can song lyrics be considered poerty/prose?

[jikan myshkin]

i generaly find that many people hold the viewpoint that 'lyrics' can not be poerty, despite the likes of dante's lyrical poetry. i personally think that they all constitute poetry/prise as the contain words. in lou reed's album 'new york' each song contains enough substance to be expanded into a novel. also reed once said that if 'heroin' had been a novel, for example a burroughs piece- there would have been no controvasy. i'd put ian curtis on a par with ballard et al, and leonard cohen and dylan? well we all know about them...

[JCamilo]

They are certainly poetry, since poetry is a form of language.
THey are not poems, which is a form of text. If you try to transform every other art (in this kind music) to literature, you will just downgrade the vallue of those arts. Lou Reed - great musician, why does he need to be called of something else? (Plus, having enough substance to be expanded to a novel? What that is supposed to mean, that a form of expression can be transformed in another form of expression? What is new about that?)

[jikan myshkin]

(Plus, having enough substance to be expanded to a novel? What that is supposed to mean, that a form of expression can be transformed in another form of expression? What is new about that?)

it means that generally speaking music lyrics are considered to lack substance and with novels the longer novels are generaly considered to contain more substance, (possibly a side effect of some authors waffling). whereas in a song say 'romeo had juliet' there is a very high literary quality to it which should not be disregarded due to the form. it appars that you disagree with this general assumption but i assure you my comment is based on hard research compiled through life. maybe, (and very likely), i haven't come across those who find joy in the writen form. :)

[amanda_isabel]

hmm.. i think that some lyrics can be considered as literature.. after all weren't some of the greatest genres in literature, ie. the sonnet, meant to be sang? i'm not sure on this and my brain is a little rusty so... anyway.

there is this band here in the Philippines, Hale, that i'm a fan of, and one big reason is due to their lyics. the lyrics to their debut song, Broken Sonnet:

And now I concede
On the night of this fifteenth song
Of melancholy, of melancholy
And in this next line
I'll say it all over again
That I love you, I love you

I don’t care what they say
I don’t care what they do
‘cause tonight I'll leave my fears behind
‘cause tonight I'll be right at your side

Lie down right next to me
Lie down right next to me
And I will never let go
Will never let go

The clock on the tv says 8:39 pm
It’s the same, it’s the same
And in this next line
I'll say it all over again
That I love you, I love you

I don’t care what they say
I don’t care what they do
‘cause tonight I'll leave my fears behind
‘cause tonight I'll be right at your side

Lie down right next to me
Lie down right next to me
And I will never let go
Will never let go

I'll leave my fears behind
‘cause tonight I'll be right at your side.

But still I see the tears from your eyes
Maybe I'm just not the one for you


i remember reading once that since they were adding some of the new 'slang' terms to a certain dictionary, justin timberlake, et al., could already be considered the Shakespeare of today. i think i was ten or eleven and i felt appalled, really. most lyrics just can't be considered literature, but of course there are some exceptions.

[GoofyFlamingo]

I think that though the music itself can be a form of poetry, but not a poem, i also think that the lyrics, when written down, are a poem. many songs actually start as poems that are later put to music. so yes, i think song lyrics can be considered poetry.

[jgweed]

Perhaps the better question would be: are song lyrics GOOD poetry?

[jikan myshkin]

I cannot follow you, my love,
you cannot follow me.
I am the distance you put between
all of the moments that we will be.
You know who I am,
you've stared at the sun,
well I am the one who loves
changing from nothing to one.

Sometimes I need you naked,
sometimes I need you wild,
I need you to carry my children in
and I need you to kill a child.

You know who I am...

If you should ever track me down
I will surrender there
and I will leave with you one broken man
whom I will teach you to repair.

You know who I am...

I cannot follow you, my love,
you cannot follow me.
I am the distance you put between
all of the moments that we will be.

You know who I am...

(c) l. cohen

[JCamilo]

Let's no judge vallue (if it is good or not).
The writen words, the lyrics of anything, can be regarded as literature.
His question is however another, if they can be poetry or prose.

Poetry, if we ignore those using the synounimous that means nothing (as poems) is the use of language, born before the writen text. You do not need to write anything down to use poetry - so the lyrics use poetic devices, they are poetry. They are not poems because poems is a writen form of text, without doubt derivated from oral form, but once put in a paper they are a writen work.
You can even call the lyrics alone a poem, but that is misleading. First, one musician works his words to be sung, they are mixed with the tunes, etc. They are complete as a song, just like the pictures of movie, despite a movie being pictures in sequence, are not a movie. Other thing, music happened before the literature, if you get a art with her own power (Music) and call the work of this art (the song, which lyrics is a part) and his artist (the musician) as another literature, you are causing an inversion of vallue - A musician must be reggarded with all his power as musician. It is status enough.

Jikan, I do not disagree that a good lyric, some of them, are exceptional and have strong literary vallues - I am saying they have also musical vallues because they are complete as songs. I would never think novels are more substance than anything (I mean, Code Da Vince or Dom Quixote ?). And basically, the theme of a music, of a statue, a painting, etc, all have potential to inspire a text.

P.s. Leonardo Cohen is a great example, since he is a rare case of good poet and great music writer - He keeps saying that writing a poem is different from writing for a song. Yet, if I listen to So Long Marianne, the "field green lilac park" is just alive within my head. Great poetry, great song.

[motherhubbard]

After doing a unit on Byron, Shelly, and Keats my high school English teacher passed out a copy of a poem and asked everyone who they thought the author was. Most people guessed one of the three we had just studied, but a couple said Shakespeare. I was the last person in the class and I couldn’t believe no one was getting it. I didn’t speak much in class, but when it was my turn I said Paul Simon and everyone looked at me like I was from another planet. I was embarrassed but I was also right. I have to say some music is poetry.

[jikan myshkin]

Let's no judge vallue (if it is good or not).
The writen words, the lyrics of anything, can be regarded as literature.
His question is however another, if they can be poetry or prose.

Poetry, if we ignore those using the synounimous that means nothing (as poems) is the use of language, born before the writen text. You do not need to write anything down to use poetry - so the lyrics use poetic devices, they are poetry. They are not poems because poems is a writen form of text, without doubt derivated from oral form, but once put in a paper they are a writen work.
You can even call the lyrics alone a poem, but that is misleading. First, one musician works his words to be sung, they are mixed with the tunes, etc. They are complete as a song, just like the pictures of movie, despite a movie being pictures in sequence, are not a movie. Other thing, music happened before the literature, if you get a art with her own power (Music) and call the work of this art (the song, which lyrics is a part) and his artist (the musician) as another literature, you are causing an inversion of vallue - A musician must be reggarded with all his power as musician. It is status enough.

Jikan, I do not disagree that a good lyric, some of them, are exceptional and have strong literary vallues - I am saying they have also musical vallues because they are complete as songs. I would never think novels are more substance than anything (I mean, Code Da Vince or Dom Quixote ?). And basically, the theme of a music, of a statue, a painting, etc, all have potential to inspire a text.

P.s. Leonardo Cohen is a great example, since he is a rare case of good poet and great music writer - He keeps saying that writing a poem is different from writing for a song. Yet, if I listen to So Long Marianne, the "field green lilac park" is just alive within my head. Great poetry, great song.

so long marianne was first a poem before a song which show you how unless you know it can be hard to tell (despite obvious ones). mother, you back up this point

[JCamilo]

I do not get you, Marianne is exactly the good option because it is her (the Marianne) that caused Cohen to change poem writing to music creation and have both qualities - But read well, rare case. I rest with Cohen own words.

