Heaven or hell?

[Mariami]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

[Cezar_TheScribe]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Everyone sins and everyone will die because of sin. No one on earth is better than anyone else. We are all sinners. The only difference would be those who accept Jesus as their Savior and follow scripture. They are sinners saved by grace.

The self proclaimed Christians are hypocrites.

2 Timothy 3:5 (KJV)
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV)
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 1:28 (KJV)
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


They also forget Romans chapter six.
Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Anyone walking around with the attitude God will just forgive me, is fooling themselves. We are to ask for forgiveness and not give into lusts of the flesh.

Romans 6:11-13 (KJV)
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

As God sees it there is only black and white, there's God's way and there is man's way. No, one can work their way to Heaven.
But, faith without works is dead.

[Chester]

Hi Mariami. I can imagine a kind of scattering of consiousness upon death. That which is of God (good) returns to God. That which is not of God is logically prevented from doing so (perfection cannot accept imperfection). Hell, then, is a state of complete separation from God for that which is unable to become one with the divine.

That's this Christian's perspective, but it comes with the caveat that I am not a literalist.

[Dori]

Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Everyone sins and everyone will die because of sin. No one on earth is better than anyone else. We are all sinners. The only difference would be those who accept Jesus as their Savior and follow scripture. They are sinners saved by grace.

The self proclaimed Christians are hypocrites.

2 Timothy 3:5 (KJV)
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV)
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 1:28 (KJV)
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


They also forget Romans chapter six.
Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Anyone walking around with the attitude God will just forgive me, is fooling themselves. We are to ask for forgiveness and not give into lusts of the flesh.

Romans 6:11-13 (KJV)
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

As God sees it there is only black and white, there's God's way and there is man's way. No, one can work their way to Heaven.
But, faith without works is dead.

Wow, excellent post for a new person. :thumbs_up Welcome to Litnet. :)

[El Viejo]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

The scripture quotes from Cezar_TheScribe make it sort of clear that sin is human nature, and everyone, 100% of us, are destined for hell, except those who accept Christ.

But the devil, if you will, is in the details: what does it mean to accept Christ? Volumes have been written on the subject, and Christianity is split into a couple of thousand factions on that matter. Many would disagree sharply with your suggestion that it's possible for a person to be neither mostly good or bad. You can't get a generic "Christian" perspective.

If you want to know where you're going to go, you'll have to wait until you get there.

[Mariami]

Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Everyone sins and everyone will die because of sin. No one on earth is better than anyone else. We are all sinners. The only difference would be those who accept Jesus as their Savior and follow scripture. They are sinners saved by grace.

The self proclaimed Christians are hypocrites.

2 Timothy 3:5 (KJV)
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV)
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 1:28 (KJV)
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


They also forget Romans chapter six.
Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Anyone walking around with the attitude God will just forgive me, is fooling themselves. We are to ask for forgiveness and not give into lusts of the flesh.

Romans 6:11-13 (KJV)
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

As God sees it there is only black and white, there's God's way and there is man's way. No, one can work their way to Heaven.
But, faith without works is dead.


The scripture quotes from Cezar_TheScribe make it sort of clear that sin is human nature, and everyone, 100% of us, are destined for hell, except those who accept Christ.

I'll give you an example then.

Being from third world country, I know there are small villiges of about 20 or so people that have niether wondered nor heard anything about gods existense.
Let's take a man who has worked all his life and has done nothing wrong, caring about those close to him and always helping those in need, yet, having never heard of god, he neither believes in him nor reads scripture.

Does he go to hell because he isn't believer?

[Chester]

Does he go to hell because he isn't believer?
"Yes" would probably be the only answer you're likely to get from a literalist, but I'm willing to wait and see.

[dzebra]

I know there are small villiges of about 20 or so people that have niether wondered nor heard anything about gods existense.

I bet they do wonder.


And what about Gandhi? He wasn't a Christian, but he did lots of good things. Does he go to hell?

Heaven is a place where people can be with God all the time. It makes sense to me that the only people who would go into heaven would be God's people.

