The Great Gatsby

[mzmarymack]

Jay Gatsby is supposed to represent the 1920s itself. In what ways is he the embodiment of the "Roarin' Twenties" or the"Gilded Age"? How is he different?
What does the cover of the book represent?
(The mysterious, gypsy-like face with those strange eyes.) People say that one's eyes are the window to one's soul. If the face represents Daisy, who in turn represents the 1920s, then what is this saying about the 1920s?

Any other thoughts?

[bounty]

hi mary, its been years since ive read gatsby...but i hope someone answers your post!

[shamus88]

Fitzgerald contstructs Gatsby as an embodiment of America and the American Dream that the country is known so well for. The American Dream is the idea of independence, prosperity and self-reliance, fused with the opportunity to attain wealth and position within society, all through the means of hard work and labour. Historically, the American Dream represents believing in the goodness of nature. On the surface, this dream seems to offer people the prospect of achieving success, despite religion, race or history. However, Fitzgerald uses Gatsby (and his lifestyle) as a vechile to argue that the American Dream is actually an ideological and empty concept that can be aimed for, but never reached; or at least that the American Dream is full of corruption.

Some points which you may want to look at:

1. Gatsby's lavish car - “It was a rich cream colour, bright with nickel…triumphant with hat boxes and super boxes and tool boxes”. It is clear that Gatsby values his car, as it is a symbol of everything that he believes in- money, wealth and the subsequent acceptance that he believe that he gets from it. Interestingly, the words “rich”, “bright” and “triumphant” also describe Gatsby himself, merging the two together to portray him as a symbol of materialism. The word “triumphant” is particularly good at describing Gatsby, as it suggests a smug, self-satisfied attitude, almost as if he has ‘won’ in life. The fact that Daisy is riding in his car means that, he thinks, he is one step closer to her falling in love with him again, and him stealing her from Tom. However, it is almost as if Gatsby’s car is too nice, so when Daisy drives it, something is bound to go wrong. As expected, it does, and she accidentally hits Myrtle Wilson, leading to her death as nobody stops to help her. It can be argued that this illustrates how materialism, wealth and greed are all bad, because they lead to horrific consequences and ruined lives. In this case, the car is a metaphor for Gatsby’s view of the American Dream, and Fitzgerald uses this to show how this view is immoral and wrong.

2. The billboard of the eyes of T. J. Eckleburg near the petrol station. This suggests that the characters are always being watched, or that they are constantly on show; ergo they have to act in a conformist way to achieve any of their aims and values.

3. The green light in the distance- Gatsby “longs to reach it” and this again shows the corruption of the American Dream. Green is the colour of money, envy and infection, and if we see this as a metaphor for what Gatsby hopes to achieve as his ‘dream’, then we see how Fitzgerald demonstrates that an American Dream based on Gatsby’s principles of wealth and social acceptance is wrong. Interestingly, once Gatsby is dead, Nick looks out from the shore and we learn that there are now “hardly any lights”. This could symbolise that with the death of Gatsby, the American Dream of wealth and greed has also died. A different interpretation may be that with no lights, there is no hope. This would mean that Gatsby’s life could be seen as important and that it meant something in the larger scheme of things. Perhaps Gatsby has a good quality after all- his determination and hope. It could be that Fitzgerald is showing that there can be hope even in the bleakest of situations, and that we should always look for this. This ties in with the idea that the American Dream is an ideological concept that can never be reached, yet provides hope for many people.

4. Gatsby is described as a “son of God," yet this is only to illustrate the fact that he is merely human, therefore removing any God-like quality from him. Infact, many critics argue that Gatsby’s death is merely the completion of the death of his soul. This is because he fails to understand that the adolescent dream of wealth that he created when he was seventeen needed to change when he grew into a man. However, his dream did not change and this means that he cannot find true happiness, so his soul is lost. Therefore, once his body is gone, there is nothing left of Gatsby at all. Gatsby defies God and all that is right in order to gain his wealth, and this is arguably another way that he looses his soul. To achieve the richness that he believes he needs to win Daisy, he turns to bootlegging and criminality, but this fails to work. Therefore, all of his crime was in vain as it did not gain him what he hoped that it would. Consequently, Gatsby can be seen as the epitome of corruption within the American Dream as he was using dishonest and fraudulent means to achieve his dream.

5. The final passage in The Great Gatsby is heavy with river imagery, and Nick compares human life to “boats against the current”. This is important because rivers only flow in one direction, they have only one path that they follow. This means that Fitzgerald is demonstrating how human life must go against the current to achieve the true American Dream of happiness. He shows that it may be a struggle, but that it is necessary if we are to avoid an unhappy life like Gatsby’s


Sorry if I have rambled a bit, I was just writting everything down as I thought of it! Anyway, hope this helps!

[shamus88]

You did a great job. I hope he/she gets a "A." I don't do their homework for them. You are more charitable than I am.


True, they did catch me at my most generous! However, given the nature of the question I doubt it is much more than a high school student studying a novel that they cant be bothered to read; in which case, I havent really helped at all because they still wont understand any better and be able to write/talk about the novel.