"People often ask me whether I set the poems to music, but I think I know the difference between a lyric and a poem. Most of my songs began with the phrase of music and a phrase of the lyric. Usually, the tunes were completed before the lyric. Then, there’s that long process of uncovering the lyric, and fitting it to the melody. "

[JBI]

After doing a unit on Byron, Shelly, and Keats my high school English teacher passed out a copy of a poem and asked everyone who they thought the author was. Most people guessed one of the three we had just studied, but a couple said Shakespeare. I was the last person in the class and I couldn’t believe no one was getting it. I didn’t speak much in class, but when it was my turn I said Paul Simon and everyone looked at me like I was from another planet. I was embarrassed but I was also right. I have to say some music is poetry.

Or that some students know nothing about style. Lets be honest, who cannot distinguish between Shakespeare, Byron, and Simon. The Language is completely different. It's like comparing Chaucer with Shakespeare; you can clearly see which is which.

That doesn't make the Simon song any better or worse, it just means that all these kids barely understand mechanics.

I am in agreement with an above poster, the question really is "are these songs good poetry." Songs are poetry, the problem is that most of them suck. You don't need good poetry for a good song, especially with modern trends.

[ballb]

The lyrics of Shane McGowan and Bob Dylan stand up as poetry in their own right.

[kat.]

I just wanted to name Bob Dylan... :)

[JBI]

Hmm Leonard Cohen should be up there too. He is actually somewhat renowned as a poet here.

[JCamilo]

Vinicius de Moraes is maybe the best brazilian sonnet writer and also one of founders of Bossa Nova musical style.

[jikan myshkin]

I do not get you, Marianne is exactly the good option because it is her (the Marianne) that caused Cohen to change poem writing to music creation and have both qualities - But read well, rare case. I rest with Cohen own words.

"People often ask me whether I set the poems to music, but I think I know the difference between a lyric and a poem. Most of my songs began with the phrase of music and a phrase of the lyric. Usually, the tunes were completed before the lyric. Then, there’s that long process of uncovering the lyric, and fitting it to the melody. "

that was my point! though maybe in a less abstract way.:)

[jikan myshkin]

holy quartet

leonard cohen
bob dylan
lou reed
ian curtis

[Erichtho]

Formally lyrics are poetry, though usually pretty bad one. ;)

[[D]]

Song lyrics are absolutely poetry.

[stlukesguild]

Song lyrics are absolutely poetry.

Certainly. How good or bad is another question altogether.

[ben.!]

I agree, song lyrics are poetry.

Ever heard Be Quiet and Drive (Accoustic Version) ~ Deftones? The lyrics behind that is a short poem in my view, they are amazing words.

Stairway to Heaven ~ Led Zeppelin is another I would consider poetry. Bohemian Rhapsody ~ Queen too.

In fact, I consider all songs with lyrics a form of poetry. Just depends on how good they are, as to whether I like the poetry.

Maybe it should be a new form of poetry - 'Lyrical' poetry.

[Tiny Dancer]

I definitly think song lyrics are poetry in their own right and in some ways even more beautiful because it is accompanied by music
BUT
It also depends on the type of music, artist and song.
I believe Bob Dylan's song are worthy of being called poetry. Every song has a story, every song is filled with raw emotion. He sings it exactly as he sees it. Same with Simon and Garfunkel.. Each song is unique.
I do not believe songs by artists such as My chemical romance and bullet for my valentine have any worth what so ever. So i have basically contradicted myself. ha...

[Tiny Dancer]

I agree, song lyrics are poetry.
Stairway to Heaven ~ Led Zeppelin is another I would consider poetry. Bohemian Rhapsody ~ Queen too.

In fact, I consider all songs with lyrics a form of poetry. Just depends on how good they are, as to whether I like the poetry.


HA there we go.. someone who has an excellent taste in music and knows exactly what i mean.. i think. ahem.
The End by The Doors is definitly poetry.. so are many other songs by them.
Cat Stevens too. Believe it or not MANY of Metallica's song are worthy of the title poetry such as Nothing Else Matter (FANTASTIC SONG) and Wherever I May Roam
songs about longing and pain..
A brilliant song is Ain't No Reason By Brett Dennen i only discovered it the other day. Very touching.

[Page Sniffer]

Structually they are similar to a pantoum, as the lines are repeated at intervals and roll into the next stanza. Quality is a whole other issue, and as we all have seen and heard, something doesn't have to be well written to be popular.

Tiny Dancer ~ Metallica, yes. I'm sure you also know Metallica's music was done by a symphonic orchestra.

[mono]

*bump*

I suppose I prefer resurrecting an old thread, rather than starting another one on music lyrics as poetry. A couple nights ago, I saw Bob Dylan here in Portland, and, having always loved his music, seeing him live, I think, only enlivened my love for his music and poetic lyrics even more - an easy example to make in interpreting music lyrics as poetry, but an undeniable one. He did well at balancing older songs with newer ones, too, but I really wish he would have performed, in my opinion, one particular song with some of his best poetry, as follows:

A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall

Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
And where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it,
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it,
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin',
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder that roared out a warnin',
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world,
I heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin',
I heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin',
I heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin',
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter,
I heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
And who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony,
I met a white man who walked a black dog,
I met a young woman whose body was burning,
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow,
I met one man who was wounded in love,
I met another man who was woundedin hatred,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
And what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin',
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest dark forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison,
And the executioner's face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where the souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I'll tell it and speak itand think it and breathe it,
And reflect from the mountain so all souls can see it,
And I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

[Jazz_]

I agree that song lyrics can be considered poetic - some of the examples already listed are obvious proof of this...

[Desolation]

There's been a lot of buzz and debate about this in other forums that I go to in the last week, as articles started popping up about Bob Dylan deserving the Nobel Prize in literature.

Personally, I think that Bob Dylan is going to end up being one of the most endearing "poets" of the 20th century, particularly the latter half. While 'Like A Rolling Stone' may forever be known as the crowning achievement of rock 'n roll, songs like 'A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall', 'It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding', 'Desolation Row', 'Not Dark Yet' and others will be dissected in English classes as examples of great poetry.

Of course, my opinion is very slanted by the inextricable link in my mind between Bob Dylan and literature, as I was introduced to Bob by my favorite high school English teacher, and Bob Dylan's intense writing style got me interested in literature.

Leonard Cohen also deserves a special mention for his excellent use of words. However, I do not believe that other great songwriters, such as Paul Simon, Warren Zevon, Tom Waits, Jackson Browne, and John Lennon, could be studied the same way. Their lyrics are beautiful in song form, but are generally completely dependent on the music.

[JBI]

There's been a lot of buzz and debate about this in other forums that I go to in the last week, as articles started popping up about Bob Dylan deserving the Nobel Prize in literature.

Personally, I think that Bob Dylan is going to end up being one of the most endearing "poets" of the 20th century, particularly the latter half. While 'Like A Rolling Stone' may forever be known as the crowning achievement of rock 'n roll, songs like 'A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall', 'It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding', 'Desolation Row', 'Not Dark Yet' and others will be dissected in English classes as examples of great poetry.

Of course, my opinion is very slanted by the inextricable link in my mind between Bob Dylan and literature, as I was introduced to Bob by my favorite high school English teacher, and Bob Dylan's intense writing style got me interested in literature.

Leonard Cohen also deserves a special mention for his excellent use of words. However, I do not believe that other great songwriters, such as Paul Simon, Warren Zevon, Tom Waits, Jackson Browne, and John Lennon, could be studied the same way. Their lyrics are beautiful in song form, but are generally completely dependent on the music.

Well, Dylan has been appreciated by the academies as a writer already - he's in the Norton, he has classes taught on him across different countries - he is very much a literary figure.