Suppose I was throwing a party and I told a lot of people about my party. They could go and tell other people, who could then talk to me to get to know me. When I get to know them, I'll invite them to my party.
My party day gets here. Everyone who has heard about it comes over to party. I won't let in the people who I don't know, who didn't take time to come meet me. I won't let in the people who know me but hate me. I won't let in the people who know me, but pretend they don't know me when I'm not around. I'll let in the people who heard about me and met me and became my friends and try to make me smile.

[Mariami]

Heaven is a place where people can be with God all the time. It makes sense to me that the only people who would go into heaven would be God's people.


Okay, let's make everything clear here. According to bible, there are two places where person can go after dying, heaven and hell.

Heaven is brilliant place, while in hell, people suffer greatly.

God sees all of us as his children. After dying, we got placed either in heaven or in hell according to how we lived our life.

So, you say that, god would make his child suffer a great deal of pain, just because said child has never heard of him?



Suppose I was throwing a party and I told a lot of people about my party. They could go and tell other people, who could then talk to me to get to know me. When I get to know them, I'll invite them to my party.
My party day gets here. Everyone who has heard about it comes over to party. I won't let in the people who I don't know, who didn't take time to come meet me. I won't let in the people who know me but hate me. I won't let in the people who know me, but pretend they don't know me when I'm not around. I'll let in the people who heard about me and met me and became my friends and try to make me smile.

Completely different situation.

Those that you won't let in your party would just go back home. While if god doesn't let us to heaven, we get to go to hell, where we have to suffer.
Plus, you don't see us as your children.

Now imagine you have 10 kids, 5 of who did what you said, while the other 5 misbehaved. You admit yourself, that no one is perfect. You also say you love them.
Would you disown the five helpless children that have 'sinned'?

Any normal parent keeps his/her kids because he/she loves them. At least keeps them until they become of age, so they can fend for themselves.

No parent would let their kid suffer great pain permanently for misbehaving or for not having been able to hear your (parents) orders/advice and therefore not following it. Epecially second, especially when said parent claims that he loves us.
Don't you agree?

[Chester]

Mariami,

I don’t mean to interfere in this conversation any more than I have, but I have a tendency to come at these things from a philosophical standpoint, and maybe this might help:

Can you see how it would logically be impossible for a perfect being to accept imperfection without the perfection being compromised? It might not be that God has a choice as to who to allow into "the party." It might be that that part of a human consciousness that is tainted by that which is ungodly merely cannot connect with that which is godly. There isn’t an option, in other words. Perfection is not imperfection. Never the twain can meet.

The only remaining question, then, is how this is solved. Literal (fundamentalist) Christians believe one thing (and only one thing) while the rest of us believe something else.

[El Viejo]

Mariami,

You won't find your answer in this forum. Christians do not agree on what it means to be a Christian, they do not agree on how one gets into heaven or hell, they do not even agree on the nature of heaven or hell. Ask your questions of as many people of different Christian faiths as you can. You'll still have most, or all, of your questions, and perhaps some new ones besides. But in the long run, this won't be a bad thing.

[togre]

Though justice be thy plea, consider this: when in the course of justice would you and I see heaven? ---Shakespear


Mariami, as Cezar pointed out, Scripture makes very clear that no one deserves to go to heaven. You, me, everyone deserves to go to hell.

That's sad! That's terrible. But that is just as Chester also pointed out. Perfect God cannot, and should not, be the indulgent grandfather that just ignores sin and rewards the wicked.


But (here the amazing part) as just and perfect as God is, He is equally loving and merciful. He does not want people to go to hell. So how can he bring sinners to be with him in heaven without being unjust? He gave up his Son as a substitute to pay the price our sins deserved. He won for us what we could never earn or deserve. He won it for all people.

But if people reject him and reject his gift, how can he give it to them? Should he drag unbelievers into a heaven they reject to be with the God they reject?

[Chester]

...as Chester also pointed out
I just have to get it on the record, though I had hoped it was clear, that I do not see God in the anthropomorphic way in which God is being presented on this thread.

[togre]

Sorry Chester. I didn't mean to put words into your mouth.

I do think your way of defining the absolute incompatibility of perfection and imperfection/sin and righteousness(whether you hold this view or not) was quite succinct.

[Chester]

No worries. Just wanted to clarify.

