Why to know God?

[blazeofglory]

Today I felt like meditating deeply on this universal question. All are obsessed with this question. Nobody has hitherto convincingly been able to say there is God. We have so many sacred texts that document the information about the existence of God. We were conditioned to believe in God from babyhood.

I was told by my all elders we must fear God. My mind was stuffed with the idea of heaven and hell and varieties of questions relating to rewards and punishments with regard to the nature of works at disposal.

Now I am mature, and have gone through various big treatises and voluminous books. In fact all the stuff, called my knowledge now I possess is also conditioning. I am not immune from it anytime.

Okay, whatever the source of our thinking processes, let us forget it for a while.

Why do we want to know God?

We want to know God just because we want see perfection in everything. It is human nature to move towards perfection, and the whole evolutionary path man takes on is the evidence of all this.

Man is not satisfied with the state he is in at the moment. He is so much attached to lie and life is very sweet and lovely and man does not want to depart. Man wants to live on even after life. And that is why he thinks of the possibility of the afterlife.

The God thing is also about the same thing. Man is not delimited to what he is now or he sees the universe, and finds himself in miniature, a very insubstantial entity compared with the hugeness and vastness of the cosmos and therefore, dissatisfied with his petty physical structure he imagined that there is another entity in him, his soul. The concept of the soul is rather different and it is not gauged in terms of size but by some unseen measure or dimension that is subtle and complex.

The invention of God is the invention of man himself, of his boundless potentials and possibilities, of his universality, of his pervasiveness, of his might and infinity, of his unity and unification with the entire universe.

The entire cosmos with billions of galaxies shrink into his personality. Or to put it differently, the whole cosmos is the manifestation of his own being.

Man is the center of universe. For instance if you live the whole universe orbits around you, and with your death you will be immersed in to this cosmic ocean.

Biologically man is a mere creature and at death everything ends. But man has been a great explorer and has been able to dominate and govern great natural forces. If it is not the inner strength or potentiality of man he will be doomed to be dead or finished off.

Man is more than a biological combination, and he is more than that.

Nobody, no scientists, Gurus, no philosophers, no spiritual masters can totally and convincingly say what man is.

The question as to what man is something that leads to our eternal search for God.

Maybe to know ourselves, the real beings within us, or to discover the source of our existence we want to know God.

[Marcus J]

HI, I'm a new member to this board. Just thought I'd jump in with this one.

I remember reading something interesting in regards to the existentialist point of view towards this question of why man would create something like God.

In the existentialist's view (Or at least what I see it to be), in the beginning, there was no point to anything. Existence is pointless, morals are fake, there's no reason why you should prefer one thing over another. They refer to this as an agony. And if you think about life or existence in this way, it is agonizing in a way. Some might call it freedom, but I think it is a trade off. And so, according to this, there is really no essence you could strive for, no greater good you could fight for, and no quality or virtue you could rely on.

I think that some time, early on, in the beginning of human existence, people must've realized this type of agony. The pointlessness of life. And so, they came up with an idea. They realized that if they created an illusion of essence, the illusion of some greater good, or some kind of after life, and taught this to new generations to come, they would be free of the existentialist agony (or at least the ones who bought into this illusion would).

And through this realization, I think people started to invent values, the idea of a God, the hope of an afterlife, to distract themselves from the truth of their existence, hoping their ancestors wouldn't know about the truth of their existence.

The interesting thing occuring in the last 2 centuries, is how people began to be more aware of the idea of existentialism, and how all our values and Gods might just be illusions after all.

Nietzche points this out in his famous statement:

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"


I've just begun look into philosophy on my own, so please feel free to correct me if my ideas seem elementary or just plain wrong.:D

[Proust71]

Marcus J-the Nietzsche quote, in all its language usage, does indicated God perhaps existed at one point but became subverted by the human mind.