Cohen is a different beast, since, though he is an excellent song-writer, he is also a renowned novelist and poet, working in literature before music - so there is that tinge. He too though has been accepted into the academia, even for his song lyrics.

But lets be honest - these guys are two great geniuses - the best of their genre. There have, historically been fantastic songwriters - poetry itself was highly tied to music - The Iliad itself was a sung poem. That does not mean though, that lyrics need to be good - I think, especially now, catchy is considered better than poetic in song lyrics.


Though, there will always be mediocre non-readers of poetry who prostitute some meh song lyric as "good poetry", or some terrible rap song as fantastic spoken poetry. It's kind of depressing.

My brother told me, that in his creative writing class in high school that he is just taking, the teacher asked the kids to bring in their favorite piece of writing - he said, besides himself, who took in a printing of the Sucking Stone sequence from Beckett's Molloy, everybody, to the chagrin of the teacher, brought in terrible lyrics from popular bands, or rappers.

It's kind of pathetic - is this what people think is good? Are students so uncultured that they can't fake themselves as being at least a little bit knowledgeable in literature, and grab the obvious stuff, like the opening of Dickens' Tale of Two Cities, or some clippings from Robert Frost?

So, while I appreciate the art of songwriting, I feel that in a sense we shouldn't make exceptions on quality based on genre. We shouldn't say, for instance, it is good because it is a good song and has decent words, and therefore is good poetry. We should just say, "it is good poetry, and is also a great musical composition." When you think about it, how good a song is has nothing to do with its lyrics' quality as poetry. We can respect the two when they cross to provide a great form, but we shouldn't bend over and say "song lyrics are poetry". Ultimately, It's almost like calling those mediocre angstful teenage rant-verses an artform. Occasionally, you get a teenager with real talent, but ultimately, almost everything penned by teenagers is terrible, my verses included.


Now, had I been choosing what to bring to that class, well, I would have been torn between something arrogant like Milton's Lycidas, or Crane's Voyages, or even something simple, yet brilliant like Blake's Sick Rose - not because they are particularly my absolute favorites, but because reading them and being able to discuss them implies a sense of knowledge and understanding of how writing works - bringing something silly like Hit me Baby One More Time implies that you're taking the course because you can't quite handle anything challenging, and you know nothing about literature.

[mono]

But lets be honest - [Dylan and Cohen] are two great geniuses - the best of their genre. There have, historically been fantastic songwriters - poetry itself was highly tied to music - The Iliad itself was a sung poem. That does not mean though, that lyrics need to be good - I think, especially now, catchy is considered better than poetic in song lyrics.


Though, there will always be mediocre non-readers of poetry who prostitute some meh song lyric as "good poetry", or some terrible rap song as fantastic spoken poetry. It's kind of depressing.
I feel relieved, JBI, that you mentioned the tradition of poetry, particularly Greco-Roman, sung rather than recited as most poets do today; I hoped to mention the same, but you beat me to the punch. Not only Homer's The Iliad or The Odyssey often presented themselves in a musical form, but most plays composed in similar times, such as those by Sophocles, Euripides, Aristophanes, or Æschylus, had choral performers, functioning much as narrators or observers; it seems no surprise, in addition, that the nine muses' areas of specialties often overlapped in terms of different genres of music and poetry. Much closer to present times, even farther into the first and second generation Romantics, who highly revered the Greco-Romans and often alluded to them, most poetic works they composed in rhythms, Coleridge and Byron, in my opinion, seeming two of the most superior in that art.
I agree with you, these days one rarely sees a sufficient quality of poetry in music, particularly mainstream music; Cohen, Dylan, and many others appear as exceptions, but most of them have aged nearly to retirement, having gained so much experience in the music industry that their poetic songwriting likely seemed a large contributing factor as to why they have created music for so long. I suppose this seems one reason why the majority of music I personally listen to comes from the 1950's-1990's, if not instrumental. In rap, where I feel nowadays the 'c' is silent, as the popular saying of critics goes, the alleged art has deteriorated to the subjects only of glamour, fashioned by unqualitative, for-profit, appetitive "artists," supported even greater by capitalistic, starved-for-what-sells record industries. Rap began as beat poetry and slam poetry, and reading/hearing some of the lyrics from its roots of the 1960's-70's, highly influenced by jazz/blues artists and African culture, one cannot deny the obvious talent of restricting words to unique rhythms, the storytelling, and creation of "art for art's sake," as many of the first rappers began (and some ended) poor, in suffrage, and struggling with sociological ties within subcultures. That the art has now suffered through decades to the production of the equivalent of fecal matter through speakers and subwoofers saddens me, yet the deterioration of such creativity via desire for profit and appetitive means certainly happens.
Why combine music and poetry, regardless, I feel compelled to ask? Do some musicians lack the talent to produce good music alone, alluring to the ear, hence feel the need to write lyrics that give the music a further purpose? Do some poets feel the need to make their poetry that much more powerful by having its support by music? In the words of Stevie Wonder, one of the most prominent voices of Motown, "music is a world within itself with a language we all understand," yet the universal language of music, enveloped within its own abstract qualities, does not quite seem enough for some musicians/poets. One can interpret instrumental classical works by Chopin, let us say, one of his nocturnes, and feel relaxed, at ease, peaceful, but lyrics give music a message within that universal language in a shared language - art brought to words, why Kant considered poetry the most superior of all arts. In terms of musical qualities, without the lyrics, most Bob Dylan songs flow with much simplicity, with a few off-beat rhythms here and there with the strokes of his right hand, but that he, amid other songwriter/poets, writes such powerful words to those somewhat elementary rhythms, astounds the listener into his messages, whether metaphorical (as in "The Times Are A-Changin'") or more blunt (like in "Positively Fourth Street"), placing a restriction upon his words via rhythm, yet still proving the talent of conveying a beautiful message or story.
Honestly, I would feel overwhelmed if everyone wrote such poetic lyrics and simtultaneous good music, such as Dylan or Cohen, and the less-talented songwriters, not to mention names, in my opinion, only make such even more distinguished, furthermore giving them a purpose to not only write, but to write well. Many songwriters exist, "amateur" and "professional," and undoubtedly even more poets, but there must subsist the "haves" and "have-nots," so to speak.

[JBI]

Meh, how good a song is, how good the lyrics aren't always the same thing - and even really good lyrics, and really good poetry make it into song form occasionally - this famous poem, http://my.iciba.com/blog-3284714-198759.html , ultimately becomes this famous pop song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz8-FzYxP3w - the rules between poetry and music are so mixed up. The song is nothing like the poem in context - the singer bends the words - first by making the speaker a woman, which changes much of the meaning, and secondly by emphasizing - the 900 year gap between the respective artist's ages also changes how the setting of the poem communicates.

Even something like Thomas Wyatt's verses written in Octaves were originally set to music (I found that out by asking a professor why the scansion on them was so wacky) - how does that effect the metrics of the poetry then, now that we no longer have the music? Are they better for it now, or worse?

Ultimately, I don't see a connection between good lyrics and good music - it's just that sometimes they go hand in hand, by some fluke.

[mono]

Meh, how good a song is, how good the lyrics aren't always the same thing - and even really good lyrics, and really good poetry make it into song form occasionally - this famous poem, http://my.iciba.com/blog-3284714-198759.html , ultimately becomes this famous pop song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz8-FzYxP3w - the rules between poetry and music are so mixed up. The song is nothing like the poem in context - the singer bends the words - first by making the speaker a woman, which changes much of the meaning, and secondly by emphasizing - the 900 year gap between the respective artist's ages also changes how the setting of the poem communicates.