[mzmarymack]

Wow, that's really insightful.
Actually, I had already finished the novel before starting the thread. I just wanted to discuss the the symbols and layers of the book.

I never thought about the river thing. That's pretty cool.

[kelby_lake]

I know- it's only recently that I thought of the water separating gastby and his dream. is his death (shot in his pool) supposed to be connected to this?

[decimsimia]

The river idea struck me as well. In the novel Gatsby is described as the "son of God" or Jesus. In Nick's first glance at Gatsby, he sees Gatsby reaching out. Nick states that Gatsby "stretched out his arms toward the dark water in a curious way" (25). This brings out the idea of that the dark water is all the sinners Gatsby is looking at. He is reaching out to these sinners in order that he might save them. This shows the importance of the river as a symbol as well as strengthener for the idea of Gatsby as the "son of God". This brings up the question in what other ways is Gatsby the "son of God"?

[mzmarymack]

In Nick's first glance at Gatsby, he sees Gatsby reaching out. Nick states that Gatsby "stretched out his arms toward the dark water in a curious way" (25). This brings up the question in what other ways is Gatsby the "son of God"?

Well I don't really see Gatsby as a Christ figure, if that's what you're asking, decimsimia.
Although Gatsby could very well be a Christ figure, if God is actually James Gatz, then Gatsby is his son or successor. And Gatsby's sole purpose in life is to fulfill his creator's, Gatz's, desire--obtaining Daisy. When Gatsby "stretched out his arms toward the dark water in a curious way," he is physically yearning for something across the river. We know that it is toward Daisy that his arms are pointing. We also know that there's a green light there, if I'm not mistaken.

Is that right? It's been a while since I picked up this text.

[nickname0811]

hey guys,
mzmarymack i agreed with you. I dont think Gatsby set as a Christ figure
Even though, the nick described Gatsby as the absoulte successor, Gatsby showed some of mistakes that can be made by human. Gatsby's purpose to obtain Daisy could not be accomplished. The fact that Gatsby was killed and a few people went to his funeral criticized the human who only desired material ,not real value things such as love

[Frankie Anne]

I have read this book a few times and have a few thoughts of my own I’d like to share.

I’ve always thought that Jay Gatsby’s story represented the decline or decay of the American dream, not the American dream itself. I think Fitzgerald was saying the pursuit of the American dream had become the pursuit of money just for money’s sake and not for any noble reason. Gatsby’s money was obtained by immoral and criminal ways in order to obtain something (Daisy) that was actually unattainable. I’ve always wondered whether Daisy would have chosen Gatsby anyway, as his money was “new” money and Tom’s money was “old” money - also shown by the West Egg and East Egg symbolic locations. Daisy also lets Gatsby take the blame for Myrtle’s death and chooses to remain with Tom which also, it seems to me, shows that she would never have chosen Gatsby. Daisy also represents what is wrong with wealth for wealth’s sake (which is what she chose in choosing Tom) - she is shallow, fickle, disloyal and indifferent.

I always thought that the green light represented Daisy. Gatsby is reaching toward the light - his goal of obtaining Daisy. I think the water that separated them also represents just how far apart she is from him in character, not just geography. Although his money was obtained in a criminal manner, he is morally above her as he is capable of true feelings of love, devotion and loyalty. She is not.

The final lines of the book (which happen to be my signature) represent us as all rowing toward a goal in our life. Gatsby was rowing toward Daisy, but his inability to get over the past (that the affair they had was over) kept him from getting anywhere. She was not an achievable goal - nor was she a worthy one. She “eluded” him in the past and keeps eluding him, “but that’s no matter” - “one fine morning” he believes she will be his.

[nickname0811]

like Fankie Anne said, The Great Gatsby definitely criticized the American who became more focused on money and materialist value.
Each West Egg and East Egg symbolized the old and new money. And Daisy was the one of the people showed the decay of American dream. Daisy was fasinated by money that made her happy.

"They are such beautiful shirts, " she sobbed, her voice muffled in the thick folds.

[David R]

It's been a while since I read Gatsby. What I really like about it is its indeterminate quality. Like a lot of great works it doesn't yield much to analysis, I'm thinking of Shakespeare, Joyce,T.S. Eliot here. It has an ambience, an nebular quality, a feel of its own which makes it a unique and unforgettable read.

And what about the famous line about Daisy, that she "had a voice like the sound of money"?

[ktm5124]

The "son of God" quote is really interesting. I also disagree that he is a Christ figure -- if he is it would be too unsubstantiated to be meaningful. Also, Nick is a closet homosexual, or bisexual, so I doubt he would conceive of Gatsby in that way.

However, I think the phrase points to the insignificance of Gatsby's father (biological father) in the course of his upbringing. It's as if he sprung from God's loins (as if this alone could explain how such a remarkable person came from such a boring father). Perhaps this touches a tender note for Fitzgerald: in his semi-autobiographical first novel, This Side of Paradise, Amory's father is similarly unremarkable. It may be that Fitzgerald's own father was this way. (I believe he was middle-class, and his being laid-off in Scott's childhood probably left an impression.) In Gatsby, This Side of Paradise, and Scott Fitzgerald's own life, we see the thematic idea of the son disowning the father, repudiating the proverb "Like father, like son."