As for the rest of this, why must God be conceived by man? All this illusionary perception of God really does not make since. The Greeks invented their own pantheon, constructing humanity into that. Surely, doubtlessly, that this is man's satisfaction within himself, to atone for their own wanton ways. But God overpowers that. Supposing to know God, very much like I do, is to desire a sublime idea of life, a most magical feel to it. Nevertheless this does not suggest that in mere ennui did I cogitate a being to placate the monotony of my life. That notion is inconceivable. If the archaic peoples engendered gods to either assuage the wicked satiety of their own actions or to possibly express divine authority, and the consequences thus resulted in carnal deities, how can God be man's own created tie to the universe when man does not even have the imagination to do so by himself?

[numerouno711]

God was surely invented by man and it was because he could not find answers to so many questions.Questions like how an embryo lives in a womb for nine months? What gives life,to a so called lifeless grain of pulse when soaked in water? How was this universe working so perfectly.All the processes in place and every thing following a perfectly synchronized sequence.
To summarize,life following death and death following life again and if we assume there is no life following death .That means there is a source of life but no place for death to retire and as a result ...Death would pile up like a heap of dead bodies ....having no place to go or decompose and the balance would be disturbed and this would be against nature because Nature follows this aspect of creating balance every where ,and is the biggest Teacher.All that we know today has been taught to us by nature only.

So God was a manifestation of this colossal power taking care of every thing but no where to be seen.Science has explained so many things but there are still probably more things which need an explanation and still so much to be discovered and all that which is unexplained and which still has to be discovered has been give the name God.

More so we need a support system and People in the older times needed too.Some one who fulfills this strong urge of belongingness which all the creature created by God have.

We don't have this urge to know God but we have this urge to know the unknown and any thing which is beyond our power to comprehend .

[Marcus J]

Proust71, its true that Nietzsche's quote can be interpreted to mean what you said. But think of it within his context (his philosophies, his ideas, etc). Considering the fact that he's an atheist, it sounds more like he's implying the nonexistence of God.

And as for the desire to know God, I'm not quite share what you mean by your last statement. How can a man not have the imagination to do invent gods or religions? Please elaborate.

Im sure most people desire or seek for that "sublime" life or magical feeling. I think that's what I mean when I say people created the illusion of God. They're seeking this greater essence, but they know that there's no sure way to prove it exists. So they create myths to try to assist the future in being more confident towards the ideal of this greater essence, knowing that a lot of people will definitely buy into these myths without ever even considering the possibility that there is no greater essence in life.

My point is that hypothetically, if the early archaic people (the ones who were uninfluenced by stories of myths and miracles, the ideas of religion. The ones who had no way to trace back their own history) felt quite sure that there was no god (or at least there was any vivid evidence of one), they could make up stories and myths imbeded with vivid tales of the supernatural, to back up the illusion of an existence of God. Then as many centuries develop, and these myths survive and continue on, people might believe that what's written or told in these myths are actual documentations of history. The myths of gods and religion are only assistance tools. They are not fail safe, as obviously not all people buy into religion.

And hypothetically, if there really was no God, then religions have definitely worked in alleviating the pointlessness of life for a lot of people.

numerouno711, I definitely agree that people have easily assigned the idea of a god, to unanswerable questions. There are questions that many think might never be answered, like the origins of the laws of physics, or the beginning of time and what was before that. Many scientists have been known to metaphorically assign the label of "god", to these uncertainties. But I think the more appropriate term is simply the "supernatural". The term "god" is just came about because people tried to creatively conceptualize what the supernatural might be.

Like I said, I'm still trying to work out my thoughts on this, so please continue to elaborate or criticize ideas (yours and mine).

[Dori]

I was told by my all elders we must fear God. My mind was stuffed with the idea of heaven and hell and varieties of questions relating to rewards and punishments with regard to the nature of works at disposal.

Just as your elders stuffed the idea that you must fear God into your head?

[Proust71]

To MarcusJ-My last statement referring to the creation of a deity through means of the human cognition means that man himself simply cannot engender a god that is wholesome and humble like the one I worship. Naturally we exist as subverted, supine children with the intention not in the least favourable to such an existence that constitutes my God. I cannot believe that God has an illusionary value to Him, that He exists as man's finest facade.

As for Nietzsche, after only reading the Antichrist, I notice that he criticizes the priests (sacerdotal class as he titles them) harshly for making men "weak" and not being the hyperboreans he so calls himself and the rest of his existential ilk.