Even something like Thomas Wyatt's verses written in Octaves were originally set to music (I found that out by asking a professor why the scansion on them was so wacky) - how does that effect the metrics of the poetry then, now that we no longer have the music? Are they better for it now, or worse?

Ultimately, I don't see a connection between good lyrics and good music - it's just that sometimes they go hand in hand, by some fluke.
Agreed, and I did not intend on sounding otherwise in my previous message, but thanks for clarifying and for posting the links. Good music and good lyrics, indeed, do not always come together, as there almost always must seem at least one special feature of a song; Led Zeppelin found a fantastic balance between often writing poetic lyrics by Robert Plant (such as in "Ten Years Gone"), intricate guitar work by Jimmy Page (the guitar solo of "Since I've Been Lovin' You" speaks for itself), stunning organ/Moog and piano work by John Paul Jones (like in "No Quarter"), and the often extended and amazing drum solos of John Bonham performed live on "Dazed and Confused." Good music seems required in writing a good song, poetic lyrics optional, and some musicians, again, not to mention names, have neither, in my opinion. One, however, can compensate for another; The Beatles, especially, in their very early days, wrote ear-catching, up-beat tunes, but their lyrics sounded, for the most part, simple, flirtatious, and playful, perhaps explaining their earlier audience majority of screaming and raving young women; as they grew, much more poetic lyrics emerged, such as those from "Strawberry Fields Forever" or "Let It Be," creating a balance between their music talents in addition, not to say their lyrics ever seemed entirely bad - they only evolved and improved.

[sixsmith]

I'm dubious as to lyrics as 'poetry' and i tend to keep them in separate camps. Even Dylan, who is obviously a very clever and 'poetic' lyricist, doesn't have any lyrics that stand alone as particularly good poetry. But here, i'm comparing Dylan, Cohen, Waits et al to my favourite poets. I think if we are going to say Dylan is a poet he has to pay his dues.

It's no coincidence that great lyrics are written by great songwriters. I can think of very few lyrics that aren't made significantly greater by the song that accompanies them.

[JBI]

I'm dubious as to lyrics as 'poetry' and i tend to keep them in separate camps. Even Dylan, who is obviously a very clever and 'poetic' lyricist, doesn't have any lyrics that stand alone as particularly good poetry. But here, i'm comparing Dylan, Cohen, Waits et al too my favourite poets. I think if we are going to say Dylan is a poet he has to pay his dues.

Its no coincidence that great lyrics are written by great songwriters. I can think of very few lyrics that aren't made significantly greater by the song that accompanies them.

Your dismissal of Dylan is generally disagreed upon - he has made the major anthologies for his song lyrics, including the Norton, of, I believe, both poetry and American poetry. To suggest nobody thinks them good is really an assumption - his lyrics have been praised, and have been studied like poetry - I don't think you can really justify your argument that they aren't poetry.


Are they as good as Keats or whomever though? Well, I don't play the value game, I'll leave that for you guys to decide.

[stlukesguild]

Poetry... in written form... relies solely upon the words to create the music and the meaning. This is quite different with the song. With a song (an aria, chanson, lieder, ballad, pop song, etc...) the music and the words combine to create the music and the meaning. If we take a song such as the Beatle's Norwegian Wood, the lyrics in and of themselves are not bad. There is something open-ended and surely more sophisticated than the usual teen age love song... but we are talking Shelley/Keats/Blake/Yeats here. With the music, however, the song takes on a greater meaning as the music and the inflections of the singer's voice reinforce the words.

Perhaps the greatest example of this is to be found in the songs of Franz Schubert, long acknowledged as t greatest classical song writer. Schubert famously set a cycle of poems by Wilhelm Müller known as Die Winterreise (the Winter's Journey) to music. The poems on their own are but mediocre examples of German Romantic poetry. They most certainly are not upon the level of Goethe, Schiller, Holderlin, or many others whom he might have set (and did on other occasions). The musical accompaniment, however... the piano and the vocal... reinforce... expand... or even contrast with the actual lyrics making the end result far more profound that the lyrics standing upon their own.

The attempt to tear down an art form into separate elements seems wrong-minded to me. Because a film works brilliantly in no way means that if we dissect it we will find that each individual element will be found to work brilliantly independent of the whole... that the screen play will stand as great literature, the cinematography as great photography, the musical score as worthy of standing along side Beethoven, etc... The whole in a work of art is not necessarily simply defined as a sum of the parts. Inflated claims for the "poetry" of John Lennon, Robert Plant, Lou Reed, etc... underestimates real poetry as well as it underestimates the the importance of the music in song and the merger of the two in creating the whole.

[stlukesguild]

Ultimately, I don't see a connection between good lyrics and good music - it's just that sometimes they go hand in hand, by some fluke.

In the case of a composer using a poet's words it seems to be hit or miss... depending upon the taste of the poet. Schubert, for example, seems to have been attracted to Romantic German poetry... the work of contemporaries or near contemporaries. Sometimes his choices were good (Goethe)... other times they were mediocre. The French song writers such as Debussy, Faure, Hahn, Chausson, Ravel, etc... don't seem to have been much more consistent in choosing the best poets: Verlaine, Baudelaire, Valery one minute... then some mediocre imitator the next. Still... in neither instance does the merit of the poem guarantee the merit of the song... for better or worse. Mahler's great symphonic cycle, Das Lied von der Erde (the Song of the Earth) is built upon a German translation (mediocre at best) by Hans Bethge of Chinese poetry from the Tang Dynasty. Yet the resulting work... especially the closing Der Abschied or "Farewell" is among the most profoundly moving in the whole of orchestral lieder and powerfully conveys the composer's own feelings of the transience of life and his own impending death. Sung by the inimitable Kathleen Ferrier who was dying at the time the resulting work in almost unbearable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LE48mLGBdI&videos=mAPMDeIA-kk&playnext_from=TL&playnext=1

[JBI]

Hmm, St Lukes, what do you make of the Hesse and Eichendorff that Strauss set for the Four Last Songs?

[Jozanny]

I'm dubious as to lyrics as 'poetry' and i tend to keep them in separate camps. Even Dylan, who is obviously a very clever and 'poetic' lyricist, doesn't have any lyrics that stand alone as particularly good poetry. But here, i'm comparing Dylan, Cohen, Waits et al to my favourite poets. I think if we are going to say Dylan is a poet he has to pay his dues.

It's no coincidence that great lyrics are written by great songwriters. I can think of very few lyrics that aren't made significantly greater by the song that accompanies them.

sixsmith,

This is one of the rare times we disagree. Sure, commercial lyrics to pop music can seem to amount to nothing, but some of Bernie Taupin's lyrics for Elton John carry more weight than 50 poems I could copy from 50 ezines and really make Logos mad at me. Captain Fantastic is the greatest soft rock album of the 70's, period, hands down, I don't want to hear one word about The Stones or The Who. I know the album like the back of my hand, and it is a work of art, of homoerotic subversion bar none. (I like the subversion involved in homoerotic subtexts more than I actually care about same sex love; it seems to create its own radicalized challenge, and breaks convention in interesting ways, which is why I am sorry to see the closet opening for good in the West, but this is another topic and the moderators probably wouldn't be thrilled with me if I created it). Anyway, there is such a thing as lyric poetry. I don't write it much, as I prefer the traditional modern contortions of narrative and imagery, but I have to agree with luke and JBI. Lyricism, when handled with care, can have as much power as Dante's Comedia, or Donne, etc.

As to Dylan, like Elton, his later material is crap, but some of his lyric verse is taught, and has layers that make it worth teaching.