[kelby_lake]

I think Nick is a hero-worshipper, a bit like Charles in 'Brideshead Revisited'. He's not that remarkable himself but is in love with Gatsby (though not James Gatz).

I don't think Nick has some sort of raging lust for Gatsby- he's more one of those adoring wives...

[ktm5124]

I think he is the very opposite, actually; I think that, to him, there are no heroes. Nick certainly winds up with sympathy and affection for Gatsby, but for a while he doesn't know what to think about Gatsby.

Nick initially takes a liking to Gatsby, in that he starts an easy conversation with him at one of his parties. But, at first, he isn't able to realize it is Gatsby he is talking to; this says something about Gatsby -- he does not come as necessarily grand or important or dignified. Nick didn't suspect that the modest man he talked to could be the host of such a party and the owner of such a mansion, and thus we see that Nick doesn't initially perceive Gatsby as a hero.

While Gatsby and Nick continue to get along well, Nick often sees Gatsby as a bit pathetic. The whole "old sport" thing is pathetic, especially that time when Nick narrates that he muttered the expression weakly. (I think this was when Gatsby met Daisy at Nick's house or when he is at a hotel with Daisy, Tom, Nick, and Jordan). It is also a very artificial affectation, and Nick must see through this, since Nick eventually learns of the illusion that Gatsby lives up to. (For example, Nick learns of the lists that Gatsby made for himself in order to sculpt his own image.) And Gatsby is remarkably pathetic when he meets Daisy at Nick's house -- he re-enters the house to make it seem accidental (lol), almost knocks the clock over, and fails to strike a spark in conversation. Nick goes to lengths to make the two feel comfortable and treats Gatsby like a teenage boy.

But there are also moments of Glory for Gatsby, where Gatsby transforms himself from the perennially insecure teenage boy to the actual persona that he created. We see this transformation when Gatsby and Daisy meet at Nick's house and later go to Gatsby's house. On the other hand, we see this transformation go in the other direction when Tom talks Daisy out of Gatsby's plans.

Nick is certainly awed by these transformations in Gatsby, from grand to pathetic and vice versa, but he doesn't hero-worship Gatsby. He is uncertain of whether he truly respects Gatsby throughout their relationship; this is evident when he says "But Gatsby turned out all right in the end," as if he was at bay on this question up until the scene of Gatsby's death. I think the moment when Nick finally comes to respect and sympathize with Gatsby is when he says, right before Gatsby is shot, "They're a rotten bunch. You're better than the whole stinkin' lot of em." (I quote from memory.) Nick is able to finally decide on the way he feels about Gatsby here because by this point Gatsby has shown all his colors.

We see that the respect, sympathy, and admiration that Nick pays Gatsby is arrived at through a process. Nick winds up seeing Gatsby as the perennial young man or teenage boy who long ago invented an image and persona for himself, and spent the rest of his life trying to live up to it. As for Nick himself, he is an outsider. I think Fitzgerald makes Nick gay (or bisexual) because gay people were probably viewed as outsiders in the 1920s. Gatsby too is an outsider; he is New Wealth mixing in with Old Wealth. In this common sense of not belonging, the two can identify with each other and relate.

When Gatsby dies, Nick loses the only other outsider beside himself. Gatsby's death affects Nick so profoundly because in losing Gatsby Nick loses hope in himself.

"Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that's no matter -- tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. ... And one fine morning ---- So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."

These last lines of the story can reflect just as much on Nick as on Gatsby. Perhaps Nick is looking for some kind of social progress, or something or other, that runs against the current. When Nick loses Gatsby, he loses hope in something else. Many people have dismissed this thing he loses hope in as the American Dream. Personally, I am less interested in this, and more interested in some dream of Nick's (something personal and specific to Nick himself) that dies along with Gatsby.

Well I certainly wrote a lot here. I didn't plan this post so I doubt it's of admirable quality (and a few things, like the last paragraph, are quite tentative). Anyway, I'm interested in responses.

[kelby_lake]

The quote you paraphrased is:
"They're a rotten crowd," I shouted across the lawn. "You're worth the whole damn bunch put together." I’ve always been glad I said that. It was the only compliment I ever gave him, because I disapproved of him from beginning to end.

I think it's sort of hero-worship, because Nick doesn't have an exciting life himself. He works in finance or something, and so the idea of Gatsby is both seductive and repulsive. He's torn between hating him and loving him, and I think his compliment is really sweet.

[ktm5124]

He works in finance or something, and so the idea of Gatsby is both seductive and repulsive.

Ah, that's a great point!

I think perhaps we disagree on what we mean by hero-worship. I only meant to point out how mixed Nick feels about Gatsby, and how often Gatsby comes across as pathetic.

[kelby_lake]

Ah, that's a great point!

I think perhaps we disagree on what we mean by hero-worship. I only meant to point out how mixed Nick feels about Gatsby, and how often Gatsby comes across as pathetic.

Maybe he's just conflicted about his hero-worship.