[Redzeppelin]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

Heaven isn't for "good" people, hell isn't for "bad" people. One theologian put it this way: "Who will be in heaven? The best answer is people who would enjoy being there." That may seem obvious, but it's really not so. Let me clarify (or confuse) by paraphrasing CS Lewis's take on this issue: In the end, there will be two kinds of people - those who said to God "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says "Thy will be done." That means this:

Those in either place will have chosen that destiny - nobody condemned to hell will be there against their will - they will have chosen it - not once, but many many times throughout their lives as the Holy Spirit tried repeatedly to convict the individual of his/her need of God. Nobody goes to heaven or hell against their will. So, back to the first anecdote I gave: not everybody would enjoy heaven - because heaven is a place where you are not the center of the universe, and some people couldn't stomach that - the old "It's better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" idea.

Heaven is the reward for accepting Christ's gift of salvation through his sacrifice at Calvary; hell is the chosen place for those who continuously reject God's invitations to avoid that fate by accepting Christ's grace and forgiveness.

Non-believers tend to make God out to be this vindicitve referee who "sentences" victims to hell and "mindless robots" to heaven. Far from it - both destinations are chosen by both parties.

Finally - it is not the absence of "big sins" (though all are equal in God's eyes - sorry, but you may find some converted Nazi concentration camp guards among those in heaven...) that keeps one from hell (just as it's not "big sins" that get you there) - it is a relationship with (or a refusal of that relationship) with God/Christ.

[blazeofglory]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

Friend I subscribe to your ideas hundred percent> You are right. I choose to be an atheist but a humanist. Humanism or philanthropy appeals to me immensely.

[YALASH]

Peace!

Those 90% are clean, for one or another reason message of God did not reached to them. God is Merciful, He will consider that too.

If human is made on the image of God, then original-sin idea do not survive!. Adam and Eve were early version of us. They simple forgot some order of God, soon they repented and God liked repentance. God completely forgave them, according to Quran. It was over. No sin stuck to their genes. Modern man's errors are not due to poor Adams!.

According to Islamic point of view, human is made with noble faculties.(plz see a little baby, how innocent they are---- completely sinless.) These faculties are raw when human are born, then human has to work on it to take it to next stage, called moral-stage ( referred as nafs-e- lawwama in Quran) then more struggle will bring person to final stage called peace-with-God-Stage (nafs-e-mutmainna). Divine education helps human to make progress upward.

Kindly read more in online books

1=THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM
This essay was read at a conference of religions held at Lahore on December26-29,1896. It has since served as an introduction to Islam for seekers of religious knowledge and truth in different parts of the world. It has been translated in several languages.

CONTENTS:
*A Grand Piece of News for Seekers after Truth.
*THE PHYSICAL, MORAL AND SPIRITUAL STATES OF MAN
The soul is created…..gradual progress of man…..true morals…..why is the flesh of swine prohibited…..
Five remedies against unchastity…..proofs of the existence of God…..spiritual conditions…..means of establishing perfect spiritual relationship with God.>>>

*WHAT IS THE STATE OF MAN AFTER DEATH
Three Quranic insights concerning the hereafter…..three types of knowledge.

*THE OBJECT OF MAN’S LIFE AND THE MEANS OF ITS ATTAINMENT
Means of the attainment of man’s purpose.

*THE OPERATION OF THE PRACTICAL ORDINANCES OF THE LAW IN THIS LIFE AND THE NEXT
The philosophy of the oaths of the Holy Quran.

*SOURCES OF DIVINE KNOWLEDGE
Meaning of revelation…..two phases of the life of the Holy Prophet.

w.alislam.org/books/philosophy/ - Similar pages


2= REVELATION, RATIONALITY, KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH
(THE BOOK EXAMINES A VERY DIVERSE AND WIDE RANGE OF SUBJECTS WHICH INTRIGUE MODERN MIND.)

CONTENTS :
==========
Historical perspective, Individual versus society, Islamic school of thought, European and Greek philosophy, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, The question of suffering, Secular viewpoints examined, The concept of God among Aborigines of Australia, The nature of revelation, Divine revelation and rationality, Belief in the unseen, A manifest principle—an everlasting teaching, The Quran and cosmology and E.T. , Entropy and the Finite universe, Origin of life, Different theories and propositions, The essential role of clay/photosynthesis in evolution, Survival by accident or design, and other things..

w.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/index.html

Hope you will find them . thanks.