[sixsmith]

sixsmith,

This is one of the rare times we disagree. Sure, commercial lyrics to pop music can seem to amount to nothing, but some of Bernie Taupin's lyrics for Elton John carry more weight than 50 poems I could copy from 50 ezines and really make Logos mad at me. Captain Fantastic is the greatest soft rock album of the 70's, period, hands down, I don't want to hear one word about The Stones or The Who. I know the album like the back of my hand, and it is a work of art, of homoerotic subversion bar none. (I like the subversion involved in homoerotic subtexts more than I actually care about same sex love; it seems to create its own radicalized challenge, and breaks convention in interesting ways, which is why I am sorry to see the closet opening for good in the West, but this is another topic and the moderators probably wouldn't be thrilled with me if I created it). Anyway, there is such a thing as lyric poetry. I don't write it much, as I prefer the traditional modern contortions of narrative and imagery, but I have to agree with luke and JBI. Lyricism, when handled with care, can have as much power as Dante's Comedia, or Donne, etc.

As to Dylan, like Elton, his later material is crap, but some of his lyric verse is taught, and has layers that make it worth teaching.


Without wanting to be defeatist in the context of this discussion, it's possible i am being a little narrow minded here. That is due in part to my, shall we say 'organic' education in poetry, and something of a reactionary attitude to the great many singer-songwriters who try to wear their literary influences on their very inadequate sleeves.

So perhaps i'm just not reading Dylan 'the poet' properly, or perhaps i'm reading him with blinkers. I should point out that as a perennially frustrated songwriter (and possible member of the aforementioned class), I number Dylan and several others amongst my artistic idols. I've just always had reservations as to how his lyrics stack up as poetry; as a form that, as St Lukes says, relies on words to to create the music and meaning. But i'll revisit these reservations.

As for 'Captain Fantastic', i won't dispute you on its merits. Unfortunately, it only serves to sharpen the very steep decline which followed.

[JCamilo]

I think an overall house favorite gives the answer in those lines (Which are not exactly the words, because I did not read Borges in english): Poems remember that once they are music. Not exactly what he wanted to say, but if they remember, it means we have something different now, an artifice to create the aesthetic emotion that music created. We would be silly do deny the exchanges and ties between then (just like we can get a musical film, lets say An American in Paris, and split the movie, the dancing, the singing and even the script and analyse it... which would be forgeting that each part was meant to support the other and yeah, people do walk by the street, see Leslie Caron and start to dance) but we would be also silly to not point that Music does not need the status to be considered literature - it is an old artform and quite powerful already on its own.
It is good to have a good poet that is also a musician or vice versa. However read or listen to bossa nova and Vinicius de Morais - can see this.

[drakemortuare13]

I guess one could say that songs are considered as poetry. Lyrical poetry at least, seeing as they contain several of tyhe same elements such as rhyme, rhythm, and so on.

[stlukesguild]

Hmm, St Lukes, what do you make of the Hesse and Eichendorff that Strauss set for the Four Last Songs?

Of course I may be biased in that Strauss' Last Four Songs are among my absolute favorite works. Obviously Eichendorff and Hesse are both major German poets. I stupidly didn't pick up the copy of the Complete Poems of Hermann Hesse that I came across a good number of years back. The introduction to the book was written by Thomas Mann who stated that his friend and peer was sometimes underrated as a novelist... perhaps in comparison with Mann's own work... but that his abilities as a lyrical poet were unquestionable. Most of the poems were quite brief and lyrical... and not overly challenging for my rudimentary German... that is even less than rudimentary now.

The poems strike me as simple, lyrical pieces chosen as they suggest the passing of the seasons and how that alludes to the transience of life. There is surely a certain musicality to the original German lyrics... but I'd need to live with them a while... or read them in context to a larger body of the work to develop a greater feel for them. Obviously, reading poetry in another language without a deep knowledge of that language... its history, uses, literature etc... demands that the work be read with good notes that will draw attention to certain allusions or precedents for a certain turn of phrase etc... although perhaps no such critical commentary will lead us to as deep of an understanding of the poems as Strauss' music.

[Jozanny]

IPoems remember that once they are music.

I am going to borrow this sentence from you, although I will not be returning it, most likely.:eek2:

Sixsmith isn't altogether wrong though. Popular music is sort of a pap smear unto itself, slurped with regret when we're forced to drink condensed milk.

I don't listen to commercial radio anymore. My ex-fiance, who makes Falstaff as Anthony Hopkins seem credible, thinks Michael Jackson was a genius. I think Michael Jackson was manufactured, to borrow from our resident anti-Mozart fellow.

But I conveniently remembered my academic training and thought a definition of lyric poetry would be useful:

"Lyric Poetry consists of a poem, such as a sonnet or an ode, that expresses the thoughts and feelings of the poet. The term lyric is now commonly referred to as the words to a song. Lyric poetry does not tell a story which portrays characters and actions. The lyric poet addresses the reader directly, portraying his or her own feeling, state of mind, and perceptions."

http://www.types-of-poetry.org.uk/31-lyric-poetry.htm

It ain't the same as song lyrics, and I knew that before I interjected myself into this debate, but the wall between lyric and stanza really isn't hard and fast. American record labels can certainly make it feel that way, however.

[vallugi]

Cheers!
Valikie
Out of the many posts, this one attract my attention. I believe it is possible for anyone to participate.
Excellent ! I like it very much.
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[Drkshadow03]

I remeber in WRT compostion 101 one of the assignments was to select song selects and write an interpretation (my first year of college), I also remember in my American poety class as a last day fun activitiy we got to bring in one song for everyone to listen to with printed out lyrics and we read it as "poetry." I think vocal music has poetic qualities, but like JCamillo I think of it as its own thing. The song I selected for both assignments was NOFX's The Decline:

NOFX
The Decline (1999)
The Decline

Where are all the stupid people from?
And how'd they get to be so dumb?
Bred on purple mountain range
Feed amber waves of grains
To lesser human beings, zero feelings

Blame it on
Human nature, mans destiny (mans destiny)
Blame it on the greediocracy (greediocracy)
Fear of God
The fear of change
The fear of truth

Add the Bill of Rights, subtract the wrongs
There's no answers
Memorize and sing star spangled songs
When the questions
Aren't ever asked
Is anybody learning from the past?
We're living in united stagnation

Father what have I done?
I took that 22
A gift to me from you
To bed with me each night
Kept it clean
Polished it well
Cherished every cartridge, every shell

Down, by the creek, under brush, under dirt
There's a carcass of my second kill
Down, by the park, under stone, under pine
There's a carcass of my brother William
Brother where, have you gone to?
I swear, I never thought I could
I see so many times
They told me to shoot straight
Don't pull the trigger, squeeze
That will insure a kill
A kill is what you want
A kill is why we breed

The Christians love their guns
The church and NRA
Pray for their salvations
Prey on the lower faiths

The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized

Jerry spent some time in Michigan
A twenty year vacation, after all he had a dime
A dime is worth a lot more in Detroit
A dime in California, a twenty dollar fine

Jerry only stayed a couple months
It's hard to enjoy yourself while bleeding out the ***
Asphyxiation is simple and fast
It beats seventeen fun years of being someones *****

Don't think (Stay)
Drink your wine (Home)
Watch the fire burn (Be)
His problems not mine (Safe)
Just be that model citizen

I wish I had a schilling
(For each senseless killing)
For every senseless killing
I'd buy a government
America's for sale
And you can get a good deal on it
(A good deal on it)
And make a healthy profit
Or maybe, tear it apart
Start with assumption
That a million people are smart
Smarter than one

Serotonin's gone
She gave up, drifted away
Sara fled, thought process gone
She left her answering machine on
The greeting left spoken sincere
Messages no one will ever hear

Ten thousand messages a day
A million more transmissions lay
Victims of the laissez faire
Ten thousand voices, a hundred guns
A hundred decibels turns to one
One bullet, one empty head
Now with Serotonin gone

The man who used to speak
Performs a cute routine
Feel a little patronized
Don't feel bad
They found a way inside your head
And you feel a bit misled
It's not that they don't care, yeah

The television's put a thought inside your head
Llike a Barry Manilow, jingle
I'd like, to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
A symphonic blank stare, yeah
It doesn't make you care (make you care)
Not designed to make you care (make you care)
They're betting you won't care (you won't...)

