In the beginning...

[PrinceMyshkin]

In the beginning
man created God
and made Him
mighty, wise, compassionate
sort of like their beloved uncle,
Ben, with his favourite Meerschaum
and the perpetual three-day
salt and pepper stubble on his chin.

But where was Aunt Alice
who’d always had a gentling effect
on him and would caution
“Ben, Ben, remember
your high blood-pressure!
Go easy on the kids.
Remember, they’re only human”?

Uncle Ben took a liking to his own character,
came to believe in it, and since nothing exists
unless it’s believed in and everything
that is believed in, ipso facto, exists,
Uncle Ben came to be real.

As for Aunt Alice, well,
there could only be one lead
in this particular film.




Jerry Newman © 07May08

[schadenfreude]

Very interesting! It was amusing to envision God as an uncle with a "perpetual three-day salt and pepper stubble on his chin", particularly since He is usually portrayed as either a benevolent Santa-like figure or a formindable bearded gentleman.
You do make a crucial point about gender and religion. I remember a religion class I had in high school, where our Catholic teacher (she was quite progressive) tried to convince us that God cannot be defined into a specific gender. At one point, she said something like: 'God is both male and female', which surely confused a lot of my classmates. We had to draw a series of pictures depicting how our perception of God has changed over the years, and we did get some very interesting pictures!
Anyway, wonderful poem Jerry!

[AuntShecky]

Interesting in a whimsical sort of way. The conventional wisdom is that God made man "in his own image." But did you know that even a poet as devout as Milton questioned that concept, especially in Book VIII of Paradise Lost.

[Sweets America]

That was a nice one, Jerry-Shou. It was funny how I had to reread the first lines because "man created God" souned strange to me since we're so used to hearing the reverse!
The idea behind the poem is interesting. However, I have a problem with this:


and since nothing exists
unless it’s believed in and everything
that is believed in, ipso facto, exists,

because I am not sure this works. For me anyway. Why wouldn't something exist unless it's believed in? Things that we don't believe in might exist by themselves? Or maybe not, maybe it's all through man's perceptions, just like in Buddhism and nothing exists really. I don't know?

[PrinceMyshkin]

That was a nice one, Jerry-Shou. It was funny how I had to reread the first lines because "man created God" souned strange to me since we're so used to hearing the reverse!
The idea behind the poem is interesting. However, I have a problem with this:



because I am not sure this works. For me anyway. Why wouldn't something exist unless it's believed in? Things that we don't believe in might exist by themselves? Or maybe not, maybe it's all through man's perceptions, just like in Buddhism and nothing exists really. I don't know?

Are you questioning whether it works as poetry, or philosophically? I hope it works as poetry, but philosophically? I subscribe to it at least and possibly no more than as a metaphysically interesting proposition. In any case I hope it fits within the notion of a persona who is speaking the poem. That is, either he is one of those who believes he created God, or he is a deluded creation of God, in either of which cases there is an anthropomorphic, mega-arrogant believe in the power of belief! To reconcile this with your reference to Buddhism, perhaps nothing exists except belief?

Oh! I know (or should I say I "believe") that that latter statement is going to appeal to you!

[blazeofglory]

The poem honestly flows on asserting how Man created God out of imagination and gripped him in his understanding and of course finally idealizing him so that he can follow him.

[blazeofglory]

The poem honestly flows on asserting how Man created God out of imagination and gripped him in his understanding and of course finally idealizing him so that he can follow him.

[firefangled]

That was a nice one, Jerry-Shou. It was funny how I had to reread the first lines because "man created God" souned strange to me since we're so used to hearing the reverse!
The idea behind the poem is interesting. However, I have a problem with this:


and since nothing exists
unless it’s believed in and everything
that is believed in, ipso facto, exists,

because I am not sure this works. For me anyway. Why wouldn't something exist unless it's believed in? Things that we don't believe in might exist by themselves? Or maybe not, maybe it's all through man's perceptions, just like in Buddhism and nothing exists really. I don't know?


Are you questioning whether it works as poetry, or philosophically? I hope it works as poetry, but philosophically? I subscribe to it at least and possibly no more than as a metaphysically interesting proposition. In any case I hope it fits within the notion of a persona who is speaking the poem. That is, either he is one of those who believes he created God, or he is a deluded creation of God, in either of which cases there is an anthropomorphic, mega-arrogant believe in the power of belief! To reconcile this with your reference to Buddhism, perhaps nothing exists except belief?

Oh! I know (or should I say I "believe") that that latter statement is going to appeal to you!

An interesting poem always provokes like comments and this is certainly one. The humor is a great counterpoint to a questioning as old as humankind.

The last stanza is my favorite, because it tells the whole tale in a nutshell as to why this topic is so gender twisted.

For me your dialogue with Sweets is as interesting as the poem, especially your last statement. I would add that belief underlies what we consider reality, that our beliefs (as a species), varied as they are in the world, are similar enough so as to create what we know as the world. Were our cosmology significantly shifted by our beliefs, the world, its "creation" and all peripherals and subsidiaries might be unrecognizeable to us as we are now.

Enough about the philosophy behind this; it is poetry (it was though a philosophical poem, afterall), the treatment of all this "seriousness" was ingenious and made personal to us readers through the use of character (Ben does not need to be your real uncle or anyones to be personal). To wrap it up as a film was the kernel, or the soul of it revealed and accessible, while complex; and I think a nice ironic twist, since film involves so often the suspension of belief or truth (sic reality) or both.

[PrinceMyshkin]

An interesting poem always provokes like comments and this is certainly one. The humor is a great counterpoint to a questioning as old as humankind.