[hellsapoppin]

Nobody has hitherto convincingly been able to say there is God ... We were conditioned to believe in God from babyhood.


Yesterday, a man who is well known for his social advocacy on behalf of the handicapped got on the bus I was riding on. His story is legend in these parts:

As a youth he was a promising athlete and it was thought he would be a pro because of his strength and great skill. Then, one day at the age of 17 when he was jogging in preparation for an athletic contest, he was struck by a car. The driver ran away and was never caught. The athlete was left to die by the driver and has spent the rest of his life on a wheelchair.

One day a religious fanatic asked him why he did not attend church.

The answer from the embittered athlete was, if there is a god and he is so good, why the hell am I in this stituation? {note: the language he used was not quite this polite}


As with most people who have suffered in life, they will gladly believe in a personal god the moment one is manifestly present in their lives. All this god or anyone who says he exists needs to do is to duplicate the miraculous healing actions that are promised in the Bible. The embittered athlete said he used to go to church. But nothing came of those promises. Therefore, he could not longer pray to or believe in any form of god.

The Bible, and just about every form of literature held to be sacred, guarantees that a god is or can easily be made manifestly evident through miraculous intervention. This has been discussed on other threads and cites from that book have been posted (unfortunately, these postings have been met with hostile responses from church apologists).


So why do people want to 'know' or experience a divine presence in their lives? Easy: no one in their right mind wants to suffer. And, as you say, we are all conditioned to believe that a divinity exists that will eradicate suffering or will reward those who are in pain. It is this conditioning that serves as opiate. But it does not serve as curative. That is why the embittered athlete refrains from attending church. and many others can say the same.


One final note: for anyone who feels compelled to make a hostile response, please refrain from doing so.

[Redzeppelin]

Nobody has hitherto convincingly been able to say there is God ... We were conditioned to believe in God from babyhood.


Yesterday, a man who is well known for his social advocacy on behalf of the handicapped got on the bus I was riding on. His story is legend in these parts:

As a youth he was a promising athlete and it was thought he would be a pro because of his strength and great skill. Then, one day at the age of 17 when he was jogging in preparation for an athletic contest, he was struck by a car. The driver ran away and was never caught. The athlete was left to die by the driver and has spent the rest of his life on a wheelchair.

One day a religious fanatic asked him why he did not attend church.

The answer from the embittered athlete was, if there is a god and he is so good, why the hell am I in this stituation? {note: the language he used was not quite this polite}


As with most people who have suffered in life, they will gladly believe in a personal god the moment one is manifestly present in their lives. All this god or anyone who says he exists needs to do is to duplicate the miraculous healing actions that are promised in the Bible. The embittered athlete said he used to go to church. But nothing came of those promises. Therefore, he could not longer pray to or believe in any form of god.

Still playing the same tune, everywhere I encounter you...

The idea that the existence of suffering disproves or discredits God is as valid as the child's statement that "my dad is mean" because dad won't buy the child whatever he wants, or relieve the child of whatever discomfort the child is experiencing at the moment. I do not mean to disparage the suffering of others - but to boil God down to a "pain reliever" of sorts and then to reject Him based on that shows a highly limited understanding of who God claims to be. Nowhere in scripture does it promise that God will rescue us from all danger, suffering, annoyances in this life. In fact, the NT makes it clear that suffering is part of our character development. The Psalms speak of "when" the believer goes throught the "deep river" or the "fire" - "when" NOT "if."

God will not simply bypass the laws of nature at work in this world simply because we want Him to; sometimes He chooses to heal miraculously; other times He chooses to let nature take its course. Why? Who knows? But I know this: if God is as smart as a supreme being should be who is capable of calling the universe into existence with His voice, then His judgment is much better than mine.




The Bible, and just about every form of literature held to be sacred, guarantees that a god is or can easily be made manifestly evident through miraculous intervention. This has been discussed on other threads and cites from that book have been posted (unfortunately, these postings have been met with hostile responses from church apologists).

Partially true; what you leave out is that it is up to God to decide at what level He will choose to "manifest" Himself, and whether or not that manifestation will be "miraculous" or if it will appear in a subtle way that could be attributed otherwise.