Place a wager on your greed
A wager on your pride
Why try to beat them when, a million others tried?

We are the whore
Intellectually spayed
We are the queer
Dysfunctionally raised

One more pill to kill the pain
One more pill to kill the pain
One more pill to kill the pain
Living through conformity

One more prayer to keep me safe
One more prayer to keep us warm
One more prayer to keep us safe
There's gonna be a better place

Lost the battle, lost the war
Lost the things worth living for
Lost the will to win the fight
One more pill to kill the pain

Na na na na na
La na na na na
Na na na na na
Na na na na na

The going get tough, the tough get debt
Don't pay attention, pay the rent
Next of kins pay for your sins
A little faith should keep us safe

Save us
The human, existence
Is failing, resistance
Essential, the future
Written off, the odds are
Astronomically against us
Only moron and genius
Would fight a losing battle
Against the super ego
When giving in is so damn comforting

And so we go, on with our lives
We know the truth, but prefer lies
Lies are simple, simple is bliss
Why go against tradition when we can
Admit defeat, live in decline
Be the victim of our own design
The status quo, built on suspect
Why would anyone stick out their neck?

Fellow members
Club "We've Got Ours"
I'd like to introduce you to our host
He's got his, and I've got mine
Meet the decline

We are the queer
We are the whore
Ammunition
In the class war
We are worker
We love our queen
We sacrifice
We're soilent green

We are the queer
We are the whore
Ammunition
In the class war

[mono]

Ugh, sorry to get so repetitious, but, I think, ever since seeing the man live weeks ago, I have grown a bit obsessed. Another triumph from Dylan himself:

Tomorrow is a Long Place

If today was not an endless highway,
If tonight was not a crooked trail,
If tomorrow wasn't such a long time,
Then lonesome would mean nothing to you at all.
Yes, and only if my own true love was waitin',
Yes, and if I could hear her heart a-softly poundin',
Only if she was lyin' by me,
Then I'd lie in my bed once again.

I can't see my reflection in the waters,
I can't speak the sounds that show no pain,
I can't hear the echo of my footsteps,
Or can't remember the sound of my own name.
Yes, and only if my own true love was waitin',
Yes, and if I could hear her heart a-softly poundin',
Only if she was lyin' by me,
Then I'd lie in my bed once again.

There's beauty in the silver, singin' river,
There's beauty in the sunrise in the sky,
But none of these and nothing else can touch the beauty
That I remember in my true love's eyes.
Yes, and only if my own true love was waitin',
Yes, and if I could hear her heart a-softly poundin',
Only if she was lyin' by me,
Then I'd lie in my bed once again.

[Pryderi Agni]

Of course it is! And what beautiful poetry, too!


Together we cry…
Together we cry…

Jenny was a poor girl
Living in a rich world
Named her baby Hope when she was just fourteen
She was hoping for a better world
For this little girl
But the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree

Well she gets that call
Hope’s too far gone
Her baby’s on the way
But nothing left inside
Together we cry!

What about the junk head
Could have gone the whole way
Lighting up the stage trying to get a deal
Now he’s lighting up the wrong way
“Something for the pain!”
Man you wanna see this kid he was so f@#kin’ unreal
When he gets that call
He’s too far gone
To get it together to sing one song
They won’t hear tonight
The words of a lullaby

Together we cry…
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Together we cry…
Whoah oh whoah oh whoah
Together we cry…
Oh we cry we cry we cry
Together we cry…
Oh we cry we cry
Whoah oh whoah oh whoah

Oh…Mary’s ambitious
She wanna to be a politician
She been dreaming about it since she was a girl
She thought that she’d be the one to change the world
Always trying to pave the way for women in a…man’s world
But life happened, house, kids, 2 cars, husband hits the jar, cheques that don’t go very far now
Now she in it can’t change it, she keeps her mind on her wages
The only rattling cages!

Together we cry
Together we cry

There comes a time when every bird has to fly
At some point every rose has to die
It’s hard to let your children go
Leave home
Where they go?
Who knows!
Getting drunk
Getting stoned
All alone
Teach a man to fish
You’ll feed him never lie
You show your kids the truth
Hope they never lie
Instead of reading in a letter that they’ve gone to something better
“Bet your sorry now! I won’t be coming home tonight”

I’m sick of looking for those heroes in the sky
To teach us how to fly
Together we cry!

Together we cry
Together we cry

Or:


Do you know where your heart is
Do you think you can find it
Did you trade it for something, somewhere
Better just to have it
Do you know where your love is
Do you think that you lost it
You felt it so strong but nothings
Turned out how you want it
Well bless my soul
You`re a lonely soul
Cause you wont let go
Of anything you hold
Well all I need is the air I breathe
And a place to rest my head
Do you know what your fate is
And are you trying to shake it
You`re doing your best and
You`re best look
You`re praying that you`ll make it
Well bless my soul
You`re a lonely soul
Cause you wont let go
Of anything you hold


Well all I need is the air I breathe
And a place to rest my head
Said all I need is the air I breathe
And a place to rest my head
Do you think you can find it
Do you think you can find it
Do you think you can find it
Better than you have it
Do you think you can find it
Do you think you can find it
Do you think you can find it
Better than you have it
Better than you have it
Said all I need is the air I breathe
And a place to rest my head
Said all I need is the air I breathe
And a place to rest my head
Do you know where the end is
Do you think you can see it
Until you get there
Go on
Go ahead and scream it
Just say...

[stlukesguild]

Bump!

[rabid reader]

I don't mean to bump an old topic its just I was reminded of a beautiful song and its lyrics while reading a topic in the serious forum.

Tragically Hip- Emperor Penguin

i like the tone of your trumpet
come let's spill some paint
let's raise a glass of milk to the end of another day
and to the kiss that's still intangible

the kids are alright just unmanageable
they won't do a damn thing that you say
your voice is all detached on a radio-wave
breeze we have another caller with a bachelor degree
talkin' alien invasion as the only chance for unity

well sorry to interrupt you caller but that's a physical impossibility
you'd be tossed up or wash up the narrator relates
in a spartan antarctican walk for many days
meet with emperor penguin devotion to the egg
and their women are swimming from half an ocean away

don't sound so detached this is you and me
just give me your opinion before you turn to leave
but your crust is just incredible
the radio was edible
when you said don't wipe your asses with your sleeves
your're a physical impossibility

[Gobsworth]

hi

i would agree, for me it's the meaning in the words as much as anything.

is poetry meant to touch you? yes it does for some. does painting touch some? i think so. does musick touch tohers? it does me. ever heard a musician or singer called an artist? i have... it's what it is, art in one of its many forms... for me

[Gobsworth]

again i wake up to memories of you
on my own and feeling confused
becoz you took times of luv that surpassed all words
and swapped them all for lies and hurt

so i had to leave to go my own way
but i will remember you untill my dying day
because i still have feeling apart from regret
and memories of times i will never forget

i remember your smile the walks we would take
the touch of your hand and the love that we made
so these are the things i am taking with me
forever commited to memory

[Lykren]

One of my favorite musicians, Elliott smith, also wrote great lyrics.

