel compelled to point out that "Desolation Row" was included in The Oxford Book of American Poetry (Oxford University Press, 2006, Edited by David Lehman). Now, that may not be sufficient evidence that rock lyrics are equal to great (non-musical) poetry. But "horrible lyricist" might just be going a bit too far, in my estimation. I'll take anything off of Highway 61 Revisited or Blonde on Blonde, with or without the music.

[JBI]

Yes, there are great lyrics in some of the musician's opus. Firstly Desolation Row is more a folk song than rock song (Dylan wrote both types throughout his career, and this is the only song on the album to not use an electric guitar), but that is besides the point; there are exceptions, but for the most part, you don't need good lyrics to fuel a good song. I simply named Simon and Garfunkel, and Bob Dylan because they are, to me at least, the best lyricists of rock music. But please, try to read anything by The Rolling Stones, or Hendrix, or even The Beatles. You'll find it rather dull without the music.

[Tiny Dancer]

FINALLY.. now this is my type of topic.
Ahem.. i am a very big Bob Dylan fan in case you had not noticed.
I would like to point out that any one reading say, I am the Walrus by The Beatles or Happiness is a Warm Gun would not be bored.
They are fascinating songs, obscure and fascinating. If they are not to your taste then what about another Beatles song Across the Universe. It is beautiful.. even if only read and not heard.
Words are flowing out like
endless rain into a paper cup
They slither while they pass
They slip away across the universe
Pools of sorrow waves of joy
are drifting through my open mind
Possessing and caressing me

Jai guru deva om
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world

Images of broken light which
dance before me like a million eyes
That call me on and on across the universe
Thoughts meander like a
restless wind inside a letter box
they tumble blindly as they make their way
across the universe

Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world

Short and sweet..

and songs like While my guitar gently weeps and Dear Prudence..
Cat Stevens is wonderful as well and Dire Straits (though i am prejudiced on that one)

[Tiny Dancer]

OH and Let It Be
forgot it
silly me


wow there is a little bit of poetry for you.

[JBI]

Honestly, none of those even compare to the worst of Elizabeth Bishop, or Theodore Roethke, or Robert Lowell, or Dylan Thomas, or James Merrill (those names are chosen because they were contemporary at that time). The fact remains that beatles lyrics are meh, and to be honest their music a little meh (I'll probably have knives flying at me now) and exists as popular as it does for its cultural implications more than its artistic creativity. Their lyrics are so-so at best, and down right stupid at worst.

That being said, I have listen to my fair share of Beatles songs (I can sing along with over 200 of them more or less perfectly). I just don't think, as lyricists thought of as poets, they even come close to shaking the worst major poet of their time period.