Many thanks for appreciating the intended humour here (which did not, I hope, diminish my serious (or should that be "rabid"?) ongoing quarrel with 'God'/and or Believers. As Einstein once wrote: “I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - this is a somewhat new kind of religion. “


The last stanza is my favorite, because it tells the whole tale in a nutshell as to why this topic is so gender twisted.

For me your dialogue with Sweets is as interesting as the poem,

And indeed, to me, your dialogue with me or with my poem is as interesting as the poem - and as or more fortuitous, because I was more than ever craving conversation this morning.


especially your last statement. I would add that belief underlies what we consider reality, that our beliefs (as a species), varied as they are in the world, are similar enough so as to create what we know as the world. Were our cosmology significantly shifted by our beliefs, the world, its "creation" and all peripherals and subsidiaries might be unrecognizeable to us as we are now.

Enough about the philosophy behind this; it is poetry (it was though a philosophical poem, afterall), the treatment of all this "seriousness" was ingenious and made personal to us readers through the use of character (Ben does not need to be your real uncle or anyones to be personal). To wrap it up as a film was the kernel, or the soul of it revealed and accessible, while complex; and I think a nice ironic twist, since film involves so often the suspension of belief or truth (sic reality) or both.

Apropos which, here's the current draft of a new poem of mine:



The Theory of Everything


"Insofar as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and insofar as they are certain they do not refer to reality." Albert Einstein

Insofar as this world is real,
it is not as we imagine it;
and insofar as it is as we imagine it,
it recedes from us
as does the never-changing speed of light.

We might approach light
at the speed of 185,999 mi/sec
but it would still be receding
at 186,000 mi/sec beyond that speed.

It makes no common sense.
It is, like the fact of us
here, conscious, breathing,
loving and hating,
incomprehensible.

[Pendragon]

Interesting poem. As one of the "believers" with whom you quarrel, I can still appreciate a good poem! Personally, I don't exactly believe that this flesh is the image of God, but rather the spirit that dwells in the flesh. So any image of God related to flesh would be imagination, which your poem shows a good deal of honest imagination! Good show! ;) :thumbs_up

[firefangled]

The Theory of Everything

"Insofar as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and insofar as they are certain they do not refer to reality." Albert Einstein

Insofar as this world is real,
it is not as we imagine it;
and insofar as it is as we imagine it,
it recedes from us
as does the never-changing speed of light.

We might approach light
at the speed of 185,999 mi/sec
but it would still be receding
at 186,000 mi/sec beyond that speed.

It makes no common sense.
It is, like the fact of us
here, conscious, breathing,
loving and hating,
incomprehensible.


Yes, And once again the last stanza my favorite. The day it ceases to be incomprehensible will be time for us to go. We are destined to be both the carrott and the stick, I think.

[dibyendra]

In the beginning
man created God
and made Him
mighty, wise, compassionate
sort of like their beloved uncle,
Ben, with his favourite Meerschaum
and the perpetual three-day
salt and pepper stubble on his chin.

But where was Aunt Alice
who’d always had a gentling effect
on him and would caution
“Ben, Ben, remember
your high blood-pressure!
Go easy on the kids.
Remember, they’re only human”?

Uncle Ben took a liking to his own character,
came to believe in it, and since nothing exists
unless it’s believed in and everything
that is believed in, ipso facto, exists,
Uncle Ben came to be real.

As for Aunt Alice, well,
there could only be one lead
in this particular film.




Jerry Newman © 07May08


I really enjoyed reading this poem, Jerry. First line, "In the beginning
man created God", is quite different and interesting. The touch of human characteristic to this poem added extra beauty to this poem:). The name, "Ben" and "Alice", given to the God is quite lovely and the ending is just great!



“Ben, Ben, remember
your high blood-pressure!
Go easy on the kids.
Remember, they’re only human”?



As for Aunt Alice, well,
there could only be one lead
in this particular film.

:) That's great! :thumbs_up

[ampoule]

I love these poems, Prince. Even more, I love the man who ponders these questions. In fact, I think I would like to see what you look like, pondering, as long as you are dressed. ;) ;) :D

Could it be this?

http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/services/papers/bl/blri078/content/man.gif

Or this?

http://hoovaloo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/the-comic-book-guy-pondering.gif


;) :D ;) :D ;) :D ;) :D

[dibyendra]

Amp, your pictures gave me a good laugh :D :D :D. Thanks!

[PrinceMyshkin]

I love these poems, Prince. Even more, I love the man who ponders these questions. In fact, I think I would like to see what you look like, pondering, as long as you are dressed. ;) ;) :D

Could it be this?

http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/services/papers/bl/blri078/content/man.gif

Or this?

http://hoovaloo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/the-comic-book-guy-pondering.gif


;) :D ;) :D ;) :D ;) :D

I pondered, naked as a clod
That roams at night in library aisles
When all at once I saw an Ipod
And hoped to find it filled with smiles
From strangers with uncovered knees
But in my naked state, I feared to freeze.

So home I went and donned some clothes
And tried to think some other thought
Of columbines and the lovely rose.
But fully clothed, my thoughts were naught!

[ampoule]

I pondered, naked as a clod
That roams at night in library aisles
When all at once I saw an Ipod
And hoped to find it filled with smiles
From strangers with uncovered knees
But in my naked state, I feared to freeze.

So home I went and donned some clothes
And tried to think some other thought
Of columbines and the lovely rose.
But fully clothed, my thoughts were naught!


That is too TOO wonderful!