[cipherdecoy]

If human beings are to be subjected to eternal damnation merely for sinning in a life as short as this, and on the contrary, if they are to enjoy eternal happiness in Heaven, then don't you think God doesn't have a sense of fairness?

Anyway, I've always wondered about the same thing too.

[Pendragon]

One question for some of you, and forgive me if this sounds blunt: If you do not believe in God or you think that there is no afterlife, what are you worried about? There is no reason to question heaven nor hell if you don't believe they exist! For those of us who do, then there might be reason to question the whys and whyfores. I think the Bible is rather clear on the matter, and Cezar had an excellent post on that.

God Bless

[Wintermute]

One question for some of you, and forgive me if this sounds blunt: If you do not believe in God or you think that there is no afterlife, what are you worried about?

God Bless

Hi Dale,

I'm worried because intelligent, gentle people, like yourself, believe in God and an afterlife. If it was all folks with less education and intelligence it wouldn't bother me. But there are a significant minority of Christians who I consider to be much smarter than me. And I guess this is why I remain agnostic and can't find the courage to hop on the atheist train.

I'm fairly certain (not 100%) that the Christian god and heaven are myth. However I am completely baffled by the existence of the universe (or a creator), which simply shouldn't exist by my logic. Something amazing is going on, I just doubt that it cares if I eat meat on Fridays or what my sexual preferences are.

Peace,
Doug

[Wintermute]

Since all people living in this world have an ego, I suppose an atheist would be nervous about the extinction of self that would come with death.

Hello Antiquarian,

I agree. And I feel this is exactly why man created the ideas of a creator, salvation, and an afterlife. That, combined with sorrow and hope.

Imagine sitting around the fire 10,000 years ago and watching your mother or child expire. And realizing that the same fate was lurking in the bushes for you. What comfort it is to hope that you may join them again in some afterlife. This notion would certainly help you with your grief and in my mind is the likely genesis of religion.

Be happy,
Doug


I don't think God cares who eats meat on Friday or what a person's sexual preferences are. The giving up of meat isn't even necessary anymore. The Roman Catholic church allows its members to eat meat on Fridays. It was a commandment of God, but a tradition of the church.



Hi again Antiquarian,

I just used the meat on Friday thing as a variable--kinda like an X or a Y in an algebraic equation. You can replace it with any of the commandments (any version) and I still doubt. For example, I don't think the creator of the universe would give a farthing that I covet my neighbor's wife--the notion seems silly to me.


To the atheists: Where do you think life originated? What is the Prime Mover to you? And, what about the fact that man can neither create nor destroy life? I don't mean man can't "create" a child or other living being in a test tube. He can. But he needs "life," DNA in the form on sperm and egg to do so. Who or what then, can create life?

I don't know. And I don't think you or any other human knows. For example, where do you think God originated?

Cheers,
Doug

[Pendragon]

Hi again Antiquarian,

I don't know. And I don't think you or any other human knows. For example, where do you think God originated?

Cheers,
Doug
The meat thing isn't a commandment, it is a tradition of some people who obviously haven't read their Bible...

1Tim.4

[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
[4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
[5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

And if God is what we say He is, that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, that God doesn’t need an origin...

God Bless

Dale (Pendragon)

[Virgil]

Hi Mariami. I can imagine a kind of scattering of consiousness upon death. That which is of God (good) returns to God. That which is not of God is logically prevented from doing so (perfection cannot accept imperfection). Hell, then, is a state of complete separation from God for that which is unable to become one with the divine.

That's this Christian's perspective, but it comes with the caveat that I am not a literalist.

Actually Chester I had a similar thought myself.

[Wintermute]

The meat thing isn't a commandment, it is a tradition of some people who obviously haven't read their Bible...

I know that silly, hehe. I don't think I ever said it was a commandment. Like I told Antiquarian, I just used that as a variable marker. You could insert any religious belief--say how someone is buried, or married, or burned as a witch--I personally doubt, if it exists, a universal creator would care in the slightest what some goober on a little chunk of rock in the corner of an unremarkable galaxy amongst billions of galaxies does. Then again, I could be wrong.