Ha ha - the "hostile" adjective is funny - go see your last post in the "Satan" thread where you become hostile towards me by calling me "infantile." The pot calleth the kettle black.



So why do people want to 'know' or experience a divine presence in their lives? Easy: no one in their right mind wants to suffer. And, as you say, we are all conditioned to believe that a divinity exists that will eradicate suffering or will reward those who are in pain. It is this conditioning that serves as opiate. But it does not serve as curative. That is why the embittered athlete refrains from attending church. and many others can say the same.

Wrong wrong wrong. There is little about Christian theology (or any other for that matter) that says that the life of a believer is suffering-free or easier. Most religions make it perfectly clear that the path of following God is challenging, narrow, and demanding of a higher standard of attitude and behavior. No one believes in religion because it makes his/her life "easier" or "less painful." You've got to be kidding. I doubt the athlete you mention is happier in his rejection of religion. He may feel justified or such, but don't tell me that doing so has given him a "happier" life. I doubt that. If he's like most, the rejection has brought bitterness. You'd think that throwing off a "sham" would bring freedom and happiness - but I'm not convinced that that is so.



One final note: for anyone who feels compelled to make a hostile response, please refrain from doing so.

Was I courteous enough, my friend? And do you follow your own requests?

[Marcus J]

To MarcusJ-My last statement referring to the creation of a deity through means of the human cognition means that man himself simply cannot engender a god that is wholesome and humble like the one I worship. Naturally we exist as subverted, supine children with the intention not in the least favourable to such an existence that constitutes my God. I cannot believe that God has an illusionary value to Him, that He exists as man's finest facade.



Hey Proust, I still find your explanation a bit vague. I still feel like the idea of man's lack of imagination, or lack of will to create the concept of God on his on is highly questionable. The history of mankind proves that their imagination has led them to ideas much more difficult and intricate that the idea of God. It's not the most difficult thing man has come up with by far. I'm not sure the idea of man as being "supine" is too accurate idea. It seems like that's something that makes us unique from other beings.

And plus, the concept of God or gods, is obviously not unique to just one group (like the judeo-christian god). Many cultures who have had no connection to one another, have come up with gods of their own. So, there are examples all over the world, of people developing this concept of a divine being in their lives.

And as for the will or desire to do such a thing as conceiving this concept in the first place, I think existentialism is one good way of explaining it. To put it briefly, its just the realization of ones own "free" presence in the universe (from the hypothetical context of an ancient person who has yet to witness or hear any prior history of supernatural occurances).

Red Zeppelin- I agree that it is true many religions believe that the religious life they choose isn't necessarily a completely easy path. They realize that there are restrictions placed upon them that will greatly juxtapose the society they live in. There is definitely a type of burden they must life with. Suffering is definitely something on God's agenda. Good faithful believers are sometimes the ones with the worst luck in life. God is actually quite random in how he choose to affect people's lives. There is no guarantee your prayers will be answered in any way, and he might very well give you the opposite of what you want. So true, you can't use suffering as a case against God (at least not based on what he's done).

However, I think you definitely have a right to question whether this makes him a omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent God. And its easy to say, well maybe God has the brain equivalent of a dolphin and man has the brain of an ant, and a ant will never understand a dolphin. But this leads into serious questions of why we should trust our rational minds at all. Most of us lead a large part of our minds based on rational though. If we are suppose to believe in God, than we are left with an odd scenario where we find ourselves having to use rational thoughts for some applications, but completely abandoning them for others (like theistic inquiry).

Also, based on the idea of relief, there is definitely a relief element associated with being theistic, even if that may not be your ultimate reason you choose to be theistic. I understand this on a personal level because I myself was a believer in God, but now I don't anymore. After initially rejecting the idea of God, I felt a sort of relief. But, after thinking through what this leaves me with, there is a sort of emptiness/horror/anguish that arises. Personally I still feel like having faith in a God leaves you with a more hopeful and pleasing mindset, but I find it hard to gather the rationality for me to believe that anymore.

I think it goes both ways.
There is relief and burden in both atheists and theists.