High on amphetamines
The moon is a lightbulb breaking
It'll go around with anyone
But it won't come down for anyone
And I won't come down for anyone

and
Now I'm a policeman directing traffic
Keeping everything moving, everything static
I'm the hitchhiker you'll recognize passing
On your way to some everlasting

[Clopin]

As poor as a lot of song lyrics will read to someone who doesn't know the melody, quite a few very good poems would not necessarily make good songs either.

I like songwriters like Leonard Cohen (also a poet) and I've been particularly interested in harpist/songwriter Joanna Newsom. I'm not sure her lyrics would make particularly good poetry but they're very beautiful sung throughout her thirteen or so minute songs and make a lot of references to fables and folk tales.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UUe3Q54qFg

And some lyrics from her song Sawdust and Diamonds.


From the top of the flight
Of the wide, white stairs
Through the rest of my life
Do you wait for me there?

There's a bell in my ears
There's a wide white roar
Drop a bell down the stairs
Hear it fall forevermore

Drop a bell off of the dock
Blot it out in the sea
Drowning mute as a rock;
Sounding mutiny

There's a light in the wings
Hits this system of strings
From the side while they swing;
See the wires, the wires, the wires

And the articulation
In our elbows and knees
Makes us buckle as we couple in endless increase
As the audience admires

And the little white dove
Made with love, made with love:
Made with glue, and a glove, and some pliers

Swings a low sickle arc
From its perch in the dark
Settle down
Settle down my desire

And the moment I slept I was swept up in a terrible tremor
Though no longer bereft, how I shook and I couldn't remember

Then the furthermost shake drove a murdering stake in
And cleft me right down through my center
And I shouldn't say so, but I know that it was then, or never

Push me back into a tree
Bind my buttons with salt
Fill my long ears with bees
Praying: please, please, please,
Love, you ought not!
No you ought not!

Then the system of strings tugs on the tip of my wings
(cut from cardboard and old magazines)
Makes me warble and rise like a sparrow
And in the place where I stood, there is a circle of wood
A cord or two, which you chop and you stack in your barrow

It is terribly good to carry water and chop wood
Streaked with soot, heavy booted and wild-eyed;
As I crash through the rafters
And the ropes and pulleys trail after
And the holiest belfry burns sky-high

Then the slow lip of fire moves across the prairie with precision
While, somewhere, with your pliers and glue you make your first incision
And in a moment of almost-unbearable vision
Doubled over with the hunger of lions
'Hold me close', cooed the dove
Who was stuffed, now, with sawdust and diamonds

I wanted to say: why the long face?
Sparrow, perch and play songs of long face
Burro, buck and bray songs of long face!
Sing: I will swallow your sadness and eat your cold clay
Just to lift your long face

And though it may be madness, I will take to the grave
Your precious longface
And though our bones they may break, and our souls separate
- why the long face?
And though our bodies recoil from the grip of the soil
- why the long face?

In the trough of the waves
Which are pawing like dogs
Pitch we, pale-faced and grave,
As I write in my log

Then I hear a noise from the hull
Seven days out to sea
And it is the damnable bell!

And it tolls - well, I believe, that it tolls - for me!
It tolls for me!

Though my wrists and my waist seemed so easy to break
Still, my dear, I would have walked you to the very edge of the water
And they will recognise all the lines of your face
In the face of the daughter of the daughter of my daughter

Darling, we will be fine, but what was yours and mine
Appears to be a sandcastle that the gibbering wave takes
But if it's all just the same, then will you say my name:
Say my name in the morning, so I know when the wave breaks?

I wasn't born of a whistle or milked from a thistle at twilight
No, I was all horns and thorns, sprung out fully formed, knock-kneed and upright
So: enough of this terror
We deserve to know light
And grow evermore lighter and lighter
You would have seen me through
But I could not undo that desire

Oh-oh, oh-oh-oh desire
Oh-oh, oh-oh-oh desire
Oh-oh, oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh desire

From the top of the flight
Of the wide, white stairs
Through the rest of my life
Do you wait for me there

[Clopin]

This is also a very nice song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOxAneYR4bw


Lyrics to Monkey And Bear :
Down in the green hay
Where monkey and bear usually lay
They woke from a stable-boy's cry

He said; someone come quick!
The horses got loose, got grass-sick!
They'll founder! Fain, they'll die

What is now known by the sorrel and the roan?
By the chestnut, and the bay, and the gelding grey?

It is: stay by the gate you are given
And remain in your place, for your season
And had the overfed dead but listened
To that high-fence, horse-sense, wisdom...

Did you hear that, Bear? Said monkey
We'll get out of here, fair and square
They've left the gate open wide!

So
My bride
Here is my hand, where is your paw?
Try and understand my plan, Ursala
My heart is a furnace
Full of love that's just, and earnest
Now; you know that we must unlearn this
Allegiance to a life of service
And no longer answer to that heartless
Hay-monger, nor be his accomplice
(that charlatan, with artless hustling!)
But; Ursala, we've got to eat something
And earn our keep, while still within
The borders of the land that man has girded
(all double-bolted and tight-fisted!)
Until we reach the open country
A-steeped in milk and honey

Will you keep your fancy clothes on, for me?
Can you bear a little longer to wear that leash?
My love, I swear by the air I breathe:
Sooner or later, you'll bare your teeth

But for now, just dance, darling
C'mon, will you dance, my darling?
Darling, there's a place for us
Can we go, before I turn to dust?
Oh my darling, there's a place for us
Oh darling
C'mon will you dance, my darling?
Oh, the hills are groaning with excess
Like a table ceaselessly being set
Oh my darling, we will get there yet

They trooped past the guards,
Past the coops, and the fields, and the farmyards
All night, till finally:

The space they gained grew
Much farther than the stone that bear threw
To mark where they'd stop for tea

But walk a little faster
And don't look backwards
Your feast is to the East, which lies a little past the pasture

When the blackbirds hear tea whistling, they rise and clap
And their applause caws the kettle black
And we can't have none of that!

Move along, Bear; there, there; that's that
Though cast in plaster
Our Ursala's heart beat faster
Than monkey's ever will

But still;
They have got to pay the bills
Hadn't they?
That is what the monkey'd say

So, with the courage of a clown, or a cur
Or a kite, jerking tight at its tether
In her dun-brown gown of fur
And her jerkin' of swansdown and leather

Bear would sway on her hind legs;
The organ would grind dregs of song, for the pleasure
Of the children, who'd shriek
Throwing coins at her feet
Then recoiling in terror

Sing, dance, darling
C'mon, will you dance, my darling?
Oh darling, there's a place for us
Can we go, before I turn to dust?
Oh my darling, there's a place for us

Oh darling
C'mon, will you dance, my darling?
You keep your eyes fixed on the highest hill
Where you'll ever-after eat your fill
Oh my darling, dear, mine
If you dance
Dance, darling, and I love you still

Deep in the night
Shone a weak and miserly light
Where the monkey shouldered his lamp

Someone had told him
The bear had been wandering
A fair piece away from where they were camped

Someone had told him
The bear'd been sneaking away
To the seaside caverns, to bathe

And the thought troubled the monkey
For he was afraid of spelunking down in those caves

Also afraid what the village people would say
If they saw the bear in that state;

Lolling and splashing obscenely
Well, it seemed irrational, really; washing that face

Washing that matted and flea-bit pelt
In some sea-spit-shine, old kelp dripping with brine

But monkey just laughed, and he muttered;
When she comes back, Ursala will be bursting with pride

Till I jump up!
Saying: you've been rolling in muck!
Saying: you smell of garbage and grime!