And if God is what we say He is, that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, that God doesn’t need an origin...

Agreed. However the key word there is 'if'.



God Bless

Dale (Pendragon)

Thanks Dale, if it exists, I sure hope it blesses me.

Sincerely,
Doug

[Chester]

I personally doubt, if it exists, a universal creator would care in the slightest what some goober on a little chunk of rock in the corner of an unremarkable galaxy amongst billions of galaxies does.
Unless the universe was created, at least in some way, for the goobers. Since time is inseparable from space, and the universe has expanded since its beginning, it might only be that it's as big as it is, with galaxies numbering in the billions, because that's how much time it took for us to get here.

[Chester]

I don't know much about physics beyond prune juice, Chester, but I do know scientists say the universe has an end. I've always wondered what was beyond that end.

I was watching a movie the other day and naturally I can't remember the title, but someone in it said they didn't believe in God. The other person did. He said, "Do you love me?" She said, "Yes, of course." He said, "Prove it. Not with actions, but prove it to me in words. Can't be done." Of course that has nothing, or very little, to do with our conversation here, I just found it interesting.

I thought the universe was shrinking? But as I said, I don't know much about physics. If I turned out to be right, it would actually surprise me. LOL
Well, what's beyond the universe is nothing. Total nothingness is a tough concept to get one's mind around. I don't mean empty space. I mean a state without time and without space. Complete nothingness.

As far as I know, the universe has been expanding since the big bang.

That's a nice conversation from the movie. Some would use love itself as a proof of God.

[Chester]

Well it's actually more of a philosophical question than a scientific one. If it's accepted that the universe is "all that exists", all that is of time and space, then that which is not of the universe would be nothing. See? There's either something or nothing.

Strangely enough it was me who invoked the philosophical conundrum of perfection earlier in the thread. The Christian idea of course is that free will allows us to act in ways that are not of God. Until man, the universe was perfect. It was good. But once good comes into existence, with it comes evil, at least in concept. Just as dark exists as absence of light and cold exists as absence of heat. It was man, acting in a way not of God (symbolized naturally by the fall in Eden) that made evil manifest in time and space, bringing it from concept to reality. It is this that separates us from God, according to this view. One I kind of like. God remains perfect. The imperfection of the universe is man-made.

[Chester]

And I would describe myself as a panentheist as well. So, yes, if the question is does something exist outside of the universe that is not physical or in some way directly related to time and space, that's a different question than what I answered, and I see now where it came from and why you asked it.

"Hmmm. I'll have to think some more. I haven't been involved in a philosophical conversation in a long, long time."

Well, the big questions aren't going anywhere. That's the nice thing about philosophy. You can always come back to it and it's always just where you left it. ;)

[Pendragon]

:blush: :blush:

I had to look up your term, panetheist :blush: . As this is accociated with God as Logos , it isn't too hard for me to accept. More people should actually study about God, then they might find reason to accept that God exists!

[blazeofglory]

God can not be contained within a logical frame.

[EricP]

I don't believe in an afterlife, but if heaven and hell did exist and I had the choice, I would choose hell. Then I could meet most of my favorite authors, philosophers, musicians, etc. :thumbs_up

[eyemaker]

really?? !

[blazeofglory]

Well it's actually more of a philosophical question than a scientific one. If it's accepted that the universe is "all that exists", all that is of time and space, then that which is not of the universe would be nothing. See? There's either something or nothing.

Strangely enough it was me who invoked the philosophical conundrum of perfection earlier in the thread. The Christian idea of course is that free will allows us to act in ways that are not of God. Until man, the universe was perfect. It was good. But once good comes into existence, with it comes evil, at least in concept. Just as dark exists as absence of light and cold exists as absence of heat. It was man, acting in a way not of God (symbolized naturally by the fall in Eden) that made evil manifest in time and space, bringing it from concept to reality. It is this that separates us from God, according to this view. One I kind of like. God remains perfect. The imperfection of the universe is man-made.

I am always skeptical of these issues, god, heaven and of the fact that God created this universe. That God created this universe and he created man so that he would be prayed and that he loves to be prayed, worshiped is something I can comfort myself with at all.

God or something there is absolutely a subject that is not imaginable in point of fact and not arguable at all.

Praying and not praying does not make a difference at all. God is now within a periphery of attributes.

[Within Me]

That`s Huge !!
well, my very own poor opinion is, the life we are currently living is The Hell itself.Nothing is going right. Children,woman,old men,men HUMANS are dying. Hunger is taking over millions of humans. "The Hell" and "The Suffering" my grandma used to tell me about Is right infront of me, and the image in my head is completed.
And heaven? well ... Maybe .. and its my poor guess .. it might be The Gift.
I can`t really imagine a (( Heller )) hell than our Lives.
Am i off the issue ??
hehehe i`m sorry !!

[DapperDrake]

God can not be contained within a logical frame.

In other words God is an illogical concept, or perhaps a superlogical concept but that's the same thing.
Pfft, who needs logic anyway, its only of any use for boring things.

"Well, what's beyond the universe is nothing. Total nothingness is a tough concept to get one's mind around. I don't mean empty space. I mean a state without time and without space. Complete nothingness."

until you give it a name and some attributes, just because its not our universe (space, time, matter, energy) does not mean its nothing - we simply just don't know anything about it.

[Pendragon]

In other words God is an illogical concept, or perhaps a superlogical concept but that's the same thing.
Pfft, who needs logic anyway, its only of any use for boring things.

"Well, what's beyond the universe is nothing. Total nothingness is a tough concept to get one's mind around. I don't mean empty space. I mean a state without time and without space. Complete nothingness."

until you give it a name and some attributes, just because its not our universe (space, time, matter, energy) does not mean its nothing - we simply just don't know anything about it.And this seems reasonable, until someone calls it an "afterlife", "heaven", "hell", "The Promised Land", "Nivarna", or something like and then people point to that as base illogical and totally unreasonable. Hummm. Well, we can't have it both ways, either it is nothing or it is to be assumed that there is something, call it what you will. Free will. Choice. :):)

God Bless

Pen

[RichardHresko]

Heaven and Hell in Christian tradition have involved the person receiving in the afterlife the reality of what he or she has chosen (I'll comment on the ability to choose efficaciously a little further down).

In this view a person is not so much punished for sins externally (the fire and brimstone bit) but rather experiences the sin and the effects of sin on the soul without filters. A good illustration of this can be found in Dante's Inferno, and the corrupting power of sin on the soul is also poignantly shown in the description of slaveholders in Frederick Douglass' Narrative.

The reason that the result is eternal is based on the belief that at death the person no longer has the ability to make a new choice. Hence the emphasis on the need for a spirit of repentance before death. Dante's Purgatorio is a wonderfully readable presentation of this idea, especially in the first several cantos dealing with ante-Purgatory. While not Church doctrine, Dante was clearly aware of Church teaching (see, for example, his understanding of Thomism in Canto IV of the Purgatorio).

Heaven is the attainment of the experience of the activity of the Supreme Good (God) by those who have loved the Supreme Good. For Christians it is necessary to have known and believed the Gospel to be able to have this love.

Given these ideas it is true that those who have not heard the Gospel can not go to Heaven. This does not mean that such souls are doomed to torment. Far from it. A good non-Christian attains a state of happiness. However, this state falls short of Heaven as defined above.

Now here is the difficult part. The Western tradition, based on Augustine, teaches that in order to truly desire God one has to be given the grace to do so by God. Without going through all the arguments the essential idea (from Paul's letter to the Romans) is that human nature is incapable of earning salvation, and that even the act of true faith must be initiated by God.

The question of whether God offers this grace to everyone is at the heart of the doctrine of predestination, which in its most common form is based on Augustine's interpretation of Paul (and later developed by Calvin, among others).

[wilbur lim]

People go to churches daily in order to pray to God to forgive their sins and coveting themselves a auspicious future.Humanity do not know genuinely whether there is hell or heaven,but since it is believed,then humanity shall abide by God's rules,to live harmoniously,etc.