But far out
Far out
By now
By now
Far out, by now, Bear ploughed
'Cause she would not drown:

First the outside-legs of the bear
Up and fell down, in the water, like knobby garters

Then the outside-arms of the bear
Fell off, as easy as if sloughed from boiled tomatoes

Low'red in a genteel curtsy
Bear shed the mantle of her diluvian shoulders;

And, with a sigh,
She allowed the burden of belly to drop like an apron full of boulders

If you could hold up her threadbare
Coat to the light where it's worn translucent in places

You'd see spots where
Almost every night of the year Bear had been mending suspending that baseness

Now her coat drags through the water
Bagging, with a life's-worth of hunger, limitless minnows;

In the magnetic embrace
Balletic and glacial of Bear's insatiable shadow;

Left there!
Left there!
When Bear left Bear
Left there!
Left there!
When Bear stepped clear of Bear

Sooner or later you'll bury your teeth

[Clopin]

Bump :3

[Tor-Hershman]

The lyrics of Shane McGowan and Bob Dylan stand up as poetry in their own right.

How about lyrics to a parody of Dylan's works, e.g.,
"Pretend you're a sweet Christian
Pretend you're a hurt Jew
Pretend you're a Buddhist or Satanist, too,
at end you ain't nothin' but DNA goo
Pre-order get Zeromas savings
The more you sell the more you get
it's jungle or zoo
for the times they aint' a changing"
?

[Volya]

I'd say a lot of music/lyrics is very poetical (except for pop...). Tom Waits' music is very lyrics-based and is definitely very poetical. So is a lot of folk like Johnny Flynn's.

'Your sentences rose high at night
And circled round my head
The circle's since been broken
Like the priest before me is breaking bread

I'm being asked to drink the blood of Christ
And soon I'll eat his flesh
I'm alone again before the altar
Shedding all my old regrets'

[SkyCetacean]

Y'know I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that nobody's mentioned rap and hip-hop music, because unlike many other forms of music hip-hop is almost purely poetry. You can argue about quality, sure, but lots of hip-hop is absolutely rife with literary technique, such that I'd require it poetic, even if the subject matter isn't necessarily.

As an example, let's examine Inspectah Deck's the Wu-Tang Clan's Triumph. (Exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from a literary forum...)


I bomb atomically,
Here Inspectah Deck is metaphorically comparing his explosive skills to an atomic bomb.


Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses
Can't define how I be droppin' these mockeries,
Deck alludes to the historical figure of Socrates, a man well-known for being highly philosophical and intelligent. He's saying that his lyricism is so good that even Socrates can't begin to comprehend how it exists.


Lyrically perform armed robbery,
Flee with the lottery,
Possibly they spotted me.
An example of both extended metaphor and homeric simile. He starts off by comparing his lyrics to engaging in armed robbery, he's basically saying he's a really tough fellow. He then continues with the metaphorical armed robbery, claiming that this quality of his makes him lots of money, or that he "flees with the lottery". The line "possibly they spotted me," is where the Homeric Simile kicks in, as he rounds off the rhyme and the metaphor.


Battle-scarred shogun, explosion when my pen hits
Tremendous, ultra-violet shine blind forensics.
He compares the event of his writing lyrics with an explosion, that is to say that when he writes ideas explode onto the paper. He then continues with the explosion metaphor by claiming that the explosion caused by his lyricism is so powerful that a forensic team sent in to investigate the explosion would be blinded by the light left over.


I inspect you, through the future see millennium
Killer Bees sold fifty gold sixty platinum.
Characterization. The Wu-Tang Clan is full of different characters, and Inspectah Deck's is that of a seer or a mind-reader.


Shacklin' the masses with drastic rap. tactics
Deck metaphorically shackles the general populace with his incredible rapping.


Graphic displays melt the steel like blacksmiths.
His graphic displays or descriptions of life in the slums are so hot that they melt steel like a blacksmith does. (Simile)


Black Wu-Jackets queen B's ease the guns in, Rumble with patrolmen, tear gas laced the function.
The Wu-Tang's clothing is so well-recognized and well-respected that people won't even search their jackets, thus they can hypothetically be used to smuggle in weaponry. He's not afraid to struggle with the law, though, even if this struggle is met with tear gas.


Heads by the score take flight incite a war.
Wu-Tang was heavily influenced by hong-kong action movies. Here Deck compares his crew to a group of assassins who will lyrically incite chaos in a town or village by taking scores of heads.


Chicks hit the floor, die hard fans demand more.
Pretty straightforward here.


Behold the bold soldier, control the globe slowly
Proceeds to blow swingin' swords like Shinobi.
He compares his lyrical skill to a Samurai, or a bold soldier. He's willing to cut to the heart of the matter when other people are afraid to, and thus he holds the world in sway.


Stomp grounds and pound footprints in solid rock,
Wu-Tang has so many enthusiastic fans that when they pound along to the beat, it literally pounds footprints into the pavement.


Wu got it locked, performing live on your hottest block.
Again, pretty straightforward.

What I'm saying is, while it can be argued that the subject matter in a lot of hip-hop is lowest-common-denominator the poetic technique is there, and thus there's nothing preventing hip-hop from being good poetry. Good examples include Emcee Lynx, Illogic, Lupe Fiasco, Mos Def, Nas (Sometimes), Saul Williams, Shing02... All very intelligent and poetic.

Other lyrics I like, not of the hip-hop kind are songs written by Chris Mosdell and Tim Jensen. Particularly Gravity and The Garden Of Everything are very nice.

[Phocion]

I completely agree. Hip-hop (or at least what i regard to be hip-hop) is the closest thing there is to poetry in music. There are some whose lyrical complexity and rhythm structure is very impressive.

This is a good example (especially in regard to the content):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X0N8HbFOU

[SkyCetacean]

I completely agree. Hip-hop (or at least what i regard to be hip-hop) is the closest thing there is to poetry in music. There are some whose lyrical complexity and rhythm structure is very impressive.

This is a good example (especially in regard to the content):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X0N8HbFOU
Ah yes, Cise Starr is quite talented as well. I might even say Substantial as well, on the topic of Nujabes collaborators, but I dunno...


"Pretend you're a sweet Christian
Pretend you're a hurt Jew
Pretend you're a Buddhist or Satanist, too,
at end you ain't nothin' but DNA goo
Pre-order get Zeromas savings
The more you sell the more you get
it's jungle or zoo
for the times they aint' a changing
...

Seriously!?

[Silas Thorne]

Some song lyrics can work OK without music, although most of the time they would be better with it. They are designed to be accompanied with music, or sung, after all:

Here's some Robbie Burns stuff:

http://andymstewart.com/burns.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUs-5dHFksw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOsksklIhus&feature=related

[sympathygrl]

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1175450#post1175450

[SkyCetacean]

I found this cool video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSbtkLA3GrY) about the poetry of hip-hop and how it's analogous to Shakespeare in the modern day.

[Gerard Quain]

what is a song , but a poem with a melody

[ennison]

Songs and poetry were originally one. Macdiarmid once said that the most profound line in Scottish poetry was "Thou art naw Mary Morison". Coming from a man whose best poetry was when it was most lyrical but who descended into producing tomes full of modernist mumbo-jumbo that is a noteworthy comment. Not something the likes of I C Smith would get at all. Once when asked if the village bards wrote good poetry he answered in that sneery voice of his no but that perhaps Murdo Macfarlane had some good bits. Frankly it is the other way round. There is nothing memorable or uplifting about most modern verse pumped out by dull and boring academics.