[Dark Muse]

I don't believe in an afterlife, but if heaven and hell did exist and I had the choice, I would choose hell. Then I could meet most of my favorite authors, philosophers, musicians, etc. :thumbs_up

Yes I agree

In the words of Nietzsche "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing."

Of course I do not actually believe in heaven or hell, but hypothetically speaking. I do not perceive Heaven as where the good people go and Hell where the bad people go.

The way I see it is:

Heaven = Christians
Hell= Non-Christians.

My preception of Heaven and Hell is that it does not matter the deeds you do or how you live your life, only the God you worship and how you pray.

[RichardHresko]

People go to churches daily in order to pray to God to forgive their sins and coveting themselves a auspicious future.Humanity do not know genuinely whether there is hell or heaven,but since it is believed,then humanity shall abide by God's rules,to live harmoniously,etc.

When there is a large number of people involved in a faith, organization, movement, etc. it is nearly a mathematical certainty that there will be a wide range of beliefs within that group of people. Therefore there is probably little point to pick out some people who believe this or that unless it can be shown that either that is the dominant belief within the group or that it is representative of the doctrines of the group. In the case of Christianity, with well more than a billion believers alive now, the latter path makes more sense, since the former is probably not physically possible to determine.

[Whifflingpin]

"In the words of Nietzsche "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing.""

What does that say about Nietsche? Only that, like many of us, he considers evil to be more interesting than good.

[Dark Muse]

Well in my view it is not truly evil people that go to hell, but simply anyone who happens not to be Christain. Though I know Christains do tend to think that anyone who isn't Christain is is by definition evil.

[Redzeppelin]

Well in my view it is not truly evil people that go to hell, but simply anyone who happens not to be Christain. Though I know Christains do tend to think that anyone who isn't Christain is is by definition evil.

Your last statement is only true about the smallest degree of radical fringe Christians. Real Christians - the majority who have grown in maturity and understanding - acknowledge that they too - without the indwelling of Christ in our hearts - are just as evil as anybody who claims no affiliation to Christianity.

Jesus said "I am the way" not "Christianity is the way." It is not Christianity that saves anybody, but Christ who does so. There will be people in heaven who claimed nothing connected with Christianity but who knew Jesus (even if not by the name we know - cf. CS Lewis's treatment of this topic in The Last Battle, the final installment of the Narnia series).

Not all roads lead to God, but God will travel any road to find us.

Hell is a chosen destination - not a sentence.

As God's children, we must remember that it would be no easier for God to "sentence" one of His children to hell than any loving human parent to do the same. That "children" stuff isn't just pretty metaphoric stuff - God really sees us as HIS children. In fact, He loves us so much that He gave us the independence we demanded, even though He knew it would hurt us.

[Pendragon]

There is a statement in the First Pirates of the Caribbean movie I Found interesting. Barbosa in trying to explain what their curse is speaks of food turning to ashes in the mouth and no amount of drink or pleasurable company would suffice. This has been a long held version of hell, that the "burning flame" is desire, having them all but never able to take pleasure in them. A thought anyway...

God Bless

Pen

[MrJ]

As one who believes in both heaven and hell (I am of The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saints - Mormon or LDS), I believe that God, being a supreme being and a loving Heavenly Father, does all he does for our benefit, knowing all that is best for us (even when we don't see the whole picture) and everything will work our perfectly in the end because He is constantly vigilant. Everything will work out. And God does NOT send anyone to Hell if they happen to fall short. God forgives EVERYONE who will repent and come to him. AND everyone who does fall short and refuses to come to him will not want to spend eternity with him in the next life anyway. Very few people will go to Hell. God wants ALL of his children to be with him for eternity and will do EVERYTHING in his power to guide them there even if it means helping them believe after they die. There is ALWAYS hope. Life is a time to prepare to meat God. Those who leave this life unprepared will not want to. We prepare by developing our faith by doing our best to keep his commandments and being decent people (even though we know that we will fail to be perfect by far). And Hell isn't a punishment. Hell is just "someone not getting the reward of being prepared". And those who are not prepared would rather burn than stand in the presence of God. Its really an act of mercy on his part.

[MrJ]

(Note: these are my own personal views and should not be seen as a reflection of the church in